Aquaponics Digest - Wed 02/23/00
Message 1: Lettuce, type??
from "Steve"
Message 2: Re: Re: Re: Trout, Maron
from Attie Esterhuysen
Message 3: Re: Lettuce, type??
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 4: Re: Lettuce, type??
from "TGTX"
Message 5: Re: Lettuce, type??
from "TGTX"
Message 6: Re: Lettuce, type??
from Joy Pye-MacSwain
Message 7: Re: tilapia in Canada
from Chris Weaver
Message 8: How do I get started
from "Dave Rausch"
Message 9: Re: Lettuce, type??
from "James Rakocy"
Message 10: RE: Thank you Ron And Sam
from "Ron Brooks"
Message 11:
from Steve D Danielson
Message 12: Re: growing area...
from "Barry Thomas"
Message 13: Mizuna and tatsoi
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 14: Re: DO generation / backup
from "Barry Thomas"
Message 15: Re: History of Irrigation
from "Barry Thomas"
Message 16: Re: Lettuce, type??
from dbenhart@essex1.com (David Benhart)
Message 17: Re: Lettuce, type??
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 18:
from "Ron Brooks"
Message 19: Re: How do I get started
from atkindw@cwjamaica.com (david w atkinson)
Message 20: Re: trout
from Attie Esterhuysen
Message 21: THANKS!! (Re: Lettuce)
from "Steve"
Message 22: Re: How do I get started
from "Steve"
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| Message 1 |
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Subject: Lettuce, type??
From: "Steve"
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 00:51:37 -0600
Hi All,
I posted this question to the hydroponics list and I would like to post it
to my friends on the aquaponic list as well.
As some of you may know, I started my Tilapia business about 6-mo ago and
started the aquaponics side (tomatoes) about a month ago. So far, all is
well. I have, however, found a market for lettuce and I know NOTHING about
lettuce...except that it goes on a BLT sandwich. (Hey, if I start growing
pigs, I will have bacon, lettuce & tomatoes, huh...sorry, couldn't resist
that!
Anyway, would I be better off growing iceberg, bib or romaine? What can I
get the most of in the least area? I don't have a lot of excess room at this
time. Does anyone have any experience with lettuce in 4" PVC?
I understand that a lot of people grow lettuce in a "raft" system. I don't
know anything about this either. Except that a gentleman made a post
yesterday that he was not having a lot of success with his lettuce in his
raft system.
Also, while I am here, any input on something that I can grow "in the tanks"
with the Tilapia that is marketable and at the same time, beneficial to the
fish? I have 2-800 gal tanks.
Any input would be appreciated. Also, (I have already had a lot of GREAT
response to this question, but, being the cautious person that I am
concerning my babies (my tilapia),) would any of you suggest adding
Potassium to the system for the tomatoes, lettuce, etc.?)
Thanks in advance.........Steve
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Subject: Re: Re: Re: Trout, Maron
From: Attie Esterhuysen
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 06:56:53 GMT
> by the way, are your temperature listings air temps of
water temps?
>
> sam
It is air temperature. Thank you for the advice, I will
record some temperature measurements over a period of time
and see how the water temperatures vary. Once I've done
that, I will post the results.
Attie
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Subject: Re: Lettuce, type??
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 03:37:24 -0500
Hi Steve,
Cornell has a superb web site on lettuce production. Check it out at
http://www.cals.cornell.edu/dept/flori/lettuce/
> Anyway, would I be better off growing iceberg, bib or romaine? What can I
> get the most of in the least area? I don't have a lot of excess room at this
> time. Does anyone have any experience with lettuce in 4" PVC?
Most people on this list grow "baby greens" which are mixed into what is
called "mesclun mix". Why? Because you can get $6+ per pound for it.
However it is not really appropriate for round pipe cultivation, as the
seed is usually broadcast densely and cut at the 3-4" stage. For head
lettuce most people grow fancier types than iceberg, with bib being
common. Others grow fancy red lettuces and different gourmet
varieties. You might do a search of the archives. William Brown in
Hawaii grows a lot of head lettuce - check out his posts. The variety
really depends on the market - you might grow a few trial varieties and
take them to the prospective customers for their reaction ahead of time.
