Aquaponics Digest - Tue 01/25/00
Message 1: Re: Post harvest procedure
from "Jay Myers"
Message 2: Re: Post harvest procedure
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 3: Re: Crayfish in tanks.
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 4: Re: Crayfish in tanks.
from "TGTX"
Message 5: Re: Crayfish in tanks.
from "D.Bennett"
Message 6: Re: Crayfish in tanks.
from CAVM
Message 7: Re: Van Milligen's spent layers for fish feed
from Carolyn Hoagland
Message 8: Re: Van Milligen's spent layers for fish feed
from CAVM
Message 9: Re: Van Milligen's spent layers for fish feed
from mmiller@pcsia.com
Message 10: Re: Van Milligen's spent layers for fish feed
from CAVM
Message 11: In case you don't get enough e-mail...
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 12: Re: Crayfish in tanks.
from "TGTX"
Message 13: Re: Crayfish
from Marc & Marcy
Message 14: Re: Crayfish
from "Frank Stancato"
Message 15: Re: Van Milligen's spent layers for fish feed
from Marc & Marcy
Message 16: Re: Post harvest procedure
from "Jay Myers"
Message 17: Re: Post harvest procedure
from MUDDTOO
Message 18: Re: Iowa Protein's spent layers for fish feed
from CAVM
Message 19: Re: Van Milligen's spent layers for fish feed
from "D.Bennett"
Message 20: Re: Iowa Protein's spent layers for fish feed
from "TGTX"
Message 21: Re: Van Milligen's spent layers for fish feed
from mmiller@pcsia.com
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| Message 1 |
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Subject: Re: Post harvest procedure
From: "Jay Myers"
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 00:24:13 -0600
WOW!
Was hoping for a paragraph or two. You can get a Masters thesis started
here. Thanks.
>4. As soon as I have a full basket I put the greens into the cooler
Q-is this cooler at your greenhouse - did I miss seeing it? Sounds like a
large cooler!
re: u-pick - had a poorer week-end than the first - had hoped for more word
of mouth than I got, so I have a real crop of berries on now. Have picked
some for samples to my better restaurants, as well as some lettuces. Our
local wholesale guy is at $12.50/flat, or $2.05/lb for fruit that is not as
good or fresh as mine, so if I have to go with some of that I can. Have
been putting U-pick posters with digital pictures up at the better condos,
and that is starting to work. Weather is awful here so that is not helping
either.
Glad to hear youy berries are getting there.
Thanks again
Jay
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Subject: Re: Post harvest procedure
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 05:52:17 -0500
> Q-is this cooler at your greenhouse - did I miss seeing it? Sounds like a
> large cooler!
Yes, there is a small walk-in cooler at the greenhouse, about 4' x 6'.
It is an essential part of a salad mix operation, but one often
overlooked in the planning stages. Didn't you mention that you had a
source for used refrigerated shipping containers?
Adriana
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| Message 3 |
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Subject: Re: Crayfish in tanks.
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 05:54:55 -0500
> Is it cooked enough to eleminate disease carry-over such as the
> mad cow type problems?
I believe in a previous discussion of mad cow disease it was pointed out
that the pathogens that cause it can survive the cooking process. When
the archives become searchable you might want to look into it.
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Subject: Re: Crayfish in tanks.
From: "TGTX"
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 06:48:54 -0600
>
> Besides the 48% protein it will have about 11% fat. I can send you a
> complete amino acid profile if you like.
>
> We are attempting to compete with fish meal in the aquaculture diet but at
a
> much lower cost.
>
> Cornelius A. Van Milligen
> Iowa Protein Inc.
Cornelius, I would appreciate a complete amino acid profile of your fish
feed.
But please send that to me privately as I suspect this is getting close to
the sales and advertising arena which is only periodically allowed on this
list (the 15th of each month as I recall)...which is a good thing, by the
way, in my opinion.
Ted
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Subject: Re: Crayfish in tanks.
From: "D.Bennett"
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 08:28:23 -0500
>I have raised catfish in cages myself before I joined this firm. I know
what
>the cost of feed did to my budget. It is our intention to offer an
>
So, tell us about the catfish. Can this be fed to them?
What are the pros and cons of raising catfish for a
hydroponic greenhouse setting? Is it feasible at all?
What "firm" are you part of? (Is that a "kosher" question?)
D.B.
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Subject: Re: Crayfish in tanks.
