Aquaponics Digest - Sat 04/03/99
Message 1: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics
from Jim Sealy Jr
Message 2: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics
from Jim Sealy Jr
Message 3: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics
from Jim Sealy Jr
Message 4: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 5: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 6: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 7: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics
from Gordon Watkins
Message 8: Re: Genetic engineering
from "KevinLReed"
Message 9: Re: Genetic engineering
from "TGTX"
Message 10: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics
from "Sam Levy"
Message 11: Re: Genetic engineering
from William Evans
Message 12: Re: Fight Gas Prices
from Mike Miller
Message 13: Re: Fight Gas Prices
from Jon Hays
Message 14: Re: Fight Gas Prices
from "Wendy Nagurny"
Message 15: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics
from "Uwe Bruenjes"
Message 16: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics
from Jim Sealy Jr
Message 17: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 18: Re: Aquaponics without eating the fish..
from Jim Sealy Jr
Message 19: Re: Genetic engineering
from Dave Miller
Message 20: Re: Gravel beds (was Tomato Varieties)
from "William Brown"
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| Message 1 |
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Subject: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics
From: Jim Sealy Jr
Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 02:08:38 -0600
Hi Trudy,
The other one is the common green sunfish (Lepomis cyanellus).
You should have those in Florida, but you can also get a decent cross
using the redear, or shellcracker (L. microlophus), and the warmouth, or
goggleye (L. gulosus), but with less spectacular results.
Jim
JobieEagan@webtv.net wrote:
>
> Thanks, Jim. And Ken has the Ga. giants. Are there any such thing in
> Fl.? We certainly have bluegills, but I haven't heard of the other one.
> Trudy
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| Message 2 |
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Subject: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics
From: Jim Sealy Jr
Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 02:16:52 -0600
Hi Wendy,
Well, that's a different sort of question. The bream don't _require_ the
high temps, but bream can handle and do grow much faster at the higher
temps, which is reasonable since they generally are known to frequent
sunny shoals in the wild and temps there can get down right hot. That's
the beauty of the bream; in winter, if you want to run a less energy
intensive operation, you can let the temps drop some, while the solar
collectors are coasting, without loosing fish. You'll just have a
decreased metabolic rate, thus less waste products, so you might need to
add worm castings as a supplement. I killed off ~1000 fingerlings
experimenting with adding commercial hydro mixtures, yet when I've tried
adding too much castings I've only managed to muddy the water. I'm
planning to see just how much nitrate they can stand soon, and that
should take a lot since I have seen wild bream do well in cow ponds
where the ammonia levels would knock you over.
Oh, on the testing.. I'm doing that in plastic 55 gal barrels ($5 each).
Take one and cut it lengthwise and you get 2 plant beds, put the fish in
another, drop in a cheapie fountain pump and plug into a simple timer.
Use a self priming siphon (*) to return the water to the fish tank.
Total cost: $60 and you're in business. At the other extreme, I've
finally lined up the financing to build my dream house set-up complete
with 30 store bought solar panels and 12'x50'x5' (~20,000 gal) raceway
in the attached greenhouse, so I hope hybrid bream will be on a lot more
menus soon.
I'm having good luck now running my tanks at 80F. I hope to get table
size fish (12 - 16 oz) in 6-8 months once I get the bugs worked out and
have year round growth and tweak the feed rates. Right now, we taper off
feeding some in winter outdoors and didn't lose many fish even with as
much as an inch of ice on top using 4 foot cages.
Talking about experimenting.. I'm trying something different (for me at
least) with plants too. I'm using some plastic mesh trays of perlite for
the plants so I can lift out root, medium and all, then toss the root
clump on a drying pile, then run it through the same separator I use for
worms. The medium falls through and the roots go on the compost pile.
Then I'll run the medium over a sand screen to remove all the small
pieces while retaining the good medium. Also, I won't have to dig in all
that gravel and I can automate some of the planting and harvesting
process.
My extension agent told me aquaponics was too energy and labor intensive
to compete with our conventional ponds and greenhouses.
I'm planning to prove him wrong.
