Aquaponics Digest - Thu 05/06/99
Message 1: Red lettuces
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 2: Humor
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 3: Re: Unsubscribe
from Whichwind
Message 4: drippers
from LC543119
Message 5: Propagation of cuttings
from LC543119
Message 6: Re: Propagation of cuttings
from "vpage"
Message 7: Re: Hi....
from "vpage"
Message 8: Re: Propagation of cuttings
from james.rakocy@uvi.edu (James Rakocy, Ph.D.)
Message 9:
from Dorothy Cady
Message 10: Re: Red lettuces
from "William Brown"
Message 11: Germination and Red lettuces
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 12: RE: Hi....
from "Ronald W. Brooks"
Message 13: RE: Organic Aqua-culture standards in debate by NOSB Lvst Cmte
from "Ronald W. Brooks"
Message 14: RE: Propagation of cuttings
from "Alejandro Gallardo"
Message 15: Re: Germination and Red lettuces
from "William Brown"
Message 16: RE:Yellow leaves
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 17: Re: Hi....
from wesleycoggins@webtv.net (wesley coggins)
Message 18: Re: Hi....
from wesleycoggins@webtv.net (wesley coggins)
Message 19: Re: cabbage worms
from wesleycoggins@webtv.net (wesley coggins)
Message 20: RE: Yellow leaves
from "Ronald W. Brooks"
Message 21: Re: drippers
from "Andrew.D:Aquaculture Advantage"
Message 22: Re: Yellow leaves
from Glen Seibert
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| Message 1 |
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Subject: Red lettuces
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 05:44:16 -0400
Thanks William,
Do you germinate your lettuces in cells and then transplant?
I have had good luck with Cerize here in Florida but it is a little
soft. I'm still cutting from my original seeding of the middle of
February. On a recommendation from Johnny's Florida sales rep I am
trying Redina but the seeds have just germinated so I
don't know yet how it will do here.
Who is your seed supplier for the Revolution?
Adriana
William Brown wrote:
> the summers of Hawaii I keep the lettuce seedlings out of the sun for two
> days before putting them out under plastic.
The two
> reds I grow here in sub-tropical Hawaii are Cerize (red oak leaf) and
> Revolution (red lolla rossa). Both get a very dark burgundy color for me,
> handle well and taste very good.
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Subject: Humor
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 06:02:37 -0400
If you need to lighten up your day, check out this web site for the
Lettuce Preservation Society.
Adriana
http://users.aol.com/dekkal/pages/lettuce.html
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Subject: drippers
From: LC543119
Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 10:13:06 EDT
Adriana, Mark Creaser (son of Gordon Creaser) has been given the rights to
distribute the adjustable dripper in the American continent for use in
hydroponic and aquaponic systems
Gordon
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Subject: Propagation of cuttings
From: LC543119
Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 10:44:18 EDT
In hydroponic greenhouses around the world I have help set up I always
install a mist bench for cuttings this improves root time and plant
production by 70%.My latest article will be on a state of the art plantation
and aquaponics greenhouse in Honduras this will descibe the building of a
mist area for hardwood cuttings and a special cactus for fruit production
Gordon Creaser
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Subject: Re: Propagation of cuttings
From: "vpage"
Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 10:12:57 -0600
Is it still with "Hydroponics"?
Is Dr. James Rackocy on this list or does someone know his e-mail address?
Thanks
VPage
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Subject: Re: Hi....
From: "vpage"
Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 10:17:16 -0600
If you cut out pieces of a yellow slicker, smear them with Tanglefoot and
hang then in your greenhouse you will capture whiteflies-wouldn't it work
for cabbage butterfly?
VPage
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Subject: Re: Propagation of cuttings
From: james.rakocy@uvi.edu (James Rakocy, Ph.D.)
Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 12:50:44 -0400 (AST)
I've been lurking lately, but I want to respond to the some of the ratio
messages when I get time. My e-mail is jrakocy@uvi.edu Jim R.
>Is it still with "Hydroponics"?
>Is Dr. James Rackocy on this list or does someone know his e-mail address?
>Thanks
>VPage
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Subject: Re: Red lettuces
From: "William Brown"
Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 06:39:07 -0000
Yes, I use the 98 cell tray because I can grow them a little bigger before
transplant. We originally used the speedling 200 cell foam trays. but they
get too crowded and suffered too much damage. Many people here prefer the
oasis cubes but I like the plugs so I can add the media to my compost pile
without extra effort.
Stokes has Revolution. They're on the web now. Things are relative, my
Cerize handles well, but we
keep it small to mix with the green lettuce for color. You migh try less
fertilizer, reds are generally smaller and slower growing than other lettuce
so may be soft if fed the same as the green lettuce. Stress will increase
the red color. The redina didn't color up enough for us. Our customers like
that burgundy color. Let me know how it works.
