Aquaponics Digest - Mon 02/02/98
Message 1: Re: response to animal-waste aquaculture
from "H.Doelle"
Message 2: Re: response to animal-waste aquaculture
from "H.Doelle"
Message 3: Re: response to animal-waste aquaculture
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 4: Archive file - Animal Manure as Fish Food and Fish Meal as
Feed ingredient
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 5: Re: response to animal-waste aquaculture
from Gordon Watkins
Message 6: unsubscribe
from Luis Alberto Ambrosio
Message 7: Introductions
from S & S Aqua Farm
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| Message 1 |
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Subject: Re: response to animal-waste aquaculture
From: "H.Doelle"
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 21:07:00 +1100
Sir,
I am well aware of this long standing practice. However, until 50 years ago,
we did not feed our animals with antibiotics, hormones etc. We also have
much more resistant bacterial pathogens today than 50 years ago.
If you have read all the replies, you will have recognised two replies in
which people indicated that infection has occurred.
In Asia, people increasingly recognise the danger and are taking care now by
anaerobically digesting first before using the excreta.
We are not only progressing in technology, but also in all other areas of
our life and have to adjust to these new conditions.
I mentioned also the enormous problems I encountered in the Philippines in
regard to pickling of cucumber from fields fertilised by raw animal excreta.
The warnings have been posted and we should not overlook the importance and
danger, when it can be avouided so easily, making even more money with the
additional biogas as a throw in !!
I would really appreciate it if people who reply would sign with their names
or do they have to hide them ?
Best regards and wishes
Horst Doelle
At 10:34 PM 01/02/98 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>Finally I like to caution all those aquaculture people, who are using
>animal manure for fish feeding to stop that terrible practice immediately,
>as they only recycle pathogens and increase the prospects of very unhealthy
>epidemics, particularly in the light of the ever increasing antibiotic
>resistancy.
>
>RESPONSE************************************************************
>Sir, this practice has existed for more than 2,000 years in Asia and is
>widely practiced in tropical developing countries. The best combinations
>involve pig, chicken or duck manure with tilapia and/or several carp
>species. The animal facilities are often located adjacent to ponds.
>Thousands of research papers have been written in promotion of this practice
>at some of the best agricultural universities in the world. Fish are
>generally healthy in well managed manure-loaded systems and do not become
>infected by Salmonella and other intestinal bacteria and viruses of
>warm-blooded animals. There is the possibility that these pathogens may be
>carried passively in fish intestines, but the high pH and dissloved oxygen
>levels in waste-fed ponds rapidly attenuate bacteria and viruses introduced
>with the manure. Cleaning and cooking the fish well would eliminate any
>remaining microorganisms. It is often more hygienic to dispose of animal
>waste in water than on land where flies can spread diseases very effectively
>in crowded underdeveloped communities. Manure aquaculture would never be
>accepted in developed countries. Paradoxically, organic foods are regarded
>highly in developed countries. Aren't these often manure-based systems? And
>what about aquaponics? By condemning the integration of aquaculture with
>animal waste, you are condemning millions of people in the developing world
>to malnutrition and starvation.
>********************************************************************
>
>>That is all folks and I hope to learn from you, since learning never stops !
>>Looking forward to our exchange of knowledge
>Horst W.Doelle,D.Sc.
>Director, MIRCEN-Biotechnology Brisbane
>Chairman, IOBB
>Hon.Member of Depts. Microbiology & Chemical Engineering
>FAX: +617-38783230
>
>
>
Horst W.Doelle,D.Sc.
Director, MIRCEN-Biotechnology Brisbane
Chairman, IOBB
Hon.Member of Depts. Microbiology & Chemical Engineering
FAX: +617-38783230
Email: H.Doelle@mailbox.uq.edu.au
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| Message 2 |
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Subject: Re: response to animal-waste aquaculture
From: "H.Doelle"
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 21:10:04 +1100
Rob,
I can't agree more with you and you will find my answer in another message.
The developing countries have the same right than we have to produce safe
and healthy food.
>From Down-Under
Horst Doelle
At 10:47 PM 01/02/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Perhaps these practices are the reason why some of the world's worst
>epidemics originate in the far east. Manure use is too intensive nowadays
>and the quality of the manure is now contaminated with hormones, heavy
>metals and pathogens.
>Yes, these practices are necessary where population densities require the
>use of intensive methods; however, it does not mean the food is healthy in
>the whole sense of the word. By the way, by dumping animal waste into water
>gives rise to some fantastic algal blooms otherwise known as red tide.
>My defintion of aquaponics is the integration of hydroponics and
>aquaculture.
