Aquaponics Digest - Sun 05/21/00
Message 1: Re : pH control / swamp vs lake
from laberge@cil.qc.ca (LABERGE MARC)
Message 2: RE: Re : pH control / swamp vs lake
from "Angela O."
Message 3: Re: Re : pH control / swamp vs lake
from "Barry Thomas"
Message 4: Re: Re : pH control / swamp vs lake
from "Barry Thomas"
Message 5: Re: Re : pH control / swamp vs lake
from "Angela O."
Message 6: Re: Re : pH control / swamp vs lake
from "Angela O."
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Subject: Re : pH control / swamp vs lake
From: laberge@cil.qc.ca (LABERGE MARC)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 13:05:33 -0400
<>
What you are describing sounds like a lake which is in equilibrium. What I
am talking about is ponds which in most cases are well above the equilibrium
stocking rate and things tend to get a little out of wack when you exceed
the natural capacity of the environment. In most cases people do add feed to
feed these fish , so again the environment gets out of wack.
<>
John I have been asking everywhere about the barley straw , internet recirc
lists , aqua list letter to the editor of Recirc Today... no response about
the straw with trout. I know that it is used for catfish and other hardy
fish but I don't know of anyone who has ever used it in trout ponds. Farmers
with over 15 years experience up here have never heard about the straw
neither people from the government. I have set up a few bags in the main
pond using ~10 g per meter square and will see if any changes occurs.
The original question I believe was about tampering with one's pH of a pond
. As I understand it barley straw does not affect the pH of a pond directly
; very very indirectly I could maybe see with the small amount of acid
released by the decomposition of the straw which kills algae cells but not
plants , but directly I can't. Could you explain more about the direct
relationship ?
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Subject: RE: Re : pH control / swamp vs lake
From: "Angela O."
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 14:56:42 -0700
Hi all,
Well I am not sure who I am replying to at this point so please bare with me.
I believe the "origional pond" in this discussion was man made pond with no natural water
input other than rain directly into the pond and run off from the perimeter of the pond, and
that the pond was under a drought condition having lost I believe 5' of water level.
The alk. levels of the pond were excessive ph9.0+ I believe., and probably an associated high
level of hardness in addition to which high nitrates probably associated with animal wastes
(fish poop :o))
AND resultant bacterial wastes as the fish wastes decompose.
For many reasons this is a pond NOT in equalibrium.
1. The drough causes evaporation to exceed water input, concentrating TDS (total disolved
solids)
2. Evaporation out pacing new water input lowers pond level, resulting in "loss OF ACTIVE POND
BOTTOM surface area"
3. Pond bottom inhabitants are what "normally" buffer nitrate levels
4. Loss of pond bottom also reduces amount of FOOD avalible to fish in the pond. If
suplimental feeding is the norm for this pond nitrate levels will go up. And so will just
about every other level.
5. All of the symptoms above are indicators that the "Pond" is attemting to achieve a new and
Different Equallibrium level. Unfortunately this new Natural equalibrium level if allowed to
occur WILL NOT include most of the fish.
6. Combining acid with a base will yield a salt. These salts will remain in the system
indefinately until utilized by something else within the system or they are flushed from the
system by partial and perodic water exchange. There presence may be (probably is) toxic to
Some flora/fauna inhabitants of the pond bottom.
7. Adding items to decompose such as straw and decomposition as a whole do not simply HAPPEN
because the straw is WET. Decomposition is the result of for the most part microbial action.
I.E. living bacteria Eating the straw.
8. Living microbes for the most part require oxygen. There are slower acting anerobic bacteria
but there usefullness to us in this
situation is questionible, as they require a very low oxygen enviroment. Somthing that will
kill the fish much quicker than nitrate posining!
9. The straw added to the pond does supliment the pond bottom. "It gives more place for the
tiny critters to live"
********************************************
In my opinion the "FIX" for this pond begins with a few items that would be undesirible:
1. Add water to bring water level back up so that it can sustain the population and recover and
repopulate its bottom. As indicated in first letter this is probably cost prohibitive.