Jim
(*) = A long while back, someone posted an URL explaining Archimedes'?
siphons, but I've lost it now. They're what makes a flush toilet work.
Closest example I can find is at:
http://guernsey.uoregon.edu/~phdemo/demo/Fluid_Mechanics/FM-Hydraulics.html#
Tantalus
Cup -- siphon Vase
Wendy Nagurny wrote:
>
> > They should make a very good drop-in replacement for Tilapia in
> >aquaponic systems, and don't suffer from some of the legal restrictions,
> >overseas competition, and consumer recognizability questions Tilapia
> >present in some areas of the US.
> >Jim
>
> Would they? I would think the temperature requirements would be different
> for tilapia and a bluegill/sunfish cross since tilapia are tropical and the
> others are temperate.
>
> B.T.W. welcome back, Jim.
> Wendy
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| Message 3 |
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Subject: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics
From: Jim Sealy Jr
Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 02:19:29 -0600
Hi Ken,
The big ones take about 2 1/2 years of steady feeding. The biggest I've
seen weighed over 4 pounds and was caught about 4 years after we stocked
that pond. This was before we started using the cages. I have a pic
around here somewhere of the 4 pounder and will post it if I can turn it
up. I have a 1 foot ruler laid across that one, with fish hanging over.
We raise them to such large sizes for our trophy ponds (entrance fee
based). I'm still trying to raise some trophy bass (12+ lb.) in a
similar set-up with poor results. I had my first experience with hybrid
bream about 10 years ago. We stocked our first trophy pond with hybrid
bream and Florida hybrid largemouth bass.
I'm in north MS. I'm not sure if MS was ahead of everybody else or if
it's just that I'm more familiar with our fish, but these fish are
common here. This hybrid and a few other crosses should be available in
most states.
The F-1 hybrid (first generation) is what you want to raise. These fish
are not sterile but run about 80-90% male and do not breed true, but in
cage or tank culture that's not a problem since they don't seem to
attempt breeding in these environments.
Maybe I won't be the only one growing hybrid bream for long.
Jim
KLOTTTRUE wrote:
>
>
> Hey Jim, did you say 3lb 12 ozs,thats a nice size bream,how long did it take
> to grow to that size? also what part of the country are you in? you're getting
> me excited now,Bream are my All-Time Favorite Fish! Please write soon Ken
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| Message 4 |
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Subject: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 03:46:52 EST
In a message dated 4/2/99 9:07:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
JobieEagan@webtv.net writes:
<< I'm sure going to look your page over, Ken, but there are alot of miles
between us. I imagine shipping would be costly. Hybrids don't breed do
they? Thanks! Trudy
>>
Trudy,I'm sorry, didn't mean to mislead you,that's not my page. Ken
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| Message 5 |
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Subject: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 03:52:48 EST
In a message dated 4/3/99 3:17:28 AM Eastern Standard Time,
jimsealyjr@who.net writes:
<< Hi Trudy,
The other one is the common green sunfish (Lepomis cyanellus >>
They call them Stumpknockers,in Florida.
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| Message 6 |
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Subject: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 04:46:08 EST
In a message dated 4/2/99 9:47:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,
uweb@megalink.net.mx writes:
<< what about weight gain, taste, feeding habits (omnivore?), etc.?
>>
Hi Uwe, Bream are the best tasting fresh water fish around,in my opinion.They
eat insects,minnows,pellets,dead or alive,and if their mouth was big
enough,they'd eat you, if you fell in the water,they fillet nicely,not many
bones,very similar to Tilapia,in shape and size,but they do not have the
bitter red strip of meat along the lateral line.They are very prolific
breeders,and the only reason they're not as popular a game fish,as other
species is if there is not a very large predator base,they will over populate
very fast,and therefore growth is stunted,farm pond fishing is much better
for large fish,than the large resevoirs,therefore most of the public does not
have access to them,but I've never talked to anyone who didn't agree they are
the best tasting fish,I believe if they were more readily avalible in fish
markets,they would outsell Tilapia. Ken
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| Message 7 |
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Subject: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics
From: Gordon Watkins
Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 08:13:32 -0600
Hi Jim,
I've kept a few hybrid bluegills in my aquaponic system but have not been
particularly impressed with their growth rates compared to tilapia. I don't have
any numbers but I stocked all-male tilapia and bluegills at the same time, about
the same size, and the tilapia grew much faster. Perhaps the water temps (75-80
F.) were a little too high for the bluegills. They sure are fun to play with
though. When kids come over (or I get bored) I'll drop a tiny crappie jig into
the tank and wham!, they'll hit it in a second.
