Aquaponics Digest - Wed 01/05/00

Message 1: Sociopathic Farming/Corps?
 from Bill 

Message 2: Re: army worms
 from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta 

Message 3: New varieties for Y2K
 from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta 

Message 4: Re: army worms
 from "Minelle & Joe Paloff" 

Message 5: Re: Soil balancing/fertiliity( history): von Liebig, Howard,Albrecht 
 ,Andersen,Callahan,Kinsey, ReaMS,Skow, Walters
 from "F. Marc de Piolenc" 

Message 6: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Tue12/21/99
 from "F. Marc de Piolenc" 

Message 7: OT Re: Soil balancing/fertiliity( history): von Liebig, Howard,Albrecht 
 ,Andersen,Callahan,Kinsey, ReaMS,Skow, Walters
 from William Evans 

Message 8: Re: soil balancing( interviews)-Andersen, Wheeler, Kinsey, Skow
 from William Evans 

Message 9: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Tue 01/04/00
 from kargyle@home.com

Message10: Re: System Thoughts, Bacteria?
 from Bagelhole1

Message11: Re: New varieties for Y2K
 from MUDDTOO

Message12: Calicum
 from "Sulfercreek" 

Message13: Re: Re: System Thoughts, Bacteria?
 from "Barry Thomas" 

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| Message 1 |
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Subject: Sociopathic Farming/Corps?
From:Bill 
Date:4 Jan 00 23:10:38 PST

KevinLReed wrote:
> Have you ever developed a fish trait from eating a fish? Organic does n=
ot>
mean Holy.

>Nope, it sure don't. But reducing the world's 3.5 million cases of
pesticide poisoning sure helps the karma :)
Vik :v)
----------------------
***
I haven't actually SEEN any 3 eyed people yet, but for the
San Francisco Bay in CA, men are advise to eat only a fish
per week, max.Children and women (who need the nutrition
sometimes more) are advised the limit is one per month,
and pregnant?Forget it.Fish traits?Whatever health
authority os touting this measure, suspect SOME trait is
potentially catchy... disease and/or death.

I don't want to argue if this is metal or PCB etc.(And
many have done a good job, Bill Evans, in particular.)
Just a need to stop making mistakes as fast as we can
fund them.

May I suggest some of you also join,
the Union of Concerned Scientists.

And urbanecology at eGroups.com would love you all.
Well, maybe not all. LOL
They watch WTO, Monsanto, etc.Wish I could share this
List with them.I'll try to think of a way.Any who desire
it, offer me right to repost your post, there.
----------------------
Barry, I see... a separate system almost.WOULD show quick
results.Good idea, if pump etc are availble.
Tom O.Water temp?Fairly cool 60F?
Bill

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| Message 2 |
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Subject: Re: army worms
From:Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta 
Date:Wed, 05 Jan 2000 06:23:14 -0500

Hi Minelle,
It was developedd by Troy Biosciences and approved for most vegetables
in the last year. Beauviana bassiana is the active ingredient, a fungus
thaat makes the animals stop feeding.I buy it locally from my
agricultural products supplier.Based on a quick web search it looks
like SePro now has the exclusive marketing rights. There is a brief
description and an offer for an informational video at 
 http://www.sepro.com/horticulture/in_bloom/july1998.html. You can send
them a request for suppliers at
http://www.sepro.com/request/index_hort.html.

Botanigard is another product which contains the beauviana bassiana
fungus, possibly a slightly different strain.I read that when used in
combination with neem the effectiveness is enhanced for some types of
pests.

Adriana
> Please tell me where I can purchase the Naturalis-O.I have never heard of
> it.

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| Message 3 |
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Subject: New varieties for Y2K
From:Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta 
Date:Wed, 05 Jan 2000 07:46:34 -0500

Is anybody adding any new varieties this year?

Johnny's has a new cress called Wrinkled Crinkled Crumpled Cress which
has a nice peppery flavor and looks sort of like a curley parsley.I
grew a test pack of seeds last month and my chefs love the samples. 
It's a good candidate for adding to salad mixes and for selling alone.

I'm looking for a very crisp green lettuce variety to mix with frisee
for one of my French chefs.Paula, I believe you use Black Seeded
Simpson in your mix.Now I see that there is an "improved" variety
called Simpson Elite.Can you enlighten us on the virtues/drawbacks of
either of these or recommend another variety?

Also on my wish list is a good substitute for Red Giant Mustard.I've
developed a poison-ivy like reaction to it and would like to get it out
of my mix.I love the flavor and zip that it adds to my salad. 
Suggestions, anyone?Also if anybody has had similar experiences with
skin reactions I'd love to hear from you, either on-line or via e-mail.

Finally, I got a request for Water Pepper, something featured recently
on the Iron Chef.Can anybody recommend a source or provide culture
information?

Adriana

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| Message 4 |
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Subject: Re: army worms
From:"Minelle & Joe Paloff" 
Date:Wed, 5 Jan 2000 08:06:53 -0600

THANKS!
Minelle

----- Original Message -----
From: "Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta" 
To: aquaponics
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 5:23 AM
Subject: Re: army worms

> Hi Minelle,
> It was developedd by Troy Biosciences and approved for most vegetables
> in the last year. Beauviana bassiana is the active ingredient, a fungus
> thaat makes the animals stop feeding.I buy it locally from my
> agricultural products supplier.Based on a quick web search it looks
> like SePro now has the exclusive marketing rights. There is a brief
> description and an offer for an informational video at
>http://www.sepro.com/horticulture/in_bloom/july1998.html. You can send
> them a request for suppliers at
> http://www.sepro.com/request/index_hort.html.
>
> Botanigard is another product which contains the beauviana bassiana
> fungus, possibly a slightly different strain.I read that when used in
> combination with neem the effectiveness is enhanced for some types of
> pests.
>
> Adriana
> > Please tell me where I can purchase the Naturalis-O.I have never heard
of
> > it.
>

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| Message 5 |
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Subject: Re: Soil balancing/fertiliity( history): von Liebig, Howard,Albrecht 
 ,Andersen,Callahan,Kinsey, ReaMS,Skow, Walters
From:"F. Marc de Piolenc" 
Date:Wed, 05 Jan 2000 22:48:54 +0800

William Evans wrote:

> This misunderstanding has serious fertility consequences in modern N-P-K
> agriculture, where the overuse of nitrogen destroys calcium and
> contributes to an imbalanced calcium / magnesium ratio.

Ouch. This is the kind of absurd rhetoric that delays acceptance of
"alternative" agricultural methods. It should be obvious that, in the
context of agriculture, matter is neither created nor destroyed - it has
to go somewhere or change form. This is where most people who remember
their elementary-school science stop reading.

> The Reams school uses refractometers,
> conductivity meters and electronic scanners to formulate appropriate
> programs. Refractometers measure the all-important brix levels.
> Conductivity meters measure the availability of "growingenergy"
> released by fertilisers, and scanners are used to monitor the energy and
> compatibility of all inputs. TheReams system requires hands-on grower
> involvement, and it has proven very effective in the field. The number
> ofReams influenced consultants in Australia is growing by the month,
> particularly since Dr Andersen’s inspirationalseminar in WA earlier
> this year.

This is scientifically unsound. Ignoring the "scanner" business, which
is meaningless in this context, you simply can't derive the desired
information with the instruments mentioned. Refractometers measure only
refraction, and substances other than sugar, present in plants, cause
changes in this parameter. Conductivity only measures the availability
of free charge carriers, not "energy," whatever that is supposed to
mean. This sounds like they took a leaf right out of the Scientologists'
book and made their own equivalent of the "E-meter." The inevitable
failures will simply be imputed to "incorrect procedure" or "improper
application." This kind of nonsense is as old as humanity, but it still
works.

>Paramagnetism is a measurable, physical force - a
> low-level energy found in good, fertile soils.

Force is not energy, and paramagnetism is not a force. It is a property
of certain kinds of matter which causes the magnetic domains in the
matter to align themselves with the ambient magnetic field. One can say
that paramagnetism can give rise to a force (an extremely weak one) if
the domains are restrained from aligning themselves with the local
field. Interestingly, no mention is made of how this "force" or "energy"
- take your pick - influences the fertility of the soil. It's not
impossible that it does, but I would be much reassured if some mechanism
were adduced for this effect. The fact that no specific claim is made
makes me smell another "E-meter."

> This energy isderived
> from the rocks of volcanic origin, which comprise the base material of
> these soils.

Hmmm. Many substances have paramagnetic properties. Why volcanic rocks
in particular are mentioned eludes me.

> Rock mineral fertilsers are based upon volcanic rocks and
> much of the growth response associated with these fertilisers is coming
> from this paramagnetic quality. 

Says who, and how was this proven?