From: CAVM
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 09:34:50 EST
D.B.
My farming partner is the local high school ag teacher and we try different
things for projects from time to time. For several years we used our farm
ponds to raise catfish in plastic wire cages that floated in the pond. With
feed conversions near 1:1 we did very well with the catfish. Feeding them
amounted to rowing out in a small skiff to spread feed onto the lids of the
cages. Later we used a dock to walk out to tend the cages.
Harvesting was done with a dip net and we harvested as customers came to us
seeking fresh catfish. ( I often wonder what our harvest would have been
without thieves. Several persons expressed their disappointment at our
discontinuing this project since they had easy access to our fish).
We were very pleased with the results of this project over the 4-5 years that
we did it. Now that we have an option for more economical feed ingredients,
we intend to try it again at a larger scale. The loading capacity of the
pond limited our production due to oxygen and ammonia levels in the water.
We did not aerate in the previous project.
I am now part of Iowa Protein Inc. which manufacturers the feed ingredient
using the whole poultry and soybean meal. We have hired the former
aquaculture specialist from Cornell Univ., Bob LaDue, to formulate a ration
for circulating tank aquaculture using our protein ingredient.
Hope this helps.
Cornelius A. Van Milligen
Iowa Protein Inc.
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| Message 7 |
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Subject: Re: Van Milligen's spent layers for fish feed
From: Carolyn Hoagland
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 14:35:57 -0500
Cornelius A. Van Milligen wrote:
> >I hope you are kidding about the "mad cow" thing. Fish and crawfish eat
> >animal protien in the wild. Even worms eat animal protien.
Of course we are *not* kidding. Fish and crawfish in the wild do not eat chickens
which have been eating "protein meal" which is often rendered from diseased beef,
pork, sheep and chicken.
The JCD prion/carrier has been proven to cause mad cow disease when properly rendered
downer cows and sheep were fed to healthy animals as a protein supplement. My
understanding is that biologists aren't even really sure what kind of thing a prion
is. It doesn't seem to be "alive" like a virus or a bacteria, and it is especially
small, just a tiny little protein. Standard rendering practices do not alter its
structure. When this tiny little protien is introduced into the healthy animals
diet, bad things happen.
And it is an expensive problem too. Ask the farmers in the UK who were forced to
destroy their herds of cattle and sheep....
Carolyn (I seriously worry about everything!) Hoagland
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| Message 8 |
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Subject: Re: Van Milligen's spent layers for fish feed
From: CAVM
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:46:35 EST
Carolyn,
Just to put your worries to bed, I want to say tha the feed ingredient we are
discussing making available for fish feed rations is made from whole poultry
and soybean meal. It is not made from beef or sheep or any part thereof.
Cornelius A. Van Milligen
Iowa Protein Inc.
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| Message 9 |
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Subject: Re: Van Milligen's spent layers for fish feed
From: mmiller@pcsia.com
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 16:54:03 -0600
What is the source of the proteins used in the poultry feed fed to the
whole poultry you use? Mike Miller
At 15:46 25-01-00 EST, you wrote:
>Carolyn,
>
>Just to put your worries to bed, I want to say tha the feed ingredient we
are
>discussing making available for fish feed rations is made from whole poultry
>and soybean meal. It is not made from beef or sheep or any part thereof.
>
>Cornelius A. Van Milligen
>Iowa Protein Inc.
>
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| Message 10 |
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Subject: Re: Van Milligen's spent layers for fish feed
From: CAVM
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:32:24 EST
Mike,
I don't have a ration description for the laying hens. I know that they are
fed corn and soybean meal. I would think that it is a standard laying
ration. There are 25,000,000 layers in Iowa and we will process more than
half of them when their laying life is over.
Poultry in one form or another is a pretty standard ingredient in pet food
and fish feed. Whether it is whole poultry or poultry byproducts it is a
nutritious and safe feed ingredient. Ours will be whole poultry. One of
your members has asked for and received a complete nutrition analysis. I can
provide the same to who ever wants it.
I think that reducing the cost of your fish feed is a worthwhile goal and we
are pleased to be of help in this.
Regards,
Cornelius A. Van Milligen
Iowa Protein Inc.
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| Message 11 |
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Subject: In case you don't get enough e-mail...
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 19:25:24 -0500
I found this over on the gardenweb forum:
Announcing the Market Farming discussion group.
