Aquaponics Digest - Fri 03/26/99
Message 1: Red varieties for salad mix
from Adriana Gutierrez
Message 2: Re: Genetically Engineered Plant Question.
from "M. Brody"
Message 3: silt clogging water lines
from "M. Brody"
Message 4: worm production from fish wastes
from "M. Brody"
Message 5: Re: Genetically Engineered Plant Question.
from doelle
Message 6: Re: worm production from fish wastes
from Adriana Gutierrez
Message 7: Re: Genetically Engineered Plant Question.
from "Doug Basberg"
Message 8: Re: Aquaponics Start - up
from "Doug Basberg"
Message 9: Re: worm production from fish wastes
from "M. Brody"
Message 10: Re: Genetically Engineered Plant Question.
from Gordon Watkins
Message 11: Re: silt clogging water lines
from Gordon Watkins
Message 12: Re: Genetically Engineered Plant Question.
from "TGTX"
Message 13: Fwd. SUMMER INTERNSHIPS
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 14: Re: Genetically Engineered Plant Question.
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 15: Re: Genetically Engineered Plant Question.
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 16: RE: Genetically Engineered Plant Question.
from Alejandro Gallardo Valencia
Message 17: Re: silt clogging water lines
from "TGTX"
Message 18: RE: Genetically Engineered Plant Question.
from doelle
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| Message 1 |
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Subject: Red varieties for salad mix
From: Adriana Gutierrez
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 02:59:06 -0500
Ok guys, new topic. I'd like to increase the red colored
varieties in my salad mix. Do you have any favorites? Any
varieties that are duds? Here are my observations to date:
Winners
-------
Cerize - a frilly red lettuce but slow growing, Gail tells me it
tolerates multiple cuttings well
Bull's Blood Beets - spectacular red leaves, seeds must be
covered to germinate successfully
Reg Giant Mustard - nice zippy taste with oblong reddish leaves
Not so great (for color)
-------------------------
Integrata - nowhere near as red as shown in the catalog
Rosalita - touted as a "red romaine" but not quite, nice as a
green, good growth but color at the baby stage is limited to
occasional speckles, not different enough from regular romaine to
warrant having both in the mix.
Cocarde - promoted as a "red oakleaf" type, but not very red or
distignuishable from green oakleaf to have both in the mix.
Flavor is nice though.
Possibilities
-------------
Cranberry hibiscus - a friend has suggested I try growing this
edible variety of the ornamental for a tangy, lemony falvor,
flowers are edible, suceptible to frost.
Outredgeous - at 10 days it is showing signs of coming up very
very red,seed is pricey
I'd like to hear what others have tried and liked. If there are
specific seasonal issues, that would be useful too.
Adriana
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| Message 2 |
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Subject: Re: Genetically Engineered Plant Question.
From: "M. Brody"
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:34:46 +0200
Thank you TGTX for your letter 0n 19:24 25/03/99 -0600.
>My point was VERY CLEAR...How can you have side effects as you suggest,
>when a single genetic trait has been removed from a plant? I am not saying
>you cannot have side effects, I just am asking what is the basis for the
>arguement...I am asking for open speculation here that addresses the
>specific question.
>
>How can you have digestive, immunological, ecological, sociological,
>geopolitical, yada, yada, yada, yada,... difficulties when the trait in
>question is absent? In the situation that I proposed, the gene has been
>selectively removed, rather than added, to the genome.
Hello,
I joined you to gain practical information about closed aquaculture
systems, but cannot resist adding a word about genetic engineering:
It doesn't matter if you add or remove "a single genetic trait" from a
plant or organism- in either case you have destroyed an internal ballance
which was the product of considerable forethought [or millions of years of
Evolution- depending on your point of view] in the "design" of that
particular organism, and its relationship to its environment.