>Rob
>Just a Guy in Canada
>----------
>> From: James Rakocy, Ph.D. <
>> To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
>> Subject: response to animal-waste aquaculture
>> Date: Sunday, February 01, 1998 9:34 PM
>>
>>
>> >Finally I like to caution all those aquaculture people, who are using
>> animal manure for fish feeding to stop that terrible practice
>immediately,
>> as they only recycle pathogens and increase the prospects of very
>unhealthy
>> epidemics, particularly in the light of the ever increasing antibiotic
>> resistancy.
>>
>> RESPONSE************************************************************
>> Sir, this practice has existed for more than 2,000 years in Asia and is
>> widely practiced in tropical developing countries. The best combinations
>> involve pig, chicken or duck manure with tilapia and/or several carp
>> species. The animal facilities are often located adjacent to ponds.
>> Thousands of research papers have been written in promotion of this
>practice
>> at some of the best agricultural universities in the world. Fish are
>> generally healthy in well managed manure-loaded systems and do not become
>> infected by Salmonella and other intestinal bacteria and viruses of
>> warm-blooded animals. There is the possibility that these pathogens may
>be
>> carried passively in fish intestines, but the high pH and dissloved
>oxygen
>> levels in waste-fed ponds rapidly attenuate bacteria and viruses
>introduced
>> with the manure. Cleaning and cooking the fish well would eliminate any
>> remaining microorganisms. It is often more hygienic to dispose of animal
>> waste in water than on land where flies can spread diseases very
>effectively
>> in crowded underdeveloped communities. Manure aquaculture would never be
>> accepted in developed countries. Paradoxically, organic foods are
>regarded
>> highly in developed countries. Aren't these often manure-based systems?
>And
>> what about aquaponics? By condemning the integration of aquaculture with
>> animal waste, you are condemning millions of people in the developing
>world
>> to malnutrition and starvation.
>> ********************************************************************
>>
>> >That is all folks and I hope to learn from you, since learning never
>stops !
>> >Looking forward to our exchange of knowledge
>> Horst W.Doelle,D.Sc.
>> Director, MIRCEN-Biotechnology Brisbane
>> Chairman, IOBB
>> Hon.Member of Depts. Microbiology & Chemical Engineering
>> FAX: +617-38783230
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Horst W.Doelle,D.Sc.
Director, MIRCEN-Biotechnology Brisbane
Chairman, IOBB
Hon.Member of Depts. Microbiology & Chemical Engineering
FAX: +617-38783230
Email: H.Doelle@mailbox.uq.edu.au
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| Message 3 |
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Subject: Re: response to animal-waste aquaculture
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 07:04:55 -0600
At 09:07 PM 2/2/98 +1100, you wrote:
>Sir,
>I am well aware of this long standing practice. However, until 50 years
ago, we did not feed our animals with antibiotics, hormones etc. We also
have much more resistant bacterial pathogens today than 50 years ago.
>If you have read all the replies, you will have recognised two replies in
which people indicated that infection has occurred.
>Horst W.Doelle,D.Sc.
>Director, MIRCEN-Biotechnology Brisbane
Dr. Doelle - I believe that Dr. Rakocy was responding to remarks contained
in your original introduction to the list which was just reposted a few days
ago. He has not had an opportunity to review the other replies at the time
of the original discussion, because he was not on the list at that time, and
because I have yet to post the archive files onto a web site for review. My
apologies.
Later this morning I will review the original thread on this topic and post
a consolidated version. This will give all participants the opportunity to
comment on an equal basis. Also, although his name was not included as a
signature, James Rokocy, Ph.D. was shown as the sender on his original post.
Paula Speraneo
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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| Message 4 |
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Subject: Archive file - Animal Manure as Fish Food and Fish Meal as
Feed ingredient
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 08:41:03 -0600
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 18:09:55 -0600
Dr. Doelle - we've heard that this practice continues even after the horror
stories of recent years. We've heard that using raw manure (chicken, hog,
etc.) continues in aquaculture, but have no confirmation. Could you explain
the hazards of such practices?
Also, since many commercial fish feeds are based on protein from "fish
meal", does this component fit into the "hazardous practices" structure?
Paula Speraneo
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 18:22:37 -0600
Horst's intro caught my attention, too and I ditto Paula's concerns over
feeding fish byproducts. I've seen several references to Mad Fish
Disease occurring in tilapia (bacterial rather than viral as in BSE but
alarming nevertheless) and I too worry about fishmeal.
But what about worms fed on algae mats growing in the surface of our
beds? I've thought about using the algae mats to feed a vermicomposting
system to produce red wigglers for tilapia feed. Could viruses or other
diseases be transmitted through the fish manure? Talk about a short gut,
worms have it, so I doubt there would be much disinfection occuring
there. Is this something to worry about?