>Dr Phil Calahan is the research
> scientist who discovered the link between the infrared emissions of
> unhealthy plants and the associated attack by marauding insects. Calahan
> proved that such emissions exist and that the antennae of insects are
> specifically designed to receive these emissions (or messages). This
> technology was actually used to develop the heat-seeking missile
> (probably not quite whatCalahan had in mind).

This is absolute nonsense. The portions of the infrared spectrum used by
heat-seakers and agricultural surveys are as distant as red and violet
in the visible, and completely different technologies are needed to
perform the two very different tasks.

> Despite the far-reaching
> consequences of this earlier discovery, Dr Calahan considers that his
> new work on paramagnetism is his most important to date. His major
> breakthrough in this area relates to a $895 meter, called a PCSM,
> which accurately measures paramagnetism. 

I like the E-meter better - it's cheaper.

> The concept is so beautifully
> simple: It was volcanic rocks that formed the very best of our
> agricultural soils (many of which have now been decimated bymodern
> farming practices), and it could be volcanic rocks that recover, repair
> and revitalise those same, tiredsoils. With Calahan’s meter it is now
> possible to measure the basalt-based crusher dust at your local council
> quarry, and, if it measures up, you have an inexpensive but remarkable
> soil conditioner. Unfortunately the opportunity to benefit from this
> revelation may be limited, as the best of these resources will
> eventually be tied upby business interests.

So get your E-... errr PCSM now and rush to your local granite quarry,
because one of the most common minerals in the Earth's crust will soon
belong to Monsanto! Give me a break.

>The rules are clearly
> prescribed, the principles easily understood, and, if the system is
> correctly applied, it will alwaysperform. 

Here's the "out." If it doesn't work for you, then you failed to perform
the proper ablutions or were thinking negative thoughts.

What I like about this list is that most of the people posting to it
make testable claims and follow the scientific method in doing their
work. We need more of that, and less snake oil. When the luminaries
quoted above have been discredited, all of us will also be discredited
(by association) in the eyes of the public, so we have a strong interest
in being skeptical.

Best,
Marc de Piolenc
Autodidactics

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| Message 6 |
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Subject: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Tue12/21/99
From:"F. Marc de Piolenc" 
Date:Wed, 05 Jan 2000 22:49:06 +0800

steve spring wrote:
> 
> Don't you love the government. And...we pay these people good money to come up
> with stupid solutions.
> 
> SS
> 
> KevinLReed wrote:
> 
> > GE presents the possibility of eliminating pesticides where "organic" ( as
> > the government defines it) does not. I can't call my lettuce organic because
> > it is a flotation system even though it is fertilized by fish effluent run
> > though an bacterial biofilter, while I can call the tomatoes organic because
> > the crushed coral in my growbed (biofilter) is a kind of soil.

I have two problems with this. One is that labeling rules violate free
speech provisions of the US and many State constitutions. The other -
which in my mind is secondary - is the truth of the matter. Not that I
don't care about the truth. It's just that even people who are wrong
have the right to claim (on their own responsibility, and at the risk of
being embarrassed later) that they are right. And who among us has not
made a mistake at one time? Why, I've even known bureau-rats to make
mistakes...

Marc de Piolenc

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| Message 7 |
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Subject: OT Re: Soil balancing/fertiliity( history): von Liebig, Howard,Albrecht 
 ,Andersen,Callahan,Kinsey, ReaMS,Skow, Walters
From:William Evans 
Date:Wed, 05 Jan 2000 08:20:35 -0800

> William Evans wrote:
> 
> > This misunderstanding has serious fertility consequences in modern N-P-K
> > agriculture, where the overuse of nitrogen destroys calcium and
> > contributes to an imbalanced calcium / magnesium ratio.
> 
 Ouch. This is the kind of absurd rhetoric that delays acceptance of
 "alternative" agricultural methods.
 
No Marc, I think you are judging the " book" for it's cover. Realize
that you're at a disadvantage just reading an/aexcerpt/synopsis. What
the author meant was that excess N accompanied by enuf moisture(
rainfall)causes Ca to leachout of the soil profile. That's all.
 The author didnt intend for the reader to think that Ca was
disappearing .... totally. Just that N mobilizes it in the soil.
 "..... matter is neither created nor destroyed 
> > The Reams school uses refractometers,
> > conductivity meters and electronic scanners to formulate appropriate
> > programs. Refractometers measure the all-important brix levels.
> > Conductivity meters measure the availability of "growingenergy"
> > released by fertilisers, and scanners are used to monitor the energy and
> > compatibility of all inputs. TheReams system requires hands-on grower
> > involvement, and it has proven very effective in the field. The number
> > ofReams influenced consultants in Australia is growing by the month,
> > particularly since Dr Andersen’s inspirationalseminar in WA earlier
> > this year.
> 
> This is scientifically unsound....but it still
> works.
 
That's my understanding as well. I dont understand Biodynamics ...but
the reports are that it can work very well if applied correctly.I dont
study/practice it.Mind you BD isnt all hocuspocus, lot of conventional
mainstream organic method ties in, I think. But just because I dont
undersatand it at this time ,I wont dismiss it. To much to absorb on the
mainstream side of the library.
> 
> >Paramagnetism is a measurable, physical force - a
> > low-level energy found in good, fertile soils.
> 
> Force is not energy, and paramagnetism is not a force. 
 
What I think the author is saying is that paramagnetism canaffect
plant growth. In that sense it is a force.

> > This energy isderived
> > from the rocks of volcanic origin, which comprise the base material of
> > these soils.
> 
> Hmmm. Many substances have paramagnetic properties. Why volcanic rocks
> in particular are mentioned eludes me.
 Just pointing out that volcanic rocks are high on the list.
 Oxygen is also highly paramagnetic
> 
> > Rock mineral fertilsers are based upon volcanic rocks and
> > much of the growth response associated with these fertilisers is coming
> > from this paramagnetic quality.
> 
> Says who, and how was this proven? 
You ask a good question... I think what your curious about is 
...whether changes in growth/yield/mineral-nutrient analysis of a crop
in question,,,
are attributed quantitatively to the mineral addition alone?
the increased " energy" captured by the paramagnetic qualities of the
mineral addition?
Or a combination of the two.

Lots of trials have been done w/ lots of different rock powders. Find a
quarry mining basalt/ lava/ granite and ask forinfo. If there sellinga
rock powder/then they probably have some good anecdotal info. At this
time , I cant cite hard and fast double blind research, doesnt mean its
not occuring tho..
 Personally Ive seen evidence of its benefits, but wouldnt be able to
tell you it was from paramagnetic
qualities of the rock powder I used, or just the mineral addition . My
experience was w/ a row of garlic. I applied the powder to half the row.
That half had a stronger root system as evidenced by a summer wilt. I
forgot to water near the end of the growing season. The half that
didn'treceive the rock dust died back. The other half of the row
withstood the drought standing upright and green. The plants/ bulbs were
bigger w/ thepowder.

> >Dr Phil Calahan is the research
> > scientist who discovered the link between the infrared emissions of
> > unhealthy plants and the associated attack by marauding insects. Calahan
> > proved that such emissions exist and that the antennae of insects are
> > specifically designed to receive these emissions (or messages). This
> > technology was actually used to develop the heat-seeking missile
> > (probably not quite whatCalahan had in mind).
> 
> This is absolute nonsense.
 Then why is it patented? 
> 
> What I like about this list is that most of the people posting to it
> make testable claims and follow the scientific method in doing their
> work. We need more of that, and less snake oil. When the luminaries
> quoted above have been discredited, all of us will also be discredited
> (by association) in the eyes of the public, so we have a strong interest
> in being skeptical.
 Be skeptical
 Not judgemental, you just might be discredited when its found that you
didnt prove/disprove it for 
yourself,beforedenouncing it.

 My apologies to the list for this OT talk. It does relate tho- we want
to grow stuff- Some is just not
good for a strict aquaponics application. Like deep rooted trees for
instance. 
bill evans

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| Message 8 |
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Subject: Re: soil balancing( interviews)-Andersen, Wheeler, Kinsey, Skow
From:William Evans 
Date:Wed, 05 Jan 2000 08:46:52 -0800

KevinLReed wrote:
> 
> Aloha William,
> These are all very good. I will send you an out line of our system so you
> can make any specific reality based suggestions, reality being what I can do
> today...

 I look forward to it.
 

Our oil is so cheap
> that biodigestor material is not of any use to us unless combined with
> hydrogen fuel cell and hydrocarbon cracking technologies. 

