Aquaponics Digest - Wed 05/26/99
Message 1: Tower growing questions
from Carolyn Hoagland
Message 2: Re: check
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 3: Re: Tower growing questions
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 4: neural gang-lia required
from "Andrew.D"
Message 5: Rockwool and chilli, first try.
from SCHUCH IVAN
Message 6: AW: Hydroponic strawberries
from Ter Spore
Message 7: Re: strawberries
from "Dan Brentlinger"
Message 8: fruit
from LC543119
Message 9: unsubscribe
from James_R._Davis@NOTES.UP.COM
Message 10: Re: Plant spacing
from MUDDTOO
Message 11: Re: AW: Hydroponic strawberries
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 12: Re: neural gang-lia required
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 13: Strawberry economics
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 14: Re: neural gang-lia required
from james.rakocy@uvi.edu (James Rakocy, Ph.D.)
Message 15: Re: Strawberry economics
from "Dan Brentlinger"
Message 16: Re: Tower growing questions
from "Dale Robinson"
Message 17: Re: check
from "Clark Allison"
Message 18: lettuce
from LC543119
Message 19: Questions
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 20: AW: AW: Hydroponic strawberries
from Ter Spore
Message 21: AW: Strawberry economics
from Ter Spore
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 1 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Tower growing questions
From: Carolyn Hoagland
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 01:20:18 -0500
Hi all,
I've been reading about tower growing with interest. I do not understand the
benefit of stacking plants vertically. yes you can get more of them in the GH.
But you still have "X" amount of light coming in - so basically you've just
reduced the light available per plant, haven't you? Particularly if you are
growing in the winter - trying to get that early crop price. This is the time
of year when light levels are often very low anyway. Seems like moveable trays
- are the better bet. The greenhouse is solid with plants, except that you can
roll the trays to make an Isle where ever you need it.
Has anyone had success with vertical systems for anything other than shade
loving plants?
Carolyn
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 2 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: check
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 04:51:20 EDT
Hello,is anyone recieving this message,this is a test,been asking a lot of
questions,getting no answers.......ken
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 3 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Tower growing questions
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 06:16:55 -0400
Carolyn,
If you read the USDA article carefully, especially the yield tables, you
will see how the lower levels produced much lower volumes of fruit. I
think flat is the way to go and rollers make sense except that they are
expensive and nutrient delivery and returns get complicated. Details,
details...
Adriana
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 4 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: neural gang-lia required
From: "Andrew.D"
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 20:25:02 +0930
Dear gang,
Id like to divert 300,000 litres of water, which is currently being used in
a flow through trout farm, into an aquaponics Mecca while polishing up the
water quality to an acceptable level.
The water is currently pumped from a 5 acre watershed dam, through the trout
farm which produces around 20 tonne a year, into a duckpond (300 square
Yards ) and pumped back, without further processing, into the large dam.
Heres the sample in the duck pond , which incidentally acts as a settlement
area.
Susp. solids 4.0 mg/L
BOD 2.2 mg/L
Total Nitrogen 1.4 mg/L N
Total Phos 0.19 mg/L P
In the run off, the levels are higher.
What do you all see as the best practice method using aquaponics in this
situation? We are always talking about small size systems. Here's a real
challenge.I would like to use the KISS (keep it simple stupid) principle.
What would be the best plants to grow and (Adriana, I think you are now
commercially viable) how many per square metre.The length from duck pond to
reservoir is around 100 yards.
Suggestions anyone?
Andrew
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 5 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Rockwool and chilli, first try.
From: SCHUCH IVAN
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 13:05:40 +0200
> Hello all,=20
>=20
> Ive been watching Q's and A's on the list for a while. Ive now taken =
the
> big step, got some rockwool from England ( none available in South =
Africa
> ) and 8 varieties of chilli seeds from Mexico. We are entering winter =
now
> and I have the following questions :
>=20
> 1) current temperatures are varying between 7 and 23 degrees celcuis, =
I
> have read that chillis germinate at approx 23 degrees. It will still =
get
> colder here ( 0=B0C ) and I want to heat the growing meduim. Is it OK =
to
> using a heating mat underneath without a cover over the plants, or do =
I
> need to protect the plant as well?
>=20
> 2) As the sun is in the northern hemisphere, we get 10 to 11 hours
> sunlight, Is this enough light or should I supplement it with =
electric
> light.
>=20
> 3) I have the seeds in rockwool cubes, I dont have any irrigation =
system
> yet. Will it be sufficient to water the seedlings by hand ?
>=20
> 4) Can you practice a "wick" sysrem with rockwool, is it possible to =
drown
> plants? I would like to use a type of an ebb and flow sytem to =
deliver
> nutrient to the rockwool cubes - would this work.
>=20
> Phew, that was a mouthfull, I will appreciate any info.
>=20
> Best regards
> Ivan
>=20
>=20
>=20
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 6 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: AW: Hydroponic strawberries
From: Ter Spore
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 07:00:29 +0200
Hi,
We use bags with 10 or 17 liter peat mixture; length of the bags is =
respectively 40 or 50 cm. Lines are spaced between 1.06 m =
(glassgreenhouse) to 1.2 m (plastic). Under glas we plant in august 15 =
plants/m=B2, grade A+ (diam. 13-16 mm).
