Aquaponics Digest - Wed 02/02/00
Message 1: Re: Introductions
from Vik Olliver
Message 2: Introductions
from Ray Schneider
Message 3: Re: Introductions
from "TGTX"
Message 4: Re: Introductions
from OHILIP N BURNETT
Message 5: Fw: Introductions
from "John Dalton"
Message 6: introductions
from laberge@cil.qc.ca (LABERGE MARC)
Message 7: Re: Introductions
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 8: RE: Introductions
from "William Brown"
Message 9: Re: Introductions
from "Joe Insana"
Message 10: Introductions
from "John Skellion"
Message 11: Re: Heat loss at night
from CAVM
Message 12: Re: Introductions
from Raul Vergueiro Martins
Message 13: Lettuce in floating rafts and fish in N03
from Ray Schneider
Message 14: Re: Lettuce in floating rafts and fish in N03
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 15: fish in nutrient and other mysteries
from Ray Schneider
Message 16: Re: fish in nutrient and other mysteries
from "D.Bennett"
Message 17: Re: fish in nutrient and other mysteries
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 18: just postulating...Re: fish in nutrient and other mysteries
from William Evans
Message 19: Re: Introductions
from Bertmcl
Message 20: S&S System
from "D.Bennett"
Message 21: Re: fish in nutrient and other mysteries
from Marc & Marcy
Message 22: Re: fish in nutrient and other mysteries
from Marc & Marcy
Message 23: Re: just postulating...Re: fish in nutrient and other mysteries
from Bagelhole1
Message 24: Re: Introductions
from "D.C., Cathy Dreger"
Message 25: Re: Introductions
from "KevinLReed"
Message 26: Re: Introductions
from "Dale Robinson"
Message 27: Re: fish in nutrient and other mysteries
from "Sam Levy"
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 1 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Introductions
From: Vik Olliver
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 20:49:56 +1200
Hi,
I'm an artist, programmer, satellite designer, part-time journalist and
incorrigible tinkerer. I'm designing hydroponic systems for use on the
Earth's moon as part of The Artemis Project (http://www.asi.org) and
feel that the only way to understand the problem is to get in there and
muck with it.
I'm doing an article on said work for The Growing Edge magazine
inbetween my "day" job and designing aerospace equipment.
Vik :v)
--
A member of The Olliver Family http://olliver.penguinpowered.com
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 2 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Introductions
From: Ray Schneider
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 07:00:58 -0500
<>
Since everyone is doing Introductions, I thought I'd chip in again with
mine. My name is Ray Schneider and I'm the Director of Engineering at a
small CATV Instrument company, ComSonics, nestled in the Shenandoah
Valley of Virginia. Almost four years ago I got interest in hydroponics
and started experimenting with it on the deck of my house. I was
hooked!
It is a great hobby and I've met many friends both in person and on the
listserv. I wrote an article about my first summer experience for
Growing Edge magazine and started writing other articles for them about
things like hydroponics in prision, growing lettuce commercially,
growing tomatoes in my basement through the winter.
A friend, Marlan Showalter has been interested in aguaponics for a long
time and sort of motivated me to learn about it. I don't have any fish
yet -- but like tomatoes, I like to eat them ... so I have a built in
interest. Still it would be primarily as a hobbyist. I'm also planning
to write some stories about aguaponics, if I ever find the time.
This list is a great place!
Cheers, Ray
<>
--
Ray Schneider
rschneid@shentel.net
On the Search for the PERFECT tomato.
Come See Me at:
http://www.user.shentel.net/rschneid
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 3 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Introductions
From: "TGTX"
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 06:26:48 -0600
> Where's local? What's your market and what kind of fish?
I have grown Tilapia in a warm climate. I encourage you to try Tilapia,
because I think you can keep them warm just about wherever you are. This is
not an insurmountable problem. Just build in thermal mass, insulation, and
back up heat into the greenhouse design equation.
> >2) Stock fingerlings and feed them for 12 months to a harvest size
> Would the recommended way be to stock each tank
> with the 250 fingerlings at the same time? I mean,
> you wouldn't want to put little ones in with bigger ones
> and then try and dip out just the big ones to harvest,
> right? The later might *extend the paycheck*. :-)
Again, D., I just fired this off the top of my head. Certainly you may wish
to stagger stock your crop. You also want to do that with your vegetables
or produce in the growing beds. Let's say you have 2 1000 gallon tanks.
Perhaps you stock 250 fingerlings in tank 1 in January, and 250 fingerlings
in tank 2 in June....you will have to work that out. I would not recommend
stocking fingerlings in with half grown fish all swimming together. Perhaps
some suspended cages for the little guys and girls for 6 months. Don't let
them get too crowded, but you would be impressed with the fish density you
can acheive with either Tilapia or Catfish in a well run, highly oxgenated
aquaponics system. I chose to use 0.25 lbs per gallon as a baseline for
you.
>
> >5) Assume feed to conversion ratio (FCR) is about 2 to 1.
