Aquaponics Digest - Sun 03/05/00
Message 1: Contact Missing
from Raul Vergueiro Martins
Message 2: Re: Contact Missing
from "TGTX"
Message 3: Re: Contact Missing
from Raul Vergueiro Martins
Message 4: Solar Powered Greenhouse Vent
from "TGTX"
Message 5: What is the address of the hydroponic list?
from "Patrick Pierce"
Message 6: School Teachers: Check Out Solar Greenhouses
from "TGTX"
Message 7: Re: Experimental lighting questions
from "Sam Levy"
Message 8: Re: Experimental lighting questions
from "TGTX"
Message 9: Re: Contact Missing
from "beacnhrt"
Message 10: Re: School Teachers: Check Out Solar Greenhouses
from "beacnhrt"
Message 11: Re: Experimental lighting questions
from "beacnhrt"
Message 12: KOH
from laberge@cil.qc.ca (LABERGE MARC)
Message 13: Useful tip
from "beacnhrt"
Message 14: mineralization process and heterotrophic bacteria
from laberge@cil.qc.ca (LABERGE MARC)
Message 15: Re: KOH
from "TGTX"
Message 16: Re: mineralization process and heterotrophic bacteria
from "TGTX"
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| Message 1 |
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Subject: Contact Missing
From: Raul Vergueiro Martins
Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 14:03:18 +1300
Hello:
Since yersterday morning, I receive no messages form the list.
Is there any problem?
Greetings
Raul Vergueiro Martins
rvm@sti.com.br
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| Message 2 |
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Subject: Re: Contact Missing
From: "TGTX"
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 11:15:44 -0600
> Hello:
>
> Since yersterday morning, I receive no messages form the list.
> Is there any problem?
>
> Greetings
>
> Raul Vergueiro Martins
Hi Raul. Got your message. Last post I received was a question about fish
growth and light spectrum effects.
If I were to guess, I'll bet folks are out in their yards planting fruit
trees and stuff like that....as I have been for the last several days.
(Escarpment Cherry, Methley Plum, Bruce Plum, Celeste Fig, Texas Everbearing
Fig...along with a bunch of compost hauling and other spring activities...Oy
vey, my aching shoulders!)
Have a Great Weekend.
Ted
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| Message 3 |
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Subject: Re: Contact Missing
From: Raul Vergueiro Martins
Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 14:37:12 +1300
TGTX wrote:
> > Hello:
> >
> > Since yersterday morning, I receive no messages form the list.
> > Is there any problem?
> >
> > Greetings
> >
> > Raul Vergueiro Martins
>
> Hi Raul. Got your message. Last post I received was a question about fish
> growth and light spectrum effects.
>
> If I were to guess, I'll bet folks are out in their yards planting fruit
> trees and stuff like that....as I have been for the last several days.
> (Escarpment Cherry, Methley Plum, Bruce Plum, Celeste Fig, Texas Everbearing
> Fig...along with a bunch of compost hauling and other spring activities...Oy
> vey, my aching shoulders!)
>
> Have a Great Weekend.
>
> Ted
Hy Ted:
Got your message just now.
Sorry about your shoulders.
I got the last message you receives too.
You are working, but here in Brazil is Carnival time, and the hole country stops
until next wednesday after 13 PM.
An interesting thing: I have no messages from the Aquaponics List and no
messages from the Hydroponics List too.
Greetings
Raul Vergueiro Martins
rvm@sti.com.br
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| Message 4 |
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Subject: Solar Powered Greenhouse Vent
From: "TGTX"
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 11:47:10 -0600
When someone recently asked about solar vents for the greenhouse, or passive
vents, this is the product I was thinking of, but did not find references
for at the time. You can review the specs for it at the following website:
http://www.greenhousesupplies.com/page6.html
Y'all might want to check out the rest of the website for future reference,
etc.
Paula, I hope this comes over as plain text....here we go...
Ted
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| Message 5 |
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Subject: What is the address of the hydroponic list?
From: "Patrick Pierce"
Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 13:00:19 EST
What is the address of the hydroponic list?
