Aquaponics Digest - Sat 02/13/99
Message 1: RE: Redclaw Sources in Oz
from Andrew
Message 2: Redclaws
from "Wendy Nagurny"
Message 3: Re: Pool turning into - a U-still?
from "Fred Chambers, FMChambers@CSUPomona.edu"
Message 4: Re: Lessons learned, was Re: Redclaw vs Tilapia
from jilli and lars
Message 5: Re: Water Treatment
from jilli and lars
Message 6: ??R?e?: ?eart?hwo?rm ?&
path?ogens????????????????????????????????????????
from jilli and lars
Message 7: Re: Pool turning into Reality (Aquaponic Apparel?
from jilli and lars
Message 8: RE: Suppliers
from Andrew
Message 9: mental compost and the mutant pool
from jilli and lars
Message 10: Urine for fertilizer
from Adriana Gutierrez
Message 11: purpose of earthworms in gravel
from "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Message 12: identifying crayfish from Florida
from "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Message 13: Re: Earthworms and Pathogens
from "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Message 14: Re: earthworm & pathogens?
from "brett deiser"
Message 15: Re: Earthworms and Pathogens
from "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Message 16: ?the short history of aquaponics?
from jilli and lars
Message 17: Re: Pool turning into Reality
from james.rakocy@uvi.edu (James Rakocy, Ph.D.)
Message 18: Re: Pool turning into - a U-still?
from Michael Strates
Message 19: Re: purpose of earthworms in gravel
from Michael Strates
Message 20: Re: earthworm & pathogens?
from Michael Strates
Message 21: Re: Pathogens
from Michael Strates
Message 22: Re: Pool turning into Reality (Aquaponic Apparel?
from Michael Strates
Message 23: Re: Solar Cells in production
from "Dale Robinson"
Message 24: A thought about Urine
from Michael Strates
Message 25: Compressed Air (was Solar Cells in production)
from Gordon Watkins
Message 26: Re: purpose of earthworms in gravel
from Gordon Watkins
Message 27: Re: A thought about Urine
from "Dale Robinson"
Message 28: Re: A thought about Urine
from Michael Strates
Message 29: Re: purpose of earthworms in gravel
from "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Message 30: Re: Compressed Air (was Solar Cells in production)
from "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Message 31: Re: purpose of earthworms in gravel
from Michael Strates
Message 32: Earthworms and Pathogens
from mdsenger@webtv.net (Michael Senger)
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 1 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: RE: Redclaw Sources in Oz
From: Andrew
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:09:57 +1030
Marron take up to two years to become viable in Oz.
Three years to sexual maturation. They also are not extremely fecund.
They thrive in cool fast flowing streams.
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 2 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Redclaws
From: "Wendy Nagurny"
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 03:11:32 -0500
I do believe redclaws are what are sold in the restaurants as langosta or
langostinos for the very small ones. These are usually sold as tails.
Their prices per ounce are similar to lobster. A local restaurant is
offering surf-and-turf with 3.5 oz of langostinos "smaller than peeler
shrimp" at the same price as the surf-and-turf with a 4 oz lobster tail.
I recently saw three "mini-lobster" tails in the shells of about two to
three inches long each sold on a skewer for $4.99 in the seafood section of
a local grocer. So there is a market for these out there. I read on a web
site that a meal of soft shell langostas sell for around $100 a plate when
they are offered. To get a soft shell langosta, one has to cook them within
three to five hours after they molt. The shells are paper thin and edible.
Does anybody know how to properly prepare soft shell langosta?
Wendy
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 3 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Pool turning into - a U-still?
From: "Fred Chambers, FMChambers@CSUPomona.edu"
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 23:27:56 -0800
Strates>I've been fooling around with a urine still. Urine in one end, fresh,
Strates>clean, potable water out the other and powdered urea in the still.
Just a
>one ga
What's your heat source? It is solar, right?
Strates>Urine eventually converted to nitrate would be what? Ammonium nitrate?
