Aquaponics Digest - Tue 02/15/00
Message 1: Hello & Introduction
from Rboylan2
Message 2: Re: Hello & Introduction
from "Steve"
Message 3: Re: A murder mystery
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 4: Re: System discussion, was Re: Introduction and questions
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 5: Re: Question on S&S System
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 6: temp. unsubscribe
from g parker
Message 7: Re: Introductions
from djhanson@calweb.com
Message 8: RE: A murder mystery
from "William Brown"
Message 9: Please pass along
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 10: RE: A murder mystery
from "William Brown"
Message 11: Re: A murder mystery
from "Dale Robinson"
Message 12: Re: A murder mystery
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 13: Re: A murder mystery
from Doug Peckenpaugh
Message 14: Revolution
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 15: Re: Question on S&S System
from "Jay Myers"
Message 16: Re: A murder mystery
from Marc & Marcy
Message 17: was dead fish...Now Living Memories
from dreadlox@cwjamaica.com (michael kent barnett)
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| Message 1 |
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Subject: Hello & Introduction
From: Rboylan2
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 01:37:17 EST
Hi All,
My name is Richard, and this is my second time joining this Aquaponics list,
but during my previous subscription I was just a lurker. So here goes the
introduction...
My direct experience with fish farming and aquaponics in particular grew out
of two years of work with Ocean Arks International, and their aquaponic and
waste-treating engineered ecosystems known as Living Machines. At the time I
worked there (1996-1998) OAI was exploring the use of small to medium sized
(125 to 1000 gallon) systems for household and educational uses, but their
primary work focused on bioremediation of polluted lakes. Nonetheless, there
was enough fish-farming to get me exploring, and have a bunch of fine
grilled-tilapia dinners with students and coworkers. I also killed a few
fish, learned about the dangers of using too-flimsy materials (always costs
ya more in the long run), and realized that I wanted to farm and work the
earth more than be in an office dealing with financial audits and such. While
working at OAI, I also lived for a while at the site of the New Alchemy
Institute. It was quite something to see the remains of 25 years of
experimentation with aquaponic systems. Many of the old alchemists are still
around there, and I owe much of my learning to their kind willingness to
teach.
I'm now residing in Northern California, working as a Permaculture designer
and gardner for a massage school. There's a built-in market here, since the
school kitchen serves fish once a week or so to approximately 100 students,
staff and neighbors. They also serve a lot of fresh greens, tomatoes,
peppers, etc. I've been talking up the possibilities of greenhouse-based
tilapia aquaponics for nearly a year now, but am only now beginning to write
up a business plan and seek start-up capital. No doubt, y'all will see
questions and musings from me on this subject as things progress.
I'm psyched to be part of this listserv - the knowledge and enthusiasm are
impressive and (hopefully) contagious. I'll gladly pitch in what I know and
hope to learn from all of you...
-Richard Boylan
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Subject: Re: Hello & Introduction
From: "Steve"
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 00:42:14 -0600
Welcome back Richard.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 12:37 AM
Subject: Hello & Introduction
> Hi All,
>
> My name is Richard, and this is my second time joining this Aquaponics
list,
> but during my previous subscription I was just a lurker. So here goes the
> introduction...
>
> My direct experience with fish farming and aquaponics in particular grew
out
> of two years of work with Ocean Arks International, and their aquaponic
and
> waste-treating engineered ecosystems known as Living Machines. At the time
I
> worked there (1996-1998) OAI was exploring the use of small to medium
sized
> (125 to 1000 gallon) systems for household and educational uses, but their
> primary work focused on bioremediation of polluted lakes. Nonetheless,
there
> was enough fish-farming to get me exploring, and have a bunch of fine
> grilled-tilapia dinners with students and coworkers. I also killed a few
> fish, learned about the dangers of using too-flimsy materials (always
costs
> ya more in the long run), and realized that I wanted to farm and work the
> earth more than be in an office dealing with financial audits and such.
While
> working at OAI, I also lived for a while at the site of the New Alchemy
> Institute. It was quite something to see the remains of 25 years of
> experimentation with aquaponic systems. Many of the old alchemists are
still
> around there, and I owe much of my learning to their kind willingness to
> teach.