> I understand that a lot of people grow lettuce in a "raft" system. I don't
> know anything about this either. Except that a gentleman made a post
> yesterday that he was not having a lot of success with his lettuce in his
> raft system.
It seemed to me that he was trying to grow romaine in his float system
with no media to support the roots. Romaine is one of the more
difficult (trouble-prone) of the lettuces and because of its tall growth
habit needs something to "anchor" it into the raft, which is usually a
styrofoam sheet with holes cut in it. Other lettuces have a lower
center of gravity and will not tip. It is also common for head lettuce
to start the seeds in rockwool cubes which are inserted into the growing
system after they are a few inches tall.
If you are going to sell commercially you need to focus on succession
planting so that you have a continuous supply.
Adriana Gutierrez
Sarasota, FL
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Subject: Re: Lettuce, type??
From: "TGTX"
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 06:18:11 -0600
Adding KCl to the Tilapia should not hurt them at the levels that you would
see a tomato benefit from. Since Tilapia can be cultured up to sea water
levels of salinity given the proper amount of (sometimes not so gradual)
acclimation, you should have no problems adding a little KCl. Just do it a
little at a time (2 or 3 days maybe) until you build up the K to the desired
levels. Adding greensand to your growing bed might be a possibility. It is
an "organic" soil amendment sold in some garden supply centers. My question
is, what leads you to suspect that you must do this? Excessive vegetative
growth with little flowering or fruit set might indicate an overabundance of
N over P, or it the lack of fruit set might be temperature related, or you
just might need to practice extra efforts in getting the plant to pollinate
in the (relatively) still air or controlled environment of the greenhouse.
Tomato plants (the fruit) do better with a lower N and higher P,K, and Ca
levels. Under high light conditions, plants will use more nitrogen than
under poor light. High K levels during fall and early winter tends to
improve fruit quality. It is common in hydroponic plant culture to double
the ratio of K/N during the winter. What are concentration are you shooting
for there..about 200 ppm K in summer and 400 ppm K in winter???
Also, if your biofilter is not cranking along doing the nitrification thing,
and consequently, there is a build up of ammonia nitrogen, or should I say
if ammonia is the predominate inorganic nitrogen species instead of nitrate
before it is assimilated by the plants, then that can contribute to more
rapid vegetative growth (ammonia vs nitrate here, see?), which tomatoes are
always eager to comply with. So having a healthy, well oxygenated biofilter
(grow bed) can contribute to more tomato fruit by this indirect set of
circumstances.
Ted
> response to this question, but, being the cautious person that I am
> concerning my babies (my tilapia),) would any of you suggest adding
> Potassium to the system for the tomatoes, lettuce, etc.?)
>
> Thanks in advance.........Steve
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Subject: Re: Lettuce, type??
From: "TGTX"
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 06:23:00 -0600
I suggest avoiding Mizuna and Tat Soi (these are mustard/brassicas, not
lettuces) in your salad mix , at least during the warmest part of the year,
unless you cherish the idea of fighting aphids all the live long day and
night. As great as these additions are to your mix, the aphid battle can be
daunting. I have found that a seasonal shift in the salad mix is welcome by
chefs that are happy to find the Tat Soi in the mix only during the cooler
months when the aphids have less of a chance of doing the wild thing in the
greenhouse.
Ted
> > Anyway, would I be better off growing iceberg, bib or romaine? What can
I
> > get the most of in the least area? I don't have a lot of excess room at
this
> > time.
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Subject: Re: Lettuce, type??
From: Joy Pye-MacSwain
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 08:48:56 -0400
Morning Steve...
>
> Anyway, would I be better off growing iceberg, bib or romaine? What can I
> get the most of in the least area? I don't have a lot of excess room at this
> time. Does anyone have any experience with lettuce in 4" PVC?
We tried bib lettuce in 4" PVC but found that it was entirely too slow growing
to a
marketable size to be worth while..... seem to take twice as long as lettuce
grown in
pea gravel to make it to market size.
As for which type of lettuce to grow... that will depend upon your market. As
an
example, bib lettuce is lovely, both visually and in taste, but it is also very
fragile.
If you are selling to a supermarket, they tend to mist their veggies frequently
and under
that kind of pressure bib lettuce just wilts and doesn't sell....you lose your
client. On
the other hand if you are selling to a resturant, they will love your bib
lettuce... the flavour
is superior and visually it is very pleasing to dinner guests so you have a
happy client.