Strates>
Curious question. I don't remember my O-chem and Bio-chem well enough to
rattle off this answer. With Ammonium-Nitrate and a little Bio-Deisel, you
could be an environmentally-friendly terrorist. Good thing you are not in
the States --- the FBI would be all over you for making your own
Ammonium-Nitrate!
:) Ha ha ha!
Fred
FMChambers@csupomona.edu Agricultural Sciences
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Black Walnut Alliance is one of many campus groups encouraging Cal Poly
to explore environmentally responsible uses of campus green spaces. Visit
and post at sites urging alternatives to golf:
http://www.csupomona.edu/~jmikeda/la401/cap/ (Clean Air Park Proposal)
http://www.regen.org/bwecc.html (BWA's Energy Center Proposal)
http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~muse/ (Multi-Use Development Strategy)
http://www.rokcircle.com/bbs/ (The Wilderness Forum)
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 4 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Lessons learned, was Re: Redclaw vs Tilapia
From: jilli and lars
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:40:34 -08
> At 12:26 AM 2/11/99 -0700, Mike Senger wrote:
>
> >(7) Add earthworms to the gravel beds.
> > Sprinkle fresh earthworm castings over the bed surface periodically
> >(micro biological bacterial innoculant).
What is the reason for adding earthworms to the gravel beds? Is this to help
control the buildup of dead roots and other detritus? Do they help keep the
gravel beds unclogged? Or is there some other purpose?
> Mike - thanks for sharing your observations. It's great to have this type
> of information shared with the group.
>
> Paula
yes, thanks mike.
la
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 5 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Water Treatment
From: jilli and lars
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 22:48:32 -0800
ozone is a known carcinogen
just boil the water or put it through a solar distiller
lar
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 6 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: ??R?e?: ?eart?hwo?rm ?&
path?ogens????????????????????????????????????????
From: jilli and lars
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 23:58:13 -0800
Michael -
Why are you so so concerned about pathogens?
Have you personally had any _problems_ with pathogens from your system?
Do you know anybody who has had _problems_ with pathogens in their systems?
Does anybody have any personal stories about problems with pathogens and
aquaponic systems?
I truly believe that by exposing your system to high concentrations of poisons
you are doing more harm than good.
I imagine that a properly maintained aquaponic system should be as safe as any
lake or stream.
Natural systems are pretty damn good at maintaining a healthy balance. I know,
because i'm part of one. The same one y'all are part of.
By exposing an isolated portion to an extreme amount of poisons, you are
isolating your system from the positive balancing bacterial effects of the
larger bio-system known as planet earth.
By emulating natural systems as much as possible, you are approaching the
healthy aspects that a diverse biosystem offers.
lars fields
Michael Strates wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Feb 1999, doelle wrote:
>
> d> The gravel will absorb most pathogens, but I certainly would like to
> d> see a good aeration in the pool to make sure that pathogens do not
> d> grow happily in eventually anaerobic conditions. Also one has to
> d> watch that the gravel is not eventually coated with pathogens.
>
> Or, the person who originally asked can do what I'm doing.. I have a
> seperate wormfarm which I draw about 30L of nutrient rich water off. I
> pour some sodium hypochlorite into it, and then filter the (now sterile
> water) through granular activated carbon and volia -- a hygenic aquaponic
> nutrient bed amendment.
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 7 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Pool turning into Reality (Aquaponic Apparel?
From: jilli and lars
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 00:33:24 -0800
Michael Strates wrote:
> However, under all but the most severe conditions, urine is pretty sterile
> and hence I feel that you could use it as a supplemental fertilizer in
> small quantities in the water, perhaps passed through a biofilter first to
> convert it all to nitrate. Hmm... this sounds like another project for
> me.
> ________________
hey michael-
You are right.
Your own urine is completely sterile unless you have a bladder or urinary
tract infection.
For example, certain sects in India (and elsewhere) drink straight urine daily
with no ill effects.
Though I am not brave enough to ingest it directly, I have used my own urine
in my experimental aquaponic system to grow tomatos which I ate with no ill
effects (except this strange addiction to the aquaponics listserver).