>
> I'm now residing in Northern California, working as a Permaculture
designer
> and gardner for a massage school. There's a built-in market here, since
the
> school kitchen serves fish once a week or so to approximately 100
students,
> staff and neighbors. They also serve a lot of fresh greens, tomatoes,
> peppers, etc. I've been talking up the possibilities of greenhouse-based
> tilapia aquaponics for nearly a year now, but am only now beginning to
write
> up a business plan and seek start-up capital. No doubt, y'all will see
> questions and musings from me on this subject as things progress.
>
> I'm psyched to be part of this listserv - the knowledge and enthusiasm are
> impressive and (hopefully) contagious. I'll gladly pitch in what I know
and
> hope to learn from all of you...
>
> -Richard Boylan
>
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Subject: Re: A murder mystery
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 08:31:06 -0600
At 04:00 PM 02/14/2000 -0600, Bob wrote:
But the
>living machine has become a breeding place for drain flies. We want to
>kill the drain flies without adding chemicals that will damage the plants
>or microbes. They seem to not have attraction to light or heat sources, at
>least not enough to reduce their numbers. And we can't keep enough frogs
>around to do the trick. So we were advised to try bT. The fish seem
>unbothered but the mussels went into bad spasms. We saved some by getting
>them into fresh water quickly, but not all survived.
>
>Anyone have a different fly control method that might have less of a downside?
Bob, we had very good results with praying mantis for these very pests --
the only problem is that the PM are not selective, so other beneficials can
suffer as well.
You should be able to order them this time of year (I think most insectaries
won't ship after June), and we had good reproduction from ours. Actually,
once we got the drain flies under control and the mantis (is there a plural
for this?) moved on, we've never had a bad infestation again. You may need
to make some changes in your overall operation to keep them down, though.
Any dark, damp spot or patch of non-agitated algae growth will look like
home to them.
Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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Subject: Re: System discussion, was Re: Introduction and questions
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 08:38:55 -0600
At 12:13 PM 02/14/2000 PST, Sam wrote:
>
>>From: S & S Aqua Farm
>>
>>What kind of oxygen
>>supplementation do you have to provide to make this viable, if any? Does
>>this make blowers a necessary part of the operation?
>techniques include using a pump to create turbulence
>blowers w/airstone and/or airlifts
>mechanical in-tank agitators
>pure oxygen and an appropriate contact chamber (oxygen is generally too
>expensive to use with diffusers exceapt under special circumstances such as
>back up in event of system failures)
>
>all of the above can provide oxygen to the fish--but not all of them will be
>appropriate in every situation or for every species of fish (some require
>higher DO levels than others)
>
>selection of the appropriate technology will depend on the level of
>intensity the system will operate under, initial cost, operating cost,
>compatibility with other components and personal preference.
Thanks, Sam. I was asking about trickle supply systems since we've not used
them, and it seemed that there would have to be some way to supply the
necessary oxygen. Our experience has been with pumps to transport and
oxygenate, but Dr. Rakocy almost has us convinced of the benefits of the
blower system he uses.:>)
Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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Subject: Re: Question on S&S System
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 08:45:07 -0600
At 09:10 PM 02/14/2000 -0600, Jay wrote:
>Paula -
>
>I've been looking at my system in detail, and I think Adriana's observation
>may have merit. The ladder, with it's holes, seems to get any greens, etc.
>that come in contact with it nasty due to the water, and I've been wondering
>for days now is I could just put the water in at one end. I'm going to try
>it on one bed and see how it goes.
>
>Have you ever tried it?
We've tried lots of different combinations, Jay, including irrigating
completely from one inlet. Water tends to create it's own "permanent" path,
though, so you'll need to be vigilant about keeping the inlet space smoothed
and loosened so that it doesn't trench and not spread out to the rest of the
bed.
Tell me more about how your grid is set up and how the water is affecting
the greens ---- are your pipes on the gravel or elevated, are you flooding
up to the surface of the bed, is the water staying on the surface instead of
dropping through the gravel, is the water splashing onto the greens, etc.?
Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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Subject: temp. unsubscribe
From: g parker
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:10:16 -0500 (EST)
Hey Folks
I'm a brand new subscriber and haven't contributed much other than a few
inquires. I must travel to Africa for about 6-weeks on business. I'll be out
of touch with the internet for several days at a time---and I fear that with
the huge amount of interaction between the members of this group, my e-mail
account would BLOW-UP before I could get to it.