William Brown mahiwai@cmpmail.com
(aka lettuce@hilo.net)
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Subject: Germination and Red lettuces
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 16:05:33 -0400
Willima,
I normally broadcast seed directly into my growing trays so I'm trying
to work out a system for lettuce germination that will give me A.) the
same number of plants/square foot and B.) minimize the added labor
associated with transplanting from cells. I tried seeding into open
bottom trays with cardboard under them until the seeds germinated in
the fridge. This afternoon I placed the trays on top of my perlite and
slipped the cardboard out from under it. Voila! Now the perlite in the
seeding trays is in contact with the perlite in the grow beds and they
can pull up nutrients by osmosis. I only had 2 trays to work with but
it looks like it will work so I'll be buying some more trays to get me
through the summer. When it's time to clear the bed the trays might
facilitate things.
> Yes, I use the 98 cell tray because I can grow them a little bigger before
> transplant.
If I drop the nutrient level my other plants will suffer, perhaps if I
play some acid rock instead of the usual classical music, that will
stress the reds? Or maybe call them names and say mean things?
You might try less
> fertilizer, reds are generally smaller and slower growing than other lettuce
> so may be soft if fed the same as the green lettuce. Stress will increase
> the red color.
I'll let you know how the Redina works out. I'm also going to try some
Cardinale next week. I'm trying to get the burgundy color too but have
not had much luck. I analyzed a case of mesclun from F & M in
California and the use NO green lettuces at all. Just a base of one
type of deep burgundy looseleaf lettuce, mizuna, tatsoi and a little bit
of endive. It sure was pretty but the flavors of the individual
lcomponents were not distinguishable, I assume because it had been in
transit for some time. In another week I hope to have some Bright
Lights Chard to throw in to my mix.
Adriana
Thanks for sharing your hard earned knowledge.
Adriana
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Subject: RE: Hi....
From: "Ronald W. Brooks"
Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 16:23:35 -0400
I think the Cabbage moth is attracted to the color green. I think some type
of green vinyl and tanglefoot. Or I use spunbon floating row covers when I
plant my cabbage type's. Secured in place the moths have no way to access
the plants.
Ron
The One Who Walks Two Paths
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Subject: RE: Organic Aqua-culture standards in debate by NOSB Lvst Cmte
From: "Ronald W. Brooks"
Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 17:26:08 -0400
I have added my comments at each section.
Ron
The One Who Walks Two Paths
-> ORGANIC AQUACULTURE STANDARDS
->
-> Second draft written by Frederick Kirschenmann
->
-> Date Submitted: October 20, 1998
->
-> Purpose: For review and revision by the NOSB Livestock Committee and
-> submission to the NOSB
->
-> AUTHORIZED METHODS AND MATERIALS FOR
-> THE PRODUCTION OF ORGANIC FINFISH and SHELLFISH
->
-> A. GENERAL REQUIREMENTS
-> I. Fish shall be reared in a habitat that meets the basic physiological
-> requirements and behavioral needs of the species being grown.
-> 2. To avoid escapes of domestically reared fish into the wild,
-> and wild fish
-> entering a farm, only enclosed, self-contained, ponds and other
-> facilities
-> will be allowed. Netcages and netpens are not allowed.
->
I see no reason that netcages and netpens should be banned in closed pond
systems. Allowing cages will allow the aquaculterlist flexabilty of raising
different species in the same water source with ease of capture and removal
-> Comment:
-> In pond raised organic aquaculture we feel for each fish rearing pond or
-> series of rearing ponds, there should be a sediment pond or
-> ponds of similar
-> size that the rearing pond water flows into before the water
-> exits to the
-> environment. A similar size sediment pond where fish are not purposely
-> raised offers a degree of protection against environmental
-> contamination from
-> fish wastes, and the more likelihood of preventing disease and parasite
-> contamination of the fish rearing pond. Sediment ponds offer an
-> effective
-> slowing down of the entrance of unwanted fish and wild aquatic
-> livestock into
-> the fish rearing pond(s).
->
Or The use of rock sumps to filter out unwanted fish and wildlife into the
environment Then thru artificial marshes to act as filters before hitting
the waterway's . This then will filter out the nutrients from the pond waste
water . Which if constructed correctly 1/2 an acre should be able to filter
waste water from 4 acres of ponds. If I followed the above and had 2 acres
of ponds I would have to have 2 acres of sediment ponds hard to do if I have
only 3 acres.