I would also like to hear more about Horst's work with mychorizzae.
Have you done work with them in aquaponic sytems, Horst? I really think
the heart of our integrated systems resides in the bed horizon and much
can be done to bettter understand the dynamics there.
Gordon
------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 13:27:31 +1100
As a microbiologist I am concerned with the notorious Salmonella in chicken,
which undoubtedly is in the manure. What do we know about mad cow disease
and its possibility to appear in manure ? Humans have all sort of diseases.
In general, every food disease in meat can also be transmitted via manure,
since the pathogens are excreted. The problem is, of course, that nobody
analyses the microbial population as we do with water quality control.
Of course, I hear always from aquaculturists, nobody has reported diseases
via fish. Well, I am not sure whether that can be a justification for using
the manure.
We have a better knowledge when fresh manure is used to fertilise fields.
When I was last in the Philippines a company which pickles cucumber asked me
about their problems of having to use up to 15% NaCl to keep contamination
down. Of course, I was easily able to trace the problem to the so-called
'organic fertilisation' using fresh manure as the contaminants were all well
known pathogens, such as E.coli and other coliforms etc etc. Here the
cucumbers are on the ground, which receives fresh manure and if the cucumber
is not well scrubbed and cleaned, well - no further comments.
Organic fertilisation was meant 'compost'usage. During composting, of
course, the pathogens are also killed as through the anaerobic digester.
However, now people translate 'organic fertilisation with manure usage !!
Dangerous indeed.
Furthermore, we all know that fish does not keep fresh very long. WHY ? It
is decomposed by microorganisms. Normally the microbial flora is mainly
Bacillus which exudates an enzyme degrading protein, but it is not regarded
as a pathogen to such extent. But why risking a greater bacterial population ?
>Also, since many commercial fish feeds are based on protein from "fish
>meal", does this component fit into the "hazardous practices" structure?
No I do not believe so. Fish meal is processed and has a number of 'heat'
steps. I am not aware of any problems with fish meal. In Thailand, fish meal
is used very extensively, as example.
I hope I have answered your questions and also given you a reason, why the
use of manure may have been introduced.
My strong advise always will be, compost or digest manure first and then use
it as algae or fish feed. We know that the effluent from an anaerobic
digester is safe for fish feeding. Why using manure, if you could get first
energy on top of the excellent feed. Waste of money in my books.
ALL systems recommended by UNU and Unesco are via digesters for human health
and economics.
Best regards
Horst Doelle
--------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 05:02:40 -0500
One of my closest friends has just been diagnosed with histoplasmosis- a
fungal infection that attacks the lungs and the eyes. Unchecked, the
pathogen will cause blindness and even death in not-so-rare cases. X-rays
show the lungs with scars that resemble tuberculosis and is in fact
confused as being tuberculosis leading to misdiagnosis and incorrect
medication.
HISTOPLASMOSIS "SPORES" OCCUR NATURALLY IN BAT GUANO< PIGEON GUANO< CHICKEN
MANURE AND OTHER ANIMAL WASTE. I urge growers, especially those
experimenting with bat guano in the pursuit of organic hydroponic
nutrients, to refrain from using animal manure in solutions...the risks are
very real and very high. Encephalitis and hepatitis are also SUSPECT in
these preparations.
On a lighter note, I've been told that Tilapia LOVE sweet potato vine as a
food source. Rob Harrop
--------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 21:45:37 +1100
Dear Paula,
Thank you very much for your message. I just spent my yearly 3 month
teaching in the south of Thailand, where most fish processing plants and
prawn farms are.
We also just completed an article on what to do with the enormous fish
processing waste as well as other wastes. As far as I understand, fish meal
is produced from all the solid waste. The best suggestion I have is to ask
the university department I am working with for addresses etc. They know the
details.
The persons you can contact are: Dr.Poonsuk Prasertsan, Head of Department
of Industrial Biotechnology, Faculty of Agro-Industry, Prince of Songkla
University, HAT YAI 90110, Thailand. Email address:
OR Dr. Aran H.-kittikun
You can easily refer to me as having given you their address.
Both are working with these companies and should be able to give you the
information. Thai names and addresses are in general diffivult to remember.
Good Luck and let me know if you have any problems, which sometimes occur
with these countries.
Best regards
Horst Doelle
At 07:37 PM 03/12/97 -0600, you wrote:
>
>>Horst W.Doelle,D.Sc.