You're a helpful and dedicated bunch--I appreciate you all.
See ya in a couple of months.
Cheers, and All Good Things
Geoff Parker
______________________________________________
FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com
Sign up at http://www.mail.com?sr=mc.mk.mcm.tag001
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Subject: Re: Introductions
From: djhanson@calweb.com
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 07:12:33 -0800
Okay, okay. Enough lurking. I'll peek my head out and let you all know
I'm still around. But I warn you all, if it gets ugly in here again I'll
disappear and go back to eavesdropping on all of you and just dreaming
of getting started.
My wife & I have been raising ornamental tropical fish for several
years.
Sometimes with more success, sometimes less. At one point we were
selling
1-1/4" catfish (Corydoras sterbai) for $2 EACH in 100 lots. $10-15/lb
isn't too bad for fish that only take 3 months to go from spawn to sale!
Well, I finally bought a house last year and moved 80+ tanks, 1000+
gallons of water, out of the apartment. Unfortunately, we lost the vast
majority of our breeding stock and are still in the process of building
back up. However, in the process of settling in, I find myself with the
opportunity to set up a small scale aquaponic system. I'll either be
using a 55 gallon tank with approximately 5 sq. ft of growing space or a
100 gallon tank with 7 sq ft of growing space. I still don't don't know
what exactly I'll be trying to grow. (I'll probably only have 2' or so
between the surface of the grow bed and the ceiling.) I'm probably
leaning towards various herbs for our personal use, but that seems like
an AWFUL lot just for personal use!
Any advise, suggestions, etc.? I need something that will work with a
continuous flow of water, and preferably something fairly inexpensive
as well. If it works out, I may be able to talk my wife into letting me
build a greenhouse onto the back of the fish room we're constructing at
which point I'll be using the hydroponics beds as the primary filtration
for another 1,000 gallons or so of fish tanks and probably be looking
to grow assorted veggies for our dinner table.
--- dj
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| Message 8 |
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Subject: RE: A murder mystery
From: "William Brown"
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 06:42:29 -1000
Just happened to see a Fly parasite offered for sale at Hydro-Gardens
http://www.hydro-gardens.com
However it is not listed at their site, you will need to call or order a
catalog. Brief description:
"These parasites kill pest flies before they can even hatch by laying their
eggs inside the fly's egg. Fly species controlled include the common house
fly, stable fly, blow fly, face fly, horn fly and many others."
William Brown mahiwai@cmpmail.com
-----Original Message-----
From: aquaponics
[mailto:aquaponics]On Behalf Of wills/nachreiner
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2000 12:01 PM
To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
Subject: A murder mystery
Well the subject title should get attention anyway.
Here's the skinny. We are growing mussels in the living machine to 1. see
if we can propogate them and 2. help clean water. Background. Midwest
mussels were over harvested for buttons and then because they made great
seed for Japanese cultured pearls. Then they became victims of pollution.
So today many varieties are endangered. Bivalves are great water cleaners.
They require fish to host their larvae, so we have provided that. But the
living machine has become a breeding place for drain flies. We want to
kill the drain flies without adding chemicals that will damage the plants
or microbes. They seem to not have attraction to light or heat sources, at
least not enough to reduce their numbers. And we can't keep enough frogs
around to do the trick. So we were advised to try bT. The fish seem
unbothered but the mussels went into bad spasms. We saved some by getting
them into fresh water quickly, but not all survived.
Whats the deal? Anyone know about bt being bad for shellfish? Does this
have implications for treating organic crops or for the transgenic Bt corn?
Could anything else be going on?
Anyone have a different fly control method that might have less of a
downside?
Bob
Box185 Plain,Wi 53577
(608) 546-2712
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Subject: Please pass along
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:48:04 -0600
>Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:27:51 -0600
>From: Gordon Watkins
>Hi Paula,
>
>I'm still lurking, presumably unable to post, but have a response that
>may be pertinent if you would be so kind as to post it for me.