2. Remove the fish. Probably not desirible, although nature is attempting to do this very
thing inorder to achieve equalibrium.
3. Exchange/flush water without attempting to bring it back to a Full pond level. Perhaps
practical but at best will be an ONGOING measure as the processes which are making the water
toxic will still be in effect.
4. And now MY personel favorite "ADD oxygen"! Oxygen is what will allow the decomposition of
the added staw which will release the acid which will..... etc
Adding oxygen will allow bigger populations of bacteria to multiply and thrive. These
bacteria will utilize the chemical components in the water to build their body parts. Bacteria
grow faster than plants,some types dividing on a 20 minute schedule under optimum conditions,
thus they need more energy (food) and consume more oxygen, and other chemicals as they grow.
Some of the bacteria will use the ammonia and other nitrates in the water and excrete more
usible forms of nitrogen that can be absorbed by the plants in the pond bottom. This is
exactly the process we are using when we construct a biofilter in recirculation systems.
5. I realize for most of you I have been restating many basic and obivious things. Sorry if I
may have used some incorect chemical terms etc. Been a long time since i was in chemistry
class, but I think the information is basicly correct.
6. I raise catfish in approx. 18 acres of ponds, and also have 600 acres of farm land which is
in a soybean, rice, crayfish rotation.
7. The one thing I have learned that I am attempting to impart here is, If you are going to
raise fish you will have to decide which end of all chemical equasions you will work from.
"Here is the Current chemicl make up of my water and soil, what do I need to add to it to
change it"
OR
You can use the "Louisian Cook Book recipe method"
Louisiana cook book method : Every recipie in Louisiana cooking
begins with "First you take a LARGE ONION and THEN you ...... "
:o)
In this case, (raising fish) regardless of what your symptoms are,
FIRST you add more oxygen and THEN ............. wait a bit and see How much of your problem
that fixes ........
While it is theoreticly "Possible" to add too much oxygen to the water in labatory conditions
that fish would suffer toxic effects from this, It isn't going to happen in an open pond. The
fish are NOT the only animals in the open ponds enviroment.
R.
>From: laberge@cil.qc.ca (LABERGE MARC)
>To: "aqua"
>Subject: Re : pH control / swamp vs lake
>Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 13:05:33 -0400
>Reply-To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
>
>
><indefinitely? Is the critical factor the
>stocking rate? At some low stocking rate, the
>frogs, water weeds, fish, algae, protozoa, and
>ducks seems to settle into a sustainable pattern?
>
>Carolyn>>
>
>What you are describing sounds like a lake which is in equilibrium. What I
>am talking about is ponds which in most cases are well above the equilibrium
>stocking rate and things tend to get a little out of wack when you exceed
>the natural capacity of the environment. In most cases people do add feed to
>feed these fish , so again the environment gets out of wack.
>
><course.
>The barley straw is mostly carbon and it will brake down and form humeric
>acid
>or humic acid. Or you are in Canada so you could use spragnam peat moss.
>John Hays>>
>
>John I have been asking everywhere about the barley straw , internet recirc
>lists , aqua list letter to the editor of Recirc Today... no response about
>the straw with trout. I know that it is used for catfish and other hardy
>fish but I don't know of anyone who has ever used it in trout ponds. Farmers
>with over 15 years experience up here have never heard about the straw
>neither people from the government. I have set up a few bags in the main
>pond using ~10 g per meter square and will see if any changes occurs.
>The original question I believe was about tampering with one's pH of a pond
>. As I understand it barley straw does not affect the pH of a pond directly
>; very very indirectly I could maybe see with the small amount of acid
>released by the decomposition of the straw which kills algae cells but not
>plants , but directly I can't. Could you explain more about the direct
>relationship ?