Look at your market.... and if you afre selling to a supermarket or large veggie
dealer then
I would probably recommend that you go with romaine, but if you are doing
resturants
then look at bib, lettuce mixs and red lettuces.
>
>
> I understand that a lot of people grow lettuce in a "raft" system. I don't
> know anything about this either. Except that a gentleman made a post
> yesterday that he was not having a lot of success with his lettuce in his
> raft system.
>
We have tried lettuce in a raft system but have found that growing basil rafting
in the tanks with our tilapia is actually much more effecient.
>
> Any input would be appreciated. Also, (I have already had a lot of GREAT
> response to this question, but, being the cautious person that I am
> concerning my babies (my tilapia),) would any of you suggest adding
> Potassium to the system for the tomatoes, lettuce, etc.?)
>
> Yes, you probably should add potassium to your system. Tomaotes require a
> large
amount of potassium to develop good marketable fruit. Low potassium is
characterized by
boxy fruit and blotchy ripening. Have you done your water anaylsis yet???
Joy Pye-Macswain
Future aqua Farms Ltd.
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Subject: Re: tilapia in Canada
From: Chris Weaver
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 08:49:41 -0500
Joy:
Could you please introduce yourself to the list with a short description of your
system. Are the fish and plants in a greenhouse or do you do them separately? I
have had great luck with red, yellow and orange peppers, but my basil doesn't do
too well during the months of nov, dec, jan. The greenhouse has so much humidity
and dripping from the roof during those months that the basil ends up with cold
damage.
Sincerly,
Chris Weaver
Joy Pye-MacSwain wrote:
> LABERGE MARC wrote:
>
> > Not me Ted, I'm not aware of any Tilapia in Québec but one of the members on
> > this list grows Tilapia and lettuce just south of Toronto.
>
> And then there is us, Future Aqua Farms, in Chessezetcook, Nova Scotia. We are
> growing Tilapia, cucumbers, peppers and basil.
>
> Joy Pye-Macswain
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Subject: How do I get started
From: "Dave Rausch"
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:22:08 -0600
How do I get started =20
New to the loop
Dave
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Subject: Re: Lettuce, type??
From: "James Rakocy"
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:17:59 -0400
I would not use any chloride compounds. Rather use KOH to neutralize acid
produced in the nitrification process. We alternate KOH with Ca(OH)2 and
our K levels average about 100 mg/L. Jim R.
----- Original Message -----
From: TGTX
To:
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 8:18 AM
Subject: Re: Lettuce, type??
> Adding KCl to the Tilapia should not hurt them at the levels that you
would
> see a tomato benefit from. Since Tilapia can be cultured up to sea water
> levels of salinity given the proper amount of (sometimes not so gradual)
> acclimation, you should have no problems adding a little KCl. Just do it
a
> little at a time (2 or 3 days maybe) until you build up the K to the
desired
> levels. Adding greensand to your growing bed might be a possibility. It
is
> an "organic" soil amendment sold in some garden supply centers. My
question
> is, what leads you to suspect that you must do this? Excessive vegetative
> growth with little flowering or fruit set might indicate an overabundance
of
> N over P, or it the lack of fruit set might be temperature related, or you
> just might need to practice extra efforts in getting the plant to
pollinate
> in the (relatively) still air or controlled environment of the greenhouse.
>
> Tomato plants (the fruit) do better with a lower N and higher P,K, and Ca
> levels. Under high light conditions, plants will use more nitrogen than
> under poor light. High K levels during fall and early winter tends to
> improve fruit quality. It is common in hydroponic plant culture to double
> the ratio of K/N during the winter. What are concentration are you
shooting
> for there..about 200 ppm K in summer and 400 ppm K in winter???
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Subject: RE: Thank you Ron And Sam
From: "Ron Brooks"
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 11:19:30 -0500
Ted
I am just now experimenting with the red claw , I did not even consider the
Yabbie the C. destructor is way to apt a name , though they are supposed to
be the faster grower , But I do not have concrete tanks to grow the suckers
in . The literature states that you can go from fry to 4-6 ounce in 6 months
, but that is pond culture without feeding other than hay.
So the parameters of the experiment that is about to start is the following.