>
>Thanks,
> Gordon
>
>At 09:10 PM 02/14/2000 -0600, Jay wrote:
>>Paula -
>>
>>I've been looking at my system in detail, and I think Adriana's
>observation
>>may have merit. The ladder, with it's holes, seems to get any greens,
>etc.
>>that come in contact with it nasty due to the water, and I've been
>wondering
>>for days now is I could just put the water in at one end. I'm going to
>try
>>it on one bed and see how it goes.
>>
>>Have you ever tried it?
>
>We've tried lots of different combinations, Jay, including irrigating
>completely from one inlet. Water tends to create it's own "permanent"
>path,
>though, so you'll need to be vigilant about keeping the inlet space
>smoothed
>and loosened so that it doesn't trench and not spread out to the rest of
>the
>bed.
>
>Tell me more about how your grid is set up and how the water is
>affecting
>the greens ---- are your pipes on the gravel or elevated, are you
>flooding
>up to the surface of the bed, is the water staying on the surface
>instead of
>dropping through the gravel, is the water splashing onto the greens,
>etc.?
>
>Paula
>
>My system is based on the McMurtry design and I contour the surface of
>my beds in a hill-and-furrow profile in which the water/detritus flows
>down the furrows. I plant terrestrial plants on the ridges and water
>plants like watercress, acorus, etc in the furrows. Initially, I install
>a perforated pvc grid to distribute water evenly down the furrows but,
>over time, an algae mat forms which helps distribute the water, at which
>time I remove the grid and have a single outlet at the head of each
>furrow. I'm not sure if this would address your problem with nasty
>greens as there is still an open flow of water during a flood cycle, but
>it does help reduce maintenance time. The problem with this system is
>that the algae mat can become dense and less permeable which reduces the
>perc rate. I control this with the judicious use of a potato digger to
>perforate and loosen the mat, restoring proper flow. I have found that
>since adding earthworms to my beds, algae mat formation is slower but
>perc rates are improved. I should note too that my media is smaller than
>what some others are using, around an eigth-inch diameter gravel with
>some sand, which makes it relatively easy to maintain a ridge compared
>to larger particles.
>
>Gordon Watkins
>
>
S&S Aqua Farm, http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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Subject: RE: A murder mystery
From: "William Brown"
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 08:57:48 -1000
mantii
> mantis (is there a plural for this?)
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Subject: Re: A murder mystery
From: "Dale Robinson"
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 15:11:42 -0800
Hi all,
Last summer I used a bug light that I left on all day near the plants. In
the course of the day enough of the bugs wandered into harms way to keep the
numbers down. I wonder if you were to put something that the flies were
attracted to(sugar or rotting meat) inside or on the bug light cage. That
might increase the murder rate. :-)
> They seem to not have attraction to light or heat sources, at....
Dale Robinson
mwhydroponics@worldnet.att.net
Http://home.att.net/~mwhydroponics/
Low prices on small quantities
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Subject: Re: A murder mystery
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:26:31 -0600
At 03:11 PM 02/14/2000 -0800, you wrote:
>Hi all,
>Last summer I used a bug light that I left on all day near the plants. In
>the course of the day enough of the bugs wandered into harms way to keep the
>numbers down. I wonder if you were to put something that the flies were
>attracted to(sugar or rotting meat) inside or on the bug light cage. That
>might increase the murder rate. :-)
>
>> They seem to not have attraction to light or heat sources, at....
>
>Dale Robinson
Dale, I believe what he's describing are drain flies (or sewer flies) -- not
certain of the proper name -- they live in drain systems (actually in most
places in the world as I remember being told). Normally not a problem, but
when they move into the top surface where you have to work, they can end up
in your produce (not very appealing). At the very least, they're a pain to
work around as it seems you're always stirring them up into your face.
Now if we're talking about another kind of pest, let me know.
Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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Subject: Re: A murder mystery
From: Doug Peckenpaugh
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:00:45 -0800
I usually wouldn't nit pick like this--I suppose it's the grammarian in
me. The plural of mantis is "mantises" or "mantes."
See! I can contribute to something!
--Doug Peckenpaugh
Editor, The Growing Edge
William Brown wrote:
> mantii
>
> > mantis (is there a plural for this?)
