Aquaponics Digest - Mon 01/24/00
Message 1: Re: Natural Feeds for fish.
from CAVM
Message 2: RE: Fish Pin Co-op
from "Ron"
Message 3: Jamaica
from LC543119
Message 4: Re: Jamaica
from atkindw@cwjamaica.com (david w atkinson)
Message 5: RE: nutrients in fish waste...
from "Chris Mills"
Message 6: Re: Fish Pin Co-op
from "TGTX"
Message 7: Re: Crayfish in tanks.
from Robert WALKER
Message 8: Post harvest procedure
from "Jay Myers"
Message 9: Re: Crayfish in tanks.
from CAVM
Message 10: Re: Crayfish in tanks.
from "D.Bennett"
Message 11: Re: Crayfish in tanks.
from "D.Bennett"
Message 12: Re: Crayfish in tanks.
from CAVM
Message 13: Re: Crayfish in tanks.
from CAVM
Message 14: RE: Crayfish
from Robert WALKER
Message 15: Re: Crayfish
from CAVM
Message 16: Re: Crayfish in tanks.
from "D.Bennett"
Message 17: Re: Post harvest procedure
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 18: Re: Crayfish in tanks.
from CAVM
Message 19: Re: Crayfish
from "Donald W. Trotter"
Message 20: Re: Crayfish in tanks.
from "Sam Levy"
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| Message 1 |
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Subject: Re: Natural Feeds for fish.
From: CAVM
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 09:26:43 EST
Rober Walker
How are you keeping the crayfish from eating each other? My understanding is
that they consume each other as they moult.
>My crayfish have been breeding madly in tanks in a shed<
Cornelius Van Milligen
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Subject: RE: Fish Pin Co-op
From: "Ron"
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 10:39:44 -0500
Virginia
Hi there , well my web page addy is http://www.vraquaponics.8m.com But the
pin photos are not there. I will try to get some pictures up there for you
to look at.
Ron
-----Original Message-----
From: aquaponics
[mailto:aquaponics]On Behalf Of vpage
Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2000 7:38 PM
To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
Subject: Re: Fish Pin Co-op
Subject: Fish Pin Co-op
Ron long time no talk!
These pins might be suited to our National Recirc Conf in 2001.
What is your web page address?
Thanks V
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Subject: Jamaica
From: LC543119
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 12:44:26 EST
David Mike,
The name of the company in Mandeville is Rosehill Farms
the are now producing several lettuce varietys for sale in supermarkets in
your two major cities they are next going to grow tomatoes and later will be
going into fish .
I am presently writing an article for the next issue of the Growing Edge and
The Aquaponic Journal on the major organic aquaponic project in New Mexico
which I will be involved This project will be a huge step forward in the
aquaponic industry
Gordon Creaser
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Subject: Re: Jamaica
From: atkindw@cwjamaica.com (david w atkinson)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 13:04:54 -0800
Hi Gordon,
Thanks for the information. Good Luck in the project.
Sorry we were not able to meet when you were in Jamaica. Not to worry
though, there is time. :-)
Keep in touch.
David A.
(atkindw@cwjamaica.com)
At 12:44 PM 01/24/2000 EST, you wrote:
>David Mike,
> The name of the company in Mandeville is Rosehill Farms
>the are now producing several lettuce varietys for sale in supermarkets in
>your two major cities they are next going to grow tomatoes and later will be
>going into fish .
>I am presently writing an article for the next issue of the Growing Edge and
>The Aquaponic Journal on the major organic aquaponic project in New Mexico
>which I will be involved This project will be a huge step forward in the
>aquaponic industry
> Gordon Creaser
>
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Subject: RE: nutrients in fish waste...
From: "Chris Mills"
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 09:25:03 -0600
Marc:
Why does coldwater fish spoil faster than warmwater fish?
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: aquaponics
[mailto:aquaponics]On Behalf Of Marc Laberge
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2000 5:49 PM
To: aqua
Subject: nutrients in fish waste...