Was the "negative" trait that we removed balancing off an even more
destructive one?[removing the camphor from the plant allows fungii to grow
unhampered on it ]. Or does it change the food chain? [without the camphor
the plant turns into an ideal host for the larvae of a formerly rare
fly/beetle/moth etc. which destroys all the market crops for a radius of
kilometers]. [[notice that in this case laboratory tests won't help, and
also labeling of the consumer product will come far too late]]? And
finally, what about the consumer: we produced an inexpensive and tasty
sugar supplement- but after 2 generations of human use- we find an alarming
growth of juvenile diabetes cases...
Just a thought...
Menachem
.
Menachem Brody
Machon Helkat Hasadeh
Elon Moreh
mbrody@earthling.net
--------------------------
come tour the Shomron [Samaria] with us at:
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Paradise/3997/
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| Message 3 |
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Subject: silt clogging water lines
From: "M. Brody"
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:40:23 +0200
Shalom from Israel:
We are building a large scale integrated aquaculture system here, planning
to use the water for drip line irrigation [strawberries in greenhouses].
Does anyone have experience with a low cost system for removing the
silt/sediment that clogs the drip lines?
Thank you,
Menachem
.
Menachem Brody
Machon Helkat Hasadeh
Elon Moreh
mbrody@earthling.net
--------------------------
come tour the Shomron [Samaria] with us at:
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Paradise/3997/
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| Message 4 |
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Subject: worm production from fish wastes
From: "M. Brody"
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:44:44 +0200
Does anyone have experience or information on growing red worms from
biological filter waste [sediments] from a fish pond [and feeding them to
the fish]? I have heard that there are systems like this in South America.
Thank you,
Menachem
.
Menachem Brody
Machon Helkat Hasadeh
Elon Moreh
mbrody@earthling.net
--------------------------
come tour the Shomron [Samaria] with us at:
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Paradise/3997/
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| Message 5 |
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Subject: Re: Genetically Engineered Plant Question.
From: doelle
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 21:17:24 +1000
The answer to the following question is:
><<<< In medicine is a completely different story. The GMO is to save lifes and
>also the organism does not come in contact with living people or animals.
> >>
>Greetings Horst,Please explain how genetic engineering could be used in
>medicine,and not come into contact with people or animals?I,m a little
>confused here! Could the trick be in the (Living) part of the phrase?
>
In medicine we produce an antibiotic, a vaccine, that is, we are using the
product of a GMO and not the GMO itself. The key differences are
a) we do not eat the genetically modified food or organism, since the
product from the GMO has no genes and thus is a simple or complex chemical.
b) the GMO at the end of the production process is destroyed and thus has to
be contained according to law and cannot be dumped or used for any further
process except the one produicing the particular product.
The effect of the so produced 'chemical' on our immune system is a different
story. You are well aware of antibiotic resistance, allergy to antibiotics
and allergy to vaccination . BUT it has nothing to do with genes.
I hope I was able to explain and answer your question correctly. If you have
more questions, please ask.
Best regards
Horst
>
Horst W.Doelle, D.Sc., D.Sc. [h.c.]
Chairman, IOBB
Director, MIRCEN-Biotechnology
FAX: +617-38783230
Email: doelle@ozemail.com.au
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| Message 6 |
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Subject: Re: worm production from fish wastes
From: Adriana Gutierrez
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:04:27 -0500
Menachem,
Mr. Alfredo Rodriguez Delfín of the Universidad Nacional Autonoma
in Lima Peru has organized a network of Latin Americans with
interests in hydroponics. He may know of the projects you've
heard of.
You can e-mail him at delfin@lamolina.edu.pe
Adriana Gutierrez
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| Message 7 |
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Subject: Re: Genetically Engineered Plant Question.
From: "Doug Basberg"
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:22:58 -0600
Well said. We had better move slowly and give every step a lot of thought.
I am an engineer and scientist and an atheist. We are fooling with the
fabric of life without much understanding. Children with a book of matches.