>
> How much of an assumption is that? Is that a norm for
> catfish?
>
Oh, you might get 1.5 to 1....some report even better for greenwater culture
of Tilapia for example, but I would assume 2 to 1 or even 2.5 to 1. Start
with a conservative estimate, so that you can be happily "surprised" when
you do even better. If your waste removal and oxygenation is inadequate,
then you will "hit a wall" in the growth curve and you will not get those
fish past 0.5 lbs per fish
> >6) That means 2 lbs fish food results in 1 lb whole carcass fish flesh in
> 12
> >months.
> >7) Assume cost of feed is $0.30/ lb (high end of price spectrum).
> >8) Feed cost for 1 year = 2lb/lb x 250 lb x $0.30/lb = $150.
>
> Someone told me once that you can feed out catfish
> on not much more than just cornmeal. Is that so?
Sure, you can be creative and innovative in what you feed your fish. I have
tried many things. I would still rely on the convenience and "complete"
formula of commercial feed.
Again, I assumed you would use expensive pelleted feed for a complete diet.
My pellets averaged around 24 cents a pound, but that was because I was
buying in 50 lb bag quantities, rather than ordering bulk and having to
accomodate for long term temperature controlled feed storage, the cost of
feed storage space, the construction and maintenance of pest control and
losses due to waste, etc. You might find feed in a complete diet pellet as
low as 12 cents a pound, but, again, put a fudge factor on your assumptions.
> >9) Assume 500 ft^2 greenhouse to do this.
> >10) Assume 200 ft^2 growing bed of gravel, perlite, NFT,what have you.
>
> I think with 500 ft^2, I'd probably have 400 ft^2 of growing bed.
> Sounds strange, huh? Well....you see I live on steep hillsides.
> My GH will have to be terraced inside. Sound ridiculous, right?
> Okay, spare my feelings, let's go on...:-)
>
No, not ridiculous at all. I just came up with a rough estimate of 200 ft^2
for a grow bed size for a 1000 gallon tank and assumed you would want some
comfort and convenience of walking around the fish tank and growing beds.
Again, I assumed this was a hobby or home aquaponics system, so I figured
some luxury in space...an environment you can walk around in and just
breathe in the sense of satisfaction, or sigh over the sense of
responsibility and committment....depending on your perspective after you
have built this.
> >11) Assume 0.20 -0.50 lbs edible "produce"/ ft^2 / month(28-35 days)
> >12) Think about the range of $1 to $10 / ft^2 to build your 500 ft^2
> >>inventiveness, etc..so let's go with $5 / ft^2, which is still WAY high
in
>
> We've got under a dollar / ft^2 in my little 8x8, but it
> doesn't have hydro in it.
Yes, you can build almost any kind of structure, but I assume you also want
heaters, fans, perhaps evaporative coolers, water supply, electrical
circuits for lights and pumps, grow bed structures, fish tank(s), plumbing,
perhaps flooring of some kind, etc.
> >13) Assume $100/mo energy+water+debt service+consumables for the 500 ft^2
>
> Ouch! But a necessary burden to bear, I guess.
Again, this is pulling numbers out of the air. A wood stove can help.
Insulation and greenhouse design can help reduce energy costs. Just know
that there is always something that pulls money out of your pocket on a
recurrent basis that we can call expense or the cost of doing business, even
if you are not doing this to go into "business". Even an aquarium hobby has
expenses associated with it, if you want to keep things going, or especially
if you decide to turn your house into wall to wall aquariums...God help me.
> >The answer might be something like this:
> >1) 250 lbs of catfish/year which might be valued by you at $3.00/lb, or
>
> What's the market? I mean, do you usually sell at a local market,
> restaurants, individuals, a wholesaler, etc.? Do you sell whole,
> live or dressed?
>
I assumed you were the consumer. Sorry if I misunderstood, or if that is
not your plan.
Local Oriental Markets like live Tilapia delivered live in water tanks.
This is problematic. Some folks like to come out to the farm and buy the
fish right on the spot.
MY ADVICE IS : DO NOT CONSIDER PROCESSING YOUR FISH IN ANY WAY IF YOU ARE A
SMALL SCALE FISH FARMER WHO WANTS TO SELL HIS FISH.
Fresh whole fish on ice would be as far as I would go down that road...and I
mean fresh...like less than 3 hours out of the live tank. The reason for
that is this: The moment you cut, scale, skin, filet, gut or otherwise
process a fish for sale to the public, you become a seafood processor and
subject to regulation by the Food and Drug Administration. Not my idea of a
nice stroll in the park.
In fact, the FDA would likely consider just washing and packing the whole
fish on ice as "processing", so if I were you I would consider the Oriental
Markets for live sales, or having a local chef come out to your farm
periodically for live sales, that sort of thing.
> >2) 400 lbs of edible produce/year which you might value at $3.00/lb..etc.
>
> Is this number pulled out of the air or based on experience?
