Aquaponics Digest - Sun 01/16/00

Message 1: EC Trout
 from Bill 

Message 2: Re: Strawberries
 from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta 

Message 3: Introduction
 from Ray Schneider 

Message 4: Re: Strawberries
 from "Jay Myers" 

Message 5: Re: Introduction
 from "Jay Myers" 

Message 6: tomatos ...
 from Ray Schneider 

Message 7: Re: Introduction
 from Jim 

Message 8: Re: Introduction
 from "Dale Robinson" 

Message 9: Re: Strawberries
 from "Dale Robinson" 

Message10: Re: tomatos ...
 from S & S Aqua Farm 

Message11: Re: Trout and Lettuce
 from S & S Aqua Farm 

Message12: Re: Introduction
 from PORTWOODGARDENS@cs.com

Message13: Re: tomatos ...
 from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta 

Message14: Re: Fish Pin Co-op
 from "vpage" 

Message15: Re: tomatos ...
 from Ray Schneider 

Message16: Re: tomatos ...
 from "Jay Myers" 

Message17: Re: Introduction
 from "Jay Myers" 

Message18: Re: Strawberries
 from "Jay Myers" 

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| Message 1 |
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Subject: EC Trout
From:Bill 
Date:16 Jan 00 00:55:06 PST

Marc Laberge wrote:
>I was wondering if anyone can tell me if an EC of 2000
( 1400ppm ) can affect the health of rainbow trout.

*During design and installation of 16-400 gal seawater tanks and homemade=

refridge system in U of WA, i was tols theu were the first to offer a deg=
ree
in fish hatcheries.I know they did trout too.This was the late 70s.=
by
NOW they should hacve a website, that MAY have this info.
Bill

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| Message 2 |
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Subject: Re: Strawberries
From:Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta 
Date:Sun, 16 Jan 2000 06:48:58 -0500

> 8680 plants, most of which are strawberries.We also have 3 grow beds with
> pea gravel, and5000 gal fish tank with 3400 little swimmers at 85 degrees
Jay, when those 3400 swimmers start really cranking out the dookie
(er...effluent) it seems more than the 3 grow beds will be able to
process.What are your plans then?Will you run the effluent through
the berry towers?

> can grow through August.Then the berries get going again in September,
> producing fruit by November end. A DAY OFF comes in there somewhere.
What's a day off?

Adriana
Sarasota, Fl

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| Message 3 |
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Subject: Introduction
From:Ray Schneider 
Date:Sun, 16 Jan 2000 07:47:40 -0500

Hi Aquaponics folks -- I am a newbie to aquaponics.I'm a hydroponics
hobbyist and a Contributing Writer to Growing Edge magazine.My friend
Marlan Showalter is very interested in aquaponics and Paula Speraneo of
S&S Aqua Farm was kind enough to tell me about the aquaponics list.
(she's on the hydrolist I frequent)

My editor at Grow Edge magazine in interested in articles on aquaponics
and I'm interested in the technology.I live in Harrisonburg, VA which
is not yet the center of the universe as far as aquaponics is concerned,
so I'd like to link up with someone within driving distance that
wouldn't mind showing me around, and might be the subject of an article
in Growing Edge -- freelance writers can never guarantee anything :)

Meanwhile, I look forward to lurking.I can't really contribute much,
since I've never so much as seen an aquaponics set up.

Cheers, Ray
-- 
Ray Schneider
rschneid@shentel.net
On the Search for the PERFECT tomato.
Come See Me at:
http://www.user.shentel.net/rschneid

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| Message 4 |
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Subject: Re: Strawberries
From:"Jay Myers" 
Date:Sun, 16 Jan 2000 10:01:28 -0600

>> 8680 plants, most of which are strawberries.We also have 3 grow beds
with
>> pea gravel, and5000 gal fish tank with 3400 little swimmers at 85
degrees
>Jay, when those 3400 swimmers start really cranking out the dookie
>(er...effluent) it seems more than the 3 grow beds will be able to
>process.What are your plans then?Will you run the effluent through
>the berry towers?

>Adriana
>Sarasota, Fl

Well ------- I have til early May until I need to split them into two tanks
of the of the same size.By then it will be warm enough outside to have
beds out there, and I've given thought to trying beds like yours. (perlite)
The wind, etc. may be a problem. The fish should be ready to sell in July -
August, then I thought I may try one colder tank for some other fish, and
keep the warm one inside.I have an old water/air heat pump, and I think I
may be able to pull heat from the cold tank, and put it into the Talapia
water.

Don't think I'll put fish water into berry towers - couple of reasons.
Remember the PhD. in Virgina found fish water was not strong enough for
the berry needs, but in this case it may be too strong.About May we feed
berries only water for the summer while they are dormant.Would need to
filter the water so small emiter tubes wouldn't clog.