Hugss,
Angela
P.S. This is my web page ... give it a look, if ya like you can compare all surf programs
there ... you can get one just like it already built if ya want for FREE !
http://www.maxref.com/mrp/top.cgi/earn/MX659763?top=cp
------------------------------------------------------------
You to can have an email account at http://www.bigmailbox.net
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| Message 3 |
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Subject: Re: Re : pH control / swamp vs lake
From: "Barry Thomas"
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 00:47:21 +0100
Hi Angela,
> Well I am not sure who I am replying to at this point
> so please bare with me.
It wasn't me but thanks for the great post anyway. One question though:
> Adding oxygen will allow bigger populations of bacteria to
> multiply and thrive. These bacteria will utilize the chemical
> components in the water to build their body parts. Bacteria
> grow faster than plants,some types dividing on a 20 minute
> schedule under optimum conditions, thus they need more
> energy (food) and consume more oxygen, and other chemicals
> as they grow. Some of the bacteria will use the ammonia
> and other nitrates in the water and excrete more usible forms
> of nitrogen that can be absorbed by the plants in the pond
> bottom.
While I'm not in any way disagreeing with you, I still see no real exit
for the excess materials in the water. There will of course be a
decrease as the bacterial populations increase but this can only go so
far without a _lot_ of plants to fix nutrients so they can be removed
when harvesting?
So, in _addition_ to more O2, sludge (mainly the large amounts of algae
which seem likely to be the first to capitalise on the increased
plant-type nutrients) removal from the pond and an external growbed or
two might be needed?
Apologies, turned out to be more than one question - mission creep. :)
Barry
barrythomas@btinternet.com
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Subject: Re: Re : pH control / swamp vs lake
From: "Barry Thomas"
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 04:32:29 +0100
Sorry, however short I keep the posts to this list, I always seem able
to say at least one stupid thing. External growbeds would remove more
water than nutrients so probably wouldn't help much.
Sludge removal still seems desirable though?
----- Original Message -----
> So, in _addition_ to more O2, sludge (mainly the large amounts of
algae
> which seem likely to be the first to capitalise on the increased
> plant-type nutrients) removal from the pond and an external growbed or
> two might be needed?
Barry
barrythomas@btinternet.com
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Subject: Re: Re : pH control / swamp vs lake
From: "Angela O."
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 20:15:02 -0700
becomes becomes
Beaver Pond ----------> Beaver Bog -----------> Beaver Meadow
Yep I agree with you about 200% sorry I left things in my last post without tieing things
together with the final jump.
The algae will be the first to increase in the plant world which by the way will produce
additional oxygen while they live, but eventually will die and decompose etc ..... producing
both a BOD due to the decomposers (bacteria) and a COD due to the combinations of their cell
chemistry make up as they are decomposed into other compounds, most of which will be fairly
inert. (i.e. calcium carbonate) etc and percipitate out to settle to the bottom.
Ok so I will share a bit of our operation concerning the catfish ponds.
Along about rice planting time on the farm we have timed the catfish harvesting operation
to have been completed. Next step is to
"PUMP" the bottoms of the ponds. To do this we use a rather simple system of a portible 3"
diesel pump floated on a raft made of a platform suspended over 2 50gal barrels. The suction
hose for the pump is connected to a "rake" made from pipe sections in a "T" fashond. A few
steel teeth on the rake stir up the bottom a bit as it is dragged along. The raft is tethered
by ropes at all 4 corners to various points on the pond bank allowing us to pull the raft to
various areas of the pond etc....
The output hose of the pump is piped to our underground irrigation system and is actualy
pumping things "uphill" so to speak. We open the alfala valve at the top end of the field we
wish to flood. Voila we now have a 40 acre "grow bed" as you asked about in your post. The
fishing operation supplies about 25 lbs of nitrogen/ac of rice field annually. In addition
we will have just REMOVED/Exchanged about 20 % of the water in the pond. More importantly this
20% will actualy contain about 40%by weight of the sludge build up.
