Aquaponics Digest - Mon 04/24/00
Message 1: Re: Ca(OH)2
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 2: Re: Ca(OH)2
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 3: Re: Iron source...Re: Ca(OH)2
from "Melvin Landers"
Message 4: Re: Ca(OH)2
from "Melvin Landers"
Message 5: Organic Certification
from "Melvin Landers"
Message 6: Re: Ca(OH)2
from Chris Weaver and Theresa Shaw
Message 7: Chelates
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 8: Re: Ca(OH)2
from Raul Vergueiro Martins
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Subject: Re: Ca(OH)2
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 01:20:15 -0400
> BTW, how can we correct iron deficiences in organic production?
I'm not certified organic so I can't tell you. I tend to follow the
organic guidelines when it comes to pesticides which is what I believe
people are more concerned about. In reading the CCOF guidelines it
looks like chelated iron may be OK (in California) after all for
specific identified deficiencies in a crop. Different states and
different certification organizations may differ from CCOF, however.
That is why there is a move under way to creat uniform national organic
certification rules.
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Subject: Re: Ca(OH)2
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 01:34:36 -0400
> I am not really directing this at you, so much as asking some open ended
> questions concerning organic standards. I have not bothered with
> certification for over fifteen years because of unrealistic standards which
> were set, not by growers or researchers, but by consumers who had little
> knowlege of the chemical processes and interactions and who had unrealistic
> expectations of what farmers could accomplish within their guidelines.
Melvin,
I totally agree with you. As it stands today, organic is more of a
marketing issue.
Adriana
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Subject: Re: Iron source...Re: Ca(OH)2
From: "Melvin Landers"
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 01:04:27 -0500
Bill,
Thanks for the information. I never had to concern myself with this as I
have used the some form of the mayan method almost from the beginning of my
growing commercially. Now I am no longer growing and I miss it terribly.
But, I must do other things.
melvin landers
-----Original Message-----
From: William Evans
To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
Date: Sunday, April 23, 2000 10:33 PM
Subject: Iron source...Re: Ca(OH)2
>powdered hematite?,,
>or....If anybody's game, I have an offer.
>Ill send you a sample of lava rock powder
>no charge...
>...7% Fe
>4% Ca
>6% Al
>1.8% Mg
>.18% P
>.78% K
>24.5% Si
>2.2% Na
>1.2% Ti..........+ 50 other minors...very fine 22% of the material
> passes thru 2500 mesh, 99% passes 100.
> W/ agitation its very easy to suspend a pound of SD in a gallon of
>water. That would be a good app rate for broadcast overbare soil, prior
>to discing in....
>If applied at this rate to plants they would suffer due to
>"stomata indigestion", and of course a lack of light.
>For a foliar application a tablespoon per gallon seems ok, havent really
>played around w/ different mixtures. Just sprayed everything.
> Anyway at 7% Iron this might be worth a shot. Its just crushed Basalt
>lava, with a good mineral balance... and its so finely ground that
>application in liquid form is the way to go.
>Its not certified ... dont know how that is proceeding.
>
>Idealy, one would want to leave some plants untreated, as a control.
>
>If (after a it works), for ya, kick me back a little sumpin sumpin for
>my trouble,
>and plesase let us know any results good or bad.
>
>bill evans
>
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| Message 4 |
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Subject: Re: Ca(OH)2
From: "Melvin Landers"
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 01:07:08 -0500
Adriana,
Certified or not, you areright andyou are on the right track. We need to
re-evaluate our priorities.
melvin landers
-----Original Message-----
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
Date: Monday, April 24, 2000 12:06 AM
Subject: Re: Ca(OH)2
>
>> I am not really directing this at you, so much as asking some open
ended
>> questions concerning organic standards. I have not bothered with
>> certification for over fifteen years because of unrealistic standards
which
>> were set, not by growers or researchers, but by consumers who had little
>> knowlege of the chemical processes and interactions and who had
unrealistic
>> expectations of what farmers could accomplish within their guidelines.
>
>Melvin,
>I totally agree with you. As it stands today, organic is more of a
>marketing issue.
>
>Adriana
>
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Subject: Organic Certification
From: "Melvin Landers"
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 01:12:47 -0500
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Raul,
You are correct in your assessment of the situation here in the U.S.
There are many people who assume that since they can afford to pay =
unrealistic prices to cover very expensive cultural techniques, that =
everyone should go along. But, that is not what is best for everyone, =
consumer or farmer.
melvin landers=20
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Raul,
You are correct in your =
assessment=20
of the situation here in the U.S.
There are many people who assume =
that since they=20
can afford to pay unrealistic prices to cover very expensive cultural=20
techniques, that everyone should go along. But, that is not what is best =
for=20
everyone, consumer or farmer.
melvin =
landers
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Subject: Re: Ca(OH)2
From: Chris Weaver and Theresa Shaw
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 07:46:09 -0400
Bonjour Marc:
It can be found at your local farm supply depot. It is sold as hydrated lime
or spray lime. 50 lb bag cost $7.95. Don't buy it from the local hardware
store.
Chris Weaver
Matt Mirabello wrote:
> I am new to this list so i will meakly add my knowledge
> I am pretty sure Ca(OH)2 is formed when lime (CaO) is added to water.