Gordon
> In a message dated 4/1/99 6:19:37 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> jimsealyjr@who.net writes:
>
> << Is anyone else raising hybrid bream rather than tilapia in an aquaponics
> system?
> I'm looking for information on growout times and suggested feeding
> rates.
> Thanks,
> Jim Sealy Jr.
> >>
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| Message 8 |
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Subject: Re: Genetic engineering
From: "KevinLReed"
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 08:52:18 -0800
HAPPY EASTER
Oh please ... genetic engineering does not add or eliminate genes from
the gene pool. If you remove a camphor gene the long term effect is that
camphor is gone from that plant line ... no more no less. It is not possible
to irreversibly lose a " gene" from the "gene pool".
I know it makes some people feel less important but DNA is the dominant
" species" on this planet and it will only allow certain things to occur
within the parameters of it's continued existence. Have you ever wondered
why there is a concurrent evolution of species on this planet? Shared traits
( example - vertebrates with calcium based bones that look very similar)
with no breeding group
getting an unfair advantage is normal on earth ... it's built in to the
creation.
An unfair advantage, like a plant that expresses cyanide gas so every thing
that walks by falls dead and turns to fertilizer, can't occur without other
species
receiving the cyanide antidote. And this will happen very quickly ...
as fast as you can catch a cold.
And I will tell you a secret ... there is natural process that does not
allow
dominant traits or detrimental traits to be owned by one species of life
on this planet. Ask the Library of Congress if you can look at a copy of
Interspecies Genetic Code Transfer by Viruses.
Is a virus alive or dead? Maybe the production of virus it is just a
function
of life? Sometimes things get scary when you don't know how to ask the
right question. ... "Yes Columbus, we understand from your illustration
with
the candle and the orange that the earth is round ... but what will
happen to our ships when you fall off the edge of the world?
Give God some credit for being smarter than us ... and be of good cheer!
A Happy Easter message from Kevin < smile>
Kevin
PS. I am trying to revamp the aquaponics system to work with other
than fish as my fiancee doesn't want to make money from the killing
of live animals ... lol
Keep up the excellent thinking
-----Original Message-----
From: DAVEINBHAM
To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
Date: Friday, April 02, 1999 8:03 PM
Subject: Genetic engineering
>
>In answer to Ted's question...
>
><<< methods, since that is what we do by selective breeding, and since that
> is what we have done for millenia? >>>>
>
> I don't think that is quite what we have been doing for millenia.
>Conventional plant breeding tends to select desirable traits from the
>existing gene pool. It neither creates nor delets molecules from the DNA
>helix in most cases.
>
>The gamble here is only life on earth. Is that important to you ? It is to
>me.
>
>Hope this helps
>Dave Holder
>
>
>
>
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| Message 9 |
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Subject: Re: Genetic engineering
From: "TGTX"
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 11:49:05 -0600
Hi Dave!
Hi Everybody!
It's Saturday morning and I have my big coffee mug and I'm all jacked up
and back in the saddle!
> In answer to Ted's question...
>
> <<< methods, since that is what we do by selective breeding, and since that
> is what we have done for millenia? >>>>
>
> I don't think that is quite what we have been doing for millenia.
> Conventional plant breeding tends to select desirable traits from the
> existing gene pool. It neither creates nor delets molecules from the DNA
> helix in most cases.