-> B. FEED
-> 1. Feed components must be produced in accordance with USDA
-> organic standards for livestock feed.
-> 2. Plant-based feed sources must be from organic production.
-> 3. Only feeds with low fishmeal content are allowed (no more than 20%)
->
#3 makes no sense. Fish eat fish in the wild . this should be removed.
-> Comments:
-> We believe that 1 and 2 above unduly restricts the sources of
-> protein for
-> feeding aquatic livestock. Wild harvest aquaculture products
-> are allowed for
-> crop fertility on organic farms under OFPA and in the private sector
-> certification standards now. The requirement we feel that
-> offers a safeguard
-> from possible feed contamination of wild harvested aquatic
-> products is to
-> require random sample testing from each 2000 pounds of wild
-> aquatic feed.
-> Item 4 below is in contradiction with Item 1 above. Item 1
-> requires all feed
-> to be from "organically produced" sources, while item 4, below, allows
-> non-organically produced feed.
->
-> 4. Fishmeal and fish oil must be sourced from waste products of
-> processed
-> wild, marine fish or from certified organic fish farms. Fishmeal
-> and fishoil
-> obtained from wild caught fish will not be allowed.
->
-> Comment:
-> The last sentence of item 4 does not seem to be logically
-> supportable and
-> places an undue burden on organic aquatic livestock producers.
-> The sentence
-> should be removed.
->
-> 5. Artificial colors, binders and synthetic astaxanthin are prohibited.
-> 6. Antibiotics in feed and extrudents from fishmeal are prohibited.
-> 7. Feed additives, with the exception of minerals, vitamins,
-> phaffia yeast,
-> and enzymes of natural origin, are prohibited.
->
-> Comment:
-> Item 7 should be rewritten to be consistent with OFPA and the
-> National List
-> process. Vitamins and minerals, livestock parasiticides and
-> medicines used
-> in organic aquatic livestock production must be petitioned, reviewed and
-> included on the National List by specific use and application.
-> Under OFPA
-> "Phaffia yeast" and "enzymes of natural origin," unless they are
-> "organically
-> produced" are not allowed to be fed as feed supplements to
-> aquatic livestock
-> producing "organically produced" livestock products. Under
-> OFPA, there are
-> no categories for "feed supplements" or "feed additives" open
-> for inclusion
-> on the National List.
->
-> C. ENVIRONMENT
->
-> 1. Organic fish farms shall be managed to make optimum use of
-> nutrients and
-> minimize waste. This can best be accomplished by creating
-> diversified fish
-> farms, including more than one species and recycling freshwater
-> aquaculture
-> effluents into cropping systems. If aquaculture effluents are
-> not recycled,
-> farmers must employ practices to prevent the discharge of wastewater
-> containing excessive levels of nutrients (e.g. constructing
-> settling ponds,
-> etc.)
->
-> 2. Water used in fresh water farms must meet EPA water quality
-> standards and
-> must be monitored daily for ideal environment (e.g. ammonia,
-> nitrate & oxygen
-> levels, salinity, pH etc.)
-> [We may want to specify water quality standards more
-> specifically and add
-> quality standards for saltwater farms]
Specify the standerds now , not we may want to do it later. If you are going
to specify standards list them out now for discussion
-> 3. Stock densities shall be limited to 10 kg of fish per cubic
-> meter of water.
-> 4. When predator control becomes necessary, only non-lethal
-> means shall be
-> used.
Once again , does this aply to all livestock across the board. If predator
control becomes necessary follow state guidlines.
-> 5. All pipe lines, tanks and water reservoirs shall be free of
-> lead (Pb),
-> impregnating materials, or other substances which have the
-> potential to harm
-> fish, humans or the environment.
->
-> Comment:
-> Items 1 through 5 represent micro-management of organic aquaculture and
-> should be removed from the Draft Recommendation. Stocking rates
-> have not
-> been applied to any other livestock and to retain consistency
-> should not be
-> applied to aquatic livestock. Organic aquatic producers as all organic
-> farmers must conform to governmental regulations related to
-> producing food
-> products. There is no need to further detail those
-> requirements, but at the
-> most only to state certified organic farmers must conform to all
-> government
-> regulations.
->
I agree if 1-5 are going to be enforced it should be enforced for all
livestock producers . get rid of 1-5
->
-> D. ORIGIN, BREEDING OFffFOCK-
-> 1. Organisms that have been genetically manipulated (e.g. triploiding,
-> gynogenesis, etc.) or that have been subjected to hormone treatment are
-> prohibited.
->
-> Comment:
-> Item 1, above, states the general requirements for the production of
-> "organically produced" livestock products found in OFPA and
-> should be found
-> as general statements in the USDA/NOP's Final Rule. They do not
-> need to be
-> reiterated herein.