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| Message 8 |
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Subject: Re: Aquaponics Start - up
From: "Doug Basberg"
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:40:33 -0600
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BE775B.EEF670D0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I envy your 78 degree temp in March. Here in Michigan the water has some
ice around the edges. You have the catfish and tilapi option, if your water
is going to be warm to hot all year. I think that would be nice. Here, I
use catfish (they handle hot, cold, low oxygen, etc.) and sunfish, blue
gill, and perch (all of which seem to tolerate a large range of water temp).
Good luck. Where are you? Do you have someone near you to get ideas about
fish that thrive there?
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 1999 9:21 PM
Subject: Re: Aquaponics Start - up
>Hello,Help I've got my system started,plants in,started with some minnows
and
>Crappie,just to get things going,water temp 78,plants have quadrupled in
size
>in five days,I'm not sure what is going on but I put five Large pregnant
>Crappie,minnows,and one white bass in the tank.The minnows and white bass
are
>doing fine,but all the crappie died,all of their fins turned clear,and then
>the skin just disappeared,leaving nothing but the fin bones! Ammonia is 0
PH
>7.4 water is crystal clear. Anyone have any ideas on this problem? Thanks
Ken
>
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| Message 9 |
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Subject: Re: worm production from fish wastes
From: "M. Brody"
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 15:34:30 +0200
Thank you Adriana Gutierrez for your letter 0n 07:04 26/03/99 -0500.
>Mr. Alfredo Rodriguez Delf=EDn of the Universidad Nacional Autonoma
>in Lima Peru has organized a network of Latin Americans with
>interests in hydroponics. He may know of the projects you've
>heard of.
>
>You can e-mail him at delfin@lamolina.edu.pe
>
>Adriana Gutierrez
>
Thank you for your prompt response!
Menachem
Menachem Brody
Machon Helkat Hasadeh
Elon Moreh
mbrody@earthling.net
--------------------------
come tour the Shomron [Samaria] with us at:
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Paradise/3997/
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| Message 10 |
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Subject: Re: Genetically Engineered Plant Question.
From: Gordon Watkins
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:31:24 -0600
I think a first step is to gain an understanding of why the "undesirable"
gene is there in the first place. Nature is very efficient and there is
always a good explanation
for why plants exist as they do and there may be unexpected repercussions to
uninformed manipulations.
For example, fescue grass, a common forage crop in the US, harbors the
endophyte fungus. When cattle are grazed for long periods of time on pure
stands of fescue, there
can be problems with reduced weight gains and low fertility due to this
ubiquitous fungus. Endophyte-free fescue seed is available but is not widely
used by practical farmers
because stand persistence is poor, pest resistance is poor, and it is
susceptible to drought. This is because the fungus has evolved in symbiosis
with the fescue plant. It
repels other diseases, is unpalatable to insects (an invasion of army worms
last fall devasted my bermuda grass fields but the fescue was untouched),
and improves water
uptake by the plant. The fescue plant itself is immune (or resistant) to the
negative effects of the fungus. So, farmers have learned to live with the
fungus and have
developed management techniques to minimize its negative aspects.
While this example is not one of genetic manipulation, it does show that
there are good reasons for the presence of even apparently undesirable
traits. I would guess that
camphor has an important role in the viability of the crop you mention and
its removal would probably make it a challenge to grow it economically.
That's just a guess.
Gordon
Ted wrote:
> At 12:03 PM 25/03/99 -0600, you wrote:
> >There has been much ado on this list about genetic engineering pros and
> >cons.
> >And some connections of that topic to organic agricultural practices.
> >
> >
> >
> >I have a question and an illustration that I hope will help convey what I
> >am wondering about. What if a plant contains many genes that are desirable
> >but only one that is undesirable, and somehow you find that you can cut
> >that undesirable gene out, leaving the ones you want remaining in the plant
> >genome?
> >
> >
> >What, if any, kind of objections could be raised against growing such a
> >modified plant in an organic setting?