 Sorry, Im not well versed w/ biodigestors.
 Couldnt the material feeding same, be composted as well/ in addition
to? Or is there excess organics that have to be disposed of / CAN'Tbe
composted?
billevans

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| Message 9 |
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Subject: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Tue 01/04/00
From:kargyle@home.com
Date:Wed, 05 Jan 2000 09:53:05 -0700

Unsubscribe please

aquaponics-digest-request@townsqr.com wrote:
> 
> Message 1: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Tue12/21/99
>from "KevinLReed" 
> 
> Message 2: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Tue12/21/99
>from Vik Olliver 
> 
> Message 3: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Tue12/21/99
>from "KevinLReed" 
> 
> Message 4: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Tue12/21/99
>from Vik Olliver 
> 
> Message 5: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Tue12/21/99
>from wills/nachreiner 
> 
> Message 6: GE eliminates pesticides??? No way
>from William Evans 
> 
> Message 7: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Tue12/21/99
>from Marc & Marcy 
> 
> Message 8: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Tue12/21/99
>from steve spring 
> 
> Message 9: Soil balancing/fertiliity( history): von Liebig, Howard,Albrecht
>,Andersen,Callahan,Kinsey, ReaMS,Skow, Walters
>from William Evans 
> 
> Message10: soil balancing( interviews)-Andersen, Wheeler, Kinsey, Skow
>from William Evans 
> 
> Message11: System Thoughts, Bacteria?
>from Bill 
> 
> Message12: Re: army worms
>from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta 
> 
> Message13: Re: GE eliminates pesticides??? No way
>from Marc & Marcy 
> 
> Message14: Re: soil balancing( interviews)-Andersen, Wheeler, Kinsey, Skow
>from "KevinLReed" 
> 
> Message15: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Tue12/21/99
>from "KevinLReed" 
> 
> Message16: Re: System Thoughts, Bacteria?
>from "Barry Thomas" 
> 
> Message17: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Tue12/21/99
>from "Barry Thomas" 
> 
> Message18: Re: army worms
>from "Minelle & Joe Paloff" 
> 
> Message19: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Tue12/21/99
>from "KevinLReed" 
> 
> .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
> | Message 1 |
> '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
> Subject: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Tue12/21/99
> From:"KevinLReed" 
> Date:Mon, 3 Jan 2000 22:03:47 +0200
> 
> Have you ever developed a fish trait from eating a fish? Organic does not
> mean Holy.
> Kevin
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "wills/nachreiner" 
> To: aquaponics
> Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 7:02 PM
> Subject: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Tue 12/21/99
> 
> > I have been behind in my reading and then was surprised how long it took
> > the list to respond to what I considered the core of the Monsanto/Ge
> > problem.Finally you got there.First, we don't know what the stuff will
> > do.We don't know how pests will evolve.We don't know how genes will
> > transfer across species.We don't know how human's will react.We don't
> > know how butterfly's and other benign animals will be impacted.Its all
> > too much too fast with no forethought or research.Second, Monsanto has
> > been at the forefront of taking away our choice.They fought labeling,
> > they lobbied for government approval.They fought to make crazy laws that
> > prevent us from labeling our products as rBGH free in many states and in
> > others require us to make a false disclaimer.That is, at Monsanto's
> > urging we are forced to state that " There is no significant difference
> > between milk from treated and untreated cows", when we know for a fact
> that
> > treating cows with synthetic growth hormones increases the level of the
> > hormone and increases the level of insulin like growth factor and raises
> > the likelihood that milk will contain antibiotics to offset the tendency
> > for treated cows to have more disease, abortions and twinning.
> >I confess that after the threats and political pressures that Monsanto
> > put on us and other companies that wanted to put old fashioned products on
> > the shelves, I take great delight in their struggles.Good riddance and
> > may the same happen to their successors and any other companies that try
> to
> > thrust this stuff down the world's throats.
> >
> > O.K. so I'm a bit crazed about this.However, all our organic farmers are
> > making a good living and we badly need more organic milk to meet the huge
> > demand.
> >
> > Sorry for the deviation from the purpose of the list. If you make me
> > justify it I can come up with a logical connection.A new day is dawning
> > and we're still here.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> 
> .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
> | Message 2 |
> '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
> Subject: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Tue12/21/99
> From:Vik Olliver 
> Date:Tue, 04 Jan 2000 22:00:07 +1200
> 
> KevinLReed wrote:
> >
> > Have you ever developed a fish trait from eating a fish? Organic does not
> > mean Holy.
> 
> Nope, it sure don't. But reducing the world's 3.5 million cases of
> pesticide poisoning sure helps the karma :)
> 
> Vik :v)
> --
> A member of The Olliver Family http://olliver.penguinpowered.com
> 
> .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
> | Message 3 |
> '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
> Subject: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Tue12/21/99
> From:"KevinLReed" 
> Date:Tue, 4 Jan 2000 00:23:37 +0200
> 
> GE presents the possibility of eliminating pesticides where "organic" ( as
> the government defines it) does not. I can't call my lettuce organic because
> it is a flotation system even though it is fertilized by fish effluent run
> though an bacterial biofilter, while I can call the tomatoes organic because
> the crushed coral in my growbed (biofilter) is a kind of soil.
> Round and round she goes.
> Kevin
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Vik Olliver" 
> To: aquaponics
> Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2000 12:00 PM
> Subject: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Tue 12/21/99
> 
> > KevinLReed wrote:
> > >
> > > Have you ever developed a fish trait from eating a fish? Organic does
> not
> > > mean Holy.
> >
> > Nope, it sure don't. But reducing the world's 3.5 million cases of
> > pesticide poisoning sure helps the karma :)
> >
> > Vik :v)
> > --
> > A member of The Olliver Family http://olliver.penguinpowered.com
> >
> 
> .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
> | Message 4 |
> '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
> Subject: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Tue12/21/99
> From:Vik Olliver 
> Date:Wed, 05 Jan 2000 00:03:46 +1200
> 
> KevinLReed wrote:
> >
> > GE presents the possibility of eliminating pesticides where "organic" ( as
> > the government defines it) does not. I can't call my lettuce organic because
> > it is a flotation system even though it is fertilized by fish effluent run
> > though an bacterial biofilter, while I can call the tomatoes organic because
> > the crushed coral in my growbed (biofilter) is a kind of soil.
> > Round and round she goes.
> 
> Er, not quite. GE presents the possibilty of making plants that generate
> their own pesticides. However, this diverts parts of the plant's
> resources into making toxins that could otherwise have gone to making
> the plant outgrow weeds. So now we need to add more herbicides to get a
> lower yeild of product.
> 
> As you say, "Round and round she goes."
> 
> Vik :v)
> --
> A member of The Olliver Family http://olliver.penguinpowered.com
> 
> .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
> | Message 5 |
> '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
> Subject: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Tue12/21/99
> From:wills/nachreiner 
> Date:Tue, 04 Jan 2000 09:28:53 -0600
> 
> At 12:23 AM 1/4/2000 +0200, you wrote:
> >GE presents the possibility of eliminating pesticides where "organic" ( as
> >the government defines it) does not. I can't call my lettuce organic because
> >it is a flotation system even though it is fertilized by fish effluent run
> >though an bacterial biofilter, while I can call the tomatoes organic because
> >the crushed coral in my growbed (biofilter) is a kind of soil.
> >Round and round she goes.
> >Kevin
> 
> My concern is with individual's choice.If we are kept from getting
> information about the products we buy or are forced to provide
> misinformation, then we have lost our right to choose.If my crops become
> genetically altered because of drift from neighbor's farms, I have lost the
> ability to choose and the right to provide my customers with what they
> want.Again the customers have lost the option of avoiding genetic
> engineering.And organic farmers fear that their most valuable natural
> predators, insects, birds and bT, will become more scarce and/or less
> effective as a result of their neighbor's using genetically altered
> materials.In most parts of the US, rBGH-free milk is simply not available
> except as relatively expensive organic milk.Introducing genetically
> altered products has potentially large impacts on those who do not choose
> to use or consume those products. Are the farmers using the products or
> Monsanto ready to compensate others for the lost exports, the contamination
> of other crops and the lost consumer choices?If not they should back off
> until they can know how to control the technology.
> 
> NUF said.
> 
> With respect to the aquaponics and organics, ie back on task, do you know
> what the logic for the soil requirement is?Can this group find productive
> ways to address the issue in the American Organic Standards,the National
> organic standards, IFOAM, the Organic trade association or the individual
> certifying agencies?If there is no logical reason why crops need to be
> raised in soil then it should be possible to get the rule changed to
> include your lettuce and other hydroponic crops. Or is the concern about
> the quality of the water?Do similar problems occur with the fish?"Wild
> animals" are excluded from organics.There has been a great debate about
> calling ocean fish organic.Does this also apply to farm raised fish?If
> we solve these problems we may be able to add substantial value to our
> products.
> 
> Box185 Plain,Wi 53577
> (608) 546-2712
> 
> .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
> | Message 6 |
> '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
> Subject: GE eliminates pesticides??? No way
> From:William Evans 
> Date:Tue, 04 Jan 2000 07:50:37 -0800
> 
> KevinLReed wrote:
> >
> > GE presents the possibility of eliminating pesticides where "organic" ( as
> > the government defines it) does not.
>Not true. There are organic folks( and evn conventional) that have no
> need for pesticides as they have balanced their soil ( or got lucky w/
> naturally fertile soil- this doesnt last if pulling off continuous
> crops)
>Strong healthy plants( for the most part) are not attractive to plant
> pests...
> DOnt ask me to define soil balancing, as this takes years of study.
> Study Albrecht or Kinsey..... These folks were/are ahead of their
