Aquaponics Digest - Mon 02/22/99
Message 1: Re: Lettuce post-harvest handling
from PHRL33A@prodigy.com (MS JEAN R SHAFFER)
Message 2: Re: request for nutrient supplier
from PHRL33A@prodigy.com (MS JEAN R SHAFFER)
Message 3: Mesclun
from PHRL33A@prodigy.com (MS JEAN R SHAFFER)
Message 4: Re: Solar Heat
from PHRL33A@prodigy.com (MS JEAN R SHAFFER)
Message 5: Re: Mesclun Mix
from Dave Miller
Message 6: Re: Solar Heat
from "Ted Ground"
Message 7: bacteria and genetic exchange...
from jilli and lars
Message 8: Re: good bacteria
from jilli and lars
Message 9: tank paint
from PHRL33A@prodigy.com (MS JEAN R SHAFFER)
Message 10: Re: bacteria and genetic exchange...
from jilli and lars
Message 11: Re: Solar Heat
from PHRL33A@prodigy.com (MS JEAN R SHAFFER)
Message 12: Re: tank paint
from khale@ballistic.com
Message 13: Re: bacteria and genetic exchange...
from doelle
Message 14: Re: bacteria and genetic exchange...
from Dave Miller
Message 15: Re: tank paint
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 16: Paint info received
from "Glennert Riedel"
Message 17: Paint info received
from "Glennert Riedel"
Message 18: Wind Turbine DooHicky
from "Ted Ground"
Message 19: Painting the Cement Pond, or ,Wrap that Rascal.
from "Ted Ground"
Message 20: natural pond building
from "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Message 21: Re: natural pond building
from William Evans
Message 22: Re: natural pond building
from "Wendy Nagurny"
Message 23: Re: natural pond building
from Dave Miller
Message 24: Re: natural pond building
from "Ted Ground"
Message 25: Re: natural pond building
from "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Message 26: Re: natural pond building
from "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Message 27: Re: natural pond building
from Gordon Watkins
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| Message 1 |
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Subject: Re: Lettuce post-harvest handling
From: PHRL33A@prodigy.com (MS JEAN R SHAFFER)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:15:05, -0500
Hi Glen
Thanks for explaining mesculn. No I'm not into commercial growing.
The com end to my email address is from my work in ecoforestry.
Jean
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Subject: Re: request for nutrient supplier
From: PHRL33A@prodigy.com (MS JEAN R SHAFFER)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:19:10, -0500
Thanks Lars for not forgetting about my Reln
> Wriggly Wranch address request for not only red worms but that
explanation sheet they send explaining the ideal worm bin to make.
Thank you for going to the trouble you are to track it down. I'm
standing by with barrel, kitchen scraps and so on.
Best
Jean
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| Message 3 |
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Subject: Mesclun
From: PHRL33A@prodigy.com (MS JEAN R SHAFFER)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:27:17, -0500
Thank you Adriana for the further explanation of Mesculn. This is
the neatest e group!
Best
Jean
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Subject: Re: Solar Heat
From: PHRL33A@prodigy.com (MS JEAN R SHAFFER)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:37:12, -0500
This was posted "You can also get good solar hot water heater,
photovoltaic (PV), and other
energy related information and products from Real Goods, 966 Mazzoni
Stret,
Ukiah, CA 95482 phone 800 762 7325 in California call 707 468-9214.
(I
think Real Goods also distributes the Copper Cricket,"
I wanted whoever to know Real Goods doesn't carry any solar hot water
heaters at this time.
Best
Jean
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Subject: Re: Mesclun Mix
From: Dave Miller
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:58:37 -0500
For the mesclun growers:
Also throw in arugula, red oak, mighty oak, raddiccio, brassica narinosa
(asian specialty, nice dark green with crunchy stem), most any of your
mustard family, dandelion, etc.
The key is young, small and tender, small enough to not need shredding,
colorful and at least some with a pungent flavor. You could also add in
chive cuttings, garlic chive cuttings (and flower tops) and nasturtium
leaves and flowers. An occasional basil leaf or cilantro or parsley
sprig also do nicely. It depends upon your buyer and what you are
willing/able to grow.
I do not believe that there is any hard and fast rule for what defines
mesclun except "tender mix".
You can get mixes at:
Sheperd's Garden Seeds
30 Irene St.
Torrington, CT 06790-6658
(860-482-3638)
www.sheperdseeds.com
I'm not sure if commercial quantities/prices are available, however I
have personally grown their California sampler which includes various
"cut and come again" lettuces plus endive, arugula, mizuna, curly cress,
red mustard, etc.