Nitrosomas and Niterbacter are your friends.
However, feces is a different matter.
There is no reason to sterilize or expose your own urine to poisons if you are
using it for growing your own food. Urine is a concentrated form of potential
nutrients. By comparison, feces is made up of things your body did not use,
while urine is made up of things your body has _already_ used (and, therefore,
would probably use again). Your urine IS what your WERE, more than any other
substance you produce (except, maybe, a baby).
Therefore if you are growing what you will become (ie. because you will eat
it), urine is quite appropriate as a nutrient source.
you are what you eat....
....ad infinitum
lars
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 8 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: RE: Suppliers
From: Andrew
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:37:15 +1030
In Australia: Aquaculture Advantage 61 885 243 962
-----Original Message-----
From: HoneyAcres [SMTP:HoneyAcres]
Sent: Friday, 12 February 1999 10:13
To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
Subject: Suppliers
Does anybody know a supplier of aquaponic systems? (websites?)
Thanks,
Steven
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 9 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: mental compost and the mutant pool
From: jilli and lars
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 02:37:30 -0800
Jon Hays wrote:
> Lars if you miss the Carter years you forgot about the double digit
> >inflation and the high interest rates that led to all this high cost of
> >living. John
> >
(I originally planned on redirecting this discussion through personal
email, rather than going through the list. I know off-subject issues like
politics aren't appreciated on most listservers. However, as i wrote it, it
seemed to actually be quite on-topic, so i decided to let it be part of the
ongoing aquaponic document corpus. Should this discussion continue as a
debate, I will try to do so privately rather than risk the multitude of
reprimands I would surely receive.)
Hi John -
Before I get to the relevant info, I always thought Carter was
basically trying to deal with the largest deficit in US history up to that
date (that is, until Reagan took it to even higher heights trying to
outspend the soviets.) This deficit was due to huge expenditures accrued
during the Nixon years, mostly for paying for the 'police action' in
Vietnam. Therefore, blaming Carter for the mess he acquired when he entered
office isn't really valid. Just like it isn't valid to say that Clinton is
*the cause* for our current (apparent) economic boom. The economy is
dependent on many, many, many more factors than what 'flavor' of president
is currently in office. Nor is it really valid to expect an administration
to fix a faltering economy in less than 4 years, IF an administration is
capable of _affecting_ an economy, even if it tried.
For example, lets say a hypothetical president somehow manages to
redirect 1 percent of the defense budget into setting up educational
aquaponic systems and fancy computers in every school in the nation (the
defense budget is where 1/5 of your tax money goes if you are fortunate
enough to live in the USofA). Lets also say this happens during a
hypothetical recession. Four years go by and the recession still exists, so
Joe and Josephine Public kicks out this president and elects someone else
who, of course, promptly gives the 1 percent back to the loudly whining
military. The school's computers become obsolete and dusty and everybody
starts to complain about that strange smell coming from the unused and
unvisited greenhouse.
Four terms go by (16 years for you outside the US) and the
hypothetical generation of kids who were 12 years old during our
hypothetical president's term are now 28-year old entrepreneurs. These whiz
kids who were exposed to a rich compost of ideas when they were young now
create a multitude of money-generating new businesses. Does our original
hypothetical president get the credit? Probably not. Do his/her ideas get
the credit? Same answer.... But that isn't important, anyway...
President Carter had solar panels installed on the roof of the white
house. One of *the* first things Reagan did when he moved in was to remove
these panels. Why did he bother? The solar panels weren't doing anybody any
harm. They were already paid for. Why not leave them up? Do you think it had
something to do with the people who supplied money for his campaign? He most
likely removed them because they were a symbol, one that Reagan's true
employers (ie. the oil biz) didn't like.