> time... Plenty of accounts regarding pest pressure being much greater in
> poor soils.
> billevans
> 
> .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
> | Message 7 |
> '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
> Subject: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Tue12/21/99
> From:Marc & Marcy 
> Date:Tue, 04 Jan 2000 10:07:43 -0700
> 
> ..snip..
> >
> > GE presents the possibility of eliminating pesticides where "organic" ( as
> > the government defines it) does not.
> ..snip..
> 
> Any societal cure has pro's and con's, pluses and minuses,
> various factors that can be weighed as to benefit vs
> drawbacks.
> 
> There are credible sources for actual problems with GE.
> 
> The GE debate is almost silly since the proponents of GE are
> so extreme they will admit to ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM with GE
> in spite of these problems.
> 
> This is not debate, it is intellectual dishonesty.
> 
> ANY expert can give pro's and con's about a subject.
> 
> Try it. Ask a GE fanatic for pro's and con's. They can't do
> it. They will accuse you of being antisocial and wanting to
> hurt children. They will act hurt since you had the mean
> spiritedness to challenge them. You can expect paranoia and
> accusations of you attacking them personally. You still won
> get pro's and con's.
> 
> GE proponents sound like marketing executives with only
> positives and spin control from them. If you step back and
> listen to a GE supporter they are doing control talk - not a
> search for truth.
> 
> To me they are not to be trusted as a balanced and credible
> source of GE information. They are out to sell GE and will
> not examine it truthfully.
> 
> Marc S. Nameth
> 
> .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
> | Message 8 |
> '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
> Subject: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Tue12/21/99
> From:steve spring 
> Date:Tue, 04 Jan 2000 11:26:12 -0800
> 
> Don't you love the government. And...we pay these people good money to come up
> with stupid solutions.
> 
> SS
> 
> KevinLReed wrote:
> 
> > GE presents the possibility of eliminating pesticides where "organic" ( as
> > the government defines it) does not. I can't call my lettuce organic because
> > it is a flotation system even though it is fertilized by fish effluent run
> > though an bacterial biofilter, while I can call the tomatoes organic because
> > the crushed coral in my growbed (biofilter) is a kind of soil.
> > Round and round she goes.
> > Kevin
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Vik Olliver" 
> > To: aquaponics
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2000 12:00 PM
> > Subject: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Tue 12/21/99
> >
> > > KevinLReed wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Have you ever developed a fish trait from eating a fish? Organic does
> > not
> > > > mean Holy.
> > >
> > > Nope, it sure don't. But reducing the world's 3.5 million cases of
> > > pesticide poisoning sure helps the karma :)
> > >
> > > Vik :v)
> > > --
> > > A member of The Olliver Family http://olliver.penguinpowered.com
> > >
> 
> .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
> | Message 9 |
> '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
> Subject: Soil balancing/fertiliity( history): von Liebig, Howard,Albrecht
>,Andersen,Callahan,Kinsey, ReaMS,Skow, Walters
> From:William Evans 
> Date:Tue, 04 Jan 2000 11:23:34 -0800
> 
> courtesy of
> http://www.nutri-tech.com.au/Articles/News3.htm#_TOC41-INFOOT
> 
> IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF ALBRECHT
> 
> CHARTING THE NEW AGRICULTURE
> 
>A quiet revolution has begun in Australian agriculture.
> Farmers and growers themselves have seized the initiativeand appear to
> be laying the foundations for a sustainable, fertility-centred
> alternative. The new mood was graphically illustrated in South Australia
> in mid July, where the Central South East Soil Association (a private
> farmers group) presented a four-day lecture course by visiting American
> fertility expert, Neal Kinsey. NealKinsey, author of "Hands on
> Agronomy", has over twenty years of field experience in 35 countries and
> is perhapsthe world’s leading proponent of a soil balancing approach,
> called the Albrecht system. The lecture seminar, attended by 250
> farmers, consultants and agronomists, was Kinsey’s second sell-out
> Australian seminar, with a third scheduled for NSW later this year. A
> recent five-day course in WA by US eco-consultant, Arden Andersen, and
> several other planned visits by globe-trotting consultants later this
> year, are furher evidence of this trend.
>Farmers attending the SA course accounted for over
> 100,000 hectares of varied crops, and the majority (over 80%) were
> conventional growers seeking answers.There are several popular
> approaches in the eco-farming arena, but all of them acknowledge a
> considerable debt to "the father of contemporary soil science", Dr
> William Albrecht. In a world where consumer spending onnatural
> medicine, therapy and vitamins can account for more than that spent on
> conventional medicine, and at atime where a market-driven economy
> demands better quality produce and reduced toxic inputs, Albrecht’s
> central contention that "soil nutrition is the key to human nutrition",
> has become profoundly relevant.
> 
>As the century draws to a close, the awareness of a need
> for change has snowballed to the extent thatsustainability is now an
> issue beyond politically-correct environmental consciousness. It has now
> become an economic imperative.
> 
>In the following article, Graeme Sait from Queensland
> company, Nutri-Tech Solutions P/L, backgroundsAlbrecht’s pivotal role
> in the new agriculture.
> 
>THE POWER OF ONE MISTAKE
> 
>In the mid 19th century, German chemist, Justus von
> Liebig, later dubbed "the father of chemical agriculture",analysed the
> ashes of a plant and deduced that, as the major elements present were
> nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium (The N-P-K of modern agriculture),
> then these must be the principle elements required for plantgrowth.
> Before von Liebig’s discovery it was believed that humus was the major
> source of nourishment for plantgrowth. Von Liebig attacked the humus
> theory vehemently and was able to successfully convince European
> academics that his simplistic three-element nutrition plan was the "one
> true way" for any rational scientific community. Von Liebig’s "Chemistry
> in its Application to Agriculture" was to have such an impact that it
> stillstands as the turning point, where scientific agriculture
> jettisoned the concept of working with natural processesand cycles, in
> favour of planned intervention and man-made solutions. Big business, as
> could be expected, wasnever far from the state-of-play.
> 
>For centuries farmers had controlled their own destiny,
> nursing and nourishing their soils with techniques oftime-honoured
> tradition. In what seemed a stroke of von Leibig’s pen, that situation
> changed forever. The principle inputs for food production were now to be
> purchased from outside the farm gate. Nitrate beds from Chile, potash
> mines from Germany and American phosphate deposits were sources for the
> initial N-P-K rush, but in a few shortyears chemical companies had
> begun to process and synthesise "the big three". The profits in
> providing these new "essential" commodities, on a world stage, were
> stupendous. It was no surprise that, when a humbled von Leibig announced
> ten years later that he had made a huge mistake, his confession was
> completely ignored. Von Liebig had realised that a large part of the
> initial response to N-P-K fertilising was actually derived from the
> release of nutrients from the gradual breakdown of the humus component
> of the soil. An oversupply of nitrogen was triggering a microbe feeding
> frenzy, and the overstimulated organisms were devouring organic carbon.
> The N-P-K approach was actually mining the humus from the soil. Von
> Liebig had realised that the N-P-K goldrush was a fool’s paradise, which
> could not be sustained. However, the wheels of big business were oiled
> and rolling, and nothing was going to stop them. Von Liebig’s new
> findings vanished without trace. For all intents and purposes, that
> juggernaut has continued unabated for one and a half centuries since von
> Liebig’s mistake.
> 
>POCKETS OF RESISTANCE
> 
>There have been some brief flourishes from resistance
> movements during this century. In 1930, Englishman SirAlbert Howard
> established a link between soil nutrition and plant, animal & human
> disease. Sir Albert is generally regarded as the founder of the
> organic movement, but his contention that humus fertilisation increased
> pest and disease resistance, did not capture the imagination of his
> peers. At the time, the new-generation, artificial nitrogen and chemical
> pesticides, appeared to be problem-solvers beyond compare, promising
> maximum results with minimum effort. The fast-food, "crop-in-a-bag"
> mentality had arrived.
> 
>After the war dozens of ammonia factories, developed to
> manufacture explosives, were motivated to find newmarkets for their
> surpluses. Swiss chemist, Paul Muller, had donated his chemical
> creation, DDT, to the Allies tohelp control fleas and lice on the
> soldiers, and after the Allied victory in 1945, cheap nitrogen, DDT (and
> a dozenlookalikes) became standard issue for the majority of Western
> agriculture.
> 
>The other significant voice in the wilderness was from
> brilliant American soil scientist Dr William Albrecht, chairman of the
> Department of Soils at the University of Missouri. It is Albrecht’s
> work, which, althoughsuccessfully stifled at the time, has, in the
> last decade of this century, become a focal point for a sustainable
> approach to agriculture, dubbed "eco-farming" by American publisher
> Charles Walters (publisher of Acres USA).
> 
>THE ALBRECHT HERITAGE
> 
>Dr William Albrecht was above all a student of nature,
> and perhaps his greatest credential related to the fact thathis system
> worked successfully with, rather than against, nature. As a scientist,
> writer and educator, Albrecht worked tirelessly to empower the farmer
> with the knowledge required to increase "real" fertility via soil
> balanceand appropriate nutrition. Unlike earlier resistance fighters
> like Austrian Rudolf Steiner, Albrecht’s approachremained practical
> and accessible. While Steiner philosophised about cosmic forces and
> spiritual influences in agriculture (alienating more than he converted),
> Albrecht set about delineating actual measurable parameters of
> fertility. Through a comprehensive study of clay chemistry, he concluded
> that the smallest particle of the soil -the clay colloid - stored
> positively charged nutrients called cations, which attached to the
> colloid magnetically. These cations were exchanged with hydrogen by
> plants seeking nutrition. The relative cation storage capacity of a soil
> varied depending upon the clay content of the soil - a light, sandy soil
> storing less than a heavier clay soil. This relative storage capacity
> was called cation exchange capacity (CEC). As is often the case, no
> discovery occurs in a vacuum. Albrecht’s initial work was inspired by
> earlier European research in clay chemistry. However, his great personal
