Aquaponics Digest - Sun 04/23/00
Message 1: Re: Ca(OH)2
from Crystalcreekaqua
Message 2: Re: Ca(OH)2
from Peggy & Emmett
Message 3: Re: Ca(OH)2
from Raul Vergueiro Martins
Message 4: Re: Ca(OH)2
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 5: Re: Ca(OH)2
from Raul Vergueiro Martins
Message 6: unsubscribe
from HCotten
Message 7: pH adjustment, was Re: Ca(OH)2
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 8: Re: Ca(OH)2
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 9: Re: Ca(OH)2
from "Melvin Landers"
Message 10: Re: Ca(OH)2
from Raul Vergueiro Martins
Message 11: Re: Ca(OH)2
from Raul Vergueiro Martins
Message 12: Iron source...Re: Ca(OH)2
from William Evans
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Subject: Re: Ca(OH)2
From: Crystalcreekaqua
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 05:54:08 EDT
This does bring up an interesting topic. The local HS teacher says that
aquaponic systems only provide nitrogen. I guess this would be true if it
was filtered so that only the ammonia was getting through. I understand that
he alternates with hydroponic solutions so that his plants get what they
need. I've read about systems that use a reduced hydroponic solution in
their tanks in order to boost their plants. I've also heard that aquaponic
systems lack iron and that a few nails in the bottom of the beds would be
enough to get that deficiency covered.
What are the nutrient contents and deficiencies in a pure, unfiltered,
aquaponics system?
I can see where lime would be needed in a system that had problems with
pH outside what the plants need to take up nutrients but in a continuous use
system the bacteria should be keeping the pH fairly constant.
Info?
David
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Subject: Re: Ca(OH)2
From: Peggy & Emmett
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 09:52:59 -0400
I'm going from memory on this but I belive its sold as hydrated lime as
opposed to dolomitic lime. It's packed as a dry powder in packages weighing
3 or 4 pounds. Should be available at Home Depot or maybe up in the cold
north at Reno Depot. .......Emmett
>
>I have not been able to find Ca(OH)2 in a liquid form anywhere here in the
>great white north. I have a feeling it does not come in a liquid form. Is
>there any other common name given to this ?
>
>Marc Laberge
>Mont Tremblant
>Quebec, Canada
>
>
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Subject: Re: Ca(OH)2
From: Raul Vergueiro Martins
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 12:31:59 +0700
> >I have not been able to find Ca(OH)2 in a liquid form anywhere here in the
> >great white north. I have a feeling it does not come in a liquid form. Is
> >there any other common name given to this ?
> >
> >Marc Laberge
> >Mont Tremblant
> >Quebec, Canada
> >
> >
Hello Mark
I'm quite sure that you will not find Calcium Hidroxide in liquid form.
You can get it in powder form, and "dissolve" it in water before use.
But you must remember that Ca(OH)2 is practically insoluble in water.
It dissolves about 0,077 parts in 100 parts of water at 100 centigrade degrees.
So, if you use it to correct pH in a Hydroponic solution, you should prepare a
kind of paste, and add it in very small quantities, and wait wait each quantity
to react, before adding the other parcel.
Even so, you can expect some carbonate precipitation in the solution.
It is a very delicate operation, and I would not recommend it, if you have
other base to do the job, as Potassium Hidroxide (KOH).
In Aquaponics, as a general rule, your water (or hydroponic solution), is very
poor in Calcium (Ca), Potassium (K) and Iron (Fe), and according to the system
you use, and the plants you are cultivating, you must correct (add) these
elements.
During the nitrifiing process, the water becomes acid (pH<7) and this is good
for the majority of plants, but bad for the fishes wich need pH=7 or higher, as
pH 7.2 or pH=7.5.
As we have a deficience in Calcium and Potassium, we can make both corrections
using calcium Hidroxide alternated with Potassium Hidroxide, and bring the
water to a pH=6.8 or pH=7.0.
You must remember too, that the efficience of Nitrifying bacteria is afected by
pH.
In my opinion, you should correct pH with potassim hydroxide, and calcium with
calcium nitrate.
Iron can be corrected with Iron Sulphate, or better, with Iron Chelate.
I don't believe that that putting nails in the botton of tanks can correct Iron
values. May be some iron from the nails form some soluble iron salt, but as
the water is generally neutral or slightly alcaline, ionized iron will form
Iron Hidroxide, then Iron Oxide that precipitates. Better to use an Iron
Chelate.
To carry an Aquaponics system, can be very simple and very difficult, depending
if you carry a domestic or low commercial unit, or a large scale commercial
one.