Clarify , If I cross to related sub species of Tilapia to get all male
offspring ( Nile with Aurea ) it sounds like the resulting fry would be
disallowed. So if beef producers want to cross to types of cattle to
increase yeild and conformation why should they be allowed.
->
-> 2. Fish stocks (eggs, hens, parrs, smolts, etc.) shall be sourced from
-> certified organic fish farms. If organic stock is not available,
-> stock may be
-> procured from conventional farms provided that they meet the
-> requirements
-> under D 1 of this section and that two thirds of their lifespan is under
-> organic management.
->
-> Comment:
-> Allowing one third of the lifespan of aquatic livestock from which
-> "organically produced" products are derived to not be under organic
-> management nor organically fed is inconsistent with OFPA and the NOSB
-> recommendations for raising of organic livestock. Aquatic
-> livestock should
-> be treated similar to poultry, having to be raised under organic
-> management
-> and fed "organically produced" from the day old status.
->
If I buy fingerlings from my supplier at 1 month age or 4 gram size then
take those fingerlings and grow for another 8-9 months and raise them up to
672 grams of weight. as you can see I have had control over 99% of their
food intake. If I have to buy from a certified organic stockman 1 ) there
are none and 2) until there are , you have just kicked me out of organic
certification. You will find more growers willing to go organic if you do
not put impossible hurdles in their way. and as more growers go organic it
will follow that hatcheries will start to go organic to compete.
-> 3. Mutilation is not allowed, including for the purpose of inducing
-> reproduction (e.g. eyestock ablation in shrimp)
->
-> Comment:
-> Consistency in organic livestock production standards should be
-> practiced
-> here. "Mutilation" by tail docking, ear tagging, caponizing, branding,
-> castrating are allowed in organically fed livestock. Why prohibit
-> mutilations only in organically managed aquatic livestock.
->
-> E. HEALTH CARE
-> 1. As in any organic system, health in aquaculture systems shall be
-> maintained principally through prevention. Biosecurity measures
-> to prevent
-> the introduction of disease from the wild (and vice vets) shall
-> be required.
-> 2. The routine use of any synthetic chemical substances, hormones, or
-> antibiotics is strictly prohibited. If such have to be used as
-> an emergency
-> for disease control, the treated fish must be sold as
-> non-organic. Natural
-> vaccines and natural immunostimulants (e.g. yeast, fungi, etc.) are are
-> allowed.
-> 3. Hydrogen Peroxide, sodium chloride, quicklime or potassium
-> permanganate
-> are allowed for parasite control.
->
-> Comment:
-> The first sentence of item 2 above speaking of subtherupeutic
-> use does not
-> need to be restated as these details are stated in OFPA as
-> applicable to all
-> livestock. The second sentence of Item 2 speaks to thereuputic use of
-> medicines, and does not take into consideration the OFPA National List
-> petition process for the use of livestock medicines. It would
-> be a violation
-> for the USDA/NOP to outlaw a standard or process that is
-> mandated to take
-> place under OFPA.
->
-> Item 3 substances, if natural, are all allowed unless prohibited on the
-> National List. All synthetic parasiticides must be petitioned,
-> reviewed,
-> evaluated and included on the National List by specific use or
-> application in
-> aquatic and all livestock.
->
-> Both 2 and 3 should be removed from the Draft Recommendations.
->
-> F. HARVESTING
-> 1. The killing procedure shall be as expeditious and stress free as
-> possible. Methods such as concussion, carbon dioxide,
-> electrocution, etc. may
-> be used as appropriate to the species. Water temperature should
-> be gradually
-> lowered to 4 degrees centigrade prior to killing.
And for what reason. Warm water species having the water temp lowered to
this degree would be stressed and die . Which could affect flavor. Wouldn't
it be more apropriate to get rid of the water temp section and instead go to
a flesh chilling guidline
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Subject: RE: Propagation of cuttings
From: "Alejandro Gallardo"
Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 17:33:19 -0600
Hello guys.
This is a question for James Rakocy and another one for any one.
To James: What is the expected BOD for high density culture of tilapia
(say 76 org/m3)?
To anyone: Does any body know how much area do you need for treating waste
water from a tilapia culture (hiperintensive) with duckweed? Where can I
find such information?
Thanks in advance.
Best regards.
Alejandro
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Subject: Re: Germination and Red lettuces
From: "William Brown"
Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 12:37:44 -0000
Pretty clever system for transplanting. I use net pots at preset intervals
so I need transplant individually. But I hope I get a chance to try your
tray method.