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| Message 6 |
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Subject: School Teachers: Check Out Solar Greenhouses
From: "TGTX"
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 12:00:27 -0600
I recall their are a number of (public) school teachers that contribute to
the aquaponics list. This site might be of interest to you and the kiddos
http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/1983/1/83.01.13.x.html
With these exercises and questions, the kids get some insight into the
concepts of insolation, insulation, thermal mass, building orientation, etc.
Sorry......I don't mean to single out those folks still involved with public
schools...
it's just that most of us home schoolers do this kind of thing all the time
and it is not really novel or unusual for us....(my kids even helped build
the full scale model greenhouses I have been involved with).....so.... even
you home school folks, or single people, or grand masters of academic
knowledge might find these questions and exercises fun and interesting!
There.... I hope that includes all walks of life...
Ted
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| Message 7 |
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Subject: Re: Experimental lighting questions
From: "Sam Levy"
Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 10:21:03 PST
fred--
here in israel a number of growers went over to green colored plastic for
hothouse coverings in order to prevent algal growth in the ponds.
you don't mention which drum you're rearing . . . my experience w/ red drum
has been to keep them in subdued lighting (if possible), keep them well
graded when young, give them lots of food 24 hours a day. & use a good
enrichment product for the live food. 1st feed for the drum ought to be
around 55% protein & 14% lipid.
if you have access to adult artemia, you might try adding small quantities
to the tanks before you wean--gives them something slower to attack than
their brothers--although this is not a technique that is usually possible
w/large scale production.
what work that i've come across regarding colors generally refered to tank
color & the question of green water--the underlying idea being that the
color that lets the live prey stand out seems to be best. many species of
marine fish have been successfully reared in black, green, blue, or grey
tanks.
one trick you might try
sam
Because they are natural born killers, we need something
>that will keep them from eating each other
>Most of you use artificial illumination. What's been your experience? Can
>you tell if your livestock favors one color of light over another?
>
>Any thoughts, hunches, pearls of wisdom?
>Fred
>760-505-8500 Agricultural-Sciences
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>On location in Carlsbad, Calif. USA. Serving an internship at Hubbs-Sea
>World's Hubbard Marine Fish Hatchery, and collecting data for my MS in
>Sustainable Aquaculture from Cal Poly Pomona.
>http://www.buschgardens.org/endangered_species/esV.html
>
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| Message 8 |
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Subject: Re: Experimental lighting questions
From: "TGTX"
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 13:46:04 -0600
Fred wrote:
>we suspect that some colors may be calming to
> the young fish. Because they are natural born killers, we need something
> that will keep them from eating each other. We know that poultry
> operations use colored lights to control antagonism, and want to see if it
> works on marine fish.
Consider this: Most of the red light in the solar spectrum is absorbed in
the first meter of the water column. That is why water bodies look blue,
and when we go SCUBA diving things look pretty blue below about 20 feet or
so. Therefore, if your culture system water is deeper than about 1 meter,
and if your young fish stay on the bottom, perhaps you would expect less
predation among the cohort if you used reddish-orange light such as sodium
vapor....which would give you enough light to walk around and operate the
system (pumps, valves, feeding, etc). I once worked in an enormous closed,
recirculation aquaculture system (about 100,000 square feet within a single
metal building). At night, we used red fluorescent lights which provided
just enough light to see by, while the critters went nighty-night. The
problem was with sudden flashlight beams accidentally or deliberately
pointed down into the water, or with noises that made the intensive
aquacultured animals "do the wave" in the tanks....a spooky effect for those
of us zombies who had to do the night shift.
Fred, you also said:
>
> Most of you use artificial illumination.
I think you are assuming that most of us use artificial illumination. I
don't know that for a fact vis a vis growing plants, since most aquaponics
systems I am aware of rely mostly on natural illumination.
> Any thoughts, hunches, pearls of wisdom?
No pearls here, more like brain droppings....but I hope it helps the thought
process.
Have a fun weekend, all.
