Aquaponics Digest - Wed 03/11/98
Message 1: Greenhouse structures
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 2: Re: Greenhouse structures
from Whichwind
Message 3: Re: Greenhouse structures
from Whichwind
Message 4: Re: Aquaponics questions/subjects
from Gordon Watkins
Message 5: Re: Aquaponics questions/subjects
from Gordon Watkins
Message 6: re: Re: Fwd. Rainwater
from jmsutton@atl.bna.boeing.com
Message 7: Re: Whale Updates, Not good news
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 8: Re: Component Ratio
from james.rakocy@uvi.edu (James Rakocy, Ph.D.)
Message 9: Re: Aquaponics questions/subjects
from "H.Doelle"
Message 10: Re: Component Ratios
from Ian Beaver
Message 11: Marine Aquaponics
from John Shannonhouse
Message 12: [Fwd: Virus Warning]
from donald trotter
Message 13: Re: [Fwd: Virus Warning]
from "Jim S"
Message 14: Re: [Fwd: Virus Warning]
from Linda Wymore
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 1 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Greenhouse structures
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:07:40 -0600
At 02:45 PM 3/9/98 -0500, Maggie Gingras wrote:
>As a lurker and investigator, let me say that I, and perhaps others, are
>prone to being intimidated, rightly or wrongly, by those such as
>yourself and other more experienced practitioners. I think there might be
a certain segment who are hoping to not sound simplistic and obvious and
wait to see if their questions might be answered over time.
>
>Intellectualizing over, I have my question to pose. I would like hear
>from those whose existing systems are housed in attached or
>free-standing greenhouses or solar structures: pros, cons, problems,
>advantages, materials, structure, construction, heating, insulation,
>etc., etc., etc.
Maggie - thanks for the comments. I do definitely understand the feeling,
and I notice that when I write I sound much more "formal" than my verbal
self. I'll try to correct that. As for questions for the group, I don't
know that there is a wrong one to ask. Makes me feel good when there's
something I can contribute by answering.
As for your question on greenhouses, we currently operate in a free-standing
passive solar house. Our original pilot greenhouse was a 12'x24' addition
to the back of the house, with venting into the house during the winter to
share the heat and humidity (and our CO2).
Perhaps these question should be broken down into more specific pieces, with
your first priorities listed at the top. Perhaps that would give people
whose time is limited more opportunity to comment. For instance, we used
wood for both our greenhouses, but with the humidity factor in aquaponics,
would not build the same way again.
I'll try to readdress these questions at little later, and don't want to see
the subject ignored - just not enough time today (having a tooth pulled in
about an hour).
Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 2 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Greenhouse structures
From: Whichwind
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:36:29 EST
In a message dated 98-03-11 12:08:03 EST, you write:
<< For instance, we used
wood for both our greenhouses, but with the humidity factor in aquaponics,
would not build the same way again. >>
Hi Paula,
Could you elaborate on this? I am guessing that maybe too much moisture
caused some rotting in the wood?
Cheryl
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 3 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Greenhouse structures
From: Whichwind
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:37:38 EST
In a message dated 98-03-11 12:08:03 EST, you write:
<< >Intellectualizing over, I have my question to pose. I would like hear
>from those whose existing systems are housed in attached or
>free-standing greenhouses or solar structures: pros, cons, problems,
>advantages, materials, structure, construction, heating, insulation,
>etc., etc., etc. >>
Maggie,
This goes ditto for me too!!
Cheryl
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 4 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Aquaponics questions/subjects
From: Gordon Watkins
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:49:40 -0600
Hello Jim,
Microbial considerations aside, I think rabbit manure is more valuable
as a soil amendment than as tilapia feed. It's one of the most sought
after fertilizers for organic growers. You would be ahead to set up a
vermicomposting system underneath your rabbit cages, feed the worms to
the fish, and use the compost in the garden to produce food crops for
yourself, with residues fed to the rabbits, crayfish, tilapia, and
worms.
My 2 cents,
Gordon
jmsutton@atl.bna.boeing.com wrote:
>
> > I'd like to raise fish, crayfish, rabbits, and vegetables. I want to
> have as efficient a food cycle as possible, both in getting maximum
> food value out of inputs to the system, and in my labor to run the
> system.
>
> It seems to me that the easiest way to put all these elements together
> would be something like putting the rabbit cages over the fish tanks,
> and letting the rabbit droppings just "drop"...i.e., into the water.