> >
> >Ted
> >
> >
> >
> Horst W.Doelle, D.Sc., D.Sc. [h.c.]
> Chairman, IOBB
> Director, MIRCEN-Biotechnology
> FAX: +617-38783230
> Email: doelle@ozemail.com.au
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| Message 11 |
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Subject: Re: silt clogging water lines
From: Gordon Watkins
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:44:55 -0600
Hello Menachem and welcome to the list,
Israel is a world leader in the innovation of drip irrigation so I assume
you're familiar with the usual filtration options. While I have not used drip
in my aquaponics system, I have used it for many years in field applications.
My suggestion would be a settling basin followed by a disc type filter such as
the Arkal and the use of emitters with large flow paths. Some of the
"sediment" you mention in the lines may be bacterial slime due to the high
nutrient levels in the water. I doubt mechanical filtration will have an
effect on its removal but you could try either flushing the lines peridically
with dilute hydrogen peroxide or continuous injection of same. Although it's a
powerful oxidant, I've used peroxide in fish tanks, drip lines, and on field
crops with no negative effects as long as the concentration is not too high.
You could experiment to find levels adequate to eliminate the slime without
damaging the crops or fish. Or maybe someone else has tried it and can
recommend a starting point.
Good luck,
Gordon
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| Message 12 |
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Subject: Re: Genetically Engineered Plant Question.
From: "TGTX"
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:06:50 -0600
Greetings from Texas to you there in Israel, Menachem !
you wrote:
> It doesn't matter if you add or remove "a single genetic trait" from a
> plant or organism- in either case you have destroyed an internal ballance
> which was the product of considerable forethought [or millions of years
of
> Evolution- depending on your point of view] in the "design" of that
> particular organism, and its relationship to its environment.
>
> Was the "negative" trait that we removed balancing off an even more
> destructive one?[removing the camphor from the plant allows fungii to
grow
> unhampered on it ]. Or does it change the food chain? [without the
camphor
> the plant turns into an ideal host for the larvae of a formerly rare
> fly/beetle/moth etc. which destroys all the market crops for a radius of
> kilometers]. [[notice that in this case laboratory tests won't help, and
> also labeling of the consumer product will come far too late]]? And
> finally, what about the consumer: we produced an inexpensive and tasty
> sugar supplement- but after 2 generations of human use- we find an
alarming
> growth of juvenile diabetes cases...
Now THAT was a reply. Well spoken, well said. Especially the aspect of
considerable forethought...Hmm.....Now we are talking here.....
Honestly, I dont think I buy into the conclusion that removing a single
gene from a plant- a particular species in this case- the Aztec Sweet Herb-
and growing it in a greenhouse will result in all the disasterous scenarios
that you have listed in your remarks...it just doesn't seem likely to me,
since we have been breeding out traits in plants and animals for
millenia.....but, hey, at least we are streaming some data here...bouncing
it back and forth a little...examining the evidence....
Let's see here....if we were to cross breed several strains of Aztec Sweet
Herb for several generations until we were finally able to remove the
camphor gene by selection...as plant breeders have done for millienia
without too much dire consequences, then that would be O.K. to the organic
community as I under stand it. The reason there are so many varieties of
corn, basil, orchids, and geraniums is due to such efforts of plant
breeders....so far I have not heard reports of geraniums invading New York
Harbor like Godzilla on a bad hair day....but it could happen!
But if we use any kind of nuclease enzymes, or restrictive enzymes, or
polymerase chain reaction technologies to accomplish the same end in
removing certain plant traits then it is considered potentially
disasterous? I guess I am hopelessly lost and just not understanding
something here. -As I have said before, sometimes I have to be led by the
hand--I am, after all, just an "old cow hand from the Rio Grande" and I
tend to be hard of thinking.