A DAY OFF comes in there somewhere.
>What's a day off?

Something I read about !

Jay

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Subject: Re: Introduction
From:"Jay Myers" 
Date:Sun, 16 Jan 2000 10:09:15 -0600

>Ray Schneider
>rschneid@shentel.net
>On the Search for the PERFECT tomato.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Come See Me at:
>http://www.user.shentel.net/rschneid

The endless search to be sure.???Has anyone ever found the hydroponic
tomato that tastes like a summertime home grown Tomato ??Is it the
variety, or is it some technique ?

Jay Myers
Panama City Beach, Fl.

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| Message 6 |
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Subject: tomatos ...
From:Ray Schneider 
Date:Sun, 16 Jan 2000 11:28:53 -0500

Jay Myers wrote in response to my signature line:

"The endless search to be sure.???Has anyone ever found the
hydroponic
tomato that tastes like a summertime home grown Tomato ??Is it the
variety, or is it some technique ?"

-- I know this is about fish (tomatoes go well with fish) -- to answer
Jay's question, my own experience suggests that taste follows variety
and not so much hydroponics methods.The reasons storebought tomatoes
generally don't taste all that good are IMHO: 1) the varieties are
selected for shelf-life and not taste, 2) they are picked early (same
reason), and 3) yield is an important property in commercial cultivars,
also uncorrelated with taste.The tomatoes I've grown on my backyard
system have been among the most tasty tomatoes I have ever eaten -- all
the folks at work agree too.

Now for an on-topic question -- Lettuce and strawberries I gather use
relatively low EC's so maybe they are more compatible than tomatoes for
fish.Is anyone growing tomatoes and fish? 
What are the EC limits the fish tolerate?Are there any adverse effects
from for example EC's of 2800-3500 which is about where I've been
running my tomatoes.

Cheers, Ray

-- 
Ray Schneider
rschneid@shentel.net
On the Search for the PERFECT tomato.
Come See Me at:
http://www.user.shentel.net/rschneid

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| Message 7 |
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Subject: Re: Introduction
From:Jim 
Date:Sun, 16 Jan 2000 10:51:02 -0600

People often comment that my tomatoes taste home grown. I answer: 'They
are home grown, I just have a large, high tech garden.'
Variety and age have more to do with taste than growing method in my
experience. Green picked/force ripened tomatoes don't have time to
develop much serious flavor.
I've eaten some 'home grown' (home garden farmed) tomatoes which tasted
as bland as the worst examples of 'store bought' tomatoes.
Jim

Jay Myers wrote:
> 
> >Ray Schneider
> >rschneid@shentel.net
> >On the Search for the PERFECT tomato.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >Come See Me at:
> >http://www.user.shentel.net/rschneid
> 
> The endless search to be sure.???Has anyone ever found the hydroponic
> tomato that tastes like a summertime home grown Tomato ??Is it the
> variety, or is it some technique ?
> 
> Jay Myers
> Panama City Beach, Fl.

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Subject: Re: Introduction
From:"Dale Robinson" 
Date:Sat, 15 Jan 2000 12:12:02 -0800

Hi Jim, Ray, Jay, & Others
I've goten tomatoes here in the Midwest from California that was as every
bit as tasty as any I've ever tasted.I'm sure it was picked pretty close
to green in order for it to make the journey without spoiling.I told Ray
about that one at the time.
I also picked some of my Sweet Million Cherry tomatoes very green just
before the first frost hit.They too were pretty close to tasting as good
as a vine ripened tomato.
On the other hand,I have picked up some of those "forced ripened" tomatoes
and tried to finish them off on the counter.No such luck! They spoiled
before they would ripen.They went from hard to spoiled overnite when they
finally got soft.
The soil here is very hard to work with.It is clay and takes at least two
passes with a tiller to get it worked up very well at all.My neighbor(at
my advice) tilled some perlite into his garden last spring.He was amazed
at the tomatoes he got from his garden.He didn't show me any though.He
just told me about it a few days ago as I was giving him a bag of tomatoes
from the greenhouse I worked for(went out of business as of last week).He
said they were about 4 to 5 inches in dia.That's about 1 1/2 to 2 lbs at a
guess.I suspect that he will find tilling a LOT easier this year.
The tomatoes I gave him were picked pretty green and rippened in a cool
place in my home(about 65 deg. F.).They were very tasty as well.
I hope you enjoy this list as much as the hydro list Ray!
Dale Robinson

> People often comment that my tomatoes taste home grown. I answer: 'They
> are home grown, I just have a large, high tech garden.'
> Variety and age have more to do with taste than growing method in my
> experience. Green picked/force ripened tomatoes don't have time to
> develop much serious flavor.
> I've eaten some 'home grown' (home garden farmed) tomatoes which tasted
> as bland as the worst examples of 'store bought' tomatoes.
> Jim
>
> Jay Myers wrote:
> >
> > >Ray Schneider
> > >rschneid@shentel.net
> > >On the Search for the PERFECT tomato.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >Come See Me at:
> > >http://www.user.shentel.net/rschneid
> >
> > The endless search to be sure.???Has anyone ever found the
hydroponic
> > tomato that tastes like a summertime home grown Tomato ??Is it the
> > variety, or is it some technique ?
> >
> > Jay Myers
> > Panama City Beach, Fl.