I was a child (7-11 years old) during the Carter years. Those years
that he was in office made a difference to me then, and this legacy
continues now: Often when I research something I'm interested in, I find
USGovDoc microfilms that are dated between 1976 and 1980. There is a
suprising lack of any interesting *publically available* material from the
80's onward, especially studies funded by the government. These sorts of
things matter to burgeoning industries like aquaponics which, in turn,
affect people's lives and, therefore, national economies. The minute amount
of money that managed to find its way to those crazy people who were staring
at the sun and peeing in ponds helped create much of what IS aquaponics.
Aquaponics might have happened without someone like Carter, but then again,
it might not have.
Just as biodiversity keeps ecosystems vital, diversity of ideas
keeps cultures (and therefore economies) vital.
Lars Fields
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 10 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Urine for fertilizer
From: Adriana Gutierrez
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 06:46:42 -0500
> How about a two gallon urine tank that's heavily aerated with airstones
> and what have you, an attached one gallon biofilter.. urine goes in, after
> seven days you have a safe, clean fertilizer..
I've read about a composting operation in the Phillipines I
believe, where homeless people were organized to make compost out
of plant refuse delivered to the municipal dump. An integral
part of their operation was the collection of urine which was
added to the pile to heat it up. This, along with an agressive
routine of turing the piles on a rigid schedule yielded excellent
compost in about two weeks. This provided a livelihood for the
participants.
Adriana
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 11 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: purpose of earthworms in gravel
From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 06:30:27 -0700 (MST)
You said:
What is the reason for adding earthworms to the gravel beds? Is this to
help control the buildup of dead roots and other detritus? Do they help
keep the gravel beds unclogged? Or is there some other purpose?
________________________________________________________________________
Anyone: This is a very good question. I too would like to know. Which
worms should we use? How do we keep them in the trays (at night)? We have
3 worm areas for raising worms now, a "Can-o-Worms", a smaller container
and our composting toilet. Or should we use earthworms? Jorg Ostrowski
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 12 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: identifying crayfish from Florida
From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 06:35:22 -0700 (MST)
My fish supplier does not know which type of crayfish we have in our
greywater gardenwall system. What is the best way to identify them? I
would like to identify their common and latin names. Jorg Ostrowski
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 13 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Earthworms and Pathogens
From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 07:29:49 -0700 (MST)
You said:
"Do what I do.. Microwave all scraps for 2 minutes before they go into the
worm beds (make sure they cool down! :-).. or, alternatively chlorinate
them and let the chlorine dissipate over two days. Peroxide could be
useful here."
_________________________________________________________________________
Michael: Microwaving and chlorination sounds extremely counterproductive
in my books for many reasons. In our GreyWater GardenWall where we
integrate hydroponics (vegetables) and marshes (fish) and another fish
tank we just irrigate (and circulate) the fish tank water for 30 minutes
a day, before using the water in the house again. Lets keep unnecessary
electrical bills, EMF and chemicals out of the biosphere. In our case, what
goes in will come out (our system is closed loop).
*****************************************************************************
Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto),
- in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978),
environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting
on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops.
- 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors
- college campus and office tower recofit under construction
- living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office
ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671
Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm
e-mail:
############################################################################
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 14 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: earthworm & pathogens?
From: "brett deiser"
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 07:03:50 PST
>You said:"(7) Add earthworms to the gravel beds.
> Sprinkle fresh earthworm castings over the bed surface periodically
>(micro biological bacterial innoculant).
Do earthworms do well in gravel medium? Do you need to
have "refuse/compost" for the worms to eat? If so do you just put it on
in a top dressing manner?
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 15 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Earthworms and Pathogens
From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 08:17:37 -0700 (MST)
Michael: Thanks for another gem. I am prepared to modify my hydroponic
system right away as soon as you or some other generous person can get me
a copy of the referenced material about the work in India (or similar work
elslewhere).In addition, I am willing to turn my slow sand filters into a
new prototype greywater filter using your suggestions and referenced literature.
Thanks for the inspiration and useful comments. Jorg ostrowski
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 16 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: ?the short history of aquaponics?
From: jilli and lars
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:19:25 -0800
James Rakocy, Ph.D. wrote: .