Ted
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| Message 9 |
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Subject: Re: Contact Missing
From: "beacnhrt"
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 15:41:23 -0600
Hi Raul,
I had been wondering if maybe my Email Server was having trouble
receiving the Aquaponics traffic. But, like Ted said, people are probably
working outside. I know I have been. I have been putting up a demonstration
greenhouse on my farm next to the highway in order to advertise a new
residential style we just started making. The weather is great here in Los
Estados Unidos. I think it is due to La Nina. Have a good time at Carnival,
but, don't over do it.
melvin landers
-----Original Message-----
From: Raul Vergueiro Martins
To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
Date: Sunday, March 05, 2000 11:25 AM
Subject: Re: Contact Missing
>
>
>TGTX wrote:
>
>> > Hello:
>> >
>> > Since yersterday morning, I receive no messages form the list.
>> > Is there any problem?
>> >
>> > Greetings
>> >
>> > Raul Vergueiro Martins
>>
>> Hi Raul. Got your message. Last post I received was a question about
fish
>> growth and light spectrum effects.
>>
>> If I were to guess, I'll bet folks are out in their yards planting fruit
>> trees and stuff like that....as I have been for the last several days.
>> (Escarpment Cherry, Methley Plum, Bruce Plum, Celeste Fig, Texas
Everbearing
>> Fig...along with a bunch of compost hauling and other spring
activities...Oy
>> vey, my aching shoulders!)
>>
>> Have a Great Weekend.
>>
>> Ted
>
>Hy Ted:
>
>Got your message just now.
>Sorry about your shoulders.
>I got the last message you receives too.
>You are working, but here in Brazil is Carnival time, and the hole country
stops
>until next wednesday after 13 PM.
>An interesting thing: I have no messages from the Aquaponics List and no
>messages from the Hydroponics List too.
>
>Greetings
>
>Raul Vergueiro Martins
>rvm@sti.com.br
>
>
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| Message 10 |
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Subject: Re: School Teachers: Check Out Solar Greenhouses
From: "beacnhrt"
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 16:05:22 -0600
Thanks Ted for the solar greenhouse information. This site is great and
would probably be helpful for any of us whether contemplating solar powered
houses or not. One comment though. The site keeps mentioning barrels of
water for thermal mass which has, until recently, been the standard for
solar powered greenhouses. Although they are very effective at gathering and
releasing heat, recent research has shown that they release most of their
heat from the top of the drum. Smaller water filled containers stacked on
top of each other give off most of their heat at the level of each
individual container. This brings the heat down around the plants where it
is needed. Containers of small size can be placed in all sorts of nooks and
crannies around heated greenhouses to lower energy costs. We could all
benefit from harnessing a little solar power.
-----Original Message-----
From: TGTX
To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
Date: Sunday, March 05, 2000 11:57 AM
Subject: School Teachers: Check Out Solar Greenhouses
>I recall their are a number of (public) school teachers that contribute to
>the aquaponics list. This site might be of interest to you and the kiddos
>
> http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/1983/1/83.01.13.x.html
>
>With these exercises and questions, the kids get some insight into the
>concepts of insolation, insulation, thermal mass, building orientation,
etc.
>
>Sorry......I don't mean to single out those folks still involved with
public
>schools...
>it's just that most of us home schoolers do this kind of thing all the time
>and it is not really novel or unusual for us....(my kids even helped build
>the full scale model greenhouses I have been involved with).....so.... even
>you home school folks, or single people, or grand masters of academic
>knowledge might find these questions and exercises fun and interesting!
>There.... I hope that includes all walks of life...
>
>Ted
>
>
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| Message 11 |
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Subject: Re: Experimental lighting questions
From: "beacnhrt"
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 16:19:09 -0600
Ted, The red light trick is pretty neat. It is amazing to me how easily fish
are spooked. I guess my dad was right when he used to tell us to be still
and stay quiet when fishing. Does spooking them have much impact on
production?
This last September at the Bedding Plant International Show I was told by
one of the High intensity lighting salesmen that his company had sponsored
research at Cornell in !998-1999 that showed significant weight gain in
poultry and significant reduction in pecking when HID lighting was used in
houses. I can't remember right now which company it was, but if anyone wants
a copy of the study it would be easy for me to find out who to contact. But,
if the red spectrum is obsorbed within the first one meter of water, would
this be of any interest?
melvin landers
-----Original Message-----
From: TGTX
To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
Date: Sunday, March 05, 2000 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: Experimental lighting questions
>Fred wrote:
>
>>we suspect that some colors may be calming to
>> the young fish. Because they are natural born killers, we need something
>> that will keep them from eating each other. We know that poultry
>> operations use colored lights to control antagonism, and want to see if
it
>> works on marine fish.