> It may require a little calculations to figure out how much CaO to add to
> the water to get the desired solution ppM.
> >I have not been able to find Ca(OH)2 in a liquid form anywhere here in the
> >great white north. I have a feeling it does not come in a liquid form. Is
> >there any other common name given to this ?
> Hope this helps
> Matt
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Subject: Chelates
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 09:08:50 -0500
>Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 08:45:53 -0500
>From: Gordon Watkins
>To: Paula Spereneo
>Subject: Chelates
>There are chelated minerals that are acceptable to some certifying
>agencies, specifically those which are chelated with lignosulfates
>rather than EDTA. Peaceful Valley Farm Supply (www.groworganic.com) has
>a selection manufactured by Fertall. I have used their iron chelate on
>citrus trees in my aquaponic system with good success. Some kelp
>products also have iron levels of around 800ppm and can be safely used
>in aquaponics (in my experience).
>
>Gordon Watkins
>
>
>Subject:
> Re: Ca(OH)2
> Date:
> Sun, 23 Apr 2000 21:08:20 -0500
> From:
> "Melvin Landers"
>Adriana,
> I am not really directing this at you, so much as asking some open
>ended
>questions concerning organic standards. I have not bothered with
>certification for over fifteen years because of unrealistic standards
>which
>were set, not by growers or researchers, but by consumers who had little
>
>knowlege of the chemical processes and interactions and who had
>unrealistic
>expectations of what farmers could accomplish within their guidelines.
>Hopefully that has changed in recent years. But,
> I am afraid Rauls question still stands, Is there an efficient method
>of
>correcting an iron deficiency that is approved by the the organic
>standards
>of the majority of states? If not, should those standards be challenged?
>Now
>that the federal government of the United States is getting into the
>picture, it would behove U.S. growers to speak out about standards that
>are
>unrealistic and not accomplishing what is best for the consumer. As long
>as
>organic produce is out of reach($$$$) of the average consumer they are
>at
>the mercy of the low standards of the non organic growers. And that is
>not
>in their best interests. Should'nt everyone be able to benifit from the
>safety that organic methods bring to food production?
> Please allow me to give an abbreviated example which I gave at
>length to
>a standards group about seventeen years ago. If a farmer were allowed to
>use
>composted chicken manure from confinement houses on his fields. The
>amount
>of pesticide present in a harvested tomato would be extremely low after
>it
>has gone through normal aging of the compound, composting, spreading
>out
>throughout the soil, leaching in the field, distribution throughout the
>plant, etc. When asked how many of those present had eaten a tomato
>grown in
>Mexico over the last winter, the only one who did not hold up his hand
>was a
>nonorganic grower who was there. When I asked him why he had not he told
>how
>much pesticide you get from one of those tomatoes. By the way, most of
>those
>present did not realize that they had eaten Mexican tomatoes until I
>asked
>them about eating tomatoes in salads at restaurants. I know this is not
>as
>important in the U.S. as it is in other countries, but, this list is a
>global one and in those countries especially the standards for organic
>production need to be based in reality. Organic production will continue
>to
>be merely a nich market unless realistic standards are set and large
>scale
>farming operations take up the methods of organic production.
>melvin landers
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
>To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
>Date: Sunday, April 23, 2000 7:19 PM
>Subject: Re: Ca(OH)2
>
>
>>
>>> In Inorganic Hydroponics, as you know better than I do, chelates are
>extensively
>>> used.
>>> Why not use them in Aquaponics?
>>> Do you know any other way to correct Iron deficiency in Aquaponic
>system?
>If
>>> you know I would like to know it too.
>>
>>Raul,
>>
>>This isn't an issue of good or bad, effective or non. In the US, in
>>most states, in order to sell something as "organic" you have to be
>>certified. This restricts you to a very specific list of allowable
>>materials. Check out the guidelines for the California Certified
>>Organic Farmers at http://www.ccof.org/handbook/Handbook_8.htm#s8d3
>>
>>Regarding chelates the CCOF site says
>>"R - Chelates, Regulated. Synthetic chelating agents that are not
>>allowed, such as EDTA
>>and HEDTA are regulated; for use only with micronutrient sprays for a
>>documented deficiency. All other uses of synthetic chelates are
>>prohibited. "
>>
>>Adriana
>>
>
>
>
>
S&S Aqua Farm, http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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| Message 8 |
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Subject: Re: Ca(OH)2
From: Raul Vergueiro Martins
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:11:51 +0700
Hello Adriana:
Thanks for your considerations about Iron chelates.
I feel well when you say that at least you try to avoid "chemical"
pesticides.
That's a good start.
Best regards
Raul Vergueiro Martins
rvm@sti.com.br
Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta wrote:
> > BTW, how can we correct iron deficiences in organic production?
>
> I'm not certified organic so I can't tell you. I tend to follow the
> organic guidelines when it comes to pesticides which is what I believe
> people are more concerned about. In reading the CCOF guidelines it
> looks like chelated iron may be OK (in California) after all for
> specific identified deficiencies in a crop. Different states and
> different certification organizations may differ from CCOF, however.
> That is why there is a move under way to creat uniform national organic
> certification rules.
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