Aquaponics Digest - Fri 03/31/00
Message 1: Re: Duckweed data
from Tony Cooper
Message 2: Re: Duckweed data
from "TGTX"
Message 3: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Thu 03/30/00
from DAVEINBHAM
Message 4: Aluminum roof pans
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 5: Re: Alaska
from Raul Vergueiro Martins
Message 6: Re: Alaska
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 7: red claw
from "timjohanns"
Message 8: Re: red claw
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 9: Re: [Aquaponics subscribe/unsubscribe instructions]
from Bill
Message 10: Re: red claw
from Jenny Reed
Message 11: a question on lobster
from Jenny Reed
Message 12: red claw
from "timjohanns"
Message 13: lobster
from "timjohanns"
Message 14: Re: lobster
from Jenny Reed
Message 15: lobster
from "timjohanns"
Message 16: Re: a question on lobster
from "beacnhrt"
Message 17: Re: a question on lobster
from CAVM
Message 18: Lobster - More on the subject
from Brian Gracia
Message 19: Re: lobster
from "Sam Levy"
Message 20: Re: a question on lobster
from "Sam Levy"
Message 21: Aquaponics in Cordova?
from Pete Peschang
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Subject: Re: Duckweed data
From: Tony Cooper
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 15:36:48 -0800
>O.K., so does that mean 20 grams of duckweed grows into 40 grams of duckweed
>in 2-3 days, whereas 70 grams of Azolla grows into 140 grams of Azolla in
>3-4 days?
>(wet weights here).
>?If so, that is about 8 grams new growth of duckweed biomass per day per
>square foot?
>And that is about 20 grams new growth of Azolla biomass per day per square
>foot?
>Do those figures/assumptions sound about right to you?
>Ted
Yes i think that is near the mark. At least the doubled growth looks
more or less equal in size.
I think the following link may have what you are looking for.
http://homepages.infoseek.com/~sfte/lemnaazolla.html
For TX residents see:
http://www.tripplebrookfarm.com/iplants/Azolla.html
The University of the Philippines Los Banos grows high yielding Azolla
for Rice/Fish/Azolla culture i assume because of the higher yield than
Duckweed.
I haven't seen any Duckweed there anyway.
Tony
Tony
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Subject: Re: Duckweed data
From: "TGTX"
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 06:30:28 -0600
> I think the following link may have what you are looking for.
>
> http://homepages.infoseek.com/~sfte/lemnaazolla.html
>
> For TX residents see:
>
> http://www.tripplebrookfarm.com/iplants/Azolla.html
>
Yes indeedy....that should do it.....Collating now....
Appreciate 'ya.
Ted
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Subject: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Thu 03/30/00
From: DAVEINBHAM
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 11:02:41 EST
In a message dated 03/31/2000 12:04:58 AM Central Standard Time,
aquaponics-digest-request@townsqr.com writes:
<< Subject: Re: duckweed data
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:01:47 -0500
> Is it okay to use aluminum, such as eves trough material or roofing, to
make
> the hydroponic grow beds that would feed the fish tanks?
The aluminum has to be coated. My growing beds are aluminum roof pans
which are coated with a baked enamel finish.
Adriana
>>
******************************************************************************
**********
Adriana,
What, exactly, are those "aluminum roof pans" I keep hearing about on this
net and others ? No one around here ( Birmingham, Alabama ) has ever heard
about them. Are they something endemic to south Florida ?
Regards,
Dave Holder
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Subject: Aluminum roof pans
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 12:00:52 -0500
> What, exactly, are those "aluminum roof pans" I keep hearing about on this
> net and others ? No one around here ( Birmingham, Alabama ) has ever heard
> about them. Are they something endemic to south Florida ?
Hi Dave,
What you are looking for is the material used to make aluminum carport
roofs. Often it is used in mobile home parks for carports or additions,
so I would think that your local aluminum suppliers can get some. See a
carport made with this at:
http://www.rontimco.com/index.html. and at
http://www.rontimco.com/abawn3a.htm
The aluminum growing trays that I use are shown on page 284 of the
Aquatic Ecosystems catalog and are shown in an A-frame arrangement at
http://www.aquaticecosystems.com/Aquatic1v1/search_spe.icl?orderidentifier=ID933401760343376F7978161969&eflag=0&iteminfo4=0&itmid=2856&passitemid=2856&srcid=HT10&srcdoc=index%2Eicl%3Forderidentifier%3DID933401760343376F7978161969&sourcedoc=index.icl?orderidentifier=ID933401760343376F7978161969&srcquantity=
The picture shows 2 trays hooked together, if you don't do the A-frame
(which is not justified in our climates) then they should go 4 across,
giving you 4' wide beds which allow you to harvest from both sides.