> $3./lb. seems kind of high to me, but then, I don't know a thing
> about it! I've only seen the grocery consumer side of it. :-)
Depends on what you grow and how much and how consistently (ie., do you want
to take a break every so often, do you want to go to the lake cabin or the
beach for a couple of weeks or stop doing the greenhouse thing for....the
summer...or the winter...you should ask yourself these kinds of things
before starting). Mesculn salad greens can sell wholesale at anywhere from
$3.00 /lb on up. I have sold salad greens to some customers for $8.00/lb
just because it was so good, so fresh, so healthy, so tasty, and because I
am so cute and such a nice young man. Grandma really didn't have to pay
that much, but who can argue with a stubborn 80 year old sweetheart on a
Mission from God? Of course, she secured an endless supply of FREE salad
greens from that point on... after only a small amount of mock resistance
that she simply couldn't take it for free.
> >"loss".....but it should "pay" for itself.....within 4 years...depending
on
>
> To tell you the truth, except for some kind of multi-level marketing
> scheme, or something like that, I don't know of too many businesses
> that would pay for themselves in 4 years. Am I wrong?
Well, yes it can happen. Depends on the debt load from capital investment
up front, economies of scale, and a million other factors....My advice is
start small. Start cheap. Scrounge and salvage and take it easy. Don't
get burned out. And don't go into a partnership. Let it be your own
creation rather than design and operation by committee. Period. Present
company accepted. Here we can collaborate and share some information.
Again, I guess I just tried to introduce the idea of a home operation. I
would not go into "business" with only 1 1000 gallon tank and 1 200 ft^2
grow bed. I have designed and operated a couple of systems...ranging from
small to medium size (1500 ft^2 on the small end, 8500 ft^2 on the medium
end...Gordon Creaser and others have designed and operated systems that are
FAR, FAR larger, so my experience doesn't even show up on their radar
screen...) Each of the aquaponics systems I have been involved with so far
had way too many people involved in the process, or perhaps the wrong
initial set of circumstances and mixtures of personalities, etc., so I am
going for my next system solo...nobody else but me, myself and I.
My next system will be a 3000 ft^2 greenhouse with about 4000 gallons of
Tilapia culture and another 5000 to 10,000 gallons to play with for
ornamental fish, crustaceans, and things that go bubble and bump in the
night...and about 2000 ft^2 of grow beds for various things ranging from
salad greens to water garden ornamental plants to landscape plants. I am
going to take it easy for a while. But then, that's just me.
> >entertainment/novelty, or how DESPARATE you are to grow the product for
>
> I worked in a plastics plant for 21 years, then got sold
> to a company with what I considered poor work ethics.
> I walked away from a very much above average
> income for my area, because I hated it so much
> and because I wanted to be HOME. Home for
> me is where my horses, goats, donkeys, dogs,
> hills and GARDEN are.
>
I'm with you D. Home is where the heart is.
Leave enough room in that greenhouse for a picnic table and a hammock.
Ted
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 4 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Introductions
From: OHILIP N BURNETT
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:18:03 -0600
Here goes!!!
I have subscribed to this lsitserv. for several months and I am
interested in raising tilapia someday. I have 40 achers in south west
Missouri. The land is rolling and mostly cleared. There are several low
areas that could be made into nice ponds or some sort of holding tanks
for raising fish. I have been introduced to tilapia at the local "SAMS"
store (free sample) and was pleased at the texture and taste of the fish.
I would like to tour the operation in south central MO. when I have the
time. I live in Saint Louis and tied to a regular job here, the 40
achers was more or less purchased as a retirement place, how ever I
would like to learn what I can so when the opportunity arrives, I can
make the decision to invest the time and effort. I am also interested in
the hydroponics aspect of the operation, the two go together very well
and it would be a shame to not take advantage of the benefits.
Thanks for taking the time to manage this listserv. this forum is of
great benefit to all that subscribe.
Philip Burnett/ Saint Louis, MO.
philipburnett@juno.com
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 5 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Fw: Introductions
From: "John Dalton"
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:29:48 -0600
> Subject: Re: Introductions
>
>
> >
> > ----- Hello all:
> > We're a retired couple who have settled in West Plains, MO, basically in
> > Paula's backyard.
> > We have a small B&B and have an interest in setting up a small
> > hydroponic/aquaponic system to provide both fresh fish and vegetables
for
> our B&B guests.> We were
> > trying to get our firstsmall greenhouse up this past summer, but didn't
> get the plans done in time.
> > This year we'll do both the small one and lay out the plans for a larger
> system.
> > We've subscribed to this list for months and have learned something from
> > everyone and are very appreciative for all the information and comments.
> > One question though - are there any aquaponics systems set up in Alice
> > Springs or Sydney Australia? John will be spending 6 weeks down under
> starting next week and
> > if he has time, he may be able to tour one of the sites.
> >
> > Thanks again for all the information.