-----------------------------------------------
At last, a truly practical, production-oriented mailing list for farmers
of small acreage, owned and administered by farmers of small acreage.
The challenges of making a living providing food and fiber to
consumer-direct markets from small acreage are different from those of
large landholders both in scale and scope...
For more information go to
http://www.gardenweb.com/forums/load/market/msg0108375815659.html
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| Message 12 |
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Subject: Re: Crayfish in tanks.
From: "TGTX"
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:55:12 -0600
>
> When I get around to going into production, I am planning on tanks
> for breeding and 50 ponds for growout, with around 30 berried females
> to a pond (may be more depending upon results) - this should provide
> around 10000+ juveniles, of which most likely 50% would survive.
>
> My original question was how to get a hand on those black worms,
> as obtaining by a pet shop is an expensive way to produce commercial
> crops.
>
>
> Robert.
>
In Prawn Park in Taupon, New Zealand, Macrobrachium rosenbergii, the
freshwater prawn, is reared in geothermally heated effluent raceways and
ponds on a mixed diet included scrambled eggs and clam meat. Get to
thinking about that for a polycultured aquaponics greenhouse system.....I
think I can already hear those wheels turning and the neurons firing out
there...
If by black worms you mean "blood worms".....these are often used in
maturation aquaculture systems for breeding shrimp and other species because
of their fatty acid and lipid profiles and also just because of their proven
effect on fertility and maturation in female decopoda. The only supplies
of those annelids (in the continental U.S.) that I am aware of is Maine,
because these critters are harvested from the wild from cool climate coastal
peat bogs or something like that. No indoor culture that I know of.
Ted
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Subject: Re: Crayfish
From: Marc & Marcy
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:07:50 -0700
CAVM wrote:
>
> I hope you are kidding about the "mad cow" thing. Fish and crawfish eat
> animal protien in the wild. Even worms eat animal protien.
The gizmo in "Mad Cow Syndrome " is different enough from a
standard protein that it has been named a prion. It survives
temperatures and chemicals that formerly worked but now
higher temperatures, increased cooking time and stronger
chemical brews are required to destroy the prion. If you
want additional information email me directly and I'll email
you the sites I have concerning prions.
Marc
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Subject: Re: Crayfish
From: "Frank Stancato"
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 21:05:02 -0500
If you are going to use Tubifex check out the connection listed below. The
Krib (http://www.thekrib.com/) will give you a lot of information on
tropical fish and diy hardware for the hobby.
http://www.gsas.org/Articles/1997/tubifex.html
Frank
----- Original Message -----
From: Donald W. Trotter
To:
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2000 11:30 PM
Subject: Re: Crayfish
> I think that the "black worms" you are speaking of may be Tubifex worms.
> These are commonly sold in pet stores as live food for fish and are freeze
> dried by processors. I'm not sure who processes the worms but Wardley's,
> Tetra, and just about every other fish food manufacturer has them. I think
> the best place to locate a source is through a mom and pop pet store that
> handles tropical fish. They probably get probably get their worms from a
> local source.
>
> Hope this helps,
> Don
>
>
>
> At 11:14 PM 01/24/2000 EST, you wrote:
> >I hope you are kidding about the "mad cow" thing. Fish and crawfish eat
> >animal protien in the wild. Even worms eat animal protien.
> >
> >
>
>
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Subject: Re: Van Milligen's spent layers for fish feed
From: Marc & Marcy
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 19:00:44 -0700
CAVM wrote:
>
> Mike,
>
> I don't have a ration description for the laying hens. I know that they are
> fed corn and soybean meal. I would think that it is a standard laying
> ration. There are 25,000,000 layers in Iowa and we will process more than
> half of them when their laying life is over.
>
> Poultry in one form or another is a pretty standard ingredient in pet food
> and fish feed. Whether it is whole poultry or poultry byproducts it is a
> nutritious and safe feed ingredient. Ours will be whole poultry. One of
> your members has asked for and received a complete nutrition analysis. I can
> provide the same to who ever wants it.
>
> I think that reducing the cost of your fish feed is a worthwhile goal and we
> are pleased to be of help in this.
>
> Regards,
>
> Cornelius A. Van Milligen
> Iowa Protein Inc.
Hi Cornelius,
The questions and worry about food chain accountability is
due to the standard or normal way of doing things being the
problem with Mad Cow Disease or prions.