>
O.K. now we are getting somewhere. I think this is the first response with
real meat on the bones. Dave you have approached the task of addressing
the question(s) that I posted, which are these: 1) Are there differences in
the results of a) snipping out a gene that codes for a cell product by
biotechnological methods (using restriction enzymes, nuclease enzymes,
marker genes, what have you and b) going through generations of plant
selection and cross breeding until you have a variety that, for whatever
reason, no longer produces that cell product? 2) If there are fundamental
differences in the results of using the 2 methods, what are they, and are
the differences or the consequences of the differences DANGEROUS? or
UNDESIRABLE?, and if so, WHY are they so DANGEROUS or UNDESIRABLE?
Before I respond to your point Dave, I must apologize for using the example
that I did because it probably is not a simple or pure enough example.
Maybe my subconscious mind was setting me up....because I just went back
and check some old references....It just popped into my head one day. To
summarize the original point I was making let me backtrack a bit just in
case folks have not been following the thread of this discussion (and who
can blame them for not following it?).
The Aztec Sweet herb produces a compound that is 1000X sweeter than
sucrose, but has no caloric value as sugar does. The raw product or leaf
of the Aztec Sweet Herb cannot be used as a sugar substitute as the herb
Stevia sp. is now used, because Aztec Sweet Herb also produces camphor,
which would have to be extracted from the sweet compound...and so I said,
hey... wouldn't it be a cool thing to remove the camphor for the benefit of
all mankind, yada, yada,..then grow the resulting plant under aquaponic
and/or organic production methods. I asked the question...would organic
activists blow a gasket, weep, wail, tear their robes, and throw ashes on
their heads in lamentations because that evil biotechnology had been used
to select out the part of the genome that produces the camphor, even though
the plant is grown under organic conditions? And if so, why would they
march in the streets with hair shirts over this issue? (By the way, I
consider myself an organic activist. I have the lapel button and everything
to prove it.)
OK... so I used that as the basis for asking the questions. I mentioned
that I went back to check some old references I have on the shelf..Here we
go...Camphor is a product of the organic chemistry of secondary plant
metabolism. It is a terpenoid. All terpenoid compounds are related by a
common origin and structural relationship. They are composed of multiples
of a 5 carbon atom unit - an "isopentyl" carbon skeleton. In early years of
the study of terpenes, the hydrocarbon isoprene was encountered as a
product of pyrolytic decomposition of many of them. Thus, the terpenes
were regarded as being composed of "isoprene units". For this reason,
terpenoid compounds are often referred to as "isoprenoid" compounds.
(By the way, when certain plants in the forest exude certain terpenoids in
the form of aerosols up into the atmosphere, and then sunlight acts upon
them, you can get some pretty severe hydrocarbon air pollution- yes folks
it's reality check time again--trees can cause certain forms of air
pollution. Every heard of the Smoky Mountains? Breathe deep.)
Terpenoid biosynthesis is a parallel, or simultaneous side reaction or a
departure from the primary pathways that lead to certain steroids, fatty
acids etc..The primary pathway starts out with one of my favorite enzymes,
ladies and gentlemen please give hand to.....Acetoacetyl coenzyme A (a
direct gene product) The secondary biosynthetic pathway (actually
pathways- plural) leads first to mevalonic acid (with 6 carbons) which is
the essential and universal progenitor of all terpenoid compounds. The next
major stage results in isopentenyl pyrophosphate, which is the biogenetic
isoprene unit. Its participation in isoprenoid biosynthesis is dependent
upon an enzyme-catalyzed step (enzymes are direct gene products), in which
an isomerase enzyme causes an equilibrium mixture of the isopentenyl and
the dimethylallyl esters to be formed. Dimethylallyl pyrophosphate can act
as an alkylating agent, and the biological alkylation reaction takes place
under the influence and at the surface of yet another enzyme (i.e, another
gene product).
We could go on ad nauseum (as we already have) but the points of importance
here are A) that there are many possible terpenoids that could be formed
along this general pathway...(camphor is one, pinene another, etc) and B)
that the pathway is mediated or catalyzed at several points by several
different enzymes which are true primary gene products...so different genes
are involved.
Enzymes are proteins coded by the nucleic acid (DNA)code in the genome.