> lars wrote:
>
> >
> > By the way, a study titled "An Ecological Approach to a Water
> >Recirculating System for Salmonids: Preliminary Experience" (Kenneth T.
MacKay
> >and Wayne Van Toever) was also presented at the same symposium that year. I'm
> >wondering if this was one of the first published studies of what eventually
> >became 'aquaponics'. But I was 12 at the time, so i don't really know.
Anybody
> >else?
>
> It was not the first. I first saw the term "aquaponics" in an Alternative
> Aquaculture Network (an offshoot of the Rodale project) newsletter article
> in the late 80s. It's a very good term because before that we were calling
> them integrated systems, which could refer to almost anything.
----------------------------------
Just to clarify: I'm not saying it was the first use of the *term*
'aquaponics'. Nor is that what I was wondering.
I was wondering whether it was one of the first uses of aquaponic
*techniques*
(ie. hydroponic beds with bacteria for filtering water from fish culture
tanks), at
least in a controlled study (It was presented in 1981).
I'm curious about the history of this method. It seems so strange that
something
so simple and obvious would have it's origins so recently.
I'm also interested in the social contexts that create fertile
ground for
these ideas.
lars
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 17 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Pool turning into Reality
From: james.rakocy@uvi.edu (James Rakocy, Ph.D.)
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 15:47:31 -0400 (AST)
>Mmmm. . . this is a bit disturbing. . . I bought a couple of 45 mil EPDM liners
>to make tilapia tanks out of. . . are we then limited to concrete or fiberglas?
>David B.
>
High and low density polyethylene (HDPE and LDPE) liners are all right.
>"James Rakocy, Ph.D." wrote:
>
>> Tilapia will eat rubber (hypalon) liners and create leaks at the folds.
>> Incidentally, tilapia also enjoy eating motor oil when your sump pump leaks.
>> There's potential here for cleaning up oil spills. Jim R.
>
>
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 18 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Pool turning into - a U-still?
From: Michael Strates
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:02:33 +1100 (EST)
On Fri, 12 Feb 1999, Fred Chambers, FMChambers@CSUPomona.edu wrote:
FCFCe> What's your heat source? It is solar, right?
Yes, a small mirror reflector.
FCFCe> environmentally-friendly terrorist. Good thing you are not
FCFCe> in the States --- the FBI would be all over you for making
FCFCe> your own Ammonium-Nitrate! :) Ha ha ha! Fred
Ha.. I can imagine the FBI examining the machine.
"Well, my investigator.. you urinate in this end and an industrial
oxidizer appears in here after seven days" :-)
--
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 19 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: purpose of earthworms in gravel
From: Michael Strates
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:08:20 +1100 (EST)
On Sat, 13 Feb 1999, Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote:
JDO> Anyone: This is a very good question. I too would like to know. Which
JDO> worms should we use? How do we keep them in the trays (at night)? We have
JDO> 3 worm areas for raising worms now, a "Can-o-Worms", a smaller container
JDO> and our composting toilet. Or should we use earthworms? Jorg Ostrowski
We constantly use earthworms in this group to describe redworms. Placing
redworms in your gravel beds has several numerous "good" consequences:
1. they aerate the roots, preventing them from becoming matted.
2. they keep your bacteria colony under control by eating a few of them.
3. the worms fix other important nutrients into a form that plants can
. use.
4. they provide a supplemental feed for your fishes.
--
e-mail: mstrates@croftj.net www: http://www.croftj.net/~mstrates
See keyservers for PGP info. Linux! The OS of my Choice!
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned
skyward, for there you have been, and there you long to return."
- Leonardo da Vinci, and below an extract from John Fogerty's song:
Hey, Tonight - Gonna be tonight- Don't you know I'm flyin'- Tonight
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 20 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: earthworm & pathogens?
From: Michael Strates
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:10:40 +1100 (EST)
On Sat, 13 Feb 1999, brett deiser wrote:
bd> Do earthworms do well in gravel medium? Do you need to
bd> have "refuse/compost" for the worms to eat? If so do you just put it on
bd> in a top dressing manner?