>
> Now, I've seen some people foam at the mouth at the idea of using animal
> manure as fish feed, and other people foam at the mouth at the idea of
> denying this same practice. I have no idea who is right. Is there a way
> to make this approach safe pretty much "as is" (e.g., through preventive
> health practices that keep the rabbits healthy)? Or, if it cannot be made
> safe, is there a way to modify this approach for safety (e.g.,
> through some worm-processing of the rabbit manure, and some way to use
> the resulting product)?
>
> One of your many fascinated "lurkers"
>
> Jim
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 5 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Aquaponics questions/subjects
From: Gordon Watkins
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:02:44 -0600
We have a 14' x 22' passive solar aquaponic greenhouse attached to our
home. The advantages are that it helps heat and humidify our home in the
winter, it's easy to heat the greenhouse because the north wall (our
home) is heated, electrical and water hookups are already in place,
construction costs are lower than a freestanding structure, and it's
really easy to pick a quick salad and fillet for dinner!
Disadvantages are that, in the summer, the heat and humidity must be
kept out of the house (we use large sliding windows to control heat
transfer into the house), and sometimes my wife complains about the
"earthy" smell which occasionally creeps into our home (on the other
hand, it also smells sweetly of tomatoes, basil and jasmine sometimes
too).
Regards,
Gordon
John Gingras wrote:
> > I would like hear
> from those whose existing systems are housed in attached or
> free-standing greenhouses or solar structures: pros, cons, problems,
> advantages, materials, structure, construction, heating, insulation,
> etc., etc., etc.
>
> Thanks
> Maggie Gingras
> Compass Mountain Farm
> Suttons Bay, MI
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 6 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: re: Re: Fwd. Rainwater
From: jmsutton@atl.bna.boeing.com
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 98 9:24:59 EST
So I assume the lime suggestion means that Tilapia can tolerate hard
water? What about catfish?
Jim
--------------------original message----------------------------
>Please, please filter this
> >water. It is relatively easy. Catch your water but, before you use it,
> >pour it through a sand/limestone/charcoal filter. Sand will take out a
> >lot of physical impurities. Lime has the ability to bind some chemicals
> >and neutralize acid(s) and charcoal will remove a lot of undue elements.
Hi.
Can anyone fill in more details on how to make one of these filters,
specifically the volumes of sand, limestone and charcoal, I presume you
put them in layers, or do you mix them all together. Also, what granular
size of limestone, and charcoal work best. I need to filter about 200
gallons per hour, and about 1200 gals per day.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 7 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Whale Updates, Not good news
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:21:16 -0600
Donald Trotter has updated information on the above situation for those who
would like to receive it. Please contact him directly at:
donald trotter or
curly@popmail.millennianet.com
Paula Speraneo
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 8 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Component Ratio
From: james.rakocy@uvi.edu (James Rakocy, Ph.D.)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 17:53:04 -0400 (AST)
>Hi
>
>Ive got a question regarding ratio's of fish to garden beds. If one has
>an ornamental tank, that is comparatively lightly stocked with fish,
>compared to if you where growing larger fish for food production, what
>ratios would you use then. It seems to me that the ratios would need to
>be expressed in volume of bed to weight of fish.
If a fish is not eating it will not put out many nutrients. Therefore the
feeding rate is more accurate in expressing the amount of nutrients
generated. The fish just process the feed. The volume of the bed is not very
important either in regards to nutrient uptake. The surface area devoted to
plants is what counts. In agriculture, fertilizer application, nutrient
uptake, and crop production are all expressed on an area basis - lb/acre,
kg/hectare. So to me the most important ratio is grams of fish feed per
square meter of plant growing area per day. In our early work with lettuce
we found that 57 g/m2/day was a good ratio for bibb lettuce. Feed at a
higher rate and nutrients will accumulate, possibly reaching toxic levels.
Feed at a lower rate and nutrient deficiencies may occur. So in a lightly
stocked and fed ornamental tank, you would have to reduce your plant growing
area to satisfy this ratio. The optimum ratio will vary depending on the
amount of water exchange (which should be minimized in aquaponics), the
retention time of solids (the longer the retention the more nutrients are
released through microbial decay) and the type of plant. You are right, with
tomatoes or other plants with a high growth rate, the ratio should probably
be higher. With tomatoes you also want to regulate your nitrogen levels so
you get more fruit production and less vegetative growth. Jim R.