I always let some go to seed and I am still going strong 4 years
later...
--
Dave
A "green" home remodeler
A father of 2 cockatiels
An organic farmer
A veggie drummer/keyboardist
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Subject: Re: Solar Heat
From: "Ted Ground"
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:04:31 -0600
> I wanted whoever to know Real Goods doesn't carry any solar hot water
> heaters at this time.
>
> Best
> Jean
Thanks Jean. I guess my info on that was either very dated
or perhaps I was "mis-remembering".
Do they still sell those instantaneous or "on demand" hot water heaters? I
don't have their current catalog. Also, they used to offer a fairly
comprehensive energy analysis and solar components design manual, as I
recall.
Ted
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Subject: bacteria and genetic exchange...
From: jilli and lars
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:59:10 -0800
Hi horst -
doelle wrote:
> Lars,
> Where on earth do you get those ideas from ? Bacteria just can grab genes
from the air or environment ? Gene transfer in nature without mul;tiplication ?
> Please give me your source of information. As a microbiologist I am very
concerned about your 'bacterial philosophy'.
> Horst
------------------------------------------
If you reread what i last wrote (still at the bottom of this page),
you will see that I never stated, nor insinuated, that bacteria "can grab genes
from the air or environment".
I stated "Bacteria have various methods for transferring genetic
material across individuals and _even _across_species".
As a microbiologist, I'm sure you're aware that many unicellular
lifeforms (even unicellular eukaryotes, like paramecium) can (and do on a
regular
basis) exchange genetic material between individuals of the same species.
Likewise, bacteria of the same species can come into contact with one
another and
exchange bits of genetic material. There are other 'third party' vectors
(like viruses) for transferrence of genetic material across species lines.
Humans,
for good or bad, are just beginning to learn how to harness similar viral
vector techniques for gene therapy.
I also asked if you had heard of Lynn Margulis. Her work is the main
source of this information. She's quite a famous, even celebrated,
microbiologist. This isn't pseudo-pop-science theory (though she has
written several accessible-to-the-layperson books you could find in any
bookstore with
a half-decent science section). This is current, mainstream microbiology.
These ideas are what I was taught in my biology courses in high school and
college. Bacterial exchange of genetic material is a fact confirmed by
observation and probably hundreds of experiments.
Additionally, sometime in the 60's, I believe, it was discovered
that mitochondria have their own genetic material. Soon after, the same
thing was
found to be true for chloroplasts. For those of you who've forgotten your
cellular biology, mitochondria and chloroplasts are both organelles within
cells.
Mitochondria are the powerhouses of the cell - where a lot of energy
conversion goes on. Chloroplasts, only found in plant cells, are where the
chlorophyll
is and where conversion of light to chemical energy storage takes place.
These organelles, in many ways, are the foundations that all life is built
on (other
than bacteria and viruses).
From the fact that these organelles have their own gentic material,
Lynn Margulis formulated the, now very widely accepted, theory that both of
these organelles were actually bacterial in origin, evolutionarily speaking,
that is. What i mean is, sometime billions of years ago, a bacteria invaded the
cell walls of a larger cell. This bacteria was originally a parasite,
possibly even a harmfull one. However, the two eventually coevolved into a
mutualistic
symbiosis, whereby they each performed functions for the other, and
eventually became mutually dependent. Additionally, together they proved
more adaptable
than other cells without mitochindria, so that now virtually _every_
eukaryotic, plant and animal cell on planet earth contains mitochondria.
This was a
_very_ key event in the planet's evolution and caused drastic changes
worldwide and probably led the evolution of multicellular life. Many other
organelles
are probably bacterial in origin as well (cilia and flagella, for example).
Her theories are showing us that much of evolution is cooperation, not only
competition, as we are so commonly taught.
lars field
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Subject: Re: good bacteria
From: jilli and lars
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:59:51 -0800
hi horst -
doelle wrote:
> Lars,
> It all depends on the amount released and whether is steadily released. It
certainly can become a health hazard or do you want to run around with a
constant headache ? The amount is the concern. If it is small, ok. If nobody
lives around, it may be ok. I am surprised to learn that you are not so
concerned about air pollution.
> Good luck Horst
I believe you are misinterpreting what i wrote. I'm not sure how you
arrived at the conclusion that i am unconcerned with air pollution. I've
encountered hydrogen sulfide all my life - like anytime i've dragged
something up from the bottom of a lake or pond , so I associate it with what
goes on at the bottom of a pond - ie.