The worms will do just fine eating bacteria and the bits of fish poop that
float on in. However, you might want to put a few spoons of corn meal in
each bed every week if you feel sorry for them or want to fatten them up
(2 teaspn flour, 1 teaspn corn meal for fattening).
--
e-mail: mstrates@croftj.net www: http://www.croftj.net/~mstrates
See keyservers for PGP info. Linux! The OS of my Choice!
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned
skyward, for there you have been, and there you long to return."
- Leonardo da Vinci, and below an extract from John Fogerty's song:
Hey, Tonight - Gonna be tonight- Don't you know I'm flyin'- Tonight
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 21 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Pathogens
From: Michael Strates
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:28:38 +1100 (EST)
On Fri, 12 Feb 1999, jilli and lars wrote:
jal> Have you personally had any _problems_ with pathogens from your system?
Yes, like I said.. E.Coli from animal wastes (foolishly) added to my
system around a year ago.
jal> I truly believe that by exposing your system to high
jal> concentrations of poisons you are doing more harm than good.
A biocide like Hydrogen Peroxide disappears without a trace after a day or
two into oxygen. Ozone turns into oxygen, and chlorine as hypochlorites
simply bubbles out as chlorine gas (leaving dioxin, and whatever made up
the hypochlorite - ie: sodium or calcium in the water).
My point is?? Perhaps you mightn't like chlorine.. Fine! But there's many
natural ways to clean the water, like using peroxide. Peroxide IS
natural.. its found in plants, flowers, etc.. Ground ozone IS natural..
that's the fresh smell that tickles your nose and hurts your eyes during a
severe thunderstorm.
--
e-mail: mstrates@croftj.net www: http://www.croftj.net/~mstrates
See keyservers for PGP info. Linux! The OS of my Choice!
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned
skyward, for there you have been, and there you long to return."
- Leonardo da Vinci, and below an extract from John Fogerty's song:
Hey, Tonight - Gonna be tonight- Don't you know I'm flyin'- Tonight
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 22 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Pool turning into Reality (Aquaponic Apparel?
From: Michael Strates
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:38:34 +1100 (EST)
On Sat, 13 Feb 1999, jilli and lars wrote:
jal> Your own urine is completely sterile unless you have a bladder
jal> or urinary tract infection.
Outputs of an Average Person Per 24 Hour Period
(a little on the high side)
urine 1.50kg, h2o as perspiration/respiration 2.28kg, feces h2o 0.09kg,
urine solids 0.06kg, feces solids 0.03kg, perspiration solids 00.02kg
It seems that we'll generate around one and a half liters of urine every
day (assuming 1kg=1l of fluid) and of that, we'll end up with only
enough solids to fill three small 20ml medicine glasses.
If what I'm saying is correct, then over a seven day period, we would have
generated:
60 x 7 = 420 grams of solids.
Lets round that off to 400 grams.. I buy my hydroponic nutrient in 400
gram packs! It lasts me three weeks.
jal> For example, certain sects in India (and elsewhere) drink
jal> straight urine daily with no ill effects.
Nitrate poisioning?
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 23 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Solar Cells in production
From: "Dale Robinson"
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 14:42:32 -0600
I guess I confused more than one person with this statement. I'll attempt
to explain it better.
>On Fri, 12 Feb 1999, Dale Robinson wrote:
>
>DR> Compressed air does not heat up. compressing air "concentrates"
>DR> heat as it "concentrates" the air.
Air contains heat. The act of compressing air does NOT heat the air.
The heat that you feel if you were to feel a tank of freashly compressed air
is the heat that was in the air before it was compressed. The compressed
air has the same amount of heat as the uncompressed air. It's just in a
more concentrated form.
(To better understand this principal you might try studing air
conditioning.)
>DR>The compressed air then cools
Heat will follow the path of least resistence. Therefore, the heat will
dissipate into the surounding air until it reaches equalibrium.
>DR> off in the compressor. Using compressed air will cool the water.
