Aquaponics Digest - Wed 04/05/00
Message 1: Re: benders
from tvoivozhd
Message 2: Re: greenhouse
from Ronald Polka
Message 3: Re: greenhouse
from "bennett"
Message 4: Re: greenhouse
from Scott Bowling
Message 5: Re: greenhouse
from "bennett"
Message 6: Re: greenhouse
from "Barry Thomas"
Message 7: for the record
from "timjohanns"
Message 8: pipe size reply
from "timjohanns"
Message 9: reply to the guy on the cliff-side
from "timjohanns"
Message 10: Re: greenhouse
from "bennett"
Message 11: Re: greenhouse
from "Loren"
Message 12: Re: for the record
from tvoivozhd
Message 13: still no tact,still not impressed
from "timjohanns"
Message 14: Time out - was Re: still no tact,still not impressed
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 15: Re: help
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 16: Fwd. ccQuotations: Here's Your Daily Quotation
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 17: ants
from "Jay Myers"
Message 18: Re: Alaska - aquaponics and digesters
from "beacnhrt"
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Subject: Re: benders
From: tvoivozhd
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 07:58:06 -0400
Tvoivoizhd---oh, for god's sake, that's the kind of answer you ger if you have
never bent tubing in large arcs and have not the slightest comprehension of the
principle or tools involved. You are talking about a small pipe bender that a
plumber would use. It will not make a uniform bend for a large radius---that is
what a roll-former for pipe is intended for and does. Using the Harbor Freight
gadget would by like trying to make a round boiler with a sheet metal brake.
timjohanns wrote:
> harbor freight salvage co. out of california has a hydraulic pipe bender for
> 99.00 and the shipping is free. it's not power-fed like the one the other
> guy is talking about but it's priced right. I buy a lot of tools, they're
> off-branded stuff but I have thousands of dollars worth that have withstood
> commercial use for many years. you can get a catalog by calling
> 1-800-423-2567 or visit them at harborfreight.com, I sound like a sales guy
> here but if you really have a lot of time on your hands and want to bend
> your own here's an avenue
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Subject: Re: greenhouse
From: Ronald Polka
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 10:40:05 -0600
At 12:55 AM 4/5/2000 -0400, you wrote:
>>I bought cold-frame arcs for twenty-one dollars each brand new, that pipe
>>was twelve dollars to buy unformed can one justify bending?
>>
>What size (specs. please) pipe did you use?
>For a greenhouse, how close together would you space the arcs? I'm just
>trying to get a real rough estimate of how much $$$ I'll need in the
>upcoming months to build a greenhouse approximately 30X80. We have a lot of
>poplar and oak lumber, and are pretty good improvisors, but.....
>
>
Bennett
Standard arch spacing in quonset style greenhouses is 4, 5, and 6 feet,
depending on the projected loading. Jaderloon sells quonset style houses
with Gatorshield galvanized pipe arches that provide loading of 18 lbs/sq
ft at 4 ft, 15 psf at 5 ft, and 12 psf at 6 ft spacing. If greater loading
is required, such as for high snow loading or high winds than an arch that
is strengthened with a truss design may be preferable. This can increase
the loading up to 25 psf, Ludy greenhouses. If rigid glazing is used this
may put a constraint on arch spacing for glazing mounting. In the overall
scheme of things the cost for structural materials is only a portion of the
overall cost. Money saved on bending you own pipe may or may not be cost
effective. Additionally there is an added advantage to using structural
materials that have been designed as a package. Ease of installation and
and confidence in structural stability may make a package from a
manufacturer preferable. That is an individual judgement call.
When determining overall greenhouse costs, the price tag can vary widely.
In commercial systems when all costs are considered, including heating,
cooling, electrical, and plumbing, depending on the complexity of the
design the costs may range from $5 to $10 per square foot or more. Money
can be saved on various aspects of construction depending on the individual
situation.