1 tank red claw
1 tank red claw and Tilapia
1 tank of red claw and 1 tank of Tilapia connected so the same water
circulates.
The results I am trying to find is if Red Claw reduce the growth of Tilapia
do to aggravation ( attempt to prey on fish ) or is there some other factor.
The red claw will be fed small amount of plant matter plus shrimp pellets.
I am also thinking of setting up one other setup where the tilapia waste
water is circulated to a large sump with red claw and then the water then
would be circulated into an aquaponic bed for filtration. That will have to
wait until I move and can afford to build a bigger greenhouse.
Now one mention The above experiment is going to be carried out by 3 former
students as right now in Ohio it is illegal to own , buy or sell red claw.
Go figure they die in the cold winter temperatures we get.
Ron
-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: aquaponics
-> [mailto:aquaponics]On Behalf Of TGTX
-> Sent: Monday, February 21, 2000 11:20 AM
-> To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
-> Subject: Re: Thank you Ron And Sam
->
->
-> Hi Ron,
->
-> Am I right that you prefer the Red Claw (C. quad..)over the Yabbie (C.
-> destructor) and the Marron( C. whatever, 'cause I forgot)? I think I'm
-> gonna do the Red Claw thing just for my own personal cuisine/novelty
-> requirements. Can you tell us about your experiences with these
-> Australian
-> mud bugs re: space, territoriality, diet, hardiness, compatibility in
-> polyculture with the Tilapia, etc...?
->
-> Ted
->
-> > That's true , the Australian Red Claw , Cherax quadricarinatus
-> , can get
-> up
-> > to a pound an a half
-> >
-> > Ron
->
->
->
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| Message 11 |
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From: Steve D Danielson
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:54:32 -0600
unsubscribe
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| Message 12 |
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Subject: Re: growing area...
From: "Barry Thomas"
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 18:10:21 -0000
Dr Rakocy,
Apologies for the delay and many thanks the reply. That, your previous
post to Marc and a (belated) visit to the UVI website have shed light on
a lot of gloomy (for me) areas.
> Barry, Instantaneous matching is not practical.
No. :)
But it seems that decreasing the percentage of both fish and plants that
are harvested at a time limits the range of I/O of all the system
components so that they do in fact become increasingly stable constants
(neglecting weather effects and assuming a small m2/(system)m3 to smooth
things out)?
> Assume that is better to have nutrients accumulate
> slightly than decrease (I doubt if you will ever get steady
> state).
Varying the amount of water that gets dumped (or removed from the system
anyway) along with the collected solids is the main way used to keep
both overall and individual nutrient levels within reasonable (upper)
bounds?
Thanks again,
Barry
barrythomas@btinternet.com
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Subject: Mizuna and tatsoi
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 14:10:59 -0500
TGTX wrote:
>
> I suggest avoiding Mizuna and Tat Soi (these are mustard/brassicas, not
> lettuces) in your salad mix , at least during the warmest part of the year,
> unless you cherish the idea of fighting aphids all the live long day and
> night.
Ted,
What do you find to be good substitutes for the mizuna and tatsoi during
warm weather? Those aphids can be tenacious. I won't grow komatsuna
ANY time of year because they like it too much.
Adriana
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Subject: Re: DO generation / backup
From: "Barry Thomas"
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 19:17:07 -0000
Bill,
> DO is driven up in a variety of ways. there used to be an arguement
about
> smaller bubbles being superior "due to increased surface area of
smaller
> bubbles." Turned out to be impact of a bubble's bursting was the
greatest
> factor.
Is this definate? How much of a factor? This seems relevant for raft
systems in particular - possibly good news if the raft shape is altered
to take account of this?
Barry
barrythomas@btinternet.com
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Subject: Re: History of Irrigation
From: "Barry Thomas"
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 20:20:02 -0000
Ted,
> I noted in the Texas data from that survey that 4,050,000
> acres of the 6,459,000 were irrigated by sprinkler systems,
> which have an approximate annual efficiency of 78%,
> whereas only 64,000 acres were in Surface Drip-Trickle
> or Subsurface Drip-Trickle irrigation, (other wise known as
> microirrigation) which has about a 90% or so annual
> efficiency rating.
These ratings are for how much water is actually transferred from
tank/mains supply to plants?