Hi Tom, I would love to know about what materials are released as the fecal
matter breaks down . ( your reference say aquaponic digest...can you give me
more info on this.)
Hi Donna, don't be ashamed to ask questions; your questions are great and in
no way are they dumb.
With regards to your questions;
1. How long for trout to reach marketable size?
This would all depend on the market your looking at, you can raise
them to fingerlings ( 3" ), to stock outfitters, pond fishing , lakes and
rivers ( all sizes of fish ), or you can raise them to growout sizes for
restaurants and food stores.
The temperature of the water will determine the amount of time it will
take for the fish to grow. ex a 3" trout can reach 13" and weigh almost a
pound in 9 months at 15C ( 60F ).
2. Trout densities.
As I mentioned I am no expert with tilapia; I am not sure if fish
densities are similar. Trout densities vary according to there size. Smaller
fish range around 18kg / meter cube and larger fish up to 55 kg / meter
cube. The rule of thumb is 1.85 kg of fish per meter cube of tank per cm of
fish. ex. a 30 cm fish would be;30x 1.85 = 55.5 kg/m3 .
3. Do catfish thrive in cooler water more than trout...
I would say no, in order of increasing temperature it would be trout,
catfish then tilapia. Temperature is one thing with trout but the other
biggy is oxygen, unlike tilapia or catfish, trout need a lot of O2. It is
not recommended to drop below 65% of saturation of O2 at the exit of your
tanks ponds or whatever.
4. 12-15C....this equals around 55-60F
5. Having not worked with tilapia I could not tell you weather trout is an
easier product than tilapia to market and such. I would imagine that cold
water fish would spoil faster than warmer water fish, making it more
difficult to deal with the trout than the tilapia.
Hope this helped
Marc Laberge
Mont Tremblant
Qc.,Canada
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Subject: Re: Fish Pin Co-op
From: "TGTX"
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 19:22:40 -0600
Howdy Ron.
Like your website.
How does your Red Claw grow/taste?
Good I hope.
I would like to know more about the pygmy goats.
Reply off line if you want since this is not about aquaponics.
Ted
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Subject: Re: Crayfish in tanks.
From: Robert WALKER
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:30:20 +1000
Cornelius,
Most of the adult crays are happy eating crayfish pellets,
and I have found they are very keen on black worms as well.
Other pellets include standard fish pellets, sinkable fish
pellet with 20%+ protein content seems to be ok. Floating pellets
just tease them, they claw away like made trying to get them but
fail.
Yes, sometimes if I have not fed them for a while (i.e. My nutrient
level in the tank sometimes jumps up too high), then if one dies in
a moulted state then they cannibalise it.
As for the juveniles, although I have bred a lot there is a significant
level of cannibalism. Tanks is not the best way to growout. However,
for breeding, it has good control.
When I get around to going into production, I am planning on tanks
for breeding and 50 ponds for growout, with around 30 berried females
to a pond (may be more depending upon results) - this should provide
around 10000+ juveniles, of which most likely 50% would survive.
My original question was how to get a hand on those black worms,
as obtaining by a pet shop is an expensive way to produce commercial
crops.
Robert.
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Subject: Post harvest procedure
From: "Jay Myers"
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:08:41 -0600
Adriana
Can you tell me what you do from time you cut your crop til you give it to
the customer?
Thanks
Jay
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Subject: Re: Crayfish in tanks.
From: CAVM
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:13:10 EST
Robert,
If there is a market for the worms you seek, I think we can grow them for
you. We have been investigating vermiculture for some time and now would be
a good time to start.
Alternatively, we are building a plant in Iowa, and soon will in Georgia, to
process spent hens from the layer industry into 48% protein products for fish
feed rations, among other uses. I think that we can make a competitive fish
ration ingredient and perhaps a complete ration if there is sufficient demand
for the additional processing.
We would be glad to hear your thoughts. Of course it would be equally suited
for tilapia, trout, salmon and catfish feed ingredients as a substitute for
fish meal. Our production capacity will be for about 25,000 tons per year in
each plant.