Ron Polka
Southwest Technology Development Institute
New Mexico State University
Box 30001, Dept 3SOL
Las Cruces, NM 88003
rpolka@nmsu.edu
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Subject: Re: greenhouse
From: "bennett"
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 13:29:58 -0400
>effective. Additionally there is an added advantage to using structural
>materials that have been designed as a package. Ease of installation and
>and confidence in structural stability may make a package from a
>manufacturer preferable. That is an individual judgement call.
>
Thank you so much. My concern about purchasing a package is
that whenever I've requested designs that are for building on a
hillside, I get negative responses. It seemsthere's no such thing
as a package designed to go on a hillside. Where I live, there's
no way to get a level space more than about 8X10.
*** Are there any budding designers out there who'd like to
exercise their skills? ***
D.Bennett
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Subject: Re: greenhouse
From: Scott Bowling
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 13:46:30 -0400
bennett wrote:
>
> >effective. Additionally there is an added advantage to using
> >structural materials that have been designed as a package. Ease of
> > installation and and confidence in structural stability may make a
> > package from a manufacturer preferable.
>
> Thank you so much. My concern about purchasing a package is
> that whenever I've requested designs that are for building on a
> hillside, I get negative responses. It seemsthere's no such thing
> as a package designed to go on a hillside. Where I live, there's
> no way to get a level space more than about 8X10.
>
Well, you can level the field by grading, excavating, filling or
creating some form of foundation. A simple post or pier (poured or
block) system would work well to support a top cap to mount the
structural elements to. Depending on just how much variance you're
compensating for and the conditions of the area, you may or may not have
to use some form of siding to cover it.
Scott Bowling
scottbff@erols.com
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Subject: Re: greenhouse
From: "bennett"
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:58:46 -0400
>Well, you can level the field by grading, excavating, filling or
>creating some form of foundation. A simple post or pier (poured or
>block) system would work well to support a top cap to mount the
>structural elements to. Depending on just how much variance you're
>compensating for and the conditions of the area, you may or may not have
>to use some form of siding to cover it.
>
No, none of that will work here. The hillsides (nearly cliffsides) are much
too steep. Below the steep parts are severe ground faults. Even if the
footers, etc. of a structure were level and poured very deep, within three
years it would be severely broken apart from underground shifts of the
rockplate. The only possible way to do a long greenhouse using a "level"
design would be to break it into a series of small houses. That's not what
I want. A hillside design, probably plastic hoop could be used though, I
believe.
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Subject: Re: greenhouse
From: "Barry Thomas"
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 21:56:54 +0100
> > Well, you can level the field by grading, excavating,
> > filling orcreating some form of foundation.
> No, none of that will work here. The hillsides (nearly cliffsides)
are much
> too steep. Below the steep parts are severe ground faults.
As the ground is so unreliable in your area, I would have thought that
any structure mounted into it would have the same problems you mention?
One possibility might be to build the GH on pads or a "raft" of some
sort but the structure would either need to flex in a predictable way or
be ridgid enough to remain fairly flat as the points of support vary
with time. I am not an engineer but would would suspect that anything
like this is going to be too expensive and too vulnerable to sudden,
larger shifts. Hanging the whole lot on the kind of slope you describe
doesn't make things easier.
I believe (but am happy to be proved wrong) that a number of small units
is going to be about your only viable option. Perhaps some kind of large
"clamshell" type affair rather than walk-in, to reduce costs per unit?
Not ideal but neither is the environment. It would carry the big
advantage of making the system as a whole very damage tolerant though.
Just a few thoughts - I'd like to hear how you finally do it.
Barry
barrythomas@btinternet.com
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Subject: for the record
From: "timjohanns"
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 18:47:33 -0700
last evening I received a very rude and condescending reply in regard to
benders, and would like to post a rebuttal. First of all, I was not talking
about a small, manual bender used by plumbers, the unit in question is a
twelve ton hydraulic unit that if fed thru slowly WILL bend large arcs, I've
done it personally. I ran a power equipment business for ten years, and have
run a multi-faceted construction contracting business, that includes wiring
and yes, PLUMBING to name a few for the last ten years, to say I have more
than a running knowledge of things mechanical is a gross understatement.