> Yeah, Marc, T-tape was my choice too. As I remember,
> It emits at 0.48 gallons per minute per 100 foot.
Seems like quite a lot of water if run continuously. If run
intermittantly and using fish effluent then rate of build up of stuff
inside tape and at outlets increases? What would you feed into it -
excess water from solids removal? How clean? Worth running fresh water
in after it?
Barry
barrythomas@btinternet.com
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Subject: Re: Lettuce, type??
From: dbenhart@essex1.com (David Benhart)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 18:43:23 -0800
I can't get this site!?!! Is it me or the link?
Dave Benhart
Shore Acres Greenhouse
Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta wrote:
>
> Hi Steve,
> Cornell has a superb web site on lettuce production. Check it out at
> http://www.cals.cornell.edu/dept/flori/lettuce/
>
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Subject: Re: Lettuce, type??
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 20:05:53 -0500
> I can't get this site!?!! Is it me or the link?
> > Cornell has a superb web site on lettuce production. Check it out at
> > http://www.cals.cornell.edu/dept/flori/lettuce/
Dave,
It's temperamental, keep trying.
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Subject:
From: "Ron Brooks"
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 20:54:28 -0500
Neat web page with lots of links. Check out the aquaculture section
http://agebb.missouri.edu/mac/links/
Ron
The One Who Walks Two Paths
ICQ 44273171
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Subject: Re: How do I get started
From: atkindw@cwjamaica.com (david w atkinson)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 21:10:46 -0800
Hi Dave,
Purchase Paula Speraneo's Video & Manual on Aquaponics. It makes good
reading & viewing.
David A (From JAMAICA W.I.)
atkindw@cwjamaica.com
At 09:22 AM 02/23/2000 -0600, you wrote:
>How do I get started
>
>New to the loop
>
>Dave
>
>
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Subject: Re: trout
From: Attie Esterhuysen
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 11:10:39 GMT
Marc
I am not very clued up on either horticulture or
aquaculture. My only experience with horticulture was some
time spent on a potato farm. Now I am growing tree ferns
from spores, as a hobby. Since the small ferns are very
sensitive to chemicals, I can only use liquid organic
fertilizers. The one that gives me the best results is
called Seagro, and is a seaweed extract as far as I know.
You say that you have some problems with the growth rate of
your plants and that the ones in clay media are doing
better. Could it not be that the ones in the net pots are
lacking some essential nutrients, which is supplied to the
other plants by the clay media? Would it be possible for you
to try something like Seagro as a foliar feed? I found that
plants react very positive on this foliar feed.
The first thing that I must do is to also get a small system
up and running. It will however be funded by me, so I really
don't want to make to many expensive mistakes. I would like
to have a closed ecosystem, with crop plants in proper soil,
enriched with compost and dead plant material. These plants
will be planted in what is probably known to you as the
gro-max system. The effluent from the crop plants must then
go through a miniature wetland system with some water
plants, to kill the bad microorganisms, before it can be
recycled to the fish dam. The drawback with this system is
going to be the large amount of variables. What do you think
of a system like this?
Attie
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Subject: THANKS!! (Re: Lettuce)
From: "Steve"
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 23:33:40 -0600
Hi everyone,
WOW!! The response I got to my lettuce question was absolutely
overwhelming...I got some tremendous input. I even told my wife earlier
today that I was really looking forward to checking my email tonight and
seeing what was there.
There were so many of you who sent info on the lettuce and the Potassium
question. Wow!! Thanks to all of you. I have saved the messages, because I
really want to study what all of you have said.
Thanks again!! What a great bunch of people on this list.
Steve
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| Message 22 |
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Subject: Re: How do I get started
From: "Steve"
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 23:19:55 -0600
& you will just love her. She is soooo much help...Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "david w atkinson"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 11:10 PM
Subject: Re: How do I get started
> Hi Dave,
>
> Purchase Paula Speraneo's Video & Manual on Aquaponics. It makes good
> reading & viewing.
>
>
> David A (From JAMAICA W.I.)
> atkindw@cwjamaica.com
>
>
>
>
> At 09:22 AM 02/23/2000 -0600, you wrote:
> >How do I get started
> >
> >New to the loop
> >
> >Dave
> >
> >
>
|