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| Message 9 |
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Subject: Re: Strawberries
From:"Dale Robinson" 
Date:Sat, 15 Jan 2000 12:33:38 -0800

Hi Jay,
I cringe to even think about what you are going to do to yourself on this
U-pickventure.
A friend here allowed U-pick on his vert-i-grow system and had to put a stop
to it. The customers were not carefull how they picked the fruit.The fruit
stems would get broken off with a lot of green berries because they would
pull down on the fruit across the edge of the grow pots.
Good luck with with your new venture!
Are you growing everbearing strawberries?
Dale Robinson
> The U-pick is just for strawberries.They're inside the greenhouse,
growing
> in a vert-i-grow system.

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Subject: Re: tomatos ...
From:S & S Aqua Farm 
Date:Sun, 16 Jan 2000 15:30:30 -0600

At 11:28 AM 01/16/2000 -0500, Ray wrote:

>Now for an on-topic question -- Lettuce and strawberries I gather use
>relatively low EC's so maybe they are more compatible than tomatoes for
>fish.Is anyone growing tomatoes and fish? 

We've grown tomatoes for some time, and one of the first write-ups we saw on
a combination aquaculture and plant growing system was based on research
growing tomatoes by Dr. Mark McMurtry.I've misplaced the exact title of
his work, but I'm sure we could come up with it if anyone wants to review
it.It's not that it isn't being done, just that the most recent
conversations have been around other crops. 

Of course, if we're growing tomatoes, then besides the outside growers, we
also have to think about competition from the "traditional" hydroponics
growers, eh? :>)

>What are the EC limits the fish tolerate?Are there any adverse effects
>from for example EC's of 2800-3500 which is about where I've been
>running my tomatoes.

I hope someone who measures this answers you, Ray.We very seldom run tests
any more.I hate to take the simplistic view; but if your fish are happy
(water quality is good, they're eating, no stress signs), and the plants are
growing and producing (and filtering), I don't see the need to disect the
system.You won't want to be growing fish in hydroponic solution anyway.
That's what the fish effluent water is for - the replace the function of the
hydro solutions.

Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/

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| Message 11|
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Subject: Re: Trout and Lettuce
From:S & S Aqua Farm 
Date:Sun, 16 Jan 2000 15:30:35 -0600

At 12:29 PM 01/15/2000 -0500, Marc wrote:

To get things started I am using hydroponic fertilizers but this is
temporary ; just to get the plants started. I am working on the concept of
60g of feed / day per square meter of growing space, plant roots in a raft
system being able to support enough bacteria to keep system in equilibrium.
I was wondering if any affect on the growth and health of of the fish has
ever been observed.

I would be concerned about the residual effect of hydroponic solution in a
system growing fish.Perhaps someone else can advise on this.If you are
just trying to get your plant system underway with nutrients, you might
consider adding a mix of fish emulsion and Maxicrop to the fish water -
should have no negative effect, yet should add to the nutrient level as your
fish "grow into" the plant system.

What size plants will you transplant into your raft system?Will you be
removing solids?I know the UVI raft system is set up primarily for
lettuces, so I'll let them comment on the bacterial balance necessary.I
believe that they remove solids before pumping to the raft system just to
prevent excess build-up on the root systems.

>I read in the aquaponics journal an article by Gorden Ceaser about
hydroponics in England in the early 50's using sheep tea...can anyone tell
me if this can be done in an aquaponics system using fish feces.
>

I've not read the article, but unless I misunderstand the question, that's
exactly what aquaponics does.The type of delivery system will have a lot
to do with system design, though.

Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/

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| Message 12|
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Subject: Re: Introduction
From:PORTWOODGARDENS@cs.com
Date:Sun, 16 Jan 2000 18:56:09 EST

Ray 
Welcome to the aquaponics list:)
Marlan

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| Message 13|
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Subject: Re: tomatos ...
From:Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta 
Date:Sun, 16 Jan 2000 19:46:30 -0500

Jay,
I grew some grape tomatoes from seed scavenged from grocery store grape
tomatoes and they are great, just the right combination of sweet and
tart.Now if I can grow a slicer just like them I would be in heaven.

> "The endless search to be sure.???Has anyone ever found the
> hydroponic
> tomato that tastes like a summertime home grown Tomato ??Is it the
> variety, or is it some technique ?"