>
>Consider this: Most of the red light in the solar spectrum is absorbed in
>the first meter of the water column. That is why water bodies look blue,
>and when we go SCUBA diving things look pretty blue below about 20 feet or
>so. Therefore, if your culture system water is deeper than about 1 meter,
>and if your young fish stay on the bottom, perhaps you would expect less
>predation among the cohort if you used reddish-orange light such as sodium
>vapor....which would give you enough light to walk around and operate the
>system (pumps, valves, feeding, etc). I once worked in an enormous
closed,
>recirculation aquaculture system (about 100,000 square feet within a single
>metal building). At night, we used red fluorescent lights which provided
>just enough light to see by, while the critters went nighty-night. The
>problem was with sudden flashlight beams accidentally or deliberately
>pointed down into the water, or with noises that made the intensive
>aquacultured animals "do the wave" in the tanks....a spooky effect for
those
>of us zombies who had to do the night shift.
>
>Fred, you also said:
>>
>> Most of you use artificial illumination.
>
>I think you are assuming that most of us use artificial illumination. I
>don't know that for a fact vis a vis growing plants, since most aquaponics
>systems I am aware of rely mostly on natural illumination.
>
>> Any thoughts, hunches, pearls of wisdom?
>
>No pearls here, more like brain droppings....but I hope it helps the
thought
>process.
>
>Have a fun weekend, all.
>
>Ted
>
>
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| Message 12 |
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Subject: KOH
From: laberge@cil.qc.ca (LABERGE MARC)
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 20:15:51 -0500
Hi folks,
I'll gladly take advantage of this quiet period to ask more questions
... the other day I wanted to increase the pH by adding KOH to my system, I
added around 100 ml of 17% KOH to a few liters of water and spilled a little
here and there in the system. For those of you who have done this you may
have noticed the white cloud that takes place in the water.
Is this white cloud dead bacteria which I shocked due to the concentration
being too strong, or a normal reaction that takes place when adding KOH to
water.
Marc Laberge
Great White North
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| Message 13 |
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Subject: Useful tip
From: "beacnhrt"
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 19:59:13 -0600
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BF86DD.47E13860
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well Marc, I'm afraid we're caught in one of those movies where all the =
people are suddenly missing. Sorry I can't help you with your KOH =
problem. My last Chem. class was about 20 years ago. But, you gave me an =
idea. I think I will use this lull in activity to pass on a useful tip =
that most manufacturers never mention on to their customers. If you will =
paint the top side of your bows with white latex enamel paint, the =
reduction in heat gained by the bows will add about a year to the life =
of normal four year poly covering. Also, I noticed a problem in a couple =
houses I visited lately. If you want to use landscape fabric on the =
floor of your greenhouse, use the cheap kind that doesn't have the fuzzy =
surface. The fuzzy kind gets very slick when wet. El cheapo doesn't.
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BF86DD.47E13860
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well Marc, I'm afraid we're caught in one of those =
movies=20
where all the people are suddenly missing. Sorry I can't help you with =
your KOH=20
problem. My last Chem. class was about 20 years ago. But, you gave me an =
idea. I=20
think I will use this lull in activity to pass on a useful tip that most =
manufacturers never mention on to their customers. If you will paint the =
top=20
side of your bows with white latex enamel paint, the reduction in heat =
gained by=20
the bows will add about a year to the life of normal four year poly =
covering.=20
Also, I noticed a problem in a couple houses I visited lately. If you =
want to=20
use landscape fabric on the floor of your greenhouse, use the cheap kind =
that=20
doesn't have the fuzzy surface. The fuzzy kind gets very slick when wet. =
El=20
cheapo doesn't.