> >
> > Laura and John Dalton
> > 1461 State Route BB
> > West Plains, MO 65775
> > john@victoria-gardens.com
> > www.victoria-gardens.com
> >
>
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 6 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: introductions
From: laberge@cil.qc.ca (LABERGE MARC)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 10:31:00 -0500
Hello all, My name is Marc Laberge I live up in Quebec near Mont Tremblant
a sort of Whistler resort on the east side of Canada ). While finishing off
my BSc at McGill University I had a chance to work with recirc systems for
many years in our lab, while becoming a fish parasitologist specialist. I
managed one of Quebec's largest fish farms , long enough to see the drastic
effects of fish farm effluent on what once was a beautiful lake 1 hour north
of Ottawa.
I also worked with the Cree community of northern Quebec for many years
conducting commercial fishery pilot projects determining quantity and
quality of fish belonging to the native communities.
On one hand I saw the nutrient rich waters of a fish farm being given to
algae in the lake and on the other hand I saw how fresh vegetables are so
hard to come by in the northern communities.
I am presently renting a house on a pay-per-inch fish farm belonging to one
of my ex-students. I have built a lab and am presently working on achieving
a balance between speckled trout , bacteria growth and lettuce/ fine herbs
crop . I use many of the tilapia equations which I must modify for trout and
bacteria at 15C (60F ). I am still analyzing markets and risk factors before
starting up a 12 tone commercial pilot project on this farm.
I am still amazed at how knowledge can be so quickly passed on via great
people and internet, thank you.
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 7 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Introductions
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 10:56:59 -0500
Ted,
I think you've given D some excellent advice. There's no substitute for
that slippery learning curve, but a group like this sure helps you to
steer around the many mine-fields...
> before starting). Mesculn salad greens can sell wholesale at anywhere from
> $3.00 /lb on up.
You should be able to get $5-6/# from restaurant customers IF, you are a
serious supplier who can provide quality greens on a consistent basis
(how to do that and still go on vacation I haven't quite figured
out...:>))
>I have sold salad greens to some customers for $8.00/lb
I sell 8 oz bags of greens to my neighbors for $4 and they are happy to
pay it, but to expand this to a larger group would imply greater
delivery expenses than a nine year-old on a bicycle...
> up front, economies of scale, and a million other factors....My advice is
> start small. Start cheap. Scrounge and salvage and take it easy. Don't
> get burned out. And don't go into a partnership.
Again, excellent advice, start small, minimize the up-front investment
and learn the technology, only then think about expansion. I find your
comment about partnerships interesting; I had thought that this is one
way around the difficulties of being on-duty 7 days/week 365 days/year.
But like any other partnership I suppose it is as tricky or more
difficult than keeping a marriage going happily. Does anybody have
experience running a commercial aquaponics or hydroponic operation with
a relative other than a spouse?
>
> My next system will be a 3000 ft^2 greenhouse with about 4000 gallons of
> Tilapia culture and another 5000 to 10,000 gallons to play with for
> ornamental fish, crustaceans, and things that go bubble and bump in the
> night...and about 2000 ft^2 of grow beds for various things ranging from
> salad greens to water garden ornamental plants to landscape plants.
Ted, it seems to me that the 2,000 sq ft of grow-bed will pretty much
fill up that greenhouse if you allow 1/3 of the space for circulation.
Do you plan to put the fish outside since in Texas that would not be a
problem? Or vice-versa, are the grow-beds going outside?
> I'm with you D. Home is where the heart is.
> Leave enough room in that greenhouse for a picnic table and a hammock.
The greenhouse can be the epitome of serenity...except when you have 50#
of greens to pick by yourself in 3 hours, or the aphids take over, or
the pvc springs a leak or the cooler dies on a hot morning, etc, etc,
etc.... Still, I'll be hitting my one-year anniversary of setting up my
greenhouse this week and I love it!
Adriana
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 8 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: RE: Introductions
From: "William Brown"
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 06:01:33 -1000
Hi,
I'm William Brown on the Big Island of Hawaii, a commercial grower (7 years)
of hydroponic lettuce using the non-circulating raft system. I currently
have 4000 sq feet under plastic and am in the process of adding another 4800
sq feet this year. I expect to try other crops such as tomatoes, cucumbers,
peppers, salad greens, strawberries and corn. I would like to eventually
establish an organic lettuce system using fish or crustacean effluent. In
my extra time I help maintain computers, software and networks for my
children's school and several friends.
William Brown mahiwai@cmpmail.com
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 9 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Introductions
From: "Joe Insana"
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 11:59:33 EST
Hi Everyone,
I live in North Central Ohio, I basically lurk on this sight. I learn a lot
from just reading. I have a small tank (was 50 gallon but now I bought a
275 gallon used tote from a local bakery that I cut in half) with 35 tilapia
in my house ,the fish are averaging over a pound each. I did have a
hydroponics side but am now in the process of changing my system over to a
diffent design to better match the larger tank fish tank. This is my first
time with fish and I have found that tilapia is a good first fish to work
with. My next goal is to have a green house to do this in.