The biochemicals such as the 6 carbon mevalonic acid, etc., are not direct
gene products. Therefore, camphor is not a direct gene product, but the
result of many "bifurcations" or pathway "options", with at least several
genes (enzymes) involved at certain steps in the biosynthesis. Any one of
those genes could be a) expressed, or b) removed, or c) masked by another
gene which might to effect the presence, absence, relative abundance, or
type of terpenoids finally produced.
So, I guess I came up with an inappropriate analogy. We are not talking
about a single gene leading to a single cell product. Drat my foggy minded,
aging hide!
Dave, even though I seem to be squirming on the hook of my own making, I
still think I can wrestle my way out of the quagmire of bad analogy and say
that I think we could find a case in which traditional plant or animal
breeding can and often does involve the selection of a strain or variety in
which a particular gene or section of the genome is "gone missing" from
what might be found in the more common wild types, due to natural
mechanisms taking place.
I fully realize that in the traditional practice of plant or animal
breeding we are not physically reaching inside the cell and snipping out
and or pasting in genes, but we are selecting those organisms whose traits
we "prefer" in which case, that event may have already taken place..either
by random mutation, or an error in meitotic development, or whatever
mechanism. Some times in germ cell development, part of a chromosome is
just flat left out, so part of the genome is missing in the resulting germ
cell.
My point was that Nature does this occassionally- it leaves out a gene or a
section of the genome- which causes the offspring of that event to differ
significantly from the rest of the "wild" genome or germ plasm for that
species, and we come along and we happen to see the result of that low
frequency event, and then we select it out of the general population,
isolate it, try to breed it true, and the next thing you know, we have
begun the cultivation of a new variety. Your point is well taken, that
sometimes we select an organism because a trait is present, not absent, but
I hope you see my point as well.
My point was if Nature does this, and a little old lady in Berkenstocks and
turquois beads wearing Patchouli essential oil perfume and sipping
Celestial Seasoning Tea, and who has a keen eye, selects out that event and
begins to cultivate her own favorite variety of orchid, geranium, Tilapia,
corn, or what have you, it is AOK with the organic activists..But if
someone in a lab coat in a research and development division of a big
corporation does exactly the same thing by a different mechanism, then some
people see that as ecocide...and I just dont seem to be honest with myself
and resolve that in my mind all at the same time.
Another thing I dont understand is the claim that when genes are
artificially combined in one organism, that those "foreign" or recombined
genes are prone to become incorporated into the human genome when the human
eats the genetically modified organism. An example of genetic engineering
that sends folks into paroxysms of fear is the "fishberry"
thing...Supposedly, the gene from a fish which codes for glycol production,
and which keeps the bodily fluids in the fish from freezing, has been
somehow spliced into a variety of strawberry...Correct me if I am wrong
here... The purpose of that, I guess, was to impart freeze resistance to
the strawberry fruit. People object to that in one way by claiming that
the fish gene or the fish-strawberry genome runs a risk of being
incorporated into the human genome. How is that supposed to work? Can
someone explain that? I am just asking here.
I have eaten other organisms all my life, and I have yet to see any
evidence in myself or those around me that my genome is now a chimera or
Frankenstein genetic hybrid of all these plants and animals that I ate. If
those genes from my naturally occuring food did not splice themselves into
my genome, why should I worry about GMO genes invading my DNA? So, if
someone could explain to me how genetically modified organism genes are
unstoppable monsters because they were held in a laboratory for a short
while before going back into a cell wall....., but genes found in Nature
are AOK, please hold forth and educate me. I am old, but teachable. What I
do know is that genes can cross the so called "barriers" of species lines
and even genus lines in Nature, without a DNA lab tech being involved. We
saw that with the example of the Azobacter and the Rhizobium trading genes
out in the field, out in the dirt. So if this happens in Nature...are we
to fear EVERYTHING?
Dave, you wrote,
> The gamble here is only life on earth. Is that important to you ? It is
to
> me.
>
Dave, that was a very dramatic statement. Thank you for the histrionic and
rhetorical question - "Do I think life on earth has any importance to me?"