> breakthrough related to his identification of the exact ratios of each
> cation required in any given soil to achieve maximum fertility and
> associated plant health. The major cations include calcium, magnesium,
> potassium, sodium and hydrogen.
> 
>Albrecht and his research team devised an experiment
> where clay colloids were spun in a machine at a speedfast enough to
> dislodge the attached cations. The research team collected hundreds of
> kilos of naked claycolloids, located them in numerous research plots
> and began the painstaking task of adding the cations in
> different ratios and evaluating the related plant growth response. In
> this manner, Albrecht was able to ascertain the exact ratios of calcium,
> magnesium, potassium and sodium required for maximum plant growth and
> vitality. The magnitude of his discovery did not escape him when he
> commented that the Missouri University
> research plots located at Sanborn fields represented "a few small acres
> which have contributed more to the
>understanding of plant growth than any area on the planet."
> 
>The enormous significance of Albrecht’s breakthrough can
> only be fully understood within the context of his complete approach.
> Albrecht’s system centres around the primacy of calcium as the most
> important nutrient forhealthy plant growth. Lime is viewed as a major
> fertilliser contributing to both quantity and quality of produce. The
> criteria for liming recommendations within conventional agriculture has
> been soil pH levels (If pH is low, then limeis recommended),
> 
> but Albrecht insisted that, as magnesium, sodium and potassium can
> actually have moreeffect on raising pH than calcium, then the
> conventional pH approach could never accurately assess calcium
> requirements for maximum fertility.
> 
> This misunderstanding has serious fertility consequences in modern N-P-K
> agriculture, where the overuse of nitrogen destroys calcium and
> contributes to an imbalanced calcium / magnesium ratio. Magnesium has
> 1.4 times more power to increase soil pH than calcium, so using the pH
> criteria for liming requirements in high magnesium soils is doomed to
> failure. The majority of Australian soillaboratories still use the
> unreliable and inaccurate pH criteria to determine calcium requirements.
> Albrecht established his own soil laboratory in the US, which measured
> cation exchange capacity and specified basesaturation percentages (the
> cation ratios he had discovered, which determine fertility). The
> laboratory he established 40 years ago, Brookside Laboratories,
> continues to flourish today, with consultants covering most of the
> globe, including Australia.
> 
> MAJOR INFLUENCES IN THE "NEW
> AGRICULTURE"
> 
>The most powerful modern influence in the development of
> sustainable agriculture is indisputably Charles Walters Jnr. Walters,
> editor and publisher of Acres USA, was responsible for the resurrection
> and publication ofAlbrecht’s entire works in a three book series
> called " The Albrecht Papers". Walters has fused thephilosophies of the
> most productive and innovative in sustainable agriculture and
> successfully promoted them
>under one umbrella he called "Eco-Farming". He has published major
> works by a variety of leading consultants
>and practitioners and his annual three-day Acres Conference is a
> pilgrimage for farmers and consultants
>throughout the world.
> 
>There are three major directions or influences, which are
> regarded as integral components of Eco-Farming:
> 
>The Reams Approach
> 
>Dr Carey Reams was a dynamic and unconventional theorist,
> teacher and consultant who developed a unique approach to fertility and
> plant growth. His legacy is continued by two of the finest living Eco
> consultants, DrArden Andersen and Dr Dan Skow. The Reams approach
> involves building plant-health and associated pestand disease
> resistance by increasing plant sugar levels (brix). Like Albrecht, Reams
> contended that calcium was the "king of nutrients", and the soil
> balancing goals of these two approaches are essentially similar. The
> main difference lies in the fertility monitoring technique developed by
> Reams and his adherents. The Reams school uses refractometers,
> conductivity meters and electronic scanners to formulate appropriate
> programs. Refractometers measure the all-important brix levels.
> Conductivity meters measure the availability of "growingenergy"
> released by fertilisers, and scanners are used to monitor the energy and
> compatibility of all inputs. TheReams system requires hands-on grower
> involvement, and it has proven very effective in the field. The number
> ofReams influenced consultants in Australia is growing by the month,
> particularly since Dr Andersen’s inspirationalseminar in WA earlier
> this year.
> 
>PHIL CALAHAN’S PARAMAGNETISM
> 
>Paramagnetism is a measurable, physical force - a
> low-level energy found in good, fertile soils. This energy isderived
> from the rocks of volcanic origin, which comprise the base material of
> these soils. Rock mineral fertilsers are based upon volcanic rocks and
> much of the growth response associated with these fertilisers is coming
> from this paramagnetic quality. Dr Phil Calahan is the research
> scientist who discovered the link between the infrared emissions of
> unhealthy plants and the associated attack by marauding insects. Calahan
> proved that such emissions exist and that the antennae of insects are
> specifically designed to receive these emissions (or messages). This
> technology was actually used to develop the heat-seeking missile
> (probably not quite whatCalahan had in mind). Despite the far-reaching
> consequences of this earlier discovery, Dr Calahan considers that his
> new work on paramagnetism is his most important to date. His major
> breakthrough in this area relates to a $895 meter, called a PCSM,
> which accurately measures paramagnetism. The concept is so beautifully
> simple: It was volcanic rocks that formed the very best of our
> agricultural soils (many of which have now been decimated bymodern
> farming practices), and it could be volcanic rocks that recover, repair
> and revitalise those same, tiredsoils. With Calahan’s meter it is now
> possible to measure the basalt-based crusher dust at your local council
> quarry, and, if it measures up, you have an inexpensive but remarkable
> soil conditioner. Unfortunately the opportunity to benefit from this
> revelation may be limited, as the best of these resources will
> eventually be tied upby business interests.
> 
>THE ALBRECHT APPROACH
> 
>The soil test is the major weapon in this approach.
> Albrecht’s own laboratory, Brookside, has developed an international
> network of trained consultants. Neal Kinsey is a trained Brookside
> consultant, who now uses PerryLaboratories (a Brookside off-shoot)
> located in his native state. There are a number of Brookside consultants
> working throughout the Eastern States of Australia, most of whom have
> been trained by Tony De Vere fromQueensland. The Pro-Ag group, working
> in South Australia and Victoria, is also using the Perry Soil Lab, as
> areseveral private consultants. Queensland-based Nutri-Tech Solutions
> P/L are working throughout Australia, using Brookside tests and
> combining several other influences in an approach called Soil Therapy™.
> Nutri-Tech Solutions also produce a range of eco-fertilisers and promote
> a "best of both worlds" approach they term "FusionFarming™".
> 
>The Albrecht approach will remain a dominant force in the
> new agriculture, simply because it works. The rules are clearly
> prescribed, the principles easily understood, and, if the system is
> correctly applied, it will alwaysperform. It is precisely this
> reliability that has propelled the system to the crest of this new wave.
> Albrecht proposed a single central maxim: "Feed the soil, and the soil
> will feed the plant". It is of considerable importance, considering our
> nutritionally deficient diets, that these "well-fed plants" will also
> provide "real food" for mankind.
> 
> .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
> | Message 10|
> '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
> Subject: soil balancing( interviews)-Andersen, Wheeler, Kinsey, Skow
> From:William Evans 
> Date:Tue, 04 Jan 2000 11:56:41 -0800
> 
> http://www.nutri-tech.com.au/Interviews/Interviews.htm
> 
> .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
> | Message 11|
> '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
> Subject: System Thoughts, Bacteria?
> From:Bill 
> Date:4 Jan 00 13:09:21 PST
> 
> >I suggest you run the pump continuously. =
> 
> *Well, That's the other extreme, tho' is used sometimes.
> A compromise?
> 
> >So you have vegetables in addition to the water hyacinth? I'm not
> sure there's enough nutrient around for both (I believe the
> hyacinth is a _very_ hungry plant).
> *As I have read, unless going for waste remeadiation and
> detoxicant with incineration of the hyacinth, it serves no
> purpose, save perhaps cattle feed?.It's just hungry,
> and cleans water.
> 
> >start slowly).
> *I want this applied to pump rate changes too.
> 10% (of maximum possible) a week change.
> Sounds like you're at 1/60th now, ~ 2%.
> Try 10%, or 6 min?Say 6,1 minute periods per hour,
> due to your non moisture retentive media... or some combo?
> 
> >One other thing that might be worth trying is to connect a couple of
> your bottle stacks to a seperate pump and tank to make a small hydro
> system.
> *This does peform also as a backup pump... leave the
> 1 min/hr you have now on as is, as a failsafe.
> 
> >Remember, the idea is not to create something self-sustaining but that
> generates an excess - your crop.Barry
> *No inputs, entropy.
>Bill
> 
> > an 8' x 8"diameter roll of hay, in mesh, sunk at the bottom on one side=
> =2E
> This> was Adriana's idea to keep the algae out, and it has worked well, =
> 
> *There's a guy who raises Tilapia on "green water."Limit is one thing. =
>Why
> keep it out?Or is it meant to 'trap' it, for easier feeding and remove =
> it
> from the plants containers?Also, you are at a max diameter probably, to=
> 
> avoid septic conditions within the bale, unless water flow is directed we=
> ll
> toward it, to replace O2.
> 
> >"long thin, unnatural" broccoli sprouts-- long, spindly seedlings or pla=
> nts
> can mean there's inadequate light, or a particular spectrum of the light =
> it
> needs is inadequate.
> *Also lack of a breeze, but go for the light.The breeze will assist in
> destratifying hot summer wether.the warm upper air may actually be an a=
> ssist
> now.Re-invent the earth, (minus the yellow snow.) :>)
> ---------------------
> >>Does red on the edge of fin edges indicate a problem?My brood stock
> have>this and I'm not sure what to do about it.Any advice ?
> >>Jay Myers
> 
> >inflamed (red) fins and tails are indicative
> of several possible problems.Have you contacted your supplier?
> 
> *If not natural to your breed, is likely 'bacterial' in nature,
> from aquarium experience.Act soonest!Take fish and water
> samples.MAYBE, separate a dozen, isolate, try antibiotics
> for hemmoragic septicemia.Got a small sterile aquarium?
> Bill
> 
> ____________________________________________________________________
> Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm=
> ail.netscape.com.
> 
> .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
> | Message 12|