*normal*, and therefore healthy, biological activity. I simply had no reason
to suspect that it would cause health problems, as I wouldn't expect the
smell of recently cut grass (although a much more pleasant smell) to cause
health problems. I was not denying that hydrogen sulfide causes health
problems either. Of course,
living in an enclosed environement with too much of any gas (or anything)
generally is a risky thing in terms of health.
................
Despite all this, I still would argue (but with an open mind to be
convinced otherwise) that a certain amount of anaerobic activity going on in
a submerged substrate is both natural and beneficial for biodiversity from
the micro to the macro (note: this is for greywater systems).
Submerged plant roots growing into the substrate maintain a
localized aerobic zone around their immediate periphery, which means you've
got layers of aerobic and anaerobic bacteria exchanging materials. These
layers, added up, amount to a dendritic web of biological interaction with
an _incredibly_ huge surface area. So
you can pack more intense biological activity, with more bacterial
biodiversity, into a small space.
This increases the chance that any dangerous persistent poisons that
might find their way into one's system will be broken down, as it increases
the chance that you'll have that particular bacteria that has the metabolic
'tools' to do it.
...I guess....
lars fields
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Subject: tank paint
From: PHRL33A@prodigy.com (MS JEAN R SHAFFER)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:41:52, -0500
Hi Glennert
Here's what my paint man sold me:
"Simpson Coatings" Jet Black (104-017) Cordurite Epoxy
"Simpson Coatings" Cordurite Converter (104-020)
"Simpson Coatings" 309-025 Epoxy Brush Thinner
My paint man ordered the Cordurite Epoxy and Cordurite Converter in 1
qt cans because I'm not a professional at mixing this stuff and I
guess it starts drying fast or something.
It cost $13.35/qt
shipping was $37.51
According to my reciept it looks like they didn't charge me for the
thinner so I don't know its cost!
Manufactured by The Simpson Coatings Group
111 South Maple Ave South
San Francisco CA 94080
toll free 1 - 800 - 877- 5997
I am suppose to first fill cracks smaller than 1/4 inch with: "ac
products inc." Flexible Seal
This construction grade high performance seanlant is manufactured
by:
ac products, inc.
172 East La Jolla St
Placentia CA 92670
(714) 630-7311
Fx (714) 666-8309
I am suppose to v out cracks larger than 1/4 inch and fill with:
Durham's Rock Hard Putty
Des Moines Iowa 50304
I was suppose to paint on a conditioner first but since my cement is
cured (15+ years) I don't need that. You probably would have to, to
get all the moisture out of your fresh concrete.
My instructions are to fill cracks and wash down with soap and water
and allow to dry.
Then mix the Cordurite Epoxy with the Cordurite Converter one to one
and put on 2 coats. The brush thinner is for thinning it so it's not
to "draggy" painting it on. It needs 55 to 60 degree F temperature
to cure. If it's cooler (45 degrees) it will stay soft for months.
I'm suppose to let it cure for at least 10 days before I fill it
with water. And for my application (fish) wait 20 to 30 days, then
test with gold fish for a couple of weeks before starting my fish
farm.
Hope that helped.
Jean
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Subject: Re: bacteria and genetic exchange...
From: jilli and lars
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:51:35 -0800
By the way, if anyone is thinking about reading a good overview of the
subject of genetic exchange and mitochondiral DNA, pcik up "Microcosmos" by
Lynn Margulis
and Dorian Sagan.
She even mentions aquaponics in space. well... sort of
lars
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Subject: Re: Solar Heat
From: PHRL33A@prodigy.com (MS JEAN R SHAFFER)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:46:02, -0500
Ted
I can't answer you questions regarding Real Goods other goods because
I never tried ordering the ones you mentioned.
Sorry
Jean
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Subject: Re: tank paint
From: khale@ballistic.com
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 16:53:08 -0600
Whats been used for years in this industry for years is Zophar 111. It i=
s
a single stage paint and you can get it at 1/800-333-9154 $20.95 gal plus
shipping. Hope that helps. Ken
172 East La Jolla St
...Chapter 10
of that book describes in great detail how to build the Vertical-Shaft
Pierson Wind Turbine..it is basically a modified S-rotor system with
aluminum or galvanized sheet metal scoops or half-cylinders as rotors, but
it ALSO has these neat stationary vectoring
vanes to scoop up even more wind into the rotor. These are really just
fixed walls pointing at a tangent to the rotor buckets. He calls these
fixed walls stator vanes, or just stators....