Regards,
Cornelius A. Van Milligen
Iowa Protein Inc.
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Subject: Re: Crayfish in tanks.
From: "D.Bennett"
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:38:52 -0500
> and I have found they are very keen on black worms as well.
>
> My original question was how to get a hand on those black worms,
>
Just what kind of worm are the "black worms"? I've looked through many
sites that raise earthworms and/or red worms, etc. None of them mention
"black worms". What are they?
D.B.
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Subject: Re: Crayfish in tanks.
From: "D.Bennett"
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:40:27 -0500
>Alternatively, we are building a plant in Iowa, and soon will in Georgia,
to
>process spent hens from the layer industry into 48% protein products for
fish
>
What do you do to "process" a hen? Is it cooked? Ground or chopped up?
Whole?
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Subject: Re: Crayfish in tanks.
From: CAVM
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:46:49 EST
Without a better description I would guess that they are African
nightcrawlers. Just a guess however.
C. Van Milligen
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Subject: Re: Crayfish in tanks.
From: CAVM
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:54:00 EST
In a message dated 1/24/2000 9:45:57 PM Central Standard Time,
bennett@frognet.net writes:
<< >Alternatively, we are building a plant in Iowa, and soon will in Georgia,
to
>process spent hens from the layer industry into 48% protein products for
fish
>
What do you do to "process" a hen? Is it cooked? Ground or chopped up?
Whole? >>
These are processed using mechanical means to apply heat and pressure to the
ground whole bird. It is an approved alternative to traditional rending in
Iowa and Georgia. It produces a completely pathogen free feed ingredient
with no antibiotic carryover at all. We expect to blend with soybean meal in
order to dry to ingredients enough to be processed. Then they will be
thermally dried to 9% for storage.
Besides the 48% protein it will have about 11% fat. I can send you a
complete amino acid profile if you like.
We are attempting to compete with fish meal in the aquaculture diet but at a
much lower cost.
Cornelius A. Van Milligen
Iowa Protein Inc.
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Subject: RE: Crayfish
From: Robert WALKER
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 13:54:32 +1000
Cornelius,
The black worms that I talk of are water born species, aquarium
shops have them, and they have a tendency to bundle up really close.
As for the Chickens, what protection do you have in avoiding a
"Mad Cow" disease outbreak being passed on from chicken to fish to
human? There was a scare at one stage in Australia, about food
poisoning from Orange Juice and fish water being used as irrigation
to water the oranges.
Robert.
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Subject: Re: Crayfish
From: CAVM
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 23:14:51 EST
I hope you are kidding about the "mad cow" thing. Fish and crawfish eat
animal protien in the wild. Even worms eat animal protien.
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Subject: Re: Crayfish in tanks.
From: "D.Bennett"
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 23:14:56 -0500
>These are processed using mechanical means to apply heat and pressure to
the
>ground whole bird. It is an approved alternative to traditional rending in
So...you grind a whole bird, mix in soybean meal and extrude the
mix into pellets?
Is it cooked enough to eleminate disease carry-over such as the
mad cow type problems?
I think this is great. First that you're doing something with those
chickens, and second that you're trying to compete in the market
of providing fish food.
When considering setting up an aquaculture the thing that keeps
going through my head is "Where's the competition in the fish
food end of this enterprise? IF there's no competition, then the
prices could skyrocket as more of us go into the business."
Thank you.
D.B.
>Iowa and Georgia. It produces a completely pathogen free feed ingredient
>with no antibiotic carryover at all. We expect to blend with soybean meal
in
>order to dry to ingredients enough to be processed. Then they will be
>thermally dried to 9% for storage.
>
>Besides the 48% protein it will have about 11% fat. I can send you a
>complete amino acid profile if you like.
>
>We are attempting to compete with fish meal in the aquaculture diet but at
a
>much lower cost.