>>Director, MIRCEN-Biotechnology Brisbane
>>Chairman, IOBB
>>Hon.Member of Depts. Microbiology & Chemical Engineering
>>FAX: +617-38783230
>>Email: H.Doelle@mailbox.uq.edu.au
>
>Dr. Doelle - thank you so much for your thoughtful and detailed reply on
>"Animal Manure as Fish Food". Documentation from a microbiologist certainly
>lends credibility to what most of us already believe.
>
>Do you have any details on the "fish meal" used in Thailand? Is this a base
>ingredient for fish foods? Who makes it, and how? If you don't have the
>information readily available, could you refer us to a resource?
>
>Thanks
>
>Paula Speraneo
------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 08:37:20 +1100
Dear Rob,
Thanks for the message below. I had not heard such an implication as yet,
but it certainly demonstrates the increasing danger of some practices.
I actually learned two days ago, that we had in Australia two tragic deaths
of people using 'potting mixtures' in their gardening activities. Elderly
people. They found Leggionella in the potting mix and now a health warning
is out all over our country to 'use gloves when working with any potting
mixtures OR compost mixtures' and thoroughly clean hands etc. after use.
In my teaching I always emphasize: MICROORGANISMS ARE THE MOST POWERFUL
CREATURES ON THIS PLANET. THEY CAN KILL MERCILESS BUT CAN ALSO DO A
MAGNIFICENT JOB. Sounds familiar ? It is true !
I most sincerely hope and wish that your friend will recover as difficult as
it may be.
Best regrads and many thanks
Horst Doelle
----------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 10:20:53 +0000
As a newcomer to this list, I appreciate the work you are doing. I would
like to get the old posts, is there an archive to this list?
I am especially interested in the feeding of animal wastes to the fish. I
raise rheas, South American ostriches, which have very particular
requirements including zero environmental toxin exposure for the first
three months. I would be using the fish as an unadulterated protein source
for the babies and the vegetables for personal consumption.
Donna Fezler
Healing energy in a bottle - Rhea capsules
Reply to gcr@rhealiving.com
-------------------------------------------
Dear Donna,
PLEASE BE EXTREMELY CAREFUL USING ANIMAL WASTE FOR FIS FEED !! My very
strong recommendation is : DO NOT under any circumstances use raw animal
waste. It has to be treated first in a digester or as compost or exposed to
thermophilic heat to kill the pathogens !
This is particularly important as you will be or planned to use fish as a
protein source for babies, which do not have the immune system to combat
pathogens !
Just a warning as a microbiologist !
Best regards
Horst Doelle
---------------------------------------
These are all the posts I have maintained in the thread on animal manure as
fish feed. If I've missed (or misfiled) any, please let me know. The
conversations then went into alternatives as feed other than commercially
available feed, biogas digesters, etc. I'm really sorry that I have not put
these into an available archive, and I'll certainly try to accomplish that
within the next two weeks.
Paula Speraneo
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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| Message 5 |
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Subject: Re: response to animal-waste aquaculture
From: Gordon Watkins
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 09:35:35 -0600
Rob,
I agree with your definition of aquaponics, but it is, nevertheless, a
manure-based system. The plants are fed exclusively on fish excreta.
While much of the solids are removed by the growing beds and/or
particulate filters, microbes most certainly pass through and the fish
grow in a microbial and nutrient rich soup which, in green systems like
Geoff's, helps encourage algae growth for supplemental fish feed, just
as occurs in well fertilized ponds. How do you reconcile your acceptance
of this practice with your and Horst's concerns with other manure-based
aquaculture systems?
Just wondering,
Gordon
Harrop wrote:
>
> Perhaps these practices are the reason why some of the world's worst
> epidemics originate in the far east. Manure use is too intensive nowadays
> and the quality of the manure is now contaminated with hormones, heavy
> metals and pathogens.
> Yes, these practices are necessary where population densities require the
> use of intensive methods; however, it does not mean the food is healthy in
> the whole sense of the word. By the way, by dumping animal waste into water
> gives rise to some fantastic algal blooms otherwise known as red tide.
> My defintion of aquaponics is the integration of hydroponics and
> aquaculture.
> Rob
> Just a Guy in Canada
> ----------
> >
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Subject: Introductions
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 21:06:20 -0600
We have several new members today - with a wide range of needs and
experiences. I would again urge all of you who have not done so to let us
know a little about yourselves and your backgrounds, as well as your
needs/expectations from the list. It's a wonderfully diverse group,
international in scope, with a great deal of information to share. If you
post before midnight, CST, you will reach all of us, even those who take the
digest version.
Glad to have each of you, and hope to hear from you soon.
Paula Speraneo
PS - Steve - would really like to hear of your experiences raising Tilapia
in Africa.
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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