Adriana
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Subject: Re: Alaska
From: Raul Vergueiro Martins
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 10:54:54 +0700
Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta wrote:
> > If the primary obstacle is power generation and methane generated from
> > fish waste is a viable option, my primary concern is whether your system
> > is environmentally friendly? Our tribe's environmental program recently
> > conducted a fish waste study that documented the problem and other
> > tribal members have been doing biosampling of sea otters that are dying
> > from parasites they're getting from the fish waste. There's definitely
> > a problem but people won't get excited about a solution that creates
> > another problem.
>
> Pete,
> The guy you need to get in touch with is Jacky Foo . He
> coordinates a lot of international research related to this. What you
> probably want to investigate is setting up a biodigester to generate
> methane gas from the fish waste. Good luck, I can relate to the burnout
> associated with community service/activist roles.
>
> Adriana
Hy Adriana:
I believe that fishes do not excrete sufficient feces to run a biodigestor for
lthe production of methane.
You must consider that methane produced in a biodigester is part of a gas mix.
This mix, normaly known as biogas, reaches no more than 2,0 / 3,0% calculated
over the weight of feces "in natura".
Rarelly you can reach 3,5% when working with feces from hens in egg producion.
In this small quantity of biogas, 60,0% is methane, about 40,0% is carbonic
gas, with small quantities of H2S.
The great value of a biodigester, lies in the production of the
bio-fertilizer.
We have many years in the construction of large sizes of single and multi
stage biodigesters.
If we can be of any help to you, don't hesitate in contacting us.
Raul Vergueiro Martins
rvm@sti.com.br
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Subject: Re: Alaska
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 17:59:55 -0500
> I believe that fishes do not excrete sufficient feces to run a biodigestor for
> lthe production of methane.
Raul,
Perhaps I misunderstood Pete's original post. I thought that Pete was
talking about large quantities of fishery industry waste being available
locally. My suggestion was that some of these wastes be run through a
biodigester, rather than dumped in the bays. This would generate the
necessary heat for an aquaponic operation in Alaska, while another
portion of the fish waste could be processed into feed.
Adriana
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Subject: red claw
From: "timjohanns"
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 17:44:27 -0800
Wondering if any one out there has had an adventure with red claw and could
suggest a reliable source for stock or juveniles? Do they carry any diseases
that would cross over to tilapia or vice-versa if they were in the same
circulatory water system, but not in the same tank? As I understand it, they
have the same water and temperature requirements and acclimate well to
changes in both, and tolerate a wide variety of food stuffs. Like the
turtles we raise, they could easily be raised in shallow beds beneath the
bio-beds as they do not require full spectrum light to convert energies like
turtles, it would be a good use of otherwise wasted space, or worms could
also occupy that void in the same size structures. Just some food for
thought. Looking for a way to broaden my seafood raising capabilities
without building more structures, like cold frames, I have to bribe my
neighbors to keep them from complaining now. I am trying to utilize all
available spaces. I have names of 10 or so red-claw suppliers, are there any
bad ones to anyones knowledge?
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Subject: Re: red claw
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 18:58:52 -0500
> Wondering if any one out there has had an adventure with red claw and could
> suggest a reliable source for stock or juveniles?
Tim,
I suggest that you search the list archives, there's been discussion
about this on and off over the past couple of years. I don't believe
anybody has had very good success with them. Cannibalism is a huge
problem if I recall.
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Subject: Re: [Aquaponics subscribe/unsubscribe instructions]
From: Bill
Date: 31 Mar 00 16:08:31 PST
Unsubscribe
Folks,
I have gotten busier lately, and behind in mail. Missed a few weeks
back. Unfortunate timing I see. Marc, no sweat. We all have a bad
hair day now and then. That the response ate at you, speaks well...
tho' I'd like to take polite exception to being referred to as a fly, in =
any
sense. The board room is filled with focused automotons at times; cutthr=
oats
at others. I'm sorry this is so very late. Apologies ought to be addres=
sed
forthwith. Of course... as I said.