I don't think anyone has any doubt as to your feed having
excellent food value but the nutritional analysis is not
relevant toward satisfying this question and is another
subject.
Prions have been shown to be resilient above and beyond the
ability of STANDARD processing techniques to destroy. This
is why the question of "where did the food come from" is
EXTREMELY important ALL the way down the food chain to
satisfy this question.
Inter species pathogen transfer previously thought
impossible has evidence to show it occurred with Mad Cow
Disease and the various manifestations of the disease are
horrific.
I suggest that familiarity with the prion concept and Mad
Cow Syndrome will show you where the concern about prions
comes from and why standard agricultural practices and
processing techniques are not a comforting answer.
Marc S. Nameth
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Subject: Re: Post harvest procedure
From: "Jay Myers"
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 20:17:28 -0600
Yes - the fella that has 4 vert - i - grow houses in St. Augustine. I just
saw his # in my truck the other day. You want it ?
Jay
-----Original Message-----
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
Date: Tuesday, January 25, 2000 4:48 AM
Subject: Re: Post harvest procedure
>
>> Q-is this cooler at your greenhouse - did I miss seeing it? Sounds like
a
>> large cooler!
>
>Yes, there is a small walk-in cooler at the greenhouse, about 4' x 6'.
>It is an essential part of a salad mix operation, but one often
>overlooked in the planning stages. Didn't you mention that you had a
>source for used refrigerated shipping containers?
>
>Adriana
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Subject: Re: Post harvest procedure
From: MUDDTOO
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 22:11:31 EST
In a message dated 1/25/00 2:47:59 AM Pacific Standard Time,
gutierrez-lagatta@home.com writes:
> Didn't you mention that you had a
> source for used refrigerated shipping containers?
>
Check out http://www.industrydeals.com/content/industrydeals/ for used refer
containers. I bought some electronic from this bunch and was happy with the
results. Be careful to note where the stuff is. You'll pay the shipping to
get it home.
Joel
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Subject: Re: Iowa Protein's spent layers for fish feed
From: CAVM
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 22:32:51 EST
Marc
I agree that BSE has changed many things in the feed business. We are
sensitive to the possible contamination of feed with this and other
pathogens. We also know where every bird used in our ration comes from.
These are the hens used to lay the eggs that are on the dinner table and in
the cake mixes. They are raised with more care to their health, nutrition
and well being than any other fowl that ever lived.
No indication of any contamination of the eggs, the birds or their feed has
ever been found from any contaminate that cannot be destroyed by heat. And I
recognize the indestructibility of BSE but if it is not there it does not
have to be destroyed.
These birds are fed the highest quality feeds and are treated with the
sanitary conditions necessary to produce eggs that are sold on the open
market without reservation. They deliver about 260 eggs each year per bird
on farms that have over 2 million birds per farm, and over 25,000,000 birds
in the state of Iowa alone. No chance is given to an opportunity for
contamination. It would be ruinous to the industry and we all have learned
from England, France and Belgium.
These birds are also processed into human food at other facilities, not by us
though. We process pet food and fish feed ingredients from birds that are
the overflow of those scheduled to be made into human feed. From the same
houses, the same farms, just too many to all go to the human food processor.
I want to assure you that these birds are carefully treated, housed and fed.
No opportunity is given for contamination. Our facility has quality control
measures set up by one of the premier testing labs in the country. Nothing
is taken for granted or left to chance. All processes are carefully
controlled and monitored. We do not take our responsibilities lightly.
We are aware of feeding prohibitions of mammalian and ruminate byproducts.
We have nutritionists specializing in poultry feed, fish feed, and cattle
rations all analyzing our product and reviewing samples taken of the feed we
produce. We have a joint venture with a high end dog food manufacturer who
uses our process and our birds to make a premier dog food.
I think that the conditions we establish and the quality control we utilize
assures that the highest standards are met in the production of the birds and
the processing of our ingredients. This product is marketed as a feed
ingredient to country's largest and best know feed producers.
There has never been any suggestion or hint of any problem in either the
birds or in how we utilize them. If you or any other buyer wishes us to test
for BSE in their ration, we will do so. We will do what ever is necessary to
assure our customers that they are getting a clean, pathogen free, nutritious
feed ingredient.
I hope that this helps clear up the chain of feed ingredients and our
commitment to providing safe feed for your fish and prawns.