Joe Insana
>From: S & S Aqua Farm
>Reply-To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
>To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
>Subject: Introductions
>Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 18:41:55 -0600
>
>This list has been so quiet the last few days, I was beginning to think
>that
>EVERYONE had unsubscribed. But I checked the roster, and we're all still
>here:>)
>
>This might be a good time for those who are new to the list to post a short
>introduction and whatever question(s) are most important. Let us know a
>little about you and your plans (or status of your system); and if you have
>questions, post them as well. There is no shortage of expertise in the
>group, and I think we'll see some interesting discussion.
>
>Paula
>S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
>Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
>
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 10 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Introductions
From: "John Skellion"
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 10:00:45 -0700
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0049_01BF6D64.5FA3F100
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Everyone-
I'm trying to absorb all this new information but it's tough! My name =
is Darlene Skellion and I live in Rifle, CO , which is in Western =
Colorado. We have 40 acres at 6400 ft ( elevation means a lot here as =
far as weather) and Lots of sun. We just finished building our straw =
bale house and now it's time to tackle a new project. We've been wanting =
to aquafarm since reading about S&S in Growing Edge magazine in 1994.
We have a small attached greenhouse that I plan on expanding and putting =
in at least 3 beds for experimental purposes.We've become experts at =
recycling and selvedge while building our house so the cost of this =
initial start-up "should" be minimal. Our main concern at this point is =
heating at this altitude. It gets quite warm here during the day when =
it's sunny ( which is most of the time) but the nights are a different =
story. When it's clear the temp. can drop dramatically in minutes. I =
guess the only way to know for sure is install a tank and just monitor =
it. Does anyone out there have any experiences they can share?=20
This site is a treasure trove of information-thanks to everyone who =
contributes!!!=20
Darlene=20
skellion@sprynet.com=20
------=_NextPart_000_0049_01BF6D64.5FA3F100
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Everyone-
I'm trying to absorb all this new =
information=20
but it's tough! My name is Darlene Skellion and I live in Rifle, =
CO ,=20
which is in Western Colorado. We have 40 acres at 6400 ft ( elevation =
means a=20
lot here as far as weather) and Lots of sun. We just finished building =
our straw=20
bale house and now it's time to tackle a new project. We've been wanting =
to=20
aquafarm since reading about S&S in Growing Edge magazine in=20
1994.
We have a small attached greenhouse =
that I plan=20
on expanding and putting in at least 3 beds for experimental =
purposes.We've=20
become experts at recycling and selvedge while building our house so the =
cost of=20
this initial start-up "should" be minimal. Our main concern at =
this=20
point is heating at this altitude. It gets quite warm here during the =
day when=20
it's sunny ( which is most of the time) but the nights are a different =
story.=20
When it's clear the temp. can drop dramatically in minutes. I guess the =
only way=20
to know for sure is install a tank and just monitor it. Does anyone out =
there=20
have any experiences they can share?
This site is a treasure trove of=20
information-thanks to everyone who contributes!!!
Darlene
------=_NextPart_000_0049_01BF6D64.5FA3F100--
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 11 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Heat loss at night
From: CAVM
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 12:10:30 EST
John.
All of the work done on heat sinks should interest you. Saving the heat of
the day and radiating it back at night could work. Most of these rudimentary
systems involve heating rocks or barrels of water during the day and
extracting the heat at night.
Plus geothermal heating is a type of heat source from the earth such as we
use in heat pumps only they are land to air heating systems. This involves
the burying of heat exchanging pipes in the ground and retrieving the heat
from the earth.
Regards,
Cornelius A. Van Milligen
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 12 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Introductions
From: Raul Vergueiro Martins
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:23:21 +1300
S & S Aqua Farm wrote:
> This list has been so quiet the last few days, I was beginning to think that
> EVERYONE had unsubscribed. But I checked the roster, and we're all still
> here:>)
>
> This might be a good time for those who are new to the list to post a short
> introduction and whatever question(s) are most important. Let us know a
> little about you and your plans (or status of your system); and if you have
> questions, post them as well. There is no shortage of expertise in the
> group, and I think we'll see some interesting discussion.
>
> Paula
> S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
> Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
Hello Paula:
Really too few messages during the last days.
So, let me give you some work.
I'm looking for details in the production of alfafa using the aquaponics system.
Can you or anybody in the list help me?
Greetings
Raul Vergueiro Martins
rvm@sti.com.br
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 13 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Lettuce in floating rafts and fish in N03
From: Ray Schneider
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 13:27:27 -0500
Hi William -- a little off the aquaponics topic -- but do you circulate your
nutrient and oxygenate it for the plants? How do you do that? Also what
happens to fish in a hydroponics, nutrient rich solution? -- ex. 190 ppm of
nitrogen -- does that kill the fish?
Cheers, Ray
--
Ray Schneider
On the Search for the PERFECT tomato ...