An interesting side issue about the straw mentioned in previous posts: After we have pumped
pond bottoms the water is very cloudy because of the raking of the bottoms stirring up not only
alge sediment but the clay soil bottom. Clays suspended in water tend to stay that way. Staw
has long been used to clarify pond waters. We scatter several bales of hay across the pond
surface and "let nature take its course" after about a week most of the hay no is longer
floating and water is noticeibly clearer. The State Agricultural Dept. "Agronomist"
explained it to me once. Errrrrr (lots of big college words) It seems the parts I remember
have something to do with ionization of the humeric acid imparting a negative(positive ?)
charge on the surface of the straw, which attracts coliodials and causes them to "flock" and
attach to the straw surface sharing a partial electro-covalent bond.
I think that "means" clay realy sticks well to wet straw.
:o)
For the person with the pond in distress it might not be a bad idea to rent a portible jagger
pump and do a little bottom pumping every few years or so. Setting the discharge hose to flow
over piles of leaves or compost is a good idea.
R.
>From: "Barry Thomas"
>To:
>Subject: Re: Re : pH control / swamp vs lake
>Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 00:47:21 +0100
>Reply-To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
>
>Hi Angela,
>
>> Well I am not sure who I am replying to at this point
>> so please bare with me.
>
>It wasn't me but thanks for the great post anyway. One question though:
>
>
>> Adding oxygen will allow bigger populations of bacteria to
>> multiply and thrive. These bacteria will utilize the chemical
>> components in the water to build their body parts. Bacteria
>> grow faster than plants,some types dividing on a 20 minute
>> schedule under optimum conditions, thus they need more
>> energy (food) and consume more oxygen, and other chemicals
>> as they grow. Some of the bacteria will use the ammonia
>> and other nitrates in the water and excrete more usible forms
>> of nitrogen that can be absorbed by the plants in the pond
>> bottom.
>
>
>While I'm not in any way disagreeing with you, I still see no real exit
>for the excess materials in the water. There will of course be a
>decrease as the bacterial populations increase but this can only go so
>far without a _lot_ of plants to fix nutrients so they can be removed
>when harvesting?
>
>So, in _addition_ to more O2, sludge (mainly the large amounts of algae
>which seem likely to be the first to capitalise on the increased
>plant-type nutrients) removal from the pond and an external growbed or
>two might be needed?
>
>Apologies, turned out to be more than one question - mission creep. :)
>
>Barry
>barrythomas@btinternet.com
Hugss,
Angela
P.S. This is my web page ... give it a look, if ya like you can compare all surf programs
there ... you can get one just like it already built if ya want for FREE !
http://www.maxref.com/mrp/top.cgi/earn/MX659763?top=cp
------------------------------------------------------------
You to can have an email account at http://www.bigmailbox.net
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| Message 6 |
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Subject: Re: Re : pH control / swamp vs lake
From: "Angela O."
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 20:20:49 -0700
Sorry i wwas writtign My reply post when this post came through.
How about the floating lettuce idea that was being discussed a couple days ago !
>From: "Barry Thomas"
>To:
>Subject: Re: Re : pH control / swamp vs lake
>Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 04:32:29 +0100
>Reply-To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
>
>Sorry, however short I keep the posts to this list, I always seem able
>to say at least one stupid thing. External growbeds would remove more
>water than nutrients so probably wouldn't help much.
>
>Sludge removal still seems desirable though?
>
>----- Original Message -----
>
>> So, in _addition_ to more O2, sludge (mainly the large amounts of
>algae
>> which seem likely to be the first to capitalise on the increased
>> plant-type nutrients) removal from the pond and an external growbed or
>> two might be needed?
>
>Barry
>barrythomas@btinternet.com
Hugss,
Angela
P.S. This is my web page ... give it a look, if ya like you can compare all surf programs
there ... you can get one just like it already built if ya want for FREE !
http://www.maxref.com/mrp/top.cgi/earn/MX659763?top=cp
------------------------------------------------------------
You to can have an email account at http://www.bigmailbox.net
|