Most of the people on this list are helpful and considerate, appreciating
any and or all information that is offered, your inflated, condescending
comments were neither warranted or welcomed. In the words of the Disney
character, Thumper, "If you can't say something nice, then don't say noth'in
at all" Mr.Tvoivozhd !!!!!
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Subject: pipe size reply
From: "timjohanns"
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 18:57:55 -0700
This particular unit was only fourteen feet wide, a cold frame of inch and
three-eighths tubing, my point was that it is hard to bend uniform arcs,
BUT, when a gothic style is utilzed this problem is eliminated in smaller
units. If you are in a remote area, and have a generator that will
accomodate a 110-volt wire welder, tubes can be welded with cross pieces for
structural support, but in my opinion, the pre-fab units are a better-buy,
unless you have no chioce.
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Subject: reply to the guy on the cliff-side
From: "timjohanns"
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 19:01:45 -0700
can a wide enough area be cleared, say fifteen feet wide to utilize cuttting
arc in half to create a long narrow lean-to type structure? or is the 30'
wide unit absolutely needed?
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Subject: Re: greenhouse
From: "bennett"
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 21:15:44 -0400
>As the ground is so unreliable in your area, I would have thought that
>any structure mounted into it would have the same problems you mention?
>
Well, I was thinking that a plastic covered hoophouse
might not be quite as heavy as some structures and
could give with the ground without breaking.
The inside of the house will be sort of terraced. So
the suggestion of the half-hoops in lean-to style is
also food for thought. Thank you.
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Subject: Re: greenhouse
From: "Loren"
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 20:36:11 -0500
D. Bennett
Sounds like you just need to dig into the sun side of a slope and build
your greenhouse from the highwall. Look at the last pix in my web site
below. This structure was built that way with a cut into a hill and a home
set into the excavation. In your case you would want to stabilize the
hillside then shoot your arc from the highwall to provide the sunlite on
your plants and pools. I'm not a budding designer, I've been at this off
and on for over 20 years, but if you want some suggestions as you get your
site scoped out, just let me know
Loren
http://paisite.com/sunlife/index.htm
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> From: bennett
> To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
> Subject: Re: greenhouse
> Date: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 12:29 PM
>
> >effective. Additionally there is an added advantage to using structural
> >materials that have been designed as a package. Ease of installation and
> >and confidence in structural stability may make a package from a
> >manufacturer preferable. That is an individual judgement call.
> >
> Thank you so much. My concern about purchasing a package is
> that whenever I've requested designs that are for building on a
> hillside, I get negative responses. It seemsthere's no such thing
> as a package designed to go on a hillside. Where I live, there's
> no way to get a level space more than about 8X10.
> *** Are there any budding designers out there who'd like to
> exercise their skills? ***
> D.Bennett
>
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Subject: Re: for the record
From: tvoivozhd
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 22:26:40 -0400
timjohanns wrote:
> last evening I received a very rude and condescending reply in regard to
> benders, and would like to post a rebuttal. First of all, I was not talking
> about a small, manual bender used by plumbers, the unit in question is a
> twelve ton hydraulic unit that if fed thru slowly WILL bend large arcs, I've
> done it personally. I ran a power equipment business for ten years, and have
> run a multi-faceted construction contracting business, that includes wiring
> and yes, PLUMBING to name a few for the last ten years, to say I have more
> than a running knowledge of things mechanical is a gross understatement.