> '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
> Subject: Re: army worms
> From:Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta 
> Date:Tue, 04 Jan 2000 18:28:05 -0500
> 
> Alon,
> 
> I was able to get armyworms under control with Naturalis-O, various
> strains of BT didn't do a thing to them.
> 
> Adriana
> 
> "M. Brody" wrote:
> >
> > Aqua-friends:
> > Does anyone know how to control army worms in organic strawberries?
> > [natural predators, or which BT is most effective?]
> > Which sprays could be used to kill them without harming other natural
> > predators like spider mites?
> > Thanks for your help,
> > Alon Zimmerman
> 
> .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
> | Message 13|
> '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
> Subject: Re: GE eliminates pesticides??? No way
> From:Marc & Marcy 
> Date:Tue, 04 Jan 2000 18:05:10 -0700
> 
> Thanks for your input and the great links in your other two
> posts Bill!It is so refreshing and encouraging to hear
> from people who are looking at the whole picture.I'm
> anxious to learn more about soil balancing.We had a guy
> visit a few weeks ago who's looking for property in our area
> and was talking to us about our pastured poultry and he also
> mentioned the soil balancing.Sometimes we get to thinking
> we're the only one who's not following the conventional
> route of the big chemical companies without question, so
> it's like a breath of fresh air and gives us a boost of
> energy when we talk to others who are looking at more than
> just today's yields and profits (or lack thereof).
> 
> M&M
> 
> William Evans wrote:
> >Strong healthy plants( for the most part) are not attractive to plant
> > pests...
> > DOnt ask me to define soil balancing, as this takes years of study.
> > Study Albrecht or Kinsey..... These folks were/are ahead of their
> > time... Plenty of accounts regarding pest pressure being much greater in
> > poor soils.
> > billevans
> 
> .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
> | Message 14|
> '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
> Subject: Re: soil balancing( interviews)-Andersen, Wheeler, Kinsey, Skow
> From:"KevinLReed" 
> Date:Tue, 4 Jan 2000 15:17:18 +0200
> 
> Aloha William,
> These are all very good. I will send you an out line of our system so you
> can make any specific reality based suggestions, reality being what I can do
> today... I want to use bioponic grow houses as an Agricultural Risk
> Management tool to control land for something along the lines of near
> permaculture forestry, an alley crop set up for tropical hardwoods. The grow
> house provides 98% risk free crop growth and income to decrease the risk of
> long term hardwood crops that have no crop insurance or other device to
> insure investors of a promised return. The " bread and butter" income from
> the grow house provides food and income with zero pesticide except natural
> predators. In the open field I still can't take the losses nature provides
> and make money. My thought are to use ideas like you have sent me to reduce
> the cost versus loss to fiscally acceptable levels by providing the best
> soil content of nutrient and microbial content. Most of what I do is based
> on animals providing low or no cost fertilizers and composts. I am beginning
> dialogs about collaboration with a Rural Farming group abroad who use plants
> to provide low or no cost animal feeds. Much of the work they do is also
> using the manure to provide power from biodigestors. Our oil is so cheap
> that biodigestor material is not of any use to us unless combined with
> hydrogen fuel cell and hydrocarbon cracking technologies. The biodigestor
> effluent does provide us an excellent low or no cost fertilizer. Loss to
> pests is still unacceptable in open field farming. Permaculture improves
> result but decreases marketability of products, that is products are limited
> to those that fit the particular permaculture scheme. If it is cost
> effective I see GE as a tool to help in pest control. On small scale
> operations GE is also not very cost effective. That's how the cow eats
> cabbage here ... and we are always willing to learn.
> 
> Kevin L. Reed
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "William Evans" 
> Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2000 9:56 PM
> Subject: soil balancing( interviews)-Andersen, Wheeler, Kinsey, Skow
> 
> > http://www.nutri-tech.com.au/Interviews/Interviews.htm
> >
> 
> .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
> | Message 15|
> '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
> Subject: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Tue12/21/99
> From:"KevinLReed" 
> Date:Tue, 4 Jan 2000 15:26:21 +0200
> 
> Aloha Vic,
> To nit pic you are incorrect. GE can be used to alter plants in ways that
> they make no pesticides and yet are resistant to pests. An example might be
> thicker leaf coating that doesn't allow borers to gain entrance to plant
> tissue. Acacia Koa transforms itself after a few years of growth from true
> leaves to a kind of modified petal structure to perform photosynthesis.
> After this transformation the tree becomes much less susceptible to insects
> where it is very susceptible before the change occurs...Speaking of
> which ... does anyone know where I can get a good price on Bradyrizobium
> inoculant? Koa is a legume.
> Aloha,
> Kevin
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Vik Olliver" 
> To: aquaponics
> Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2000 2:03 PM
> Subject: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Tue 12/21/99
> 
> > KevinLReed wrote:
> > >
> > > GE presents the possibility of eliminating pesticides where "organic"
>as
> > > the government defines it) does not. I can't call my lettuce organic
> because
> > > it is a flotation system even though it is fertilized by fish effluent
> run
> > > though an bacterial biofilter, while I can call the tomatoes organic
> because
> > > the crushed coral in my growbed (biofilter) is a kind of soil.
> > > Round and round she goes.
> >
> > Er, not quite. GE presents the possibilty of making plants that generate
> > their own pesticides. However, this diverts parts of the plant's
> > resources into making toxins that could otherwise have gone to making
> > the plant outgrow weeds. So now we need to add more herbicides to get a
> > lower yeild of product.
> >
> > As you say, "Round and round she goes."
> >
> > Vik :v)
> > --
> > A member of The Olliver Family http://olliver.penguinpowered.com
> >
> 
> .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
> | Message 16|
> '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
> Subject: Re: System Thoughts, Bacteria?
> From:"Barry Thomas" 
> Date:Wed, 5 Jan 2000 02:57:11 -0000
> 
> > > I suggest you run the pump continuously.
> > *Well, That's the other extreme, tho' is used sometimes.
> > A compromise?
> 
> Probably right but rather depends on flow-rate into each stack of
> containers.
> 
> > > start slowly).
> > *I want this applied to pump rate changes too.
> > 10% (of maximum possible) a week change.
> > Sounds like you're at 1/60th now, ~ 2%.
> > Try 10%, or 6 min?Say 6,1 minute periods per hour,
> > due to your non moisture retentive media... or some combo?
> 
> Yes. 1 minute in 10 should be a good starting point. Certainly need a
> fairly large immediate increase - fiddle about from there.
> 
> > > One other thing that might be worth trying is to
> > > connect a couple of your bottle stacks to a
> > > seperate pump and tank to make a small hydro
> > > system.
> > *This does peform also as a backup pump... leave the
> > 1 min/hr you have now on as is, as a failsafe.
> 
> No. I meant that a couple of the stacks might be fed from (and returned
> to) a seperate tank containing proper hydroponic nutrient. The idea is
> to keep everything the same except for nutrient quality/quantity in an
> attempt to determine whether this is in fact the main cause of the
> problem and to help highlight any contributing factors. So the pump
> timing should be matched as closely as possible - use the same timer is
> easiest. Flow-rate needs to be close too. Just an idea that might be
> cheaper/easier than sending samples off to labs on a regular basis.
> 
> Barry
> barrythomas@btinternet.com
> 
> .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
> | Message 17|
> '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
> Subject: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Tue12/21/99
> From:"Barry Thomas" 
> Date:Wed, 5 Jan 2000 04:10:34 -0000
> 
> > The GE debate is almost silly since the proponents of GE are
> > so extreme they will admit to ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM with GE
> > in spite of these problems.
> 
> What is the debate exactly? It seems to have turned into a "organic" vs
> "GM food" debate. This is certainly rather silly as they're two
> completely different things.
> 
> GM foods can be compared to non-GM (to an extent).
> 
> "Organic" can be compared to more conventional farming.
> 
> Attempting to compare the two seems somewhat pointless - unless aim is
> to promote one industry on difficulties of another.
> 
> > This is not debate, it is intellectual dishonesty.
> 
> Yes, there's a lot of it about.
> 
> > ANY expert can give pro's and con's about a subject.
> 
> Indeed.
> 
> > Try it. Ask a GE fanatic for pro's and con's.
> 
> 
> Fanatics of any kind are generally difficult to reason with.
> 
> Barry
> barrythomas@btinternet.com
> 
> .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
> | Message 18|
> '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
> Subject: Re: army worms
> From:"Minelle & Joe Paloff" 
> Date:Tue, 4 Jan 2000 22:38:47 -0600
> 
> Please tell me where I can purchase the Naturalis-O.I have never heard of
> it.
> Minelle Paloff
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta" 
> To: aquaponics
> Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2000 5:28 PM
> Subject: Re: army worms
> 
> > Alon,
> >
> > I was able to get armyworms under control with Naturalis-O, various
> > strains of BT didn't do a thing to them.
> >
> > Adriana
> >
> > "M. Brody" wrote:
> > >
> > > Aqua-friends:
> > > Does anyone know how to control army worms in organic strawberries?
> > > [natural predators, or which BT is most effective?]
> > > Which sprays could be used to kill them without harming other natural
> > > predators like spider mites?
> > > Thanks for your help,
> > > Alon Zimmerman
> >
> 
> .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
> | Message 19|
> '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
> Subject: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Tue12/21/99
> From:"KevinLReed" 
> Date:Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:52:43 +0200
> 
> It seems to me to make the best use of ALL available methods makes the most
> sense. I get the most good sense from the people here with experience and a
> willingness to exploit new ideas. If I can support family, a community and
> industry then my karma ran over your dogma.
> Aloha,
> Kevin
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Barry Thomas" 
> To: aquaponics
> Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 6:10 AM
> Subject: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Tue 12/21/99
> 
> (below is out of context)
> 
> >
> > Fanatics of any kind are generally difficult to reason with.
> >
> > Barry
> > barrythomas@btinternet.com
> >
> >