Cornelius A. Van Milligen
Iowa Protein Inc.
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Subject: Re: Van Milligen's spent layers for fish feed
From: "D.Bennett"
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 22:56:47 -0500
----->nutritious and safe feed ingredient. Ours will be whole poultry. One
of
>your members has asked for and received a complete nutrition analysis. I
can
>provide the same to who ever wants it.
>
Please send me the nutrition analysis.
Thank you.
bennett@frognet.net
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Subject: Re: Iowa Protein's spent layers for fish feed
From: "TGTX"
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 23:20:55 -0600
> There has never been any suggestion or hint of any problem in either the
> birds or in how we utilize them. If you or any other buyer wishes us to
test
> for BSE in their ration, we will do so. We will do what ever is necessary
to
> assure our customers that they are getting a clean, pathogen free,
nutritious
> feed ingredient.
>
> I hope that this helps clear up the chain of feed ingredients and our
> commitment to providing safe feed for your fish and prawns.
>
> Cornelius A. Van Milligen
> Iowa Protein Inc.
Hi Cornelius...if it matters one wit to you....I believe you, man! :>)
As nasty as BSE sounds (once it is consumed to the degree that it would
actually accumulate and begin to cause measurable effects in the human
body), I just wonder what is the incidence, that is, the frequency of
occurance of BSE or other damnable things that may be out there in nature
and/or out there in the industrialized worlds' food supply or
fodder-feed-meat supply chain?
I am more concerned about the risks associated with Salmonella and
Campylobacter and avian viruses that can jump to humans than about the risks
posed by prions simply because I know how abundant and ubiquitous those
other agents are in nature and in our food processing systems around the
globe...it doesn't make me so concerned that I stop eating my eggs and
chickens from the grocery store....maybe that's just cause I'm dumb as a
post and thus a likely victim of prions.
Are BSE prions as frequent in nature as Ebola outbreaks in the wild? As
frequent as the incidence of lyme disease in wild populations of deer? Or as
frequent as cometary ice balls striking little old ladies' cars in Spain? I
swear I am not being flippant about the BSE thing...I just really have no
idea how common it is. But I suspect it's like asking how many meals eaten
by every human being on the planet in the last 50 years did NOT result in
food poisoning....or spongiform encephilitis...or ergot poisoning? Who can
say for sure? I guess if those events were quite high in frequency, then
not many of us would be around to ponder that heavy question.
But I digress...I wanted to mention that feathermeal has been used as a fish
food ingredient for some time, so it sounds interesting to me this chicken
meat fish food you are developing.
As a springboard on this, I am of the opinion that you can raise tilapia on
a plant protein-based diet provided that the essential fatty acids, lysine,
methionine, and vitamins are provided. It has already been done with
various combinations of soybean meal, soy oil, linseed meal, corn gluten,
wheat middlings, and trace vitamins and mineral supplements. Ziegler
Brothers helped me formulate one such feed...there are a number of
combinations that have been tried with success. It's doable. Been published
in peer review journals. Some old boys from US Fish and Wildlife did a lot
of that work, and published it. Got those papers around here somewhere.
Anybody heard of International Ingredient Corporation in St. Louis, MO?
They produce and distribute specialty feed, aquaculture and pet food
INGREDIENTS from food industry by-products. For example.... dried whey,
brewers yeast (43% protein), rice gluten, dried egg products, corn starch,
etc.
Since egg production is close to fish production with respect to feed
protein to edible protein ratio or efficiency ranking, I like the idea of
exploring the use of poultry egg protein in the fish diet. That's why I
mentioned the scramble eggs and clam meat feed for the prawns in New Zealand
in an earlier post.
According to "Diet for a Small Planet" about 4.3 lbs of protein is fed to
chickens to produce 1 lb of egg protein for human consumption and about 3
lbs of protein is fed to fish to produce 1 lbs of fish flesh actually
consumed..not whole carcass weight you see, but edible protein. In other
words, you might acheive a 1.5 to 1 FCR (feed conversion ratio) for dry
pellet fed fish, but what is the bottom line in terms of the protein mass
balance at the point of the dinner plate where the consumer eats only the
fish filet and not the tail, guts and head?
Same consideration would hold for carcass weights of other livestock
animals.