>
>Another question that comes to mind regards fertility levels. If one
>wanted to grow gross feeding plants such as tomatoes, is it practical to
>obtain sufficient levels of nutrition to feed these plants. There is a
>huge difference between the nutritional levels for lettuce than
>tomatoes. Any thoughts on this.
>
>Regards
>
>Ian Beaver
>Northland, New Zealand
>
>
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 9 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Aquaponics questions/subjects
From: "H.Doelle"
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 07:58:50 +1000
Dear Jim,
I fully agree with Gordons suggestion. Actually vermicomposting becomes an
ever increasing system in Vietnam as far as I have learned. A group of
researchers from Colombia and UK are working on projects of ecofarming
doing exactly that.
Regards
Horst
At 12:49 PM 11/03/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Hello Jim,
> Microbial considerations aside, I think rabbit manure is more valuable
>as a soil amendment than as tilapia feed. It's one of the most sought
>after fertilizers for organic growers. You would be ahead to set up a
>vermicomposting system underneath your rabbit cages, feed the worms to
>the fish, and use the compost in the garden to produce food crops for
>yourself, with residues fed to the rabbits, crayfish, tilapia, and
>worms.
> My 2 cents,
> Gordon
>
>jmsutton@atl.bna.boeing.com wrote:
>>
>> > I'd like to raise fish, crayfish, rabbits, and vegetables. I want to
>> have as efficient a food cycle as possible, both in getting maximum
>> food value out of inputs to the system, and in my labor to run the
>> system.
>>
>> It seems to me that the easiest way to put all these elements together
>> would be something like putting the rabbit cages over the fish tanks,
>> and letting the rabbit droppings just "drop"...i.e., into the water.
>>
>> Now, I've seen some people foam at the mouth at the idea of using animal
>> manure as fish feed, and other people foam at the mouth at the idea of
>> denying this same practice. I have no idea who is right. Is there a way
>> to make this approach safe pretty much "as is" (e.g., through preventive
>> health practices that keep the rabbits healthy)? Or, if it cannot be made
>> safe, is there a way to modify this approach for safety (e.g.,
>> through some worm-processing of the rabbit manure, and some way to use
>> the resulting product)?
>>
>> One of your many fascinated "lurkers"
>>
>> Jim
>
>
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 10 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Component Ratios
From: Ian Beaver
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:11:51 +1300
Hi Gordon, James and other aquaphiles
I see now that the balance must be maintained within the biomass, both
in the tank and the growing beds. This question arose from considering
use of a growing bed to filter the effluent in an ornamental pond, where
fish growth rate is not the central issue, since the pond is already
relatively lowly stocked and the fish are of a small size.
As Mr James Rakocy pointed out, the issue is how much food is applied to
the pond, and this raises the issue of over feeding. As I see it, it is
perhaps possible to feed at a constant rate, even if it is greater than
the fish need, and to balance this food against the biomass of the
growing bed.
I am planning a installation growing ornamental fish, that will be
initially purchased as small fingerlings and will grow to saleable size
in a year or so. My motivation is not economics, but interest in
integrated biosystems. Initially I plan to run largish numbers of small
fish and to expand into more tanks as the fish grow.
What I need to be clear on are the parameters for maintaining balance in
artificial ecossytem that I will create.
As tanks I will be using second hand household baths that are available
very cheaply and in large numbers, as a result of people remodelling
there bathrooms, so there is no limit to the expansion possibilities.
Each bath contains about 100gl/500l or so.
However in the first instance, the total weight of fish will be very
small, and the food level will be similarly small, but as they grow the
biomass will increase. I need to be able to think this through clearly
before beginning.
My approach is have a system of plants that is adjustable, perhaps in
grow bags, so that I can take away or add as required. I would need
another system to store the unwanted bags. whilst not in use as filters.
I also run a conventional, chem based hydroponics growing operation
producing runner (climbing) beans, so am familiar with the nutritional
concepts of hydroponics, however my true interest is with organics and
biosystems, hence my interest in this topic.
In the long term I would love to convert my hydro growing operation to
organics, and I now see the potential of aquaponics in this regard.