Really I took no offense (and give none here) I merely considered the sou=
rce. =
I knew what I was talking about. Been there before due to start ups. In=
fact, I was advised by a member, just such a situation did exist. Legall=
y, he
protected his company well by so stating. However, due to some investmen=
ts my
spouse at the time had made, I was no longer in a position to go head to =
head
with an established company. What had been only a concept there, and dow=
n
played, not has been brought to new light.
I have a lot of relatives who are somehow in aquaponics, auquaculture, ma=
rine
biology, and the like. Aquaponics was the second List I believe I got on=
=2E So
you can see I have an interest. A week after I signed on, being an R&D t=
ype I
knew I needed a Tilapia List also. Found one.
In Advanced Digital in college (probably basic digital now ) my partne=
r and
I were the only team that had first time, every time, functioning project=
s. =
we were not hasty, but methodical. We were always in the first quarter d=
one
also. So I knew I needed to look into these almost universally used Tila=
pia. =
Even if I didn't grow them, the data for the "farms" would likely all be
transposed in terms of this critter. From there, I could leapfrog to oth=
er
species, on a proportioanl basis.
However, I found myself seeing a floundering soul, losing his tank. i br=
oke
out of lurk mode to relate what I knew from aquarium experience. It was =
later
confirmed by another. Upon a return to specicy doseage, I found myself
UnSubbed. Well, it was a good List. Tho' I have functioned as a Pro in
aquatic systems, I didn't meet the qualification of being presently an ac=
tive
Tilapis grower/farmer.
I suppose the advise we had offered was not appropriate for non-research =
scale
commercial systems, and that gave me away. Some have expressed their sor=
row
privately. Thanks for the sentiment. I can see their side, I think. No=
explanation was offered.
For those who claimed free speech here, thank you. But I do see the othe=
r
side of the coin. I am sorry for the slightly Ot threads I was a part of=
, and
did in fact, much later make a site just to accomdate OT but related,
threads.
Things have a way of rearing their heads at inopportune times, and while =
I
carry loads most cannot consider, something I suppose is akin to a Post
Tramatic Stress leaves me vulnerable to certain much smaller issues. =
Actually, I deal well with issues. Making an issue personal, removes
objective perspective. I usually work in a start-up capacity. A lot of
different folks there. A lot of issues.
There's a joke about some guys on an island who draw straws to fetch a bo=
ats
floating by. They succumb, 1 by 1, in the shark infested waters. Finall=
y the
coporate lawyer's number comes up. He's about to the boat... the fins ar=
e
seen closing in, then suddenly disperse! They ask in amazement later, wh=
at
transpired. The reply was in discussion with the sharks, they had agreed=
to
give him professional courtesy.
I feel issues, are interesting. In R&D, everything is "never been tried.=
" =
All ideas are desired, even if known bad, as someone may put a twist on j=
ust
one of them, for a coup. Sticking with issues, not people, is an earmark=
of a
good focus.
Aquaponics is finally getting to data I could put in Excel, and discover
relationships. But again, other things come up. I am UnSubscribing from=
Lists. I may contnue to support those I began, or took over, and a smal=
l one
or two, as they are needy. And my afidz beckon.
Steve, Thx for the invite... we'll stay in touch I hope.
Paula, Barry, Bill, Marc's, Adrianna, and all those with whom I've
become off list friends, thanks all! Ted, you oughta be drawin' pay! Ke=
ep on
keepin' on...!
You know where to find me, but no sorrows, eh mates?
My Best,
Bill
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Subject: Re: red claw
From: Jenny Reed
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 19:18:04 -0500
At 05:44 PM 3/31/00 -0800, you wrote:
>Wondering if any one out there has had an adventure with red claw and could
>suggest a reliable source for stock or juveniles? Do they carry any diseases
What IS red claw?
--a stupid newbie
--Jenny
Reed.
jenny@steeds.com
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Subject: a question on lobster
From: Jenny Reed
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 19:23:52 -0500
Well, since I'm asking questions anyway......