As a father, a biologist, a farmer, and an organic activist with a lapel
button to prove it, what answer might I have to that question? I think it
is very clear that I am concerned about life on earth in very many
different ways, and to different degrees. My concern for life on earth
does not have as its prerequisite total agreement with the party line- all
of the rider amendments and ancillary issues that anti-technological,
anti-science, and anti-intellectual "Environmental Extremism" has on its
agenda
But when I read about or listen to dramatic statements related to the
environment or to the risks of technology, I am often reminded of the film
clip I saw from a newsreel from the 1960s. A campus radical got up on the
steps of the administration building, and as the chanting subsided
somewhat, she proclaimed and exclaimed with the shrillest tones she could
muster that "We are probably breathing the last of the oxygen!".... That
was a classic...I will always remember it as long as I live....I will use
that statement in my kid's education under the course entitled "Clear and
Critical Thinking"
As the ancient Bereans did, I believe we should examine the evidence
"daily, to see if these things (are) so". I believe we should test claims
and ideas and each others statements...test all things in the light of what
we know, or at least do the best we can to ascertain what is most likely,
if we can't prove it straight away, and then be ready for new revelations
as we go along, testing them further and further. I am all for testing each
new genetically engineered product or technique, etc...each one is very
different....they are obviously not the same...they are as different as
there are the number of genes in all the organisms in the world.
Here is a neat example of ecopolitical drama. Someone I know wanted to
illustrate how clean his compost was. He had it analyzed for everything
under the sun. He went to a meeting of "concerned" environmentalists and
community activists. His first slide was of the analysis of his
compost...it showed very low levels of zinc, and some chromium, and some
other elements which commonly occur on the planet earth. There was some
stirring among the crowd....small shudders of fear about "heavy
metals"...whispers of "industrial wastes poisoning the planet"..."Love
Canal"..."Ecological Genocide"....
The next slide was a complete analysis of substance XYZ...at first
mysteriously unidentified...it contained much higher levels of zinc,
chromium, tin, nickel, selenium, copper, and other elements. He asked the
group if they wanted this in their back yard..."No!" shrieked the
crowd....He asked them if they wanted to touch this material "Absolutely
NOT! Protect the Children! Save the Planet!" they howled. When asked if
they would dare injest this material, they nearly fell out of their chairs
in spasms of fear and outrage.
The next slide revealed that the mystery substance was a multivitamin that
he purchased at the local health food store.
Yes Dave, I think any form of technology or human activity is a gamble.
Any form. I dont think we should be reckless with genetic engineering, or
civil engineering, or automotive engineering, or littering, or traffic
violations...
I also think that not using technology is a decision, and the consequences
of not using an entire branch of science or a given technology is itself a
gamble. We do not exist in a vacuum... but if we did, that too would have
its own risks and consequences.
If we do something, it has risks. If we dont do that thing...even if we do
nothing.. we face a different set of risks. Given our present day
circumstances, "not to decide.. is itself a decision". Not doing something
will have consequences. Every path is frought with risks, whether you wear
Birkenstocks, or lab coats. In my case, I have been known to wear both at
the same time...while sipping Celestial Seasonings Tea...I drew the line at
the wearing of turquois beads... and Patchouli essential oil is for my wife
to use.
Yes indeed, Risk is the Mother of All Life. This is Truth.
Dave, this is fun! Thanks for the reply.
Check with ya'll next week. Same Bat Time. Same Bat Channel.
Ted.
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| Message 10 |
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Subject: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics
From: "Sam Levy"
Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 10:52:50 PST
Jim-
What is the minimum temperature that will sustain growth? Are the
hybrids different in this respect from each other and/or the parent
breeds?
It seems to me that I've encountered references to problems of size
variations. Have you encountered this?
Sam
>From: Jim Sealy Jr
The bream don't _require_ the high temps, but bream can handle and do
grow much faster at the higher temps .....in winter, if you want to run
a less energy intensive operation, you can let the temps drop some
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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| Message 11 |
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Subject: Re: Genetic engineering
From: William Evans
Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 10:55:43 -0800
KevinLReed wrote:
>
> HAPPY EASTER
>
> Oh please ... genetic engineering does not add or eliminate genes from
> the gene pool.
Oh really, then how come organic farmers, trying to raise organic crops
, are finding same crops polluted w/ marker genes only carried by the
GE crops? Why are same markers showing up in the wild?