Come See Me at http://www.user.shentel.net/rschneid
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 14 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Lettuce in floating rafts and fish in N03
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 13:35:20 -0500
> Hi William -- a little off the aquaponics topic -- but do you circulate your
> nutrient and oxygenate it for the plants? How do you do that? Also what
> happens to fish in a hydroponics, nutrient rich solution? -- ex. 190 ppm of
> nitrogen -- does that kill the fish?
Hi Ray, I know this question was asked a few weeks back with no answer.
I recall Gordon Creaser mentioning that at one of the installations he
worked with they had fish living in the nutrient with no apparent
harmful effects. This may have been fish in lettuce raceways to keep
mosquito larvae under control. The EC (electroconductivity = measure of
salts in solution) would probably be around 1800-2000.
Adriana
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 15 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: fish in nutrient and other mysteries
From: Ray Schneider
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 16:28:47 -0500
Hi Adriana -- I run a much higher EC growing tomatoes -- closer to 2800-3200, and
I know that high NO3 is bad for babies and pregnant women and I suppose for just
regular folks if given a steady diet of it, so I was wondering how fish handled it
and whether it had an effect on the edibility of the fish. It would make things a
whole lot easier if you could just throw fish in the nutrient tank. On the other
hand, if you apply light, you will get huge quantities of algae. However, part
of the whole idea is that you would have to add less nutrient if the fish
excrement was healthy for the plants. I wonder how the fish like the dark? As a
newbie I'm pretty much totally ignorant of the requirements of the fish. Also,
what about varmints -- fish presumable attract a range of parasites or other
organic ornamentation?
Cheers, Ray
Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta wrote:
> > Hi William -- a little off the aquaponics topic -- but do you circulate your
> > nutrient and oxygenate it for the plants? How do you do that? Also what
> > happens to fish in a hydroponics, nutrient rich solution? -- ex. 190 ppm of
> > nitrogen -- does that kill the fish?
>
> Hi Ray, I know this question was asked a few weeks back with no answer.
> I recall Gordon Creaser mentioning that at one of the installations he
> worked with they had fish living in the nutrient with no apparent
> harmful effects. This may have been fish in lettuce raceways to keep
> mosquito larvae under control. The EC (electroconductivity = measure of
> salts in solution) would probably be around 1800-2000.
>
> Adriana
--
Ray Schneider
On the Search for the PERFECT tomato ...
Come See Me at http://www.user.shentel.net/rschneid
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 16 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: fish in nutrient and other mysteries
From: "D.Bennett"
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 16:56:47 -0500
>newbie I'm pretty much totally ignorant of the requirements of the fish.
Also,
>what about varmints -- fish presumable attract a range of parasites or
other
>organic ornamentation?
>
Ray brings up a good point here....how do you treat
the fish parasites? Are the substances that are used
to rid the fish of parasites still safe for the plants?
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 17 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: fish in nutrient and other mysteries
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 17:16:35 -0500
Ray Schneider wrote:
>
> Hi Adriana -- I run a much higher EC growing tomatoes -- closer to 2800-3200, and
> I know that high NO3 is bad for babies and pregnant women and I suppose for just
> regular folks if given a steady diet of it, so I was wondering how fish handled it
> and whether it had an effect on the edibility of the fish. It would make things a
> whole lot easier if you could just throw fish in the nutrient tank.
Hey Ray?
Pssttt!!! Goldfish are cheap and we won't tell the PETA folks if you
try it. I would adjust them to their new environment by slowly
increasing the nutrient concentration over a few days to see what
happens.
You can also grow tomatoes with just fish effluent and no additional
nutrients. You probably will get a lower yield, however. One other
possibility is to set up a 2-tank system. One tank at the return from
the plants should receive fairly "clean" water from the growing tubes or
beds. This one could hold your fish. From there you could pump it to a
secondary tank which is amended with additional nutrients and pumped to
the plants.
Adriana
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 18 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: just postulating...Re: fish in nutrient and other mysteries
From: William Evans
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 14:29:33 -0800
> >
> Ray brings up a good point here....how do you treat
> the fish parasites? Are the substances that are used
> to rid the fish of parasites still safe for the plants?
Sounds like an application for grapefruitseed extract. Only prollem is
the GSE might
kill off any " bio beds", -maybe a weak enought concentration would
keep parasites
at bay and not affect the good N bacteria.
Ive mentioned this be4 but got no feedback.GSE is used as an
anti-fungal/viral/
bacterial/ parasitic... can be found in cosmetics, food, and in
agriculture. THe
sources of info I have avavilable dont mention uses in aquaculture, tho
all it
takes is one to try, maybe ther's an application..
billevans
who has no fish or biobeds to guinea pig GSE...
but use it on my dogs, cat, and self w/ no prollems
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 19 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Introductions
From: Bertmcl
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 18:24:59 EST
Hello Everyone this is a great list to be on.