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Subject: Revolution
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:57:43 -0500
Hi William,
You had mentioned you'd be interested in a small amount of Revolution if
I bought in bulk. If you're interested I have split it into 1 oz.
packages which will cost $28 assuming postage to Hawaii is the same as
for the mainland. If you're interested let me know and send me a check
to:
Green Cuisine
3512 E Forest Lake Drive
Sarasota, FL 34232
If you throw in a return address sticker it will speed things up too.
Regards, Adriana
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Subject: Re: Question on S&S System
From: "Jay Myers"
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 20:00:17 -0600
>Tell me more about how your grid is set up and how the water is affecting
>the greens ---- are your pipes on the gravel or elevated, are you flooding
>up to the surface of the bed, is the water staying on the surface instead
of
>dropping through the gravel, is the water splashing onto the greens, etc.?
>
>Paula
The pipes are on the surface of the gravel. The water comes out very
slowley - not spraying up - and wets an area right at the pipe, and I
presume under it. My timer cuts out when the water is within an inch or two
of the gravel surface. The surface of the gravel never gets wet under
nornal operation. The greens only get wet when the leaves lay over on the
pipe. They then get mungy, so I keep them picked and they go to the fish,
and I'm a real popular guy around the tank. They do love their greens!
Jay
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| Message 16 |
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Subject: Re: A murder mystery
From: Marc & Marcy
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 20:30:59 -0700
..snip..
> Whats the deal? Anyone know about bt being bad for shellfish? Does this
> have implications for treating organic crops or for the transgenic Bt corn?
> Could anything else be going on?
..snip..
Are there directions on the container it came in? Did you
contact the manufacturer? What does the MSDS say?
Marc
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Subject: was dead fish...Now Living Memories
From: dreadlox@cwjamaica.com (michael kent barnett)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 09:37:11 +0000
Sam Levy wrote:
> to teach the guard staff the difference between this noise & that.
Hey funny...U should say that...today I was on a digestor tank, and said
ok....Fan on! and the lights come on...so I try again....Aerator on!!
and hear Pump 1 comes on.... ok..."Pump 2" I shout and feel the Aerator
comes on...
Know what? Instead of getting my head blown off, Electrocuted or
shredded for the sake of some apprentice...I took the day, and asked the
client to call me when they had either the electrician or their "problem
sorted out....
Who would have known today, to the day, taking up my diary thaT 2 years
ago to the day I was in Eretz Israel, installing a factory!! It was a
great time, I had a great crew there, with almost zero mistakes wired in
an entire plant...and the factory manager took great pains to have us
have any vehicle necessary to show us arround at every given
opportunity...It was one of my greatest stays, and I appreciated going
around to see the many agro things to see. I was near Netanya, and
actually stayed at Gaash for at least a month.( A founding kibbutz..)
Saw some great outdoor saline? ponds on the way from Netanya to
Caesarea. Do you know of this farm? Also visited the Golan Heights, and
stopped by the Dan Valley.
For all aquaponikers,,,this is a site to see....where sand beds are and
spectacular snowcapped mountains rise, lush plains extend down to the
Sea of Galilee, as far as the eyes sees these huge irrigation machines
creep over the soil and water the earth.Drip irrigate. Ive been told
that some of it is done in a method similar ro sand filled growbeds,
where the liners were just put down and filled with irrigation drains
and tanks and then the dripped water is recycled.
Cool mountain water flowing from the snowcaps in the Golan is used to
raise trout and salmon, and if Im not mistaken a particular crossbreed?
I was fascinated how out of desert grew fruits and veggies..and to see
cold water fish thrive in the same environment....but as I was shown
recently...it has been fortold for a long time...Isaiah said it (27:6)
who would have known he was talking tissue culture and export?
lol
Sorry guys...just mighty reminiscent today, its been 2 yrs since a been
on the road, and still tinkering with ma system on a tiny scale. One day
I will FINALLY present my website to you all, and I hope youll all be
glad you put up with my ramblings!!
lol
> by the way, by adjusting the pressure at the o2 tank outlet & using check
> valves, you can empty the tanks in serial order.
Tell me more sam, doesnt it take a mighty lot of bypasses and valves to
do that? :) Always willing to learn new tricks..
Anyway... Peace to the patient!!
Mike, Jamaica.
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