That is the best part of this design, I think because it allows the
configuration to begin putting out power in 5 MPH winds or below, depending
on the length of the stator (wall) from the vertical shaft out to the end
of the stator. You have to rig up a
generator and some gears, and for high winds you might have to figure out
how to shut it down or rig up a governor, but it looks do-able for a
wild-eyed
tinkerer like myself...
James Baldwin (of Whole Earth Catalog notariety) claims that his experience
has shown that few wind machines can develop sufficient output at the low
wind speeds (under 9 mph average) common in most locations, and that few
prove to be reliable over the long haul- due to mechanical wear, etc..And
so he recommends that if you are going to go out and buy a wind turbine,
that you should try to find a used Jacobs brand wind turbine which were
built in the 1930s through the 1950s...He further recommends photovoltaics
as a better overall deal than wind power. (But I think the big PV packages
for
the whole house are pretty expensive - like 5, 10 or 15 thousand bucks)
Pierson uses plastic sheeting as a wall sheathing for the stators. I would
probably use sheet metal or treated plywood to make it stronger and more
permanent- paint it and it might look a lot better too...so it can be made
to kind of blend into the farm building "scenery", up on a high platform
behind the barn or whatever.. You should be able to build it for something
like $300 to $500 1978 dollars- what is that now? $1000 or so? That does
not count the batteries. I guess I would look to one of the solar electric
suppliers I mentioned in another post to source my batteries- probably
those gel lead
acid types??
That estimated cost will also depend on the extent of your
walls and whether or not you already have an available platform...For best
results, every bit of height helps, so the rule of thumb is that a wind
turbine should be 15 feet above all obects within 400 feet for best
results. Thus, it is recommended to put this revolutionary bad boy up on a
roof top, or platform or hill-top.
Don't Worry, Be Happy.
Ted
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Subject: Painting the Cement Pond, or ,Wrap that Rascal.
From: "Ted Ground"
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:00:32 -0600
Aquaponikers,
Adey and Loveland, in their seminal work "Dynamic Aquaria, Building Living
Ecosystems", call for etching concrete with phosphoric acid prior to
painting it with epoxy coatings. This gives you a better bond and "bite"
as the coating experts like to say.
If you are going to go with concrete fish tanks, look into the polymer
fiber fill material that is used now to bring a 3000 psi concrete mix up to
a 4000 psi product. The tiny polyethylene(?) fibers bond the concrete at
a micro scale and minimize cracking. I used it for my packing house slab
and it is great stuff. Gunnite and concrete pumps are quite a joy to work
with in the Texas heat.
Also, I have a hot lead on a new coating that I am really eager to try, but
have not had the chance, so ya'll go for it:
Protekt Coating out of Vancouver Washington. They make a couple of products
for this purpose. One is called Prothane and the other is called Proshield,
I think.
Phone is 360 256-1548. Fax is 360-256 1735. Ask for Roger in sales. He
will send you out some small samples of the material. One gallon of this
stuff is about $40- sounds expensive, but it will coat 26 square feet at 60
mils thickness, or better yet 150 square feet at 5 to 10 mil coating on
the concrete. I have some samples of this stuff and it is impressive-
Elastic and seemingly indestructible- Let me know if you try this stuff and
what you think about it.
I found that poly liners that come in sheets are good and cost effective,
but if they have seams, they are likely to, or at least subject to, leaks.
Of the 2 I have tried, I recommend Raven Plastics over InLine Plastics ANY
DAY OF THE WEEK- I have tried both. Also, I would avoid 30 mil poly liners
if you are placing them into a square or rectangular tank. 30 mil is good
for lining earth or concrete ponds with smooth contours. Use 20 mil for
the square or rectangular tanks. It makes all the difference in the world
in terms of tucking it into the corners.
Cheerio.