In any case, I am not a plant geneticist nor do I have any inclination to
perform this kind of thing in my workshop here on the farm...These things
just pop into my head sometimes while I work in the greenhouse, and I just
think we should look hard at the evidence and then look again, and chew the
cud...contemplate these things and then condense it down into what we know,
what we don't know, and what seems likely.
THIS IS WAY, WAY, OFF TOPIC SO, PLEASE FORGIVE OR IGNORE THIS:
Robert Heinlein wrote a book called Stranger in a Strange Land...in this
future earth scenario, Heinlein created characters called "True
Witnesses"....Their role was to be super keen observers of every detail in
a particular situation, then report what they observed and only what they
observed without personal biases, preconceived notions, or any kind of
embellishment---in his novel they were to report their observations under
legal oath in courts, hearings, depositions, etc. "To tell the truth, the
whole truth and nothing but the truth", as they say...Sort of an
independent social instituion of Expert Witnesses. If you asked one of them
"What color is the house over there on the top of that hill?" They would
say...it appears to be white on this side"....Hmm.....
I couldn't possibly fit into that kind of role myself, being too bull
headed, too Irish, too Texan and too prone to exaggerated, long winded,
extemporaneous prose and poetry. Nevertheless, wouldn't it be great if we
suddenly had many of these True Witnesses in the world--to say it like it
is, so to speak...with all the hoopla that is out there, I would estimate
we might need oh, say, at least 12 times 12 thousand or so to do the job
right. We could call them Reality Checkers.
Just a thought
Ted
(aka son of thunder...which makes me a little thor)
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| Message 13 |
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Subject: Fwd. SUMMER INTERNSHIPS
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:22:57 -0600
Saw this on the AQUA-L list and thought it might interest someone in this group.
Paula
---------------------------------------
>From: RSchmid2
>Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:28:03 EST
>To: AQUA-L@killick.ifmt.nf.ca
>Subject: SUMMER INTERNSHIPS
>Sender: owner-AQUA-L@killick.ifmt.nf.ca
>Reply-To: AQUA-L@killick.ifmt.nf.ca
>
>Hello all,
>990324
>
>Simaron Fresh Water Fish, a tilapia farm near Houston Texas is offering two
>(2) internship positions this summer. Starting date would be as early in May
>as possilbe and go until school starts in the fall. Housing is provided and a
>monthly salary beginning at $800. / month. This is on opportunity to discover
>if you are cut-out to be a fish farmer.
>
>Some minimum requirements. You must be able to lift and carry, under control,
>80 lbs. You must be able to work hard, for extended period of time.
>
>if interested, call (409) 826-3554, fax, (409) 826-4308, or e-mail
>RSCHMID2
>
>Regards, Robert Schmid GM, SFWF
------------------------------------------
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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| Message 14 |
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Subject: Re: Genetically Engineered Plant Question.
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:10:07 EST
In a message dated 3/26/99 6:13:13 AM Eastern Standard Time,
doelle@ozemail.com.au writes:
<<
I hope I was able to explain and answer your question correctly. If you have
more questions, please ask.
Best regards
Horst >>
Thanks Horst Ken
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| Message 15 |
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Subject: Re: Genetically Engineered Plant Question.
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:21:17 EST
In a message dated 3/26/99 7:34:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, dbasberg@ic.net
writes:
<< am an engineer and scientist and an atheist. We are fooling with the
fabric of life without much understanding >>
I'm sorry,but you don't have any understanding! Ken
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| Message 16 |
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Subject: RE: Genetically Engineered Plant Question.
From: Alejandro Gallardo Valencia
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:20:10 -0600
Ted:
Allthough I'm all for responsible genetic engineering, I think Horst =
answered your question. The problem here, with your example, is that =
you can take the right genes to make the plant or anything else for that =
matter, useful, that's what GE does, but first scentists have to have a =
complete and perfect understanding of all the genetic material of the =
plant. Second, as Horst pointed out, there has to be extensive =
testing, etc. Thorough testing is extremely important.