I had a good, long talk with my spousal unit tonight. I have brought up
the possibility of spirulina tanks many times before, and every time I do,
the question is always, "Didn't I read that you can raise lobster in
spirulina tanks?" Well, this time, I discussed what little I know of
aquaponics, to gauge a reaction.... and, not too surprisingly, the reaction
was, "Great - can you do LOBSTER with that?"
The word lobster always engenders lots of lick-lipping, lick-smacking, and
a beautific smile.
So, well, never mind that I can't stand lobster myself *grin* - what I
think I'd better find out is, can we do lobster with that? :)
(And, what does it take to "do lobster"?)
Smile!
--Jenny
Reed.
jenny@steeds.com
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Subject: red claw
From: "timjohanns"
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 18:17:43 -0800
red claw are a species of freshwater crayfish that grow to be very large in
proportion to the mudbugs (crayfish) of the southern states. They are of the
genus Cherax, also called red claw, and yabbies, the later being the smaller
species, red claw can achieve 1 lb. status in about 12-14 months, just
something I wanted to play with on a personal consumption scale, a few
hundred or so in small tanks, or trays beneath my biobeds, without crowding
them. Thanks for the reply, how do I access these archives you have
suggested?
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Subject: lobster
From: "timjohanns"
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 18:28:54 -0800
Lobster, as in the true lobster, marine-type, do not appear to be feasible
live stock from an economic standpoint in most places, due to water quality,
temperature and if I have been informed correctly in my research of the
subject, pressure requirements, ie. they come from deep water, need that
deep water pressure, cold water, like 50 degrees cold and the easy one,
dark. since we have the cold req, that says slow growth to me. The
freshwater marron grow to two pounds in under two years and have more
requirements than red claw or yabbies, but far less than lobster.
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Subject: Re: lobster
From: Jenny Reed
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 19:48:59 -0500
At 06:28 PM 3/31/00 -0800, you wrote:
>Lobster, as in the true lobster, marine-type, do not appear to be feasible
>live stock from an economic standpoint in most places, due to water quality,
>temperature and if I have been informed correctly in my research of the
>subject, pressure requirements, ie. they come from deep water, need that
>deep water pressure, cold water, like 50 degrees cold and the easy one,
>dark. since we have the cold req, that says slow growth to me. The
>freshwater marron grow to two pounds in under two years and have more
>requirements than red claw or yabbies, but far less than lobster.
>
Thank you for BOTH your fast replies.....
Okay, so they're very expensive, and probably not too easy to do. But,
just for the sake of argument, what do they eat? And is there any way to
create the pressure they require other than having real DEEP tanks?
Thanks :)
--Jenny
Reed.
jenny@steeds.com
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Subject: lobster
From: "timjohanns"
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 19:33:51 -0800
well I only ass ume this would be done with hyperbaric chamber stuff but I
really don't know. as far as food goes they will eat anything. decaying
meats etc, greens, fish food.
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Subject: Re: a question on lobster
From: "beacnhrt"
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 21:01:22 -0600
Hi Jenny,
At the risk of taking heat from all of the Lobster lovers, I must advise
you to tell your husband that there are many of us in the world that think
that lobster is for those who cannot find enough crayfish to eat.
melvin landers
-----Original Message-----
From: Jenny Reed
To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
Date: Friday, March 31, 2000 5:58 PM
Subject: a question on lobster
>Well, since I'm asking questions anyway......
>
>I had a good, long talk with my spousal unit tonight. I have brought up
>the possibility of spirulina tanks many times before, and every time I do,
>the question is always, "Didn't I read that you can raise lobster in
>spirulina tanks?" Well, this time, I discussed what little I know of
>aquaponics, to gauge a reaction.... and, not too surprisingly, the reaction
>was, "Great - can you do LOBSTER with that?"
>
>The word lobster always engenders lots of lick-lipping, lick-smacking, and
>a beautific smile.
>
>So, well, never mind that I can't stand lobster myself *grin* - what I
>think I'd better find out is, can we do lobster with that? :)
>
>(And, what does it take to "do lobster"?)
>
>Smile!
>
>
>
>--Jenny
> Reed.
>jenny@steeds.com
>
>
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Subject: Re: a question on lobster
From: CAVM
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 22:29:05 EST
Regarding lobster, can their requirements for habitat be satisfied by some of
the old deep pit coal mines in Kentucky? The water is clean and pH of 7 in
some of them and they are very deep in some cases.