Could it be that pollen drifts on the wind?
Ill take my corn,soybean,cotton seed w/o the RoundUp ready/Bt feature
thankyou.
billevans
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| Message 12 |
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Subject: Re: Fight Gas Prices
From: Mike Miller
Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 13:10:07 -0600
At 15:52 02-04-99 -0600, you wrote:
>
>http://www.methanol.com/ec_sales.htm
>
I think it is only fair to point out that methanol or wood alcohol is
mostly made from natural gas not the distructive distillation of trees.
Farmers of any strip are not going to get any benefit from methanol but the
oil companies would be very happy. The one advantage of grain based
ethanol over synthetic methanol is that ethanol closes the carbon cycle
annually (except to the extent fossil fuels are used in
production/processing). Fossil fuel based methanol puts additional carbon
to the atmosphere and does not just recycling it.
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Subject: Re: Fight Gas Prices
From: Jon Hays
Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 14:22:47 -0700
Methanol has less BTU than ethanol and is very corrosive (methanol). John Hays
At 01:10 PM 4/3/99 -0600, you wrote:
>At 15:52 02-04-99 -0600, you wrote:
>>
>>http://www.methanol.com/ec_sales.htm
>>
>I think it is only fair to point out that methanol or wood alcohol is
>mostly made from natural gas not the distructive distillation of trees.
>Farmers of any strip are not going to get any benefit from methanol but the
>oil companies would be very happy. The one advantage of grain based
>ethanol over synthetic methanol is that ethanol closes the carbon cycle
>annually (except to the extent fossil fuels are used in
>production/processing). Fossil fuel based methanol puts additional carbon
>to the atmosphere and does not just recycling it.
>
John Hays
1903 Pebble Hill Rd.
Carlsbad, NM 88220
1-505-887-0102
ICQ# 765699
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Subject: Re: Fight Gas Prices
From: "Wendy Nagurny"
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 17:15:47 -0500
I just thought of something. A number of years ago, I was using my MIL's
oven. I turned it on to warm up. In a few minutes, there was smoke pouring
out of the vent. She was using her oven to store crackers. I grabbed some
mitts (fortunately she also stored her cookie sheets in the oven) and
carried a flaming box of oyster crackers out of the house on a cookie sheet.
That box burned for over twenty minutes. Flour fires were also a problem in
grain mills.
Has anybody ever investigated using a wheat flour based fuel?
Wendy
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Subject: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics
From: "Uwe Bruenjes"
Date: Sat, 03 Apr 99 12:56:39 PST
Hi Ken,
it's almost time to eat, and you tell me about good-tasting fish! Wel=
l, I just looked up the Spanish translation for "bream", and this fish =
(besugo) also here has a reputation for being very tasty. - Some time =
ago, somebody said that tilapia improves it's taste when you leave it wit=
hout food in salt water for about 2-3 days. Do you think that still so =
bream is better? Just for a comparison.
>From what Jim said so far, it looks like bream grow very fast; now what =
about depredators? If I understood correctly, it's always good to have =
a few of them to get rid of too weak, ill or otherwise inferior individua=
ls. Which (preferrably tasty) species would you recommend to feed on thos=
e bream?
(Hurrying to the dinner table!)
Uwe
----------
> Hi Uwe, Bream are the best tasting fresh water fish around,in my opinio=
n...
(snipped)
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Subject: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics
From: Jim Sealy Jr
Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 19:02:23 -0600
Weight gain is good. Less than 1 year to good filet size
Taste is great.
Feeding habits is omnivore in wild, but readily accepts floating
pellets.
Is in commercial pond culture here, MS.
Jim
Uwe Bruenjes wrote:
>
> Hi Jim and others,
>
> what about weight gain, taste, feeding habits (omnivore?), etc.?
>
> Uwe
> ----------
> > << Is anyone else raising hybrid bream rather than tilapia in an aquaponics
> > system?
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Subject: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 20:12:10 EST
In a message dated 4/3/99 5:51:29 PM Eastern Standard Time,
uweb@megalink.net.mx writes:
<< it's almost time to eat, and you tell me about good-tasting fish!