>
>Cornelius A. Van Milligen
>Iowa Protein Inc.
>
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Subject: Re: Post harvest procedure
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 23:29:22 -0500
> Can you tell me what you do from time you cut your crop til you give it to
> the customer?
Hi Jay,
Let me start from before the point of cutting:
1. Cut either in the early morning or late afternoon. This time of
year you can cut until 11 or 12 because the air is cool but in the
summertime you will need to be done by about 10 or 10:30 or you'll have
wilted greens.
2. I cut with Fiskars scissors (spring-loaded grey-handled 12" models
from the fabric store work better than the orange-handled models).
Before you cut spray them with a dilute chlorine mix to disinfect the
blade. I cut from right to left, it's much quicker going in that
direction if you're right-handed.
3. I cut into 3 or 5 # Rubbermaid baskets (I've tried laundry hampers
with mesh bags but the baskets work better for several reasons) Try to
keep it shaded as you cut (not so critical right now but wait a few
months and see. You can keep a cloth over most of the basket, leaving
enough space to put in your fresh cuts.
4. As soon as I have a full basket I put the greens into the cooler
into my home-made "cooling tunnel". Basically I have a square box fan
($12 at Walmart) at one end of the middle shelf of what looks like a 5
ft long wooden work bench. The back is sealed with heavy plastic and I
have a clear plastic drop curtain in front - this makes the tunnel. I
spray a light mist of H2O on the top and sides of the basket, then put
the basket of greens in the tunnel for at least 15 minutes. Don't let
it stay in the tunnel more than 30 minutes however, or the top layer may
get a bit dehydrated. At this point you can put the basket elsewhere in
the cooler for 1-2 hours - I mist it again after pulling it out of the
tunnel.
5. For most greens the ideal post-harvest temperature is 32 degrees,
basil should not go below 45, (more on that later). The forced air
cooling will get the field heat out of the greens very quickly, at which
point it is ready to box up. Passive cooling (where you just put the
cut greens in a cooler without pulling the air through) is much slower.
Research has shown that getting the greens cooled within 1 hour of
cutting is THE single most important component of shelf life for
produce. In the case of baby greens I think the window is even tighter
- more like 20-30 minutes. I try not to let a cut basket ever sit
around outside of the cooler.
6. I do not wash my greens for several reasons: a.) I don't have the
facilities, but more importantly, b.) it affects the shelf life since
the added handling inevitably damages some of the tissue and the product
suffers c.) it adds a lot more labor and time to the process. Some
people rinse the greens in ice-cold water for both cooling and washing
purposes (called hydro cooling) then spin them dry either in a salad
spinner (expensive contraption from Johnny's which only holds 5 gallons)
or an old washing machine with the spindle removed, run on the spin
cycle. I occasionally have done this when I absolutely needed to but
still think the greens get damaged. Sometimes a disinfectant is added
to the wash water - it can be chlorine (OK with me and cheap), Gail Hall
on the West Coast uses a grapefruit extract. I think Paula and Tom
don't wash theirs.
7. Once the greens are cooled it is time to package it. Before I cut I
estimated how much of each variety I needed based on a semi-standard mix
I want to achieve (for example 30% red lettuce, 20% mizuna, 20% tatsoi,
15% frisee, 15% bull's blood). The beauty of the Rubbermaid baskets is
that the large ones hold about 5# when full and the small ones hold 3#
so I can eye-ball approximate volumes as I cut. I weigh each basket
before it goes in the cooler to keep track of how I'm doing.
8. I use paraffin-lined boxes which hold 5# from Monte Packaging, lined
with a plastic bag (about 35 gallon size, I believe). The industry
standard for salad mix is 3# boxes but I couldn't find a source for them
without going to a custom box so I decided to go with the 5# box from
Monte and it has been a good decision - the greens don't suffer from too
much weight, the size seems OK for most restaurants and for me it is
almost half the handling, packaging cost, etc.