Compare the above protein feed ratios to 4.4 lbs protein fed to produce 1 lb
of consumable dairy milk protein...5.5 lbs protein fed to produce 1 lb of
edible poultry meat protein, 8.3 lbs protein fed to produce 1 lb of edible
pork meat protein, and 21.4 lbs protein fed to produce 1 lb of edible beef
(bovine) protein....These do not take into consideration the use of the
inedible parts of these animal carcasses for other products...such as animal
feeds... where all the prions get a chance to promenade down Funky Broadway.
Even if these conversion ratios are not quite up to date and not quite
accurate now a days, the relative rank between the animal protein classes in
terms of efficiency are generally correct...That is, we can produce fish and
eggs for high qualiy ("complete") animal proteins for human consumption (and
do so by feeding them with more ecologically efficient plant proteins) more
efficiently than other kinds of livestock agriculture. Don't you think?
The plant protein sources for those feeds can include soybeans, linseed,
corn, algae...and even duckweed (anyone tried alfalfa... or Okra seed?). If
this is so, then it seems we could get a bigger economic and perhaps a
bigger ecological efficiency "bang for our buck" by emphasizing fish (and
other aquaculture animals with similar FCRs) and egg protein production in
our agriculture. Any comments on that line of thinking?
But I still like the whole chicken thing you are discussing here. Very
interesting.
Have a nice evening.
Ted
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| Message 21 |
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Subject: Re: Van Milligen's spent layers for fish feed
From: mmiller@pcsia.com
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 23:35:08 -0600
The reason for my question is that when I posted the email at the bottom of
this post to another list, I got a thougthful response from somebody in AR
who mentioned that there thought the eagles eating dead chicken thrown out
of the poultry houses was the source for this problem with their eagles.
I'm sorry I did not save the reply, - Actually, I was lucky to find my
post :>) At the very bottom of this post is another related post on this
subject.
This is another one of those areas where we don't have the answers but
should be on the lookout. Mike Miller
At 18:32 25-01-00 EST, you wrote:
>Mike,
>
>I don't have a ration description for the laying hens. I know that they are
>fed corn and soybean meal. I would think that it is a standard laying
>ration. There are 25,000,000 layers in Iowa and we will process more than
>half of them when their laying life is over.
>
>Poultry in one form or another is a pretty standard ingredient in pet food
>and fish feed. Whether it is whole poultry or poultry byproducts it is a
>nutritious and safe feed ingredient. snip
Sometime back, the local PBS station had to fill some time from some
commerical length programs being aired. Instead of running ads for
underwriters or upcoming programs, they ran a short film from Arkansas
about the Bald Eagle die offs occuring there. Bald Eagles are dying in
several west central lakes. No virus or bacterial cause was found in the
otherwise healthy birds. Only the brains were abnormal (white spots on the
slide, I think) and the eagles before dying were very uncoordinated and
staggered around. Coots, also exhibit this same disease, so the program,
suggested the Bald Eagles might be picking up the "disease" from eating them.
I thought, "the dying eagles stagger just like the cows in Britian, they
are no doubt eating dead diseased animals with similar symptons and no
known causative agent can be found : BINGO, there just might be a prion
disease for birds too " and moved on until NOVA reaired "The Brain Eater"
show which I had missed first time around. In the NOVA program, they were
looking at US cattle for a native version of BSE to little avail.
I don't know anything much about this area as I am an engineer by training
but the similarities are obvious even to the novice. Since the Arkansa
program ended with the mystery unsolved, I ask those of you on the list who
are experienced in this field, could a prion type disease explain the die
offs of Bald Eagles in Arkansas?
Another related post
Mike wrote:
: Also,if deer are being added to the rendering plant mix and the conjecture
: in the Boston Globe article turn out to be true that the TSE in deer has
: jumped to humans like the BSE did from the cattle in Britian, then could
: our poultry and swine industries ???which apparently still allow
: potentially infected meat byproducts in their feeds??? be the next
: carries of a TSE to humans?
I raise the question in this article that Prions have a long incubation
period. Cattle and sheep have a longer life span than poultry. How can we
be sure they are not carriers - the answer is we cannot. In my opinion BSE
is only one of the potential risks that we simply know too little about.
The use of casualty animals that have been treated has to also be a concern.
An expert in another country has told me that the rendering industry is very
poorly regulated and he is most concerned. Common sense tells me that we
should simply avoid these things. Consumers should have the right to know
what the animals were fed when buying their meat. We owe it to the animals
we are raising to ensure they are in optimum health and fed the best rations
that we can come up with.