> (snip)
Tvoivozhd---Your rebuttal is pretty feeble. The thing you are talking about is
a small hand-operated bottle jack which presses one of six curved attachments
against an inserted piece of pipe which is bent between two pulleys on the
opposite side. It is a plumbers tool, designed expressly to bend small arcs,
not big ones. You do not "feed" pipe into an intermittent bender, you "feed"
pipe into a roll-former with one or more of the pipe-rolls being powered in some
way, pulling the pipe through by friction.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/taf/DisplayItem.taf?ItemNumber=38024 (This
Harbor Freight toy costs $119.99)
Your advice was bad---I do not imply it was intentionally bad, you simply did
not understand the principle involved, and persist in defending error instead of
acknowledging it. Next time you wax indignant about well-warranted criticism,
do some research so your rebuttal is founded on fact, not fiction. Go to an
awning dealer that rolls long pieces of pipe in semi-circles as a daily routine
and you will see the type of equipment that is needed for this type of work.
You cannot make uniform bends in this type of machine, no two ribs would be the
same.
It is possible to make a homemade roll-former for pipe. Mother Earth News,
Issue #65, September-October, 1980, page 154 shows how to make a roll-former for
EMT. A roll-former for heavier wall pipe would have to be more strongly built.
This employs a plain hand-crank to drive the middle wheel. For small-diameter
pipe a longer handle would be necessary, and for larger diameter pipe, tlhe
center roll would have to be driven by a crank-driven set of gears, or better, a
worm-drive electric motor. The MEN roll-former, incidentally was designed
specifically to make ribs for small greenhouses described in the same issue.
You seem to think that running a small business somehow qualifies you to
pontificate on matters of which you have no direct knowledge. A comparison may
clarify matters somewhat. At age 22 I was Group Engineering Officer of the
second largest aircraft modification depot in the world. My understanding of
machinery may be as profound as yours..
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Subject: still no tact,still not impressed
From: "timjohanns"
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 21:50:30 -0700
It's obvious your ego supercedes your diplomas as you have twice missed a
simple point. It does work. I don't care if you have more degrees than a
thermometer, your title means bubkis, I too have worked with title holders,
most miss the mark, they just aren't so arogant. As he said in his reply,
the lean-to idea is food for thought..chew on it.
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Subject: Time out - was Re: still no tact,still not impressed
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 22:26:38 -0500
At 09:50 PM 04/05/2000 -0700, you wrote:
>It's obvious your ego supercedes your diplomas as you have twice missed a
>simple point. It does work. I don't care if you have more degrees than a
>thermometer, your title means bubkis, I too have worked with title holders,
>most miss the mark, they just aren't so arogant. As he said in his reply,
>the lean-to idea is food for thought..chew on it.
Gentlemen, please - Let's not get too busy with non-productive remarks.
>From what I've picked up about each of you, both here and on other lists, my
opinion would have been that the two of you would really "hit it off". And
I don't want to miss out on the suggestions/solutions angle that you may
offer. Maybe you could converse a little off-list to find a common ground
for discussion - could be that there's just a difference in
terms/context/experience levels.
What little I've seen of the posts here lead me to believe that you are both
creative, innovative individuals -- just with a "little" difference in the
extent of your experience. Tvo, for example, has been involved in more
activities in his 70+ years than I think I could handle if I lived to be
200! Tim still has teens and pre-teens living under his roof, but has
managed to creatively adapt aquaponics to include new and different species,
along with his other business experience. Maybe we're just addressing the
wrong subject for concensus. :>)
Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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Subject: Re: help
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 22:43:32 -0500
At 07:19 PM 04/04/2000 -0700, Carnette wrote:
>Dear all:
> Greetings!
> I am new with aquaponics, could you please help how
>should I start with a half hectare of land.
> Thank you.
>
>Carnette Pulma
>Philippines
Perhaps you could provide a few more details about your proposed system -
fish to be raised; will you use tanks for raising fish or ponds? Have you
planned your plant crops as yet?
I believe we have some members on the list from the Philippines who might be
setting up similar operations, but without some additional background, it's
difficult to answer your question.
Actually, it usually produces more responses when a specific question is
asked about a portion of the system, or a planned design that someone may
have experience with.
Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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Subject: Fwd. ccQuotations: Here's Your Daily Quotation
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 22:58:48 -0500
From: "Quotations.cc"
Subject: ccQuotations: Here's Your Daily Quotation
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 10:30:42 -0800
***********************************************************
Those who agree with us may not be right but we admire
their astuteness.
--Cullen Hightower
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Subject: ants
From: "Jay Myers"
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 23:25:29 -0500
Paula -
You have any guidance for ants in the grow beds ? I'm afraid to use any
power or poison due to fish. Maybe flood the bed forcing them up - then
suck them up with wet/dry vacuum - then take it outside & spray ant spray
into it. Better idea ?
Jay
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Subject: Re: Alaska - aquaponics and digesters
From: "beacnhrt"
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 23:50:01 -0500
Pete,
If you want to perue the idea of using biodigestors for producing
methane, you need to direct a post to Raul Martin. He is presently doing
research on them. But according to Raul they produce little methane in
comparison to other gases. I'm sure you could put the solids to good use
though.
The alternative energy consultants should have left some kind of
documentation to let you know how many KW you could produce with wind
generators. You may want to look at what records they left. If they left you
no documentation you may want to ask for your money back. If the left no
information search for wind generation companies and ask one or two for
estimates. They all have wind speed maps that are produced by the U.S.
weather service.
Your expectations concerning the response by tribal members to these
suggestions is exactly why I said that time and effort would be your most
limiting factors. This is a challenge in any community. There are plenty of
sources for the technical and business expertise needed. But you will need
people to volunteer to learn the information. Although Native Americans are
some of the most intelligent people in the world, The tragic events of the
last few hundred years have left them in a world that is quite alien to
them. You can not blame the many tribes that do not want to have any part in
this new age that is accepted so readily by caucasians. With that in mind,
there are many visionary leaders who are willing to accept the criticism and
endure the culture shock involved in bringing their villages or their tribes
into a greater involvement with this modern world. You may be able to
influence some of the leaders to cooperate. But, don't expect them to
embrace this society as a whole.
I would also suggest you seek grants and alternative sources of funding
from foundations, corporations and maybe even wealthy individuals who may
have an interest in alternative energy, Native American causes or the such.
This could be an assignment for an interprising young person who wants to
learn to use the internet.
melvin landers
-----Original Message-----
From: Pete Peschang
To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
Date: Tuesday, April 04, 2000 8:13 PM
Subject: Re: Alaska - aquaponics and digesters
>Melvin,
>Thanks, that was a well thought out and helpful response. We did have
>some alternative energy consultants here last year who concluded that
>wind is viable, although I'm not sure to what extent. Biodigesters also
>look to be viable but can you, or anyone else, provide estimates on the
>cost of generating power via biodigester/methane to compare with the
>current rate we are paying for KW? The power company manager is
>interested in learning more, maybe I might convince him to join in here
>or swap some email addresses to get him some more information. I've
>also not seen any figures on constructing/purchasing or operating
>biogesters. Maybe Mark or Neal will help out with that. I think the
>biggest challenge would be the technical side of the plant growth of
>aquaponics.
>
>I was particularly interested in your assessment that the primary
>obstacles to doing a project like this were time and effort.
>While I totally agree, I had expected to hear that it would be related
>to installation costs, technical expertise, or any number of business
>issues. My objective in emailing so many people in Cordova was to seed
>the idea that there are positive solutions to the fish waste problems
>available. I'm starting to hear from people now that I asked to get
>involved and my hope is that they will catch fire and perhaps make it
>happen. I figure most people will probably dismiss the idea as space
>age or radical or obsurd but some will at least give it some
>consideration. There was a meeting held with the processors today to
>discuss the fish waste problem and some are interested in exploring
>possible solutions. One of our Tribal Council members is interested in
>learning more about these technologies to perhaps present to them. I
>hope some of you will take the time to respond if and when they begin
>asking questions.......pete
>
>
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