Ted
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Subject: natural pond building
From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:17:19 -0700 (MST)
How would you build a natural small pond in the backyard for bullrushes,
frogs and wetland (perhaps for greywater cleaning?). I do NOT want to use
concrete, poly, hypalon, EPDM, etc. Jorg Ostrowski
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Subject: Re: natural pond building
From: William Evans
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:19:54 -0800
to build w/o a liner???? then need clay on top of gley. this is
waterproof. gley is organic matter like grass clippings/leaves that
has been layered thickly over the bottom of the hole that is to be a
pond.This should be anerobic, really wet and packed.On top of this add
your clay and bottom soils/sands.You could use cardboard /newspapers for
the bottom layer below the grass clippings.
billevans
Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote:
>
> How would you build a natural small pond in the backyard for bullrushes,
> frogs and wetland (perhaps for greywater cleaning?). I do NOT want to use
> concrete, poly, hypalon, EPDM, etc. Jorg Ostrowski
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Subject: Re: natural pond building
From: "Wendy Nagurny"
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 22:20:48 -0500
Jorg,
This depends so much on the structure of your soil. Sometimes people are
lucky enough to just dig a hole around a natural stream or spring and it
will hold water, but usually not. The most reliable way is to dig a hole
around a natural stream or spring, fence it in and allow a few hogs to
compact it for a year or so until it holds water on its own. Then dam
the exit. If you may not keep hogs in your area, you will have to consult
your local ag extension office for suggestions.
Wendy
>How would you build a natural small pond in the backyard for bullrushes,
>frogs and wetland (perhaps for greywater cleaning?). I do NOT want to use
>concrete, poly, hypalon, EPDM, etc. Jorg Ostrowski
>
>
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Subject: Re: natural pond building
From: Dave Miller
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 22:22:31 -0500
Jorg,
Not to joke about pond building but I might just build a hole AND tap
into a spring.
--
Dave
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Subject: Re: natural pond building
From: "Ted Ground"
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:58:53 -0600
Jorg,
For small scale backyard natural ponds, you might try this.
First, dig a hole with a shovel and pick, or with your bare hands.
Next, line it with at least 2 inches of big sheets of cardboard and
newspaper, and or lots of straw, grass clippings, leaves, hair, toe-nail
clippings, corn meal, pond scum, possum grits, moss, swamp goobers, and
various natural exudates. Wet it all down and let it form a slimy organic
mass. If the soil around the site is clay, sprinkle some of it onto the
slimy organic mass. Keep it wet.
If your soil base is very permeable- losing the water in a small, 1 square
foot test hole in less than 2 hours time after filling, then mix up some
bentonite clay (commercially available in 50 lb sacks) and water in a wheel
barrow or some other mixing apparatus that is technologically appropriate.
Coat the bottom and sides of the possum grit pond with about 1/2 to 1 inch
of this wet bentonite clay gamiche..... Wet it and trowel it in as
necessary. Smear it and pack it all in like a gigantic fingerpainting
mural......If you don't want to use bentonite for whatever reason, perhaps
you can find a natural deposit of what us local primitives call
"Caliche"..it may be available in your area if you scour the countryside
for it, excavate it, and haul it back to the pondsite.
"Caliche" around here is a fairly common geological deposit, lying just
below the organic rich calcium montmorillonite clay soils of this region.
It is kind of like yellow-to gray- "Play-dough" but with larger granules.
It packs down real good and tight and can form a kind of pond liner, as
long as it does not dry out- it can form deep and articulated cracks if a
wet dry cycle is introduced. Regardless, I would still recommend the use
of the underlying binding material.
I am eager to hear about your natural pond construction progress, and why
you might have chosen the technique and materials that you decided to use.
Ted
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Subject: Re: natural pond building
From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:01:49 -0700 (MST)
Dave: No springs in suburbia. Rainwater will do, if I supply a natural=20
impervious liner. Jorg Ostrowski
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Subject: Re: natural pond building
From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:08:15 -0700 (MST)
Wendy: We have glacial fill (with clay) here in urban Calgary. Hogs will
not cut it
with neighbours in plastic houses. But the kids just love the frogs that
have bypassed the concrete ponds of the neighbourhood and made themselves
at home in our excavation in the backyard. Wonderful to hear those frogs
shattering the anonymous lives of silent houses. Jorg ostrowski
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| Message 27 |
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Subject: Re: natural pond building
From: Gordon Watkins
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 22:18:19 -0600
Pigs.
Seriously, I've used hogs to seal two dry ponds. If there is the slightest
puddle, they'll wallow in it and enlarge it to whatever size the site will
permit. For small ponds you might consider pot-belly pigs which are much
smaller.
Gordon
"Jorg D. Ostrowski" wrote:
> How would you build a natural small pond in the backyard for bullrushes,
> frogs and wetland (perhaps for greywater cleaning?). I do NOT want to use
> concrete, poly, hypalon, EPDM, etc. Jorg Ostrowski
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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