The Cardinale didn't grow well for me. Small, no color (tinged only) and is
very susceptible to powdery mildew. I generally don't grow plants subject
to fungus/mold etc because they end up infecting the non-susceptible ones
too. One exception is Loma a green summer crisp. It's only mildly
susceptible but still causes trouble.
Just read where someone adds iron to darken his green lettuce. I wonder if
it would make reds darker. I don't bother trying to stress the reds, just
an observation through the years. I want reds that grow dark red under
healthy conditions.
We sell our salad mix with no green lettuce in it. People usually buy a
lettuce to go with it. We add red mustards and kales for texture and color
with those other ingredients. The flavors generally are pretty mild even
when fresh, you know, nutty, crunchy, sweet. Throw some sorrel in to add a
lemony flavor, grows good in the tropics.
William Brown mahiwai@cmpmail.com
(aka lettuce@hilo.net)
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Subject: RE:Yellow leaves
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 19:12:33 EDT
Hello everyone,I'm having a problem with the lower leaves turning yellow,and
then turning black and curling up,any suggestions? Also my fish had a
relapse,all dead except two.I'm giving up on Tilapia,going to try Hybrid
Bream,is there any thing I can do to clean my system,to kill the parasites
but not harm the beneficial bacteria? Thanks Ken
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Subject: Re: Hi....
From: wesleycoggins@webtv.net (wesley coggins)
Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 21:03:03 -0400 (EDT)
I'll have to give the yellow sliker and tanglefoot a try.
Wes & Carole
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Subject: Re: Hi....
From: wesleycoggins@webtv.net (wesley coggins)
Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 21:07:17 -0400 (EDT)
Thank you William I bought some Bt today and have applied it to my
Cabbage, we'll see how it works and will keep you advised, thanks again.
Wes & Carole
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Subject: Re: cabbage worms
From: wesleycoggins@webtv.net (wesley coggins)
Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 21:13:48 -0400 (EDT)
Wendy, My Cabbages are inside my greenhouse and I'm told the worms are
from a Cabbage butterfly and I must purchase Bt and this will rid my
Cabbages of these critters.
Thanks,
Wes & Carole
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Subject: RE: Yellow leaves
From: "Ronald W. Brooks"
Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 22:27:56 -0400
Sorry to hear that Ken
Tilapia are generally pretty hardy if you keep them warm.
Correct me if I remember incorrectly , but before you tried Tilapia your
system had bait fish in it
If so and you had a massive parasite kill off on your Tilapia I think your
system is well and truly contaminated
Personally I would sterilize the system thoroughly. I would remove any
plants to a pure Hydroponics system so as not to loose you current crop. Add
20 pounds Super chloride ( pool shock ) to get the chlorine level up past
5.0 to burn off and kill all organics. Let this circulate for 48 hours than
drain and clean then air dry till the smell of chlorine is gone ( another 48
hours ) then rinse well and refill and start over.
if growing in flow type troughs after the crop is harvest clean them the
same way and add to your system .
if gravel beds after harvest flood with water saturated with chlorine and do
as above.
So as not to lose growing time I probably would rig some temporary wood and
4.mil plastic sheet type flow through beds to keep going on the now clean
system and then when the beds are clean and growing anew knock down the
temporary system.
I now this might seem like overkill . But if this outbreak has killed two
different fish crops I would more than likely want to nuke the system this
way
just me
Ron
The One Who Walks Two Paths
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Subject: Re: drippers
From: "Andrew.D:Aquaculture Advantage"
Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 13:07:42 +0930
Dear Gordon and folks,
There are many types of adjustable drippers made in Australia.
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 1999 11:43 PM
Subject: drippers
> Adriana, Mark Creaser (son of Gordon Creaser) has been given the rights to
> distribute the adjustable dripper in the American continent for use in
> hydroponic and aquaponic systems
> Gordon
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Subject: Re: Yellow leaves
From: Glen Seibert
Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 21:07:22 -0700
KLOTTTRUE wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,I'm having a problem with the lower leaves turning yellow,and
> then turning black and curling up,any suggestions? Also my fish had a
> relapse,all dead except two.I'm giving up on Tilapia,going to try Hybrid
> Bream,is there any thing I can do to clean my system,to kill the parasites
> but not harm the beneficial bacteria? Thanks Ken
Hi Ken!
Not into fishies enough yet to give you any insignt into those problems,
but when older leaves yellow and die, its often a Nitrogen deficency:
TRANSLOCATION is a plant's way of dealing with this problem by taking
N out of the older foliage and moving it to the kids near the apical
merestems.
Is your N level up to par?
Glen Seibert
Fullerton College Hydroponics
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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