9. If it is salad mix I am producing I lay out the number of boxes I am
packing and distribute each variety into the boxes approximately. If I
have 5# of red lettuce and four boxes, roughly 1/4 of the basket goes
into each box. Then I repeat the distribution with my other mix
ingredients until I have used them all up. At this point I mix the
ingredients in the box gently with my hands. I weight the boxes and
adjust to exactly 5#. I twist the bags closed, gently pushing the
excess air out of it in the process. I use wire ties for those
customers who returns my boxes when I deliver. I have an electronic
"legal-for-trade" scale that I bought from a guy in Orlando who buys
UPS' surplus equipment.
10. Once it is boxed up, the product goes back into the cooler until
delivery. I label the contents onto he side of the box with a permanent
marker and I used to put the cutting date on the bottom of the box, but
not any more since my stuff is not sitting around anywhere in the chain.
I make sure the AC is running in the van when I'm delivering and it is
fine since it usually takes me 30-45 minutes to make all my deliveries.
11. If you can possibly work it with your customers, arrange to have
them accept delivery between 2 and 5 pm and they will have the freshest
product possible for dinner. This allows you to cut in the morning and
deliver to the restaurants after their lunch rush. If they have to have
delivery in the morning it will have to be between 8 and 11, in which
case you will need to pick late in the afternoon or VERY early in the
morning.
Basil is handled a little bit differently since it can't handle the
cold. It is important to bag it right after picking and keep it in the
shade. If you don't seal the bags it will wilt fairly quickly. I just
keep it in the shade in the packing area and it holds fine. You may
consider putting it in a large cooler with some ice, taking care to not
let the product touch the ice. Other herbs can handle cooling and go
into gallon-sized zip-lock bags.
I hope this helps, feel free to ask more questions. I'm a believer in a
chain of helping hands - people have helped me get to where I am and now
it's my turn.
(By the way I ate my first strawberry last week - it was fabulous! I
have few more that should be ready tomorrow.) How was the second week
of U-Pick? Do you have any leftovers for jam?
Adriana
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Subject: Re: Crayfish in tanks.
From: CAVM
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 23:25:23 EST
In a message dated 1/24/2000 10:20:32 PM Central Standard Time,
bennett@frognet.net writes:
<< of providing fish food.
When considering setting up an aquaculture the thing that keeps
going through my head is "Where's the competition in the fish
food end of this enterprise? IF there's no competition, then the
prices could skyrocket as more of us go into the business."
Thank you. >>
I have raised catfish in cages myself before I joined this firm. I know what
the cost of feed did to my budget. It is our intention to offer an
alternative to fish meal for aquaculture. Research has shown that this
ingredient will replace 45% of a tilapia diet and even more of a salmon diet.
We think that commercial fish farmers will like it.
Regards,
Cornelius A. Van Milligen
Iowa Protein Inc.
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Subject: Re: Crayfish
From: "Donald W. Trotter"
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 20:30:10 -0800
I think that the "black worms" you are speaking of may be Tubifex worms.
These are commonly sold in pet stores as live food for fish and are freeze
dried by processors. I'm not sure who processes the worms but Wardley's,
Tetra, and just about every other fish food manufacturer has them. I think
the best place to locate a source is through a mom and pop pet store that
handles tropical fish. They probably get probably get their worms from a
local source.
Hope this helps,
Don
At 11:14 PM 01/24/2000 EST, you wrote:
>I hope you are kidding about the "mad cow" thing. Fish and crawfish eat
>animal protien in the wild. Even worms eat animal protien.
>
>
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Subject: Re: Crayfish in tanks.
From: "Sam Levy"
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 20:51:47 PST
d.b.,
i suspect that you'll find that there is competition in the aquaculture feed
industry & that one of the main cost drivers is the cost of
protein--especially fishmeal
sam
>When considering setting up an aquaculture the thing that keeps
>going through my head is "Where's the competition in the fish
>food end of this enterprise? IF there's no competition, then the
>prices could skyrocket as more of us go into the business."
>Thank you.
> D.B.
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