When the air is uncompressed(starting at a lower temperature) it will come
out colder(lacking heat).
Since water is 1200 times the concentration of air, it will take a LOT of
air to change the temperature of the water much.
>
>Cools 'off' in the compressor? How would the air cool down if more energy
>is being added to it by compressing it, or am I missing something?
Cooling off in the Compressor(compressed air container) requires time for
the heat to transfer to the environment. Some heat is lost from water vaper
being concentrated. If you have an air compressor you will have to drain it
occasionally.
The energy you are adding by compressing the air is released when the air is
uncompressed. Very little of the energy used to compress the air is
transfered to the air as heat.
After the compressed air has lost most of its heat, it will absorb heat when
it is uncompressed.
>
If you are still confused, please e-mail me privately
Best regards
Dale Robinson
prof-robinson@worldnet.att.net
http//home.att.net/~prof-robinson/page7.html
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 24 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: A thought about Urine
From: Michael Strates
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:40:52 +1100 (EST)
Just a thought..
For those people (like me) that go to work or study for some reason.. how
about just capturing the morning urine. That wouldn't be that much of an
inconvenience, and the morning urine is about as potent as all of the
daytime stuff put together.
Anybody feel free to comment.
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 25 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Compressed Air (was Solar Cells in production)
From: Gordon Watkins
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 17:28:31 -0600
I recently visited a commercial aquaponics operation in Oklahoma which has been
running sucessfully for fifteen years and for several years the only
supplemental heat for the large 30,000 gallon tilapia tank housed in an
uninsulated metal building was the heat produced by a 137 cfm air blower. The
owner measured an air temperature rise of 18 degrees F. for every 1 lb. of air
pressure. Maybe a blower is different from a compressor?
Gordon
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 26 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: purpose of earthworms in gravel
From: Gordon Watkins
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 17:30:30 -0600
About a year and a half ago, I released a few worms in my gravel beds, both red
wigglers and night crawlers. I was dubious as to how well they would adapt to
gravel but I had some of each left over from a fishing trip so, what the hey, I
released them. Now I see many of each species whenever I disturb the gravel. I
also see little piles of castings on the surface of the beds each morning so I
suspect they may offset compaction and aid in good percolation. I've also seen
baby worms (wormlings?) in the fish vats where they have presumably washed
during
flood cycles. Besides providing feed for the fish, the worms also help
support the
small frogs I've released to help with pest control. There are many benefits to
worms in aquaponic systems but I have yet to identify a detriment. Above
all, they
add one more strand in the web of life and help create a more diverse and stable
mesocosm.
I now have several bins where I raise quantities of red wigglers which help
compost spoiled produce, prunings, newsprint, etc. I harvest a few to feed my
tilapia breeders, use the tea to fertilize plant starts, and the compost
provides
potting soil. Worms have a secure and permanent place in my system.
Gordon
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 27 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: A thought about Urine
From: "Dale Robinson"
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 16:28:06 -0600
>
>Just a thought..
>
>For those people (like me) that go to work or study for some reason.. how
>about just capturing the morning urine. That wouldn't be that much of an
>inconvenience, and the morning urine is about as potent as all of the
>daytime stuff put together.
Urine is the waste products from the body. If you eat too much salt, it
will go into the urine. If you have diabetes, the urine will have some
sugar. Urine also contains some acetone. If you start using something in
your system that is always changing(according to what is in the diet amount
of exercise et.) then you don't know what is going to the plants. Be safe
and don't pee on the plants.
The main advantage of using hydroponics as part of the aquaponic connection
is the ability to have control of what goes to the plants. If you are going
to throw all kinds of unknowns at them, you would be better off growing them
in soil. Soil acts as a buffer so you can make bigger mistakes without
losing the whole crop.
I don't mean to suggest that you change to soil gardening, just that it's
better to stick with that that works.