> also uncorrelated with taste.The tomatoes I've grown on my backyard
> system have been among the most tasty tomatoes I have ever eaten -- all
> the folks at work agree too.
Ray, what is your favorite variety for flavor?
 
Adriana Gutierrez
Sarasota, Fl

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Subject: Re: Fish Pin Co-op
From:"vpage" 
Date:Sun, 16 Jan 2000 17:37:30 -0700

Subject: Fish Pin Co-op
Ron long time no talk!
These pins might be suited to our National Recirc Conf in 2001.
What is your web page address?
Thanks V

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| Message 15|
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Subject: Re: tomatos ...
From:Ray Schneider 
Date:Sun, 16 Jan 2000 22:04:48 -0500

Hmmm ... that's a tough one since a lot of them were very good.Among
my favorites were the French Dona, which is a very red, very
symmetrical, nearly perfect looking medium size tomato with a tangy
taste.I really like them.The Presto is a slightly larger tomato that
I like almost as well as the Dona from this years system.I grew a lot
of other varieties -- about eight in all, but those two remain my
favorites.

I didn't particularly care for the cherry tomatoes that I've grown --
they are good, but I prefer the bigger tomatoes.I accidently got some
hybrids from New Jersey Standards and Sun Gold cherries -- these were
pretty funny -- pingpong ball size cherry tomatoes -- some yellow some
rose colored -- the gold ones were really tasty inheriting the taste of
the Sun Golds, the rose ones were less tasty and too small for "real"
tomatoes and too big to be cherries -- they were the same size as the
Gold ones, just didn't taste quite as good.Then I had a bunch of
others and some of them were good.I love nearly all tomatoes -- so
we're talking a little about nits -- I do think the Dona and Prestos
were the two best I grew this past year.They were both from Totally
Tomatoes.

Cheers, Ray

Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta wrote:
> Ray, what is your favorite variety for flavor? 
> Adriana Gutierrez
> Sarasota, Fl

-- 
Ray Schneider
rschneid@shentel.net
On the Search for the PERFECT tomato.
Come See Me at:
http://www.user.shentel.net/rschneid

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| Message 16|
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Subject: Re: tomatos ...
From:"Jay Myers" 
Date:Sun, 16 Jan 2000 22:05:37 -0600

Ray -

We use an EC of 1500 for strawberries.There is a PhD around the Va. area
who tried to grow strawberries in the Vert-i-grow system using trout water,
but they didn't do that well.They had to suppliment with some hydro fert.

My brief experience has shown lettuce, flowers, spinach, etc. to do really
well, and my fish are only 4 weeks along, only weighing 4.6 gr. x 3400 =
about 35 Lbs of fish.

Based on Paula's words I am going to transplant my only tomato plant into
the grow bed tomorrow.

Jay Myers
Panama City Beach, Fl.
Skydiving spoken here!

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| Message 17|
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Subject: Re: Introduction
From:"Jay Myers" 
Date:Sun, 16 Jan 2000 22:21:03 -0600

>People often comment that my tomatoes taste home grown. I answer: 'They
>are home grown, I just have a large, high tech garden.'

Thanks Jim -
The Master Gardeners course I'm in from the U. of Florida teaches there is
the "energy field" emiting from ones hands,sometimes called the "green
Thumb". From your reputation I'd say you have it, and I think that
contributes to the taste of your tomatoes.

My grandad used to put lime around them at just the perfect time - I was too
young and stupid to learn just when that was, but the man could grow a mean
tomato.I have to rely on high tech - don't have the feel yet.

Jay

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| Message 18|
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Subject: Re: Strawberries
From:"Jay Myers" 
Date:Sun, 16 Jan 2000 22:30:36 -0600

Hi Dale

You're right - they do bare watching.So far - so good.

We have 4 types - Sweet Charlie, Rosa Linda, Chandlers, and Camarosa. The
Rosa Linda is by far the best to date.The long stem is a problem for those
who grow outside and experience freeze, but inside we're safe from that.
Very little fungus there, unlike the Sweet Charlie's.They are a battle.

Jay

-----Original Message-----
From: Dale Robinson 
To: aquaponics@townsqr.com aquaponics@townsqr.com
Date: Sunday, January 16, 2000 12:34 PM
Subject: Re: Strawberries

>Hi Jay,
>I cringe to even think about what you are going to do to yourself on this
>U-pickventure.
>A friend here allowed U-pick on his vert-i-grow system and had to put a
stop
>to it. The customers were not carefull how they picked the fruit.The
fruit
>stems would get broken off with a lot of green berries because they would
>pull down on the fruit across the edge of the grow pots.
>Good luck with with your new venture!
>Are you growing everbearing strawberries?
>Dale Robinson
>> The U-pick is just for strawberries.They're inside the greenhouse,
>growing
>> in a vert-i-grow system.
>