In chem based hydroponics, we determine the nutritional level of
nutrient fluid by measuring the electrical conductivity of the same, and
express it in units of EC or CF. I personally use CF units. Typically
the beans that I grow are kept at 18-22 CF. Tomatoes however require a
CF of 35 or more typically and lettuce a low CF of 5-10. I have, and
use, a CF meter to measure the level of nutition in the feeding fluid
and a controller that maintains this desired level of feeding.
This leads me to the question as to whether any operators of aquaponic
systems actually monitor their CF/EC levels, and even if that is an
appropriate thing to do in biological systems. I suspect that the
results might not be as meaningful, but more indicative perhaps. After
all biosystems can never be the semi exact science that chem based
hydroponics has become.
Gordon - you are obviously growing tomatoes and cucumbers together in
the same nutrient, and I am growing beans and cucumber in the same
nutrient, tho I have also some tomatoes that are not doing well in this
same environment. I suspect that the organic/bio nature of your system
promotes a wider range of tolerance.
In considering my chem based hydro system, I notice that the scenario
that it is based on, ie soluble salts, is totally deviod of carbon, and
it is my belief, that carbon has a great regulating capability. After
all, all life is carbon based, or at least as far as I know. In a chem
based hydro system, the carbon is introduced by the plants breathing
carbon dioxide, but what I am more interested in is the stabilising
effect of carbon within an ecosystem such as an aquaponics system. In
fact chem base Hydroponics suggest that we go out of our way to keep
carbon out of the root zone.
I note with interest that carbon has a unique position in the periodic
table, ie half way between one extreme and the other. This has got to be
important.
Any thoughts.
Regards
Ian Beaver
Carbon based life form from New Zealand
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 11 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Marine Aquaponics
From: John Shannonhouse
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 21:16:50 -0600
Hello,
Donald Trotter mentioned marine aquaponics systems. What do you
grow in marine aquaponics systems? How are they set up?
John Shannonhouse
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 12 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: [Fwd: Virus Warning]
From: donald trotter
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 19:32:46 -0800
>Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 21:46:59 -0500
>From: Samuel Kaymen
>To: sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu
>Subject: [Fwd: Virus Warning]
>Subject: RE: Virus Warning
>Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 01:49:44 +0100
>
> This is to inform you about a new Virus!!!!!!
> A new virus has started to spread: it is called "WIN A HOLIDAY" and is
> linked
> with a promotion by Air New Zealand !
> If you receive an email titled "WIN A HOLIDAY" DO NOT open it.
> It will erase everything on your hard drive.
> Forward this letter on to as many people as you can.
> This is a new, very malicious virus and not many people know about it.
> This information was announced (Monday 16) morning from Microsoft;
> please share
> it with everyone that might access the internet.
> Once again, pass this along to EVERYONE in our address book so that this
> may be
> stopped.=20
>
Donald Trotter
The Organic Resource Centre
293 Neptune Ave.
Encinitas, CA. 92024
curly@mill.net
1.888.514.4004
fax- 760.632.8175
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 13 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Virus Warning]
From: "Jim S"
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 22:15:15 -0600
This [Win A Holiday] sounds like a variation on the old 'Good Times Virus'.
The email you just sent out is the only damage done, and that's just by
eating up bandwidth.
I've attached a funny note I received a while back on another list, but it
contains some very useful info about viruses [the computer kind, that is;]
********************************************************************
WARNING, CAUTION, DANGER, AND BEWARE!
Gullibility Virus Spreading over the Internet!
********************************************************************
WASHINGTON, D.C.--The Institute for the Investigation of
Irregular Internet Phenomena announced today that many Internet users are
becoming infected by a new virus that causes them to believe without
question every groundless story, legend, and dire warning that shows up in
their inbox or on their browser.
The Gullibility Virus, as it is called, apparently makes people
believe and forward copies of silly hoaxes relating to cookie recipes,
email viruses, taxes on modems, and get-rich-quick schemes [perhaps
conspiracy theories should be included here--C's note].
"These are not just readers of tabloids or people who buy
lottery tickets based on fortune cookie numbers," a spokesman said. "Most
are otherwise normal people, who would laugh at the samestories if told to
them by a stranger on a streetcorner." However, once these same people
become infected with the Gullibility Virus, they believe anything they read
on
the Internet.