As you will see from the focus of this article, I am involved in the Ratite
Industry - but the principals are the same for all species. I had one US
nutritionist tell me that I should not be speaking out on these products as
they have enabled the mass public to be able to afford meat on a regular
basis. That may have been true when the practice first started 40 or 50
years ago. Soymeal as a high quality protein source was not readily
available and the APPs were sourced from healthy animals at slaughter
plants.
In all these discussions it must never be overlooked that the situation has
arisen from consumer pressure to achieve their food as cheaply as possible.
==================================
ANIMAL BY-PRODUCTS IN RATITE DIETS
There have been many writings recently by Ratite feed companies, their
employees and nutritionists, about the use of Animal By-Products in
Ratite feeds - both pro and con. Most of these articles make reference
to many topics that are of great concern to me in our efforts to achieve
a sustainable market for our meat products.
Ostrich Meat`s greatest selling point is its health benefits as a red
meat. To feed them animal protein products from any source, in the light
of current evidence, does not in my opinion allow the industry to call
it a healthy red meat. I will return to this issue later.
Reference was made to the reasons being given for inclusion of' "carcass
meal" was as a result of research done in South Africa. As an Ostrich
Farmer in South Africa maybe this is an opportunity to provide a greater
understanding on the industry here.
Until 1993 the marketing of all ostrich products could only go through
one channel. Ostrich fanning had been conducted in an atmosphere of not
wishing too many ostriches to survive in fear of flooding the market.
Therefore maximum production was not a pre-requisite to formulating
rations. Many producers outside South Africa are not aware that hide and
feathers where the primary products and the meat was sold as a
by-product to the meat processing industry. It was not considered of
good enough quality to be sold fresh. That is why we still do not have a
developed ostrich meat market here in South Africa. For this reason
South Africa is NOT the ideal pattern to follow when developing feed
rations for high quality Ostrich meat, maximum production from breeder
birds, or maximum chick survivability.
To satisfy the hide and feather market a 14mth slaughter age was
considered the ideal. With meat quality and productivity NOT a
consideration. With deregulation came a number of new entrants to
Ostrich Farming in South Africa, these farmers have been looking to the
work done OUTSIDE South Africa as they were not satisfied with the feed
performance and information available from within South Africa. It
surprises me greatly that some US feed companies are trying to follow
South African recommendations.
At the First International Ostrich Meat Congress held at Oudtshoorn 12
months ago a clear message was sent to the industry. That message - if
we were to sell our meat we MUST ensure the quality is improved, that
the meat contains no animal by-products, no growth stimulants, no
routine use of antibiotics and all other "nasties" as perceived by the
consumer - OUR CUSTOMERS.
Following that meeting a number of our feed manufacturers here in South
Africa have listened to the message and now ensure that their feeds are
free of such products. Sadly not all yet.
Reference was made to the misconception that the animal by-products
impart an off-taste to the meat. This is NO misconception! The comment
has been made to me by a South African consumer on how he had recently
eaten Ostrich Meat and could taste the Fish Meal in the meat. He did not
like it. Have you ever been in a cold store where carcasses from animals
fed Fish Meal are hanging? It is more like walking into a fish store.
In other livestock, feeding onions and garlic will flavour the meat and
odour with onion and garlic. Alfalfa and Corn are neutral and do not
have strong flavours, but the total rations still needs to be a balanced
ration or odd flavours can result. Too much IRON in the diet from other
feedstuffs and minerals will cause Ostrich meat to taste somewhat like
liver. Liver is high in iron and that is why it has its distinct
flavour.
Meat quality - meat with off tastes, inconsistent texture, odd colour
etc. - was discussed at our most recent monthly South African Ostrich
industry meeting, it remains a problem to the development of our
industry. A pre-requisite to good quality meat in any species is fast
growth rates. The South African formulations were geared to obtaining
210 lbs at 12-14mths. These can be reached by 7mths with a well
formulated feed and in time, improved genetics combined with well
formulated feed will produce faster gains and larger birds. It is
interesting to note the improvements made in the last 7 years by Blue
Mountain Feeds Farmers - both in weight gains and overall production,
compared to the little change in 150 years of South African farming.