I am Bert McLaughlin in New Kent,Va (25 miles east of Richmond, Va). For
years I have been interested in organic gardening. but never tried on a large
scale. Now after close to 8 yrs of reading,traveling and expermenting with
Aquaculture. I now am setting up an Aquaponics system along the S&S Aqua
system. I along with my Brother have tried many different ways of rearing
fish in recirculation systems, YES we have killed a lot of fish with our
mistakes, but that has been an advantage of being very,very small. Last year
I built a very,very low tech and low labor system for growing from birth to
fry and then to fingerlings and up to 1 lb of TILAPIA.
When I learned about the S&S system,even after getting the information from
Tom & Paula; I was not sure that the system would really work. I had a very
small greenhouse with about 1200 gallons water with different ages of Tilapia
so I took a 55 gallon Aquarium with 15 small Tilapia (about 1/4 lb) and put
in a little giant pump a timer and some plants that were dug up from the
garden and started the system going< I could not believe the growth of the
plants and the fish lived without any additional areation. Everything I was
told and read about the S&S system really worked. Next I built from scrap
material a 1' x 12' x 4" growing bed and again what a wonder -- Woody Plant
cutting taken in late November rooted and produced leaves in 45 days . My
next growing bed was 2'x8'x1' (becaused of limited space) . Lettuce seed
sowed 1/1/00 sprouted on 1/2/00, It now has Sugar
Peas,lettuce,kale,mustard.Tomato plants, and marigold flowers.
I am just waiting for the weather to improve so that I may start construction
on a 30'x50' greenhouse with full size beds and follow the S&S guideline.
Well thats enough about me, keep on writting I am learning a lot and look
forward to reading aboit others operations.
One last note DON'T START WITHOUT SOME SORT OF BACKUP POWER SYSTEM.
Bert
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 20 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: S&S System
From: "D.Bennett"
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 19:02:21 -0500
>plants and the fish lived without any additional areation. Everything I was
>told and read about the S&S system really worked. Next I built from scrap
>
Well, I haven't been told, and read only what I could find on the
internet page, so..... please, I'd like to know more about the
S&S System.
Your internet page sounds good, but I for one need to know
more. :-)
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 21 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: fish in nutrient and other mysteries
From: Marc & Marcy
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 18:08:48 -0700
Adrianna wrote:
..snip..
>
> Hey Ray?
>
> Pssttt!!! Goldfish are cheap and we won't tell the PETA folks if you
> try it.
..snip..
I killed around a hundred goldfish in four batches before I
figured it out. My current Colorado comet crop is in water
that has a TDS over 4500 (limit of my meter). Yes, my well
water has a bit of mineral content.
Marc
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 22 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: fish in nutrient and other mysteries
From: Marc & Marcy
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 18:26:17 -0700
"D.Bennett" wrote:
>
> >newbie I'm pretty much totally ignorant of the requirements of the fish.
> Also,
> >what about varmints -- fish presumable attract a range of parasites or
> other
> >organic ornamentation?
> >
> Ray brings up a good point here....how do you treat
> the fish parasites? Are the substances that are used
> to rid the fish of parasites still safe for the plants?
A couple of non controversial things maybe useful, maybe
not.
Much effort is made in almost any fish raising book about
the effect of stressing fish and the resulting diseases and
parasites.
Common stressors are rapid changes in just about anything
such as overfeeding, temperature, pH, dissolved gases, the
character of the water, chlorine. (common stressors, sounds
like a bird, a cousin of the lesser and greater stressor :>
)
Many medicines used to treat fish parasites or diseases are
illegal for fish intended for human consumption.
Salt and higher than normal water temperature can be used as
effective and sometimes the best medicinal techniques for
some diseases and parasites.
Usually damp to wet anymore,
Marc
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 23 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: just postulating...Re: fish in nutrient and other mysteries
From: Bagelhole1
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 21:05:31 EST
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 24 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Introductions
From: "D.C., Cathy Dreger"
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 21:27:46 -0500
Introduction. I'm a development officer for a liberal arts college, doing
marketing, raising funds and thinking about the future of our institution.
Cathy is an administrative assistant (read: runs the joint) for an nonprofit
attached to the college that seeks to provide micro-economic development
projects as part of their Christian ministry. We've thought of hydro- and
aquaponics as valuable tools to use in 3rd and 4th world countries in the
process of not just teaching a man to fish, but teaching him to raise fish
and greens. I'm looking forward to reading the (Creaser's?) article on
aquaponics in Honduras. I grew up in Nicaragua where we had 6-9 feet of rain
a year, and the abject poverty is palpable. How to bring a high-tech concept
into a low-tech environment is what has been stumping me. Of course, it's
been an intellectual exercise to date, I've done nothing more than whet my
waders so far!
On the personal side, we're investigating raising tilapia in an organic
green water system in a 16x60x6' pit in a 30x90 grnhse. The pit helps to
solve some of Darlene Skellion's problems with the cold, adjusting water
depth for frostline depth. Being 12 mi. south of Chattanooga, TN, we're not
bothered so much, but at 2,100 ft. altitude, it is a factor for us to
consider. She mentioned lots of sun, so solar collection most likely would
be feasible. Being parsimonious, I'd investigate winter installation of
bubble insulation and a reflective material for the north side at least.