Even so, Aquaponics it is a big system, and I believe in it. And the most
important thing, is that by means of it, you are producing "Organic
Vegetables", and "Organic" is the word of the moment.
Have a good Eastertide.
Best regards
Raul Vergueiro Martins
rvm@sti.com.br
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Subject: Re: Ca(OH)2
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 12:11:30 -0400
> Iron can be corrected with Iron Sulphate, or better, with Iron Chelate.
> Even so, Aquaponics it is a big system, and I believe in it. And the most
> important thing, is that by means of it, you are producing "Organic
> Vegetables", and "Organic" is the word of the moment.
> Have a good Eastertide.
If I'm not mistaken chelated iron is not an approved organic supplement.
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Subject: Re: Ca(OH)2
From: Raul Vergueiro Martins
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 13:41:53 +0700
Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta wrote:
> > Iron can be corrected with Iron Sulphate, or better, with Iron Chelate.
>
> > Even so, Aquaponics it is a big system, and I believe in it. And the most
> > important thing, is that by means of it, you are producing "Organic
> > Vegetables", and "Organic" is the word of the moment.
> > Have a good Eastertide.
>
> If I'm not mistaken chelated iron is not an approved organic supplement.
Hello Adriana:
I don't know USA rules to aprove organic supplements.
As I know, there is a lot of discussions about that, even in the Hydroponics Mail
List. I don't know if there has been some similar discussion in the Aquaponics
Mail List.
And may be chelated iron has not been approved. I really don't know.
But chelates are prepared with organic compounds, and Ethilene Diamine Tetracetic
Acid (EDTA) is one of them, like, Acetic Acid is another one.
If you biodigest any kind of animal feces in an anaerobic biodigesters, you can
find in the resultant biofertilizer many organo-mineral, and organic compounds,
and among the last ones, EDTA and EDDH are normaly present.
In Inorganic Hydroponics, as you know better than I do, chelates are extensively
used.
Why not use them in Aquaponics?
Do you know any other way to correct Iron deficiency in Aquaponic system? If
you know I would like to know it too.
I think that this is a question of point of view.
About 90% or more of Organic Vegetables I know, are really Organo-Mineral ones.
Good Eastertide
Best regards
Raul Vergueiro Martins
rvm@sti.com.br
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Subject: unsubscribe
From: HCotten
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 19:18:10 EDT
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Subject: pH adjustment, was Re: Ca(OH)2
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 19:30:40 -0500
At 12:10 PM 04/22/2000 -0400, Marc wrote:
>Paula I was wondering if you must adjust the pH and iron levels of your
>system since you do not have any solid removal.
No, Marc, we don't. When we first began we were told that we would need to
bring the pH down to satisfy plant growth (our incoming water pH is 7.3 from
our well). While we spent some time "in committee" trying to reach
concensus as to what to use for this adjustment, the plants were happily
growing and producing.
Between the gravel and breakdown bacterial interaction, we've not found it
necessary to make any adjustments.
Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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Subject: Re: Ca(OH)2
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 20:47:04 -0400
> In Inorganic Hydroponics, as you know better than I do, chelates are extensively
> used.
> Why not use them in Aquaponics?
> Do you know any other way to correct Iron deficiency in Aquaponic system? If
> you know I would like to know it too.
Raul,
This isn't an issue of good or bad, effective or non. In the US, in
most states, in order to sell something as "organic" you have to be
certified. This restricts you to a very specific list of allowable
materials. Check out the guidelines for the California Certified
Organic Farmers at http://www.ccof.org/handbook/Handbook_8.htm#s8d3
Regarding chelates the CCOF site says
"R - Chelates, Regulated. Synthetic chelating agents that are not
allowed, such as EDTA
and HEDTA are regulated; for use only with micronutrient sprays for a
documented deficiency. All other uses of synthetic chelates are
prohibited. "
Adriana
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Subject: Re: Ca(OH)2
From: "Melvin Landers"
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 21:08:20 -0500
Adriana,
I am not really directing this at you, so much as asking some open ended
questions concerning organic standards. I have not bothered with
certification for over fifteen years because of unrealistic standards which
were set, not by growers or researchers, but by consumers who had little
knowlege of the chemical processes and interactions and who had unrealistic
expectations of what farmers could accomplish within their guidelines.