We use only a horizontal system for many reasons: ergonomy (picking =
efficiency!!), pest management, climate control, uniformity of =
fertigation, .....
Regards,
Johan
----------
Van: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis =
LaGatta[SMTP:gutierrez-lagatta@home.com]
Verzonden: dinsdag 25 mei 1999 13:58
Aan: aquaponics@townsqr.com
Onderwerp: Re: Hydroponic strawberries
Hi Johan,
Are the peat bags similar to the bags used for tomato culture in the
US? Are the laid horizontally or vertically? What is your planting
density in terms of plants per square foot or cubic foot?
Adriana Gutierrez
Ter Spore wrote:
>=20
> I am surprised seeing the reactions concerning hydroponic strawberry =
farming.
> In Belgium and Holland we started growing strawberries hydroponically =
more than 15 years ago. We started on NFT but in 87-88 most growers =
changed to the productions in containers or in peat bags. More than 90 % =
is grown on peat. At present there are also experiments with rockwool, =
perlite and cocco-fiber.
> Johan Aelterman
> terspore@g-net.be
> Belgium
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 7 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: strawberries
From: "Dan Brentlinger"
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 09:36:43 -0400
Craig & Robin,
The profitable greenhouse vegetable crops, in our opinion, are still the same
old basic salad crops, tomatoes, cucumbers, lettuce, peppers, and herbs. The
key for small growers is to provide unmatched quality and exceptional service
to their accounts. It is important for growers to really promote the fact
that their product is locally grown, not shipped in.
A grower in California, (John Pade & Becky Nelson), use the slogan something
like... "The only border our tomatoes cross is the county line!" Becky
wrote a great article awhile back for our newsletter about their marketing
program. They consistently get well over $ 2.00 a pound wholesale for their
tomatoes, when BC Hothouse tomatoes are selling far cheaper, right beside
theirs! (That article, plus several others on marketing is in the May, 98
issue, Vol. XIV, No. 2, which you can access on our web site, along with
other back issues).
Consumers want to buy locally grown and they want to buy from someone they
know and trust, their neightbor down the road. If you can get that across in
your marketing message it will help. I believe this will become even more
important in the future as the concerns about food safety continue.
Small growers should also consider retailing. If you can sell even a
percentage of your crop at retail, either right from your greenhouse, or
through farmers markets, you can add a significant amount to the bottom line.
Lettuce and herbs offer a good opportunity too. They require more marketing
effort and skills, and generally require going direct to restaurants, etc.,
but the payoff can be excellent.
Hope this helps!
Dan
brent@cropking.com
http://www.cropking.com
Craig & Robin Prince wrote:
> Hello Dan,
> (Crop King)
> Would you be so kind to let us know what the two or three most profitable
> greenhouse vegetables might be. Don't have much experience in greenhouse
> growing. If strawberries won't work what will?
>
> Enjoyed your testimony
> God Bless
> Craig
> P.S. (Thanks for the info on your greenhouses)
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 8 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: fruit
From: LC543119
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 09:55:39 EDT
I was growing strawberries in the south of Spain 40 years ago in hanging
bags,at that time it was very profitable but as the years went by
transportation became cheaper and faster to our present day where over night
shipping has become the norm ,so now strawberries and other berry crops are
not as economical as before you only have to look in the supermarket and you
will see product from Chile to Canada at all times of the year. Dan good to
see you on the list
Gordon Creaser
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 10 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Plant spacing
From: MUDDTOO
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 11:25:16 EDT
Hello Craig, Most lettuce I grow can get as big as 12" around, so I stay w/
12". If you've already cut the holes then maybe you can still use them
until they become too crowded.
Good luck,
joel
In a message dated 99-05-25 23:44:08 EDT, you write:
<< Has anyone tried 4" or 5" spacing with lettuce varieties.
It has been suggested that some leaf types would allow crowding.
How about romaine, buttercrunch. >>
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 11 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: AW: Hydroponic strawberries
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 13:42:10 -0400
Thanks Johan,
Your spacing is approximately 1 plant per square foot. Do you
recirculate your nutrient or run to waste?
Adriana
> We use bags with 10 or 17 liter peat mixture; length of the bags is
respectively 40 or 50 cm. Lines are spaced between 1.06 m (glassgreenhouse)
to 1.2 m (plastic). Under glas we plant in august 15 plants/mē, grade A+
(diam. 13-16 mm).
> We use only a horizontal system for many reasons: ergonomy (picking
efficiency!!), pest management, climate control, uniformity of fertigation,
.....
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 12 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: neural gang-lia required
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 14:02:18 -0400
Andrew,
I seed my beds very densely by broadcast-seeding with a shaker to a
density as high as 2-3 seeds/sqaure inch. That would be between
900-1400 plants/ sqaure meter.
It seems to me that the nutrients in your sample are nowhere near as
concentrated as they were in the USDA study, perhaps because they are
diluted in the duck pond. I don't know if plants can grow at this
nutrient level. If Jim R is lurking he might be able to comment here.