Part 2 is hydro-grown greens in the remaining 20+ feet. We would grow water
lettuce in the pond to assist in recycling the water. We're observing a
system or two in our area now -- start date for us (pit and grnhse) is about
a month if we can get a 1/2 acre of trees cleared before everything goes
muddy.
We're contacting several area restaurants about using "naturally grown"
greens. Would using the term "hydroponically grown" be of better marketing
value? A few fish would end up in restaurants within easy reach, but most
would be macerated into organic fish emulsion -- fertilizer for the "quiche
and boutique" market.
I had suggested a few weeks ago that listers include their geographical
location in their signatures. Many of you have complied, and we (me and
mine) appreciate that. I feel there are so many variables, not the least of
which is location and altitude, that it is a significant point to consider.
If I were truely organized, I'd have an Excel spreadsheet linked to a map
interactively so I could track each of you instantaneously. But alas, I'm
more of a wordsmith than a technobyter.
As lurkers we've appreciated you more than you can know, including
diversions.
D.C. & Cathy Dreger
Lookout Mountain, GA
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 25 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Introductions
From: "KevinLReed"
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 16:53:45 -1000
Aloha All,
I recently moved my family to Hawaii and now never tire of writing " Aloha"
on my email. I am trained in Biotechnology and Cytogenetics. I work with a
Hawaiian group on Kauai, Hawaii. We are trying to use the Sperano aquaponic
system to feed an in ground organic greenhouse and also use the converted
fish effluents to fertilize and water field crops. On Kauai ( as may be the
case in most places) we are trying to use zero cost fish food ( Duckweed,
snails and brewery waste) to keep our production costs as low as possible
while extending the impact of the aquaponics as far as possible. I am hoping
that the integration of aquaponics, open field farming as alley intercrops
in tropical hardwood plantings will provide sufficient revenue to service
investor debt from purchasing farm property. The idea here is to control
14,000 acres to be turned to tropical hardwood forestry using the aquaponic
growhouse as the key Risk Management tool. The end product of our work will
be to bring all of the information we gain from experience, from this group
and other sources into a form that we can teach to students at our proposed
charter school. Hopefully we can show the students how to plan, implement
and maintain aquaponics - open field - forestry systems in all aspects from
site selection through marketing including Risk Management, financing,
grants and carbon credits etc. as well as all of the nuts and bolts in
between.
Information from the group has always been extremely reliable and sound
with some welcome debate about my stand on GE ) and I like the ideas and
helpful attitude of the people in this group. My biggest question now is who
would like to write a book about integrated farming systems that are based
on aquaponics? SMILE
The other question is can anyone recommend a good red color lettuce.
Kevin L. Reed
My question is who wants to write a book about aq
----- Original Message -----
From: "S & S Aqua Farm"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 2:41 PM
Subject: Introductions
> This list has been so quiet the last few days, I was beginning to think
that
> EVERYONE had unsubscribed. But I checked the roster, and we're all still
> here:>)
>
> This might be a good time for those who are new to the list to post a
short
> introduction and whatever question(s) are most important. Let us know a
> little about you and your plans (or status of your system); and if you
have
> questions, post them as well. There is no shortage of expertise in the
> group, and I think we'll see some interesting discussion.
>
> Paula
> S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
> Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
>
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 26 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Introductions
From: "Dale Robinson"
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 22:38:02 -0800
Hi all,
I'm Dale Robinson. I've been member of this list for over a year. I mostly
a lurk on this list because you mostly want to talk about the fish.
I am mostly interested in hydroponics although I do occasionally like to
read
about what people are doing on the fish side of aquaponics. Aquaponics has
been of something of interest to me long before I ever saw this list. I
would like to kill a few plants before I start killing fish. I just
acquired a book about aquaponics that I haven't had time to crack the cover
on yet. I worked for about 6 months in a hydroponic greenhouse. The
operation has shut down now but I was able to purchase a lot of the supplies
from them. The experience of growing Hydroponic tomatoes was great too. I
just became a grandfather this morning at 1:10. My son came from Germany to
be with his wife when the baby came. Missed the event by 15 minutes. Oh
well!
I'm located in Davenport, Iowa. I don't have a lot of space to work with.
My first hands on experiments were done last year even though I have been
interested in it for about 15 years. I wish I had started sooner!
Dale Robinson
mwhydroponics@worldnet.att.net
Http://home.att.net/~mwhydroponics/
Low prices on small quantities
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 27 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: fish in nutrient and other mysteries
From: "Sam Levy"
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 21:16:42 PST
marc,
do you have a breakdown of the ion concentrations in your water?
sam
>From: Marc & Marcy
>My current Colorado comet crop is in water
>that has a TDS over 4500 (limit of my meter). Yes, my well
>water has a bit of mineral content.
>
>Marc
|