Hopefully that has changed in recent years. But,
I am afraid Rauls question still stands, Is there an efficient method of
correcting an iron deficiency that is approved by the the organic standards
of the majority of states? If not, should those standards be challenged? Now
that the federal government of the United States is getting into the
picture, it would behove U.S. growers to speak out about standards that are
unrealistic and not accomplishing what is best for the consumer. As long as
organic produce is out of reach($$$$) of the average consumer they are at
the mercy of the low standards of the non organic growers. And that is not
in their best interests. Should'nt everyone be able to benifit from the
safety that organic methods bring to food production?
Please allow me to give an abbreviated example which I gave at length to
a standards group about seventeen years ago. If a farmer were allowed to use
composted chicken manure from confinement houses on his fields. The amount
of pesticide present in a harvested tomato would be extremely low after it
has gone through normal aging of the compound, composting, spreading out
throughout the soil, leaching in the field, distribution throughout the
plant, etc. When asked how many of those present had eaten a tomato grown in
Mexico over the last winter, the only one who did not hold up his hand was a
nonorganic grower who was there. When I asked him why he had not he told how
much pesticide you get from one of those tomatoes. By the way, most of those
present did not realize that they had eaten Mexican tomatoes until I asked
them about eating tomatoes in salads at restaurants. I know this is not as
important in the U.S. as it is in other countries, but, this list is a
global one and in those countries especially the standards for organic
production need to be based in reality. Organic production will continue to
be merely a nich market unless realistic standards are set and large scale
farming operations take up the methods of organic production.
melvin landers
-----Original Message-----
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
Date: Sunday, April 23, 2000 7:19 PM
Subject: Re: Ca(OH)2
>
>> In Inorganic Hydroponics, as you know better than I do, chelates are
extensively
>> used.
>> Why not use them in Aquaponics?
>> Do you know any other way to correct Iron deficiency in Aquaponic system?
If
>> you know I would like to know it too.
>
>Raul,
>
>This isn't an issue of good or bad, effective or non. In the US, in
>most states, in order to sell something as "organic" you have to be
>certified. This restricts you to a very specific list of allowable
>materials. Check out the guidelines for the California Certified
>Organic Farmers at http://www.ccof.org/handbook/Handbook_8.htm#s8d3
>
>Regarding chelates the CCOF site says
>"R - Chelates, Regulated. Synthetic chelating agents that are not
>allowed, such as EDTA
>and HEDTA are regulated; for use only with micronutrient sprays for a
>documented deficiency. All other uses of synthetic chelates are
>prohibited. "
>
>Adriana
>
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Subject: Re: Ca(OH)2
From: Raul Vergueiro Martins
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 23:46:48 +0700
Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta wrote:
> > In Inorganic Hydroponics, as you know better than I do, chelates are extensively
> > used.
> > Why not use them in Aquaponics?
> > Do you know any other way to correct Iron deficiency in Aquaponic system? If
> > you know I would like to know it too.
>
> Raul,
>
> This isn't an issue of good or bad, effective or non. In the US, in
> most states, in order to sell something as "organic" you have to be
> certified. This restricts you to a very specific list of allowable
> materials. Check out the guidelines for the California Certified
> Organic Farmers at http://www.ccof.org/handbook/Handbook_8.htm#s8d3
>
> Regarding chelates the CCOF site says
> "R - Chelates, Regulated. Synthetic chelating agents that are not
> allowed, such as EDTA
> and HEDTA are regulated; for use only with micronutrient sprays for a
> documented deficiency. All other uses of synthetic chelates are
> prohibited. "
>
> Adriana
Hello Adriana:
Thanks for the informations.
I'll visit the site ou sent me, to take knowledge of the details involved in organic
greens.
BTW, how can we correct iron deficiences in organic production?
Thanks in advance.
Best regards
Raul Vergueiro Martins
rvm@sti.com.br
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Subject: Re: Ca(OH)2
From: Raul Vergueiro Martins
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 00:28:36 +0700
Melvin Landers wrote:
> Adriana,
> I am not really directing this at you, so much as asking some open ended
> questions concerning organic standards. I have not bothered with
> certification for over fifteen years because of unrealistic standards which
> were set, not by growers or researchers, but by consumers who had little
> knowlege of the chemical processes and interactions and who had unrealistic
> expectations of what farmers could accomplish within their guidelines.
> Hopefully that has changed in recent years. But,
> I am afraid Rauls question still stands, Is there an efficient method of
> correcting an iron deficiency that is approved by the the organic standards
> of the majority of states? If not, should those standards be challenged? Now
> that the federal government of the United States is getting into the
> picture, it would behove U.S. growers to speak out about standards that are
> unrealistic and not accomplishing what is best for the consumer. As long as
> organic produce is out of reach($$$$) of the average consumer they are at
> the mercy of the low standards of the non organic growers. And that is not
> in their best interests. Should'nt everyone be able to benifit from the
> safety that organic methods bring to food production?