.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 10|
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: System Thoughts, Bacteria?
From:Bagelhole1
Date:Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:50:32 EST

In a message dated 1/5/00 4:57:19 AM, barrythomas@crosswinds.net writes:

<>

Dear Barry,
 Thanks for your suggestion, but I want to keep things as simple 
as possible. I think, maybe I should mist the plants with something or add 
something to the water. It seems the plants are getting enough, one minute 
every hour to keep the roots damp, (I don't want them to be too damp).

Tom Osher
http://bagelhole.org

.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 11|
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: New varieties for Y2K
From:MUDDTOO
Date:Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:15:28 EST

In a message dated 1/5/00 4:42:32 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
gutierrez-lagatta@home.com writes:

> I'm looking for a very crisp green lettuce variety to mix with frisee
>for one of my French chefs.Paula, I believe you use Black Seeded
>Simpson in your mix.Now I see that there is an "improved" variety
>called Simpson Elite.Can you enlighten us on the virtues/drawbacks of
>either of these or recommend another variety?

Hello,
Have you considered Radicchio, red Heading Chicory (pretty red and white 
color) or some of the green chinese cabbages like China Flash or Choi Joi 
Choi ? Both look good in the market and are sold through the Park Seed Co..

Joel

.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 12|
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Calicum
From:"Sulfercreek" 
Date:Wed, 5 Jan 2000 21:50:40 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF57C6.E8AA9DE0


 Co-Authors:David A. Bok
Joseph Hammon

 Title:White Gold

 Crop production is the problem of having available in the
 soil all the elements in balance required for plant
 nutrition so the crop as feed or food will have all the
 elements and compounds required for animal and human
 nutrition (Vol. III, Dr. Albrecht Papers).

 We were searching for a more economical crop production in
 our heavy clay soil, along the way we tried compost. green
 manure, and animal manures, but the results were a
 disappointment.With further research, we found to get =
long
 lasting soil tilth we needed to open the path for water and
 oxygen movement in the soil profile.We discovered to =
bring
 the soils life cycle, grow, decompose and supply back into
 its proper order the answer for us is high calcium lime
 WHITE GOLD.

 With high calcium lime, came the pH factor.Would the lime
 take the pH to a high a level to lock up plant food?We
 must forget about lime as a neutralizer and think of it as
 plant food.If the soil is adequately limed or balanced
 with calcium, all other nutrients will become balanced and
 the pH will properly adjust itself provided we stop =
pouring,
 salt fertilizers on our land.A high pH may be brought
 about by sodium potassium of ammonium, where there is
 calcium present of not.

 Research done by Dr. V. A. Tiedjens in the 1920's proved
 that high calcium lime acted as a regulator high calcium
 lime has a pH of 6.8 so is the soil was low it would raise
 the pH and the opposite was true if the soil was high in pH
 it would lower it.Dr. Tiedjens realized there was no
 relationship between adequate saturation and pH of the =
soil.
 He developed a test to determine the amount of calcium in
 soil to produce a maximum yield.He discovered that the
 chemically active colloidal matter in the soils determined
 how much lime stone was needed.

 By using Dr. Tiedjens research findings and charts we found
 that our clay soils needed 85% base saturation of calcium
 per plow acre-foot.Organic matter has the ability to
 absorb large quantities of calcium.

 The more we looked at the soil and calcium connection the
 more benefits we realized such as earthworms.Earthworm
 eggs will stay dormant in the soil until the proper level =
of
 calcium becomes available.Earthworms have been called "
 Nature's Plowmen".Earthworms open the plow sole to let
 oxygen in carbon dioxide out.Earthworms feed on dead or
 decaying organic matter and then deposit castings in the =20

 soil.These castings are richer in plant food than the
 soil.They also increase soil porosity, aeration, =
drainage,
 plus mixing the soil.Earthworms burrow several feet deep.
 Tests have shown that earthworm inhabited soil can have a
 25% yield increase.Earthworms do not like unfavorable =
soil
 conditions.They cannot live in strong acid soils or in to
 dry or waterlogged soils.Also there are a lot more little
 micro bugs that will produce plant food in the soil due to
 the increased oxygen in the soil.

 Secondly we found that a magnesiumimbalance will cause =
the
 soil to be tighter and cause water to run off carrying soil
 particles, nitrogen, potassium, phosphorus.Calcium has =
the
 ability to make the soil act like a sponge to absorb water
 and oxygen.This in turn reduces runoff and lowers input
 costs by retaining the nitrogen, potassium, phosphorus.

 With the soil in balance and the reduction or elimination =
of
 chemical inputs, what we plant and grow now has improved
 food or feed value. User friendly.

 We have seen protein in corn silage increase from 8.8% to
 10.19%, alfalfa increase from 22.5% to 24.1%, small grains
 from 12.4% to 13.5%, ground ear corn as high as 9.6% and
 shelled corn as high as 11.5%.With shelled corn averaging
 7% protein across the country, 100 bu/ac corn with 7%
 protein equals $98.100 bu/ac corn with 11.5% protein
 equals $161.This is cutting edge economics.