"My immunity to tall tales and bizarre claims is all gone,"
reported one weeping victim. "I believe every warning message and sick
child story my friends forward to me, even though most of the messages are
anonymous." Another victim, now in remission, added, "When I first heard
about Good Times, I just accepted it without question. After all, there
were dozens of other recipients on the mail header, so I thought the virus
must be true." It was a long time, the victim said, before she could stand
up at a Hoaxees anonymous meeting and state, "My name is Jane, and I've
been hoaxed." Now, however, she is spreading the word. "Challenge and check
whatever you read," she says.
Internet users are urged to examine themselves for symptoms of
the virus, which include the following:
The willingness to believe improbable stories without thinking.
The urge to forward multiple copies of such stories to others.
A lack of desire to take three minutes to check to see if a
story is true
T. C. is an example of someone recently infected. He told one
reporter, "I read on the Net that the major ingredient in almost all
shampoos makes your hair fall out, so I've stopped using shampoo." When
told about the Gullibility Virus, T.C. said he would stop reading email, so
that he would not become infected.
Anyone with symptoms like these is urged to seek help
immediately.
Experts recommend that at the first feelings of gullibility,
Internet users rush to their favorite search engine and look up the item
tempting them to thoughtless credence. Most hoaxes, legends, and tall tales
have been widely discussed and exposed by the Internet community.
Courses in critical thinking are also widely available, and
there is online help from many sources, including:
Department of Energy Computer Incident Advisory Capability
at:
Symantec Anti Virus Research Center at
McAfee Associates Virus Hoax List at
Dr. Solomons Hoax Page at
The Urban Legends Web Site at
Urban Legends Reference Pages at
Datafellows Hoax Warnings at
Those people who are still symptom free can help inoculate
themselves against the Gullibility Virus by reading some good material on
sources, such as:
Evaluating Internet Research Sources at
Evaluation of Information Sources at
Bibliography on Evaluating Internet Resources at
Lastly, as a public service, Internet users can help stamp out
the Gullibility Virus by sending copies of this message to anyone who
forwards them a hoax.
*******************************************************************
This message is so important, we're sending it anonymously!
Forward it to all your friends right away! Don't think about it!
This is not a chain letter! This story is true! Don't check it out! This
story is so timely, there is no date on it! This story is so important,
we're using lots of exclamation points! For every message you forward to
some unsuspecting person, the Home for the Hopelessly Gullible will donate
ten cents to itself. (If you wonder how the Home will know you are
forwarding these messages all over creation, you're obviously thinking too
much.)
*******************************************************************
ACT NOW! DON'T DELAY! LIMITED TIME!
NOT SOLD IN ANY STORE!
********************************************************************
--
-----
--------
----------
> From: donald trotter
> To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
> Subject: [Fwd: Virus Warning]
> Date: Wednesday, March 11, 1998 9:32 PM
>
> >Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 21:46:59 -0500
> >From: Samuel Kaymen
> >
> >Precedence: bulk
> >
>
> Donald Trotter
> The Organic Resource Centre
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 14 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Virus Warning]
From: Linda Wymore
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 20:45:07 -0800
donald trotter wrote:
> >
> > This is to inform you about a new Virus!!!!!!
> > A new virus has started to spread: it is called "WIN A HOLIDAY"
My sister sent the same one.. to which I replied with
the following info:
These warnings are HOAXES!!!
Before sending them to everyone and promoting this kind
of nonsense please do a search and check it out.
See: http://chekware.simplenet.com/hoaxfaq.htm
Here is some advice from there on what to do when
you get such an email virus warning:
HELP, What do I do!
1.DON'T PANIC.
This is the cardinal rule, more damage is done
through panic than these hoaxes could ever do if
they were real threats.
2.DON'T send it on to anyone else. You will only
make the impact larger and spread the misinformation.
3.DON'T destroy the evidence. It makes it much harder
to offer advice on pure hearsay. Just give us the facts!
4.DO verify that it is a hoax. Either here, or contact
your security department, or local virus guru, for
guidance. You might also check with any official
bodies that are mentioned in the e-mail as they can
confirm/deny their involvement.
5.DO Tell the original sender. Once verified as a hoax,
let the person(s) who sent you the hoax know.
This will help to stop the same thing happening
to others, and hopefully educate and therefore
eradicate this threat.
[and maybe send this back to everyone that you
sent the hoax virus warning to.. so they will
stop sending it on]
--------------------------
Here's another site to check out before you panic:
http://kumite.com/myths/
================================================
No harm done. You meant well... but don't do it again. Linda
P.S. Loved that Gullibility Virus!!
|