> Please allow me to give an abbreviated example which I gave at length to
> a standards group about seventeen years ago. If a farmer were allowed to use
> composted chicken manure from confinement houses on his fields. The amount
> of pesticide present in a harvested tomato would be extremely low after it
> has gone through normal aging of the compound, composting, spreading out
> throughout the soil, leaching in the field, distribution throughout the
> plant, etc. When asked how many of those present had eaten a tomato grown in
> Mexico over the last winter, the only one who did not hold up his hand was a
> nonorganic grower who was there. When I asked him why he had not he told how
> much pesticide you get from one of those tomatoes. By the way, most of those
> present did not realize that they had eaten Mexican tomatoes until I asked
> them about eating tomatoes in salads at restaurants. I know this is not as
> important in the U.S. as it is in other countries, but, this list is a
> global one and in those countries especially the standards for organic
> production need to be based in reality. Organic production will continue to
> be merely a nich market unless realistic standards are set and large scale
> farming operations take up the methods of organic production.
> melvin landers
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
> To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
> Date: Sunday, April 23, 2000 7:19 PM
> Subject: Re: Ca(OH)2
>
> >
> >> In Inorganic Hydroponics, as you know better than I do, chelates are
> extensively
> >> used.
> >> Why not use them in Aquaponics?
> >> Do you know any other way to correct Iron deficiency in Aquaponic system?
> If
> >> you know I would like to know it too.
> >
> >Raul,
> >
> >This isn't an issue of good or bad, effective or non. In the US, in
> >most states, in order to sell something as "organic" you have to be
> >certified. This restricts you to a very specific list of allowable
> >materials. Check out the guidelines for the California Certified
> >Organic Farmers at http://www.ccof.org/handbook/Handbook_8.htm#s8d3
> >
> >Regarding chelates the CCOF site says
> >"R - Chelates, Regulated. Synthetic chelating agents that are not
> >allowed, such as EDTA
> >and HEDTA are regulated; for use only with micronutrient sprays for a
> >documented deficiency. All other uses of synthetic chelates are
> >prohibited. "
> >
> >Adriana
> >
Hello Melvin:
I must agree with you in many points.
But I am in Brazil, and I have no condition to discuss details of Federal or
State Laws of USA.
It seems me, and forgive me if I'm wrong, that details discussed to determine
"what is or is not organic", have been proposed and defined by people not
prepared for that task.
Anyone with a minimum knowledge of plant nutrition, knows those details.
Sometimes it seems that those decisions are more influenced by commercial
interests and not by human interests.
I must exclude here the use of pesticides. These ones should be avoided, and
substituted by natural ones. And we have hundreds of natural pesticides
inocuous for humans ans other animals. It is a question of research.
But for that, we need time and patience.
Unfortunatly, for many farmers it is easier to by a bottle of a pesticide, and
discard it anywere after use, than to prepare a tobacco and pepper tea.
For these people, a tomato is a tomato. It doesn't matter how that tomato was
produced, or even who shall eat it.
I'm an engineer, and in engineering, I say that "true engineering considers in
first place the human beeing and ambient surrounding him, and after, other
elements".
I think that we must apply similar principles in agriculture too.
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Subject: Iron source...Re: Ca(OH)2
From: William Evans
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 20:58:56 -0700
powdered hematite?,,
or....If anybody's game, I have an offer.
Ill send you a sample of lava rock powder
no charge...
...7% Fe
4% Ca
6% Al
1.8% Mg
.18% P
.78% K
24.5% Si
2.2% Na
1.2% Ti..........+ 50 other minors...very fine 22% of the material
passes thru 2500 mesh, 99% passes 100.
W/ agitation its very easy to suspend a pound of SD in a gallon of
water. That would be a good app rate for broadcast overbare soil, prior
to discing in....
If applied at this rate to plants they would suffer due to
"stomata indigestion", and of course a lack of light.
For a foliar application a tablespoon per gallon seems ok, havent really
played around w/ different mixtures. Just sprayed everything.
Anyway at 7% Iron this might be worth a shot. Its just crushed Basalt
lava, with a good mineral balance... and its so finely ground that
application in liquid form is the way to go.
Its not certified ... dont know how that is proceeding.
Idealy, one would want to leave some plants untreated, as a control.
If (after a it works), for ya, kick me back a little sumpin sumpin for
my trouble,
and plesase let us know any results good or bad.
bill evans
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