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BF86DD.47E13860--
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| Message 14 |
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Subject: mineralization process and heterotrophic bacteria
From: laberge@cil.qc.ca (LABERGE MARC)
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 21:02:31 -0500
Hi again Folks,
I have been wondering about the order of the mineralization process of
solid fish waste...here's the way I understand it.
once excreted and left in the system for a period of time heterotrophic
bacteria devour it consuming plenty of oxygen and creating a thick slime
which suffocates nitrofying bacteria in the system ( say we're talking about
a gravel biofilter/ bed ). These heterotrophic bacteria produce ammonia and
CO2, coat plant roots and prevent the plant from absorbing the required
nutrients and O2 in the water.This process in completely temperature
dependent and the processing speed of the bacteria doubles with every 10
degrees Celsius ( I think ). so if the temperature of a system is 10 C lower
than that of another system , you would expect to need a growing bed of
twice the size since the bacteria are working at half the speed.
In recirc systems heterotrophic bacteria are a big nono since they release
ammonia into the system, in aquaponic systems these bacteria are just as
important as the nitrfying bacteria...
I always thought that fungus would get to the fish waste before the
heterotrophic bacteria and if so, wouldn't the whole mineralization process
be for the purpose of the fungus's benefit .
Please feel free to comment / correct me on my post
Thank You
Marc Laberge
Mont Tremblant
Quebec.Canada
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| Message 15 |
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Subject: Re: KOH
From: "TGTX"
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 21:39:47 -0600
> Is this white cloud dead bacteria which I shocked due to the concentration
> being too strong, or a normal reaction that takes place when adding KOH to
> water.
>
> Marc Laberge
> Great White North
Marc, the "white cloud" you are seeing is a localized, temporary
precipitation of Calcium and Magnesium Hydroxides and Carbonates which
develop when the high pH KOH solution is introduced to your water. The
localized mixing zone of very high pH from the introduced, concentrated KOH
causes the "white cloud" of hydroxides and carbonates to form for a time.
It is not "dead bacteria".
Ted
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| Message 16 |
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Subject: Re: mineralization process and heterotrophic bacteria
From: "TGTX"
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 22:04:24 -0600
Marc, you wrote:
> once excreted and left in the system for a period of time
heterotrophic
> bacteria devour it consuming plenty of oxygen and creating a thick slime
> which suffocates nitrofying bacteria in the system ( say we're talking
about
> a gravel biofilter/ bed ).
"Left in the system" is the key to your statement. If solids accumulate
without being diffussed over a broad surface area for processing, or removed
by settling and pumping out......then, yes, of course heterotrophic
bacterial biomass and fish feed, feces, and other organic matter (sludge)
will accumulate....and in that kind of situation or
environment.....heterotrophs can and do "compete" against nitrifying
bacteria.......BUT....and this is a big BUT..... IF you think in terms of
zones, then one part of the biofilter can harbor the organic matter
consuming heterotrophs, while another (downstream) part of the biofilter can
harbor the nitrifiers...see?
You wrote:
>These heterotrophic bacteria produce ammonia and
> CO2, coat plant roots and prevent the plant from absorbing the required
> nutrients and O2 in the water.
Hold the phone here, Marc.......(Please don't flame me for saying "hold the
phone", for crying out loud)..... We are talking about differences in degree
here...But, yeah, if the sludge is excessive then what you have described
might occur...maybe....
> In recirc systems heterotrophic bacteria are a big nono since they release
> ammonia into the system, in aquaponic systems these bacteria are just as
> important as the nitrfying bacteria...
I would take exception to the statement that heterotrophic bacteria in
"conventional" recirc systems are a big no-no.....since they OBVIOUSLY exist
in great abundance in those systems.....They are in the water column...they
are in the biofilter...yada...yada...
I think you might mean the hetertrophic to nitrifier bacterial biomass ratio
is criticial in "conventional", ie., non-aquaponic, recirc systems, but
then, that is also true, but in a different way, in aquaponic systems...see?
> I always thought that fungus would get to the fish waste before the
> heterotrophic bacteria and if so, wouldn't the whole mineralization
process
> be for the purpose of the fungus's benefit .
If the fish waste solids are not removed or processed rapidly enough in an
aquatic recirc system, then fungal biomass will develop rapidly...I have
seen this when solids hang out too long in a tank.......this has much to do
with the feed load and the recirculation rate...and the oxygen
distribution... and the operating procedures for removing or not removing
solids as they accumulate.... and the ability of the biofilter to do its
thing...so some of what you say about the fungus is true...but it is never
either fungus or bacteria...they are all both present and active...just in
different ratios....see??
Ted
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