Now, the difference with modified plants and animals (but especially =
plants) and say, vaccines, is that you cannot predict the ecological =
impact or latter modifications of the organism when accidentally ending =
up in an ecosystem. Let's asume, using your example, that this plant =
get's accidentally introduced in what would have been its natural =
habitat, and it competes and wipes out the original organism from that =
niche. Let's imagine that there's a bug that can eat only the natural =
specie, so it dissapears from that place, and so does the lizard that =
eats that bug, and so forth. Then again, maybe nothing bad will happen, =
but we cannot always predict this sort of things. Again, to me testing =
is one of the main issues, and a global vision to ensure covering all =
possible effects. As I said before, I'm pro-GE, hence I try to see from =
all sides to have a more objective opinion.
Well, the point is that there's no simple answer regarding pros and cons =
of GE.
Just a thought (or two). Best Regards.
Alejandro
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| Message 17 |
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Subject: Re: silt clogging water lines
From: "TGTX"
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:20:38 -0600
Gordon, you wrote:
> My suggestion would be a settling basin followed by a disc type filter
such as
> the Arkal and the use of emitters with large flow paths. Some of the
> "sediment" you mention in the lines may be bacterial slime due to the
high
> nutrient levels in the water.
Coarse particles can be removed with a cascade type filter sold by
Greenlink out of North Carolina. I have not evaluated these...so if anyone
knows more, please let me know about them.
One thing I might suggest on the settling basin is to experiment with an
inclined plate settler, which effectively compresses the volume and area
required of a settling basin...to accomplish the same amount of particle
sedimentation. They are very effective in removal of solids and require
little maintenance. It consists of several inclined plates in a
series...along a raceway basin...it reduces turbulence, induces upward
laminar flow of the water, and promotes settling of particulate matter.
The plates suspended above the bottom of the basin and are inclined at
about a 55 degree angle or so...Keeton Industries claims their models can
"remove on an average of 80% TSS larger than 70 microns and 55% of TSS
larger than 1.5 microns"
Their claim about the 70 micron particulate removal I can pretty much
accept...but the 1.5 micron claim I am having difficulty with...I mean, we
are talking on the scale of bacteria sizes here....for gravity settlment
that is very hard to believe at any reasonable flow rate.....Surely, don't
they really mean 15 microns? And this really depends on the specific
gravity of the particulates in question...
Gordon, can you point me to references on the Arkal disc type filter,
please?
Thanks
Ted
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| Message 18 |
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Subject: RE: Genetically Engineered Plant Question.
From: doelle
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 09:29:13 +1000
Thanks Alejandro. I am with you, as I am also for RESPONSIBLE genetic
engineering helping people and not helping only your pocket.
Best wishes
Horst
At 10:20 AM 26/03/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Ted:
>
>Allthough I'm all for responsible genetic engineering, I think Horst
answered your question. The problem here, with your example, is that you
can take the right genes to make the plant or anything else for that matter,
useful, that's what GE does, but first scentists have to have a complete
and perfect understanding of all the genetic material of the plant.
Second, as Horst pointed out, there has to be extensive testing, etc.
Thorough testing is extremely important.
>Now, the difference with modified plants and animals (but especially
plants) and say, vaccines, is that you cannot predict the ecological impact
or latter modifications of the organism when accidentally ending up in an
ecosystem. Let's asume, using your example, that this plant get's
accidentally introduced in what would have been its natural habitat, and it
competes and wipes out the original organism from that niche. Let's imagine
that there's a bug that can eat only the natural specie, so it dissapears
from that place, and so does the lizard that eats that bug, and so forth.
Then again, maybe nothing bad will happen, but we cannot always predict this
sort of things. Again, to me testing is one of the main issues, and a
global vision to ensure covering all possible effects. As I said before, I'm
pro-GE, hence I try to see from all sides to have a more objective opinion.
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
|