Well, I just looked up the Spanish translation for "bream", and this fish
(besugo) also here has a reputation for being very tasty. - Some time ago,
somebody said that tilapia improves it's taste when you leave it without food
in salt water for about 2-3 days. Do you think that still so bream is better?
Just for a comparison.
I've never tried the salt water trick for Tilapia,so I can't give an honest
opinion on that,although all my life,I heard people suggest soaking
everything in salt water,to remove so called wild or game flavors,frankly I
like wild flavors like venison,if I wanted it to taste like Beef,I would just
buy Beef,so I Ignore salt water treatments!
From what Jim said so far, it looks like bream grow very fast; now what
about depredators? If I understood correctly, it's always good to have a few
of them to get rid of too weak, ill or otherwise inferior individuals. Which
(preferrably tasty) species would you recommend to feed on those bream?
>>
Largemouth Bass(Black Bass), or Hybrid Sun Bass will keep them in check,and
are very hardy fish.As a matter of fact,I caught 23 Hybrid and White Bass,3
Crappie,and one big Carp today,so I'm headed to the table also,I'm not going
to remove them from the planet! I'm just going to rearrange their Genetic
make-up!Hey wait a minute,I might have just made an important discovery!
Could this be the missing link Darwin was looking for? Could this be how a
fish leaves the water,walks up-right and turns into a man?Yes! Yes! Yes!
thats it, it wasn't the Ice Age,or a comet,or U.F.O.'s,it was a fisherman. Oh
no! Now we've got another problem! Which came first,the fish or the
fisherman?I'm sorry I got carried away,it must have been,the hydrocarbons,or
maybe the U.V. rays from the Ozone hole,or the Methanol fumes,or the heavy
metals,or the lead poison from my fishing weights,or it may be, one of those
God-Awful Genes got in my Jeans.Now I'll never be able to eat fish again,they
might be one of my cousins! Sorry Uwe gotta go to store now and buy some
GranolaBars to eat with my Hushpuppies. So long from the Twilight Zone Ken
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Subject: Re: Aquaponics without eating the fish..
From: Jim Sealy Jr
Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 21:45:12 -0600
Hey Kevin,
I think there's probably as much (or more) money in ornamental fish as
food fish..
I guess you need to plan on making connections with the retail folks
selling plants for water gardens. Or talk a couple garden centers who
don't sell water plants and fish into starting selling the fish and
plants you'll grow for them.
Jim
KevinLReed wrote:
>
> HAPPY EASTER
>
> A Happy Easter message from Kevin < smile>
> Kevin
> PS. I am trying to revamp the aquaponics system to work with other
> than fish as my fiancee doesn't want to make money from the killing
> of live animals ... lol
> Keep up the excellent thinking
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Subject: Re: Genetic engineering
From: Dave Miller
Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 23:42:34 -0500
Gosh, I wish we didn't have to introduce the windrift/pollen shift from
GE to non-GE crops but as long as we have the topic going, would you
mind farting in another direction away from my wind. Actually this does
bother me more than second hand smoke might (which is a temporary
inconvenience) but now you are affecting my rights toward a certain
purity of my crops without my permission.
Ted, I want say that you have altered my perception greatly, as in maybe
we ARE meant to alter organisms with or without a god (heck we could
very well could be god) but the perception is what is being argued. My
bad mouth prohibits me from saying more.
So assuming that we can research and experiment as anything goes, what
is next? In actuality I appreciate what you wrote, I must of slept that
class, in fact I know I did and so you have presented a clear argument.
I like your style.....
Dave
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«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
A "green" home remodeler
A father of 2 cockatiels
An organic farmer
A veggie drummer/keyboardist
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Subject: Re: Gravel beds (was Tomato Varieties)
From: "William Brown"
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 11:12:14 -0000
Look into the coconut fiber (coir, coco-peat) mixed with perlite etc. We
like to mix coir with sunshine mix 5 at 1:1 for general seeding purposes.
Works better than either one alone.
William Brown mahiwai@cmpmail.com
(aka lettuce@hilo.net)
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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