Best regards
Dale Robinson
prof-robinson@worldnet.att.net
http//home.att.net/~prof-robinsonpage7.html
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 28 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: A thought about Urine
From: Michael Strates
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 23:15:55 +1100 (EST)
On Sat, 13 Feb 1999, Dale Robinson wrote:
DR> Urine is the waste products from the body. If you eat too much salt, it
DR> will go into the urine. If you have diabetes, the urine will have some
DR> sugar. Urine also contains some acetone. If you start using something in
DR> your system that is always changing(according to what is in the diet amount
DR> of exercise et.) then you don't know what is going to the plants. Be safe
DR> and don't pee on the plants.
I'm not talking about directly putting urine onto the plants. I'm talking
about using bacteria to convert the urea into nitrate, and then perhaps
using reverse osmosis to seperate salt and other impurities from the
mixture (I think nitrate will go through the RO membrane okay.. anybody
know??). Then distill the nitrate, and collect the powder for use as a
high nitrogen nutrient.
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 29 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: purpose of earthworms in gravel
From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:58:18 -0700 (MST)
Gordon: Thank you for your encouraging words. I will add worms to our
greywater hydroponics tomorrow. But what in the world is "mesocosm"? Is
that your word, or does it exist in the real world? I like the idea of
frogs. I have 2 marshes, as part of the greywater treatment process and
perhaps they would be happy there. Has anything been written about frogs
in such a small ecosystem ("mesocosm"?). Thanks again for your worthy
comments. Jorg Ostrowski
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 30 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Compressed Air (was Solar Cells in production)
From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 19:02:18 -0700 (MST)
Gordon: I would like more info on this interesting backup heating system.
I know that if your put compressed air into a vortex tube, the spiralling
air produces warm air out one end and cool air out the other end. This
is well known technology. But what is this chap using? Jorg ostrowski
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 31 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: purpose of earthworms in gravel
From: Michael Strates
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 00:08:17 +1100 (EST)
On Sat, 13 Feb 1999, Gordon Watkins wrote:
GW> About a year and a half ago, I released a few worms in my gravel
GW> beds, both red wigglers and night crawlers. I was dubious as to
I'd be suprised if they were nightcrawlers. Nightcrawlers build permanent
burrows in which thye will reside for the rest of their lives. When
harvesting night crawlers, the people destroy the burrows, and the
nightcrawler must make another one.
They cannot stand being crowded like redworms, and instead burrow very,
very deep (some have been traced to going over 8 feet down!) into the
soil. They cannot and will not live happily in a vermicomposting
environment, let alone gravel. Nightcrawlers REQUIRE soil.
Perhaps you put a different species of night crawler in?? I know they
cannot survive in areas with low soil content.
--
e-mail: mstrates@croftj.net www: http://www.croftj.net/~mstrates
See keyservers for PGP info. Linux! The OS of my Choice!
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned
skyward, for there you have been, and there you long to return."
- Leonardo da Vinci, and below an extract from John Fogerty's song:
Hey, Tonight - Gonna be tonight- Don't you know I'm flyin'- Tonight
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 32 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Earthworms and Pathogens
From: mdsenger@webtv.net (Michael Senger)
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 20:54:04 -0700 (MST)
I think many are missing the point - you can not disinfect an active
aquaponics system. The fresh fish feces will almost always contain
harmful bacterium. Eat some or get some on the leaves of your lettuce
and don't wash it off - you will probably get at least a little sick.
The growing media, sand, gravel, plastic whatever it is, will over time
develop bacterium appropriate to consume whatever pathogens are
present.
The earthworms are just like little tractors tilling and aerating the
media and farming the beneficial bacteria.
I would never want to use chlorine (sodium hypochlorite) - the dioxide
cancer danger is very real.
I personally never disinfect anything in any of my systems. I believe
the key is to let nature develop complex aerobic bacterial cultures.
Just keep it aereated and don't exceed the systems capacity to process
the fish wastes and food detritus.
I think you could actually eat manure and other nasty rotting organics
after these things have been "touched" by earthworms. Basically just
eat a big mouhful of worms, worm feces and garbage. Not only won't you
get sick, but you may actually benefit from the beneficial bacteria.
These are my observations.
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
|