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Subject: Lobster - More on the subject
From: Brian Gracia
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 22:29:58 -0600
Hey Everyone,
I just wanted to add my two cents the lobster discussion. Lobsters can be
raised in tanks on land. They do require cold water though. There is a
business in Hawaii that is located in an industrial park that raises
lobsters. The park brings up cold water from deep within the ocean by
piping it to the facilities. Each business then uses the water
accordingly. One raises spirilina algae, one lobsters, and others use the
water to cool industrial processes and for air conditioning.
Recently within the last 2-3 weeks, I caught the last 4 minutes of a show
that showed a man hand feeding a lobster a stunned fish. The lobster took
the fish right out of his hands! So, it can be done. I do understand
though, that the growing process is slow.
TTYL
Brian Gracia
********************************************
Better Produce through Better Control
********************************************
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Subject: Re: lobster
From: "Sam Levy"
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 20:43:03 PST
>From: "timjohanns"
>Lobster, as in the true lobster, marine-type, do not appear to be feasible
>live stock from an economic standpoint in most places, due to water
>quality,
>temperature and if I have been informed correctly in my research of the
>subject, pressure requirements, ie. they come from deep water, need that
>deep water pressure, cold water, like 50 degrees cold and the easy one,
>dark. since we have the cold req, that says slow growth to me.
>
tim--
lobster come from marine waters & are not culturable in freshwater (to my
knowledge). my understanding was tht culture at 25 degrees c will shave one
third to one half off the grow out time. there were (and may still
be--haven't looked into it for a while) major difficulties in the following
areas: reproduction and larval rearing, nutrition, management--this species
is highly cannibalistic coupled with non-synchronous molting (read:perfect
prey). the expected grow out time would be two -three years. this info is a
few years old--on the other hand, i haven't noticed any lobster farms noted
in the aquaculture press either.
sam
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Subject: Re: a question on lobster
From: "Sam Levy"
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 20:47:24 PST
>From: CAVM
>
>
>Regarding lobster, can their requirements for habitat be satisfied by some
>of
>the old deep pit coal mines in Kentucky? The water is clean and pH of 7 in
>some of them and they are very deep in some cases.
lobster do not need to be cultured at depths greater than 100 cm & can
probably be cultured in shallower tanks. also, like cherax, for many people
on the list these are exotics 7 as such may require special permitting.
sam
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Subject: Aquaponics in Cordova?
From: Pete Peschang
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 20:38:37 -0900
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi Folks,
Well, I bit the bullet and sent the emails from our discussions on the
newsgroup about aquaponics, fish waste, ect to members of every group in
Cordova I could think of and even cced the Governor, et al. How's that
for guts? lol Nothing ventured, nothing gained. I'm not a scientist but
something tells me that this was a good thing to do. I took the liberty
of editing out some of my own rambling and only did minor spell check
stuff to other posts so as not to change any content.
I expect that there may be some added traffic here. My concern is that
it not disrupt or otherwise disturb the good folks on this newsgroup.
Pamela was very gracious to me when I joined and the last thing I want
to do is be disrespectful......pete
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Fwd: Aquaponics in Cordova?
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 19:10:19 -0900
From: ppeschang@tribalnet.org (Pete Peschang)
To: peschang@ptialaska.net
Hello All,
The following information in the attached document (word 97) is from
some
personal research that I was doing on aquaponics. The more I look into
it, the more I began to see how this could have great potential for
Cordova as well as other towns in coastal Alaska. As you will see, I
received some enthusiastic responses to the questions I posed from the
newsgroup and some folks are ready to come up and demonstrate the
technology. It may be a total waste of time but my gut tells me that it
would work, so I urge you to at least check it out for yourselves and
join
in the discussion. I tried to email all of the groups that I thought
might be interested but I obviously don't have the email addresses of
everyone in those groups so please share the information with others who
may be interested. If it doesn't work, I apologize for wasting your
time.
If it works, consider it a parting gift from me.
Best Wishes.......pete
ps I am sending this via tribalnet because of the access to email
addresses. Please understand that this is from me personally and is not
official business from the Native Village of Eyak.
Pete Peschang
Executive Director
Native Village of Eyak
PO Box 1388
Cordova, AK. 99574
Ph (907) 424-7738
Fax (907) 424-7739
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