 Other benefits we have seen:
1.Less horse power and fuel to pull equipment
2.Better soil tilth
3.Reduced weed spray
4.less erosion
5.improved feed quality
6.hay cured and retained leaves better
7.increased seed germination
8.lower input costs

 We are excited about the progress we have made and even =
more
 so about the future.We have learned a lot and have a lot
 more to learn.We could say more about "WHITE GOLD"but
 the best thing is we feel a great confidence in the future
 of our farms ability to provide us with something a lot =
more
 than just sustain-ability.

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF57C6.E8AA9DE0










          =
  =20
Co-Authors:  David A.=20
Bok
           =
            &=
nbsp; =20
Joseph Hammon
 
          &nbs=
p; =20
Title:  White Gold
 
          &nbs=
p; =20
Crop production is the problem of having available in=20
the
           =
 =20
soil all the elements in balance required for=20
plant
          &nbs=
p; =20
nutrition so the crop as feed or food will have all=20
the
           =
 =20
elements and compounds required for animal and=20
human
          &nbs=
p; =20
nutrition (Vol. III, Dr. Albrecht Papers).
 
          &nbs=
p; =20
We were searching for a more economical crop production=20
in
           &=
nbsp;=20
our heavy clay soil, along the way we tried compost.=20
green
          &nbs=
p; =20
manure, and animal manures, but the results were=20
a
           &n=
bsp;=20
disappointment.  With further research, we found to get=20
long
           =
; =20
lasting soil tilth we needed to open the path for water=20
and
           =
 =20
oxygen movement in the soil profile.  We discovered to=20
bring
          &nbs=
p; =20
the soils life cycle, grow, decompose and supply back=20
into
           =
; =20
its proper order the answer for us is high calcium=20
lime
           =
; =20
WHITE GOLD.
 
          &nbs=
p; =20
With high calcium lime, came the pH factor.  Would the=20
lime
           =
; =20
take the pH to a high a level to lock up plant food? =20
We
           &=
nbsp;=20
must forget about lime as a neutralizer and think of it=20
as
           &=
nbsp;=20
plant food.  If the soil is adequately limed or=20
balanced
          &=
nbsp; =20
with calcium, all other nutrients will become balanced=20
and
           =
 =20
the pH will properly adjust itself provided we stop=20
pouring,
          &=
nbsp; =20
salt fertilizers on our land.  A high pH may be=20
brought
          &n=
bsp; =20
about by sodium potassium of ammonium, where there=20
is
           &=
nbsp;=20
calcium present of not.
 
          &nbs=
p; =20
Research done by Dr. V. A. Tiedjens in the 1920's=20
proved
          &nb=
sp; =20
that high calcium lime acted as a regulator high=20
calcium
          &n=
bsp; =20
lime has a pH of 6.8 so is the soil was low it would=20
raise
          &nbs=
p; =20
the pH and the opposite was true if the soil was high in=20
pH
           &=
nbsp;=20
it would lower it.  Dr. Tiedjens realized there was=20
no
           &=
nbsp;=20
relationship between adequate saturation and pH of the=20
soil.
          &nbs=
p; =20
He developed a test to determine the amount of calcium=20
in
           &=
nbsp;=20
soil to produce a maximum yield.  He discovered that=20
the
           =
 =20
chemically active colloidal matter in the soils=20
determined
          =
;  =20
how much lime stone was needed.
 
          &nbs=
p; =20
By using Dr. Tiedjens research findings and charts we=20
found
          &nbs=
p; =20
that our clay soils needed 85% base saturation of=20
calcium
          &n=
bsp; =20
per plow acre-foot.  Organic matter has the ability=20
to
           &=
nbsp;=20
absorb large quantities of calcium.
 
          &nbs=
p; =20
The more we looked at the soil and calcium connection=20
the
           =
 =20
more benefits we realized such as earthworms. =20
Earthworm
          =
  =20
eggs will stay dormant in the soil until the proper level=20
of
           &=
nbsp;=20
calcium becomes available.  Earthworms have been called=20
"
           &n=
bsp;=20
Nature's Plowmen".  Earthworms open the plow sole to=20
let
           =
 =20
oxygen in carbon dioxide out.  Earthworms feed on dead=20
or
           &=
nbsp;=20
decaying organic matter and then deposit castings in the  =


          =
  =20
soil.  These castings are richer in plant food than=20
the
           =
 =20
soil.  They also increase soil porosity, aeration,=20
drainage,
          =
  =20
plus mixing the soil.  Earthworms burrow several feet=20
deep.
          &nbs=
p; =20
Tests have shown that earthworm inhabited soil can have=20
a
           &n=
bsp;=20
25% yield increase.  Earthworms do not like unfavorable=20
soil
           =
; =20
conditions.  They cannot live in strong acid soils or in=20
to
           &=
nbsp;=20
dry or waterlogged soils.  Also there are a lot more=20
little
          &nb=
sp; =20
micro bugs that will produce plant food in the soil due=20
to
           &=
nbsp;=20
the increased oxygen in the soil.
 
          &nbs=
p; =20
Secondly we found that a magnesium  imbalance will cause=20
the
           =
 =20
soil to be tighter and cause water to run off carrying=20
soil
           =
; =20
particles, nitrogen, potassium, phosphorus.  Calcium has=20
the
           =
 =20
ability to make the soil act like a sponge to absorb=20
water
          &nbs=
p; =20
and oxygen.  This in turn reduces runoff and lowers=20
input
          &nbs=
p; =20
costs by retaining the nitrogen, potassium, phosphorus.
 
          &nbs=
p; =20
With the soil in balance and the reduction or elimination=20
of
           &=
nbsp;=20
chemical inputs, what we plant and grow now has=20
improved
          &=
nbsp; =20
food or feed value. User friendly.
 
          &nbs=
p; =20
We have seen protein in corn silage increase from 8.8%=20
to
           &=
nbsp;=20
10.19%, alfalfa increase from 22.5% to 24.1%, small=20
grains
          &nb=
sp; =20
from 12.4% to 13.5%, ground ear corn as high as 9.6%=20
and
           =
 =20
shelled corn as high as 11.5%.  With shelled corn=20
averaging
          =
  =20
7% protein across the country, 100 bu/ac corn with=20
7%
           &=
nbsp;=20
protein equals $98.  100 bu/ac corn with 11.5%=20
protein
          &n=
bsp; =20
equals $161.  This is cutting edge economics.
 
          &nbs=
p; =20
Other benefits we have=20
seen:
          &nbs=
p;      =20
1.  Less horse power and fuel to pull=20
equipment
          =
       =20
2.  Better soil=20
tilth
          &nbs=
p;      =20
3.  Reduced weed=20
spray
          &nbs=
p;      =20
4.  less=20
erosion
          &n=
bsp;      =20
5.  improved feed=20
quality
          &n=
bsp;      =20
6.  hay cured and retained leaves=20
better
          &nb=
sp;      =20
7.  increased seed=20
germination
         &nbs=
p;       =20
8.  lower input costs
 
          &nbs=
p; =20
We are excited about the progress we have made and even=20
more
           =
; =20
so about the future.  We have learned a lot and have a=20
lot
           =
 =20
more to learn.  We could say more about "WHITE GOLD" =20
but
           =
 =20
the best thing is we feel a great confidence in the=20
future
          &nb=
sp; =20
of our farms ability to provide us with something a lot=20
more
           =
; =20
than just sustain-ability.
 
 
 
 

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF57C6.E8AA9DE0--

.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 13|
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Re: System Thoughts, Bacteria?
From:"Barry Thomas" 
Date:Thu, 6 Jan 2000 04:07:50 -0000

Tom,

> Thanks for your suggestion, but I want to
> keep things as simple as possible.

Fair enough but if you try to simplify things too much, they can quickly
become impossible.

> I think, maybe I should mist the plants with something

If the 'something' is anything other than water, be aware that it may
cause problems for fish, plants or system/GH.

> or addsomething to the water.

Yes. Some nutrient content. Did you see the reply I sent to your initial
(recent) post?

> It seems the plants are getting enough, one
> minuteevery hour to keep the roots damp, (I
> don't want them to be too damp).

Plant roots can be totally submerged from germination until harvest and
be perfectly happy about it - if the solution they're in is sufficiently
aerated. Raft systems show this. Or, roots (and media) may be always
'enclosed' by a film of liquid in which case, most of the gas exchange
between roots and atmosphere happens via the surface of the film. NFT
and 'drip' systems usually maintain a constant flow through the film,
bringing fresh nutrients and carrying away wastes. Flood & Drain systems
maintain the film by simply replacing it (and the surrounding air) at
intervals.

Bear in mind also that bacteria are important in hydro and crucial in
aquaponics.

In addition, with flow rates this low, the plant side of things will be
contributing little to the fish, either by cleaning the water or
aerating it.

Barry
barrythomas@btinternet.com