Whether or not animal by-products are legally allowed in the feed, we as
farmers have a responsibility and obligation NOT to use them in any of
our Ostrich livestock rations, including Breeders, as they will go to
slaughter someday and be turned into meat for our consumer. In the
light of the evidence about the health risks of Animal By-products in
animal feeds, we cannot continue to use them. Here a few examples why :
"The critical experiment came when Marsh inoculated scrapie infected
sheep brain into US cattle. [63] If you do this in England the cows go
mad, twitching [16] and kicking into a rabid frenzy. [12] But in
America, cows instead stagger to their deaths like downer cows do [65],
supporting the notion that a form of BSE is already here in the United
States."
"BSE has been able to infect and (therefore) kill cats, antelopes, and
even ostriches from presumably eating infected protein.[l]
Experimentally, one can give BSE to monkeys [56], pigs, mice, sheep,
goats [l], and chimpanzees. [8] There is no reason to believe that BSE
will not similarly infect humans. [8] So far, BSE has proven more
infectious than most other transmissible spongiform encephalopathies.
[39] In fact 6 out of 7 attempts to transfer the disease to different
mammalian species have been successful. [39] That does not bode well
for the human race."
"Spongiform encephalopathies are invariably fatal [29] neurodegenerative
[17] diseases. There is no treatment [55] nor cure. [18] The novel [3]
infectious agents evoke no immune response [50] and consequently slowly
accumulate [14] for an incubation period of up to 30 years. [60] You
can't detect them [28], isolate them [35], nor purify them. [13] In
fact, only an autopsy can tell if you ever even had them. [45] They
aren't viruses and they aren't bacteria. [66] The consensus is that
they are prions, or infectious proteins. [60] Without detectable DNA
nor RNA [41], not only does no one know how they replicate, but the
whole concept challenges the basic tenets of biology. [45]"
Last year the Nobel Prize in Medicine or Physiology was awarded to
Stanley B. Prusiner for his pioneering discovery of an entirely new
genre of disease-causing agents and the elucidation of the underlying
principles of their mode of action. The infectious particles that
Prusiner discovered, which he named prions (PREE-ons). are made of
protein and do not contain any genes or genetic material -- a detail
that distinguishes them from all other kinds of infectious agents such
as viruses, bacteria, fungi and parasites. Prusiner began his search for
prions in 1972, after one of his patients died from dementia resulting
from Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, the human equivalent of "mad cow"
disease. He has linked the prions to other degenerative brain disorders
including Altzheimers Disease and Kuru in humans and Scrapies in sheep.
Prusiner has showed that prion diseases can sometimes be passed from one
species to another. This work has taken 25 years. How can anyone be
absolutely sure that recycling Animal By-Products back into the food
chain is not building up further problems for the future that are still
unidentified? The answer is WE CANNOT.
Comment was made that bans on animal by-products only referred to sheep
and cattle products. This as a result of the link between transmission
from sheep to cattle. It must be remembered that cattle have a very much
longer life than swine or poultry. When reading the above and the still
unknown incubation time of some of these prions, can we be sure that
they are not present in swine and poultry, who do not live long enough
for such diseases to develop? The answer is WE CANNOT.
Before moving to South Africa I was a dairy farmer in the UK. Never did
I question what I was feeding my cattle. I trusted my feed company. When
the BSE outbreak hit - it was not the feed companies that where blamed
by the press even though they where the ones formulating the Animal
By-Products in the feed. The blame was attributed to us farmers for
being greedy and putting profit before our consumers health and safety
by allowing and purchasing feed with Animal By-Products in them.
It is clearly evident that the only way feed companies call be forced to
change their practices is from pressure from the farmers. The best
producing ostriches both here in South Africa and in the US are reared
on feeds free of any animal protein products. The technology to replace
Animal by-products in feeds has existed for over 30 years - there is NO
GOOD REASON for feed companies to be using these products as superior
bird productivity and meat quality can be better achieved without them.
My ideas and opinions are not intended to do damage to any livestock
industry whatsoever. In fact, my concern is to help livestock farmers
in general and ostrich ranchers in particular, by asking each to take
the RESPONSIBILITY for what your livestock is fed to protect YOUR
industry. There is enough evidence about the feeding of Animal
by-products to cause a health risk concern. It is the opinion of many
that there are FAR TOO MANY DOUBTS regarding the safe use of these
products. In the light of the evidence that is available farmers and
nutritionists have a RESPONSIBILITY and OBLIGATION NOT to use these
products in our animal feeds when the animal is used for human
consumption.
References
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