Adriana
"Andrew.D" wrote:
>
> Dear gang,
>
> Id like to divert 300,000 litres of water, which is currently being used in
> a flow through trout farm, into an aquaponics Mecca while polishing up the
> water quality to an acceptable level.
>
> The water is currently pumped from a 5 acre watershed dam, through the trout
> farm which produces around 20 tonne a year, into a duckpond (300 square
> Yards ) and pumped back, without further processing, into the large dam.
>
> Heres the sample in the duck pond , which incidentally acts as a settlement
> area.
>
> Susp. solids 4.0 mg/L
> BOD 2.2 mg/L
> Total Nitrogen 1.4 mg/L N
> Total Phos 0.19 mg/L P
>
> In the run off, the levels are higher.
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 13 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Strawberry economics
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 15:49:29 -0400
Gordon and Dan,
Is it possible that hydroponic strawberries are not profitable for sale
to the wholesale market but might be feasible in a direct-marketing
situation? In my case, with salad mix there is no way I can compete
with California mix selling here in Florida at $3.00 a pound. However
by selling direct to my restaurant customers I cut out the wholesalers.
My customers are delighted to pay me a lot more for fresher, better
product. Not all restaurants are more interested in freshness than they
are in price, you have to seek them out and keep them happy.
Dan do you have any production cost data for strawberries? It could be
that there is some margin for low-overhead small operations who sell
directly to their customers.
Adriana
> I was growing strawberries in the south of Spain 40 years ago in hanging
> bags,at that time it was very profitable but as the years went by
> transportation became cheaper and faster to our present day where over night
> shipping has become the norm ,so now strawberries and other berry crops are
> not as economical as before you only have to look in the supermarket and you
> will see product from Chile to Canada at all times of the year.
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 14 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: neural gang-lia required
From: james.rakocy@uvi.edu (James Rakocy, Ph.D.)
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 15:48:24 -0400 (AST)
Adriana, Let me quote from Adler et al. (Conveyor Production Startegy
Enhances Nutrient Recovery from Aquaculture Wastewater), "Basil and lettuce
removed phosphorus to 0.003 mg/L and <0.001 mg/L, respectively from an
influent concentration of >0.5 mg/L." P was limiting so nitrate-nitrogen
declined only 60% from about 15 mg/L about 2 mg/L for basil and about 5 mg/L
for lettuce (I'm looking at a graphs). When you say total N and P that
includes organically-bound and unavailable (at least temporarily) N and P as
well as dissolved N and P. You might have a chance. You are certainly at the
lower limit and may encounter deficiencies. Jim R.
>Andrew,
>I seed my beds very densely by broadcast-seeding with a shaker to a
>density as high as 2-3 seeds/sqaure inch. That would be between
>900-1400 plants/ sqaure meter.
>
>It seems to me that the nutrients in your sample are nowhere near as
>concentrated as they were in the USDA study, perhaps because they are
>diluted in the duck pond. I don't know if plants can grow at this
>nutrient level. If Jim R is lurking he might be able to comment here.
>
>Adriana
>
>"Andrew.D" wrote:
>>
>> Dear gang,
>>
>> Id like to divert 300,000 litres of water, which is currently being used in
>> a flow through trout farm, into an aquaponics Mecca while polishing up the
>> water quality to an acceptable level.
>>
>> The water is currently pumped from a 5 acre watershed dam, through the trout
>> farm which produces around 20 tonne a year, into a duckpond (300 square
>> Yards ) and pumped back, without further processing, into the large dam.
>>
>> Heres the sample in the duck pond , which incidentally acts as a settlement
>> area.
>>
>> Susp. solids 4.0 mg/L
>> BOD 2.2 mg/L
>> Total Nitrogen 1.4 mg/L N
>> Total Phos 0.19 mg/L P
>>
>> In the run off, the levels are higher.
>
>
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 15 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Strawberry economics
From: "Dan Brentlinger"
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 16:54:14 -0400
Adriana,
You are absolutely right! Actually that is the approach we were taking with
strawberries. We had decided that the profit was not enough to justify
wholesaling to grocery stores, but that the small grower could both retail
direct
to consumer, or sell "wholesale" to restaurants at almost "retail" prices. That
is definitely the right approach to take, and is really what our growing systems
and products are designed for. Again however, production did not justify the
expenses. Our production cost data indicated a far higher cost of
production than
even retail prices would cover.
Obviously, the trick is to increase production and that is where everyone
seems to
get stopped in their tracks.
--
Dan Brentlinger
brent@cropking.com
http://www.cropking.com
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 16 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Tower growing questions
From: "Dale Robinson"
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 16:34:02 -0500
I put my 4x8 ft "trays" on sawhorses. I suppose you could make smaller
trays and just slid them along the sawhorses to make room for harvesting.
If the trays are less then 6 ft. long you could harvest from both ends
without much trouble. Leaving one foot every 6 feet is not all that bad
either.
ADM uses trays with rollers but they have a separate room for harvesting and
cleaning up the trays. Lots of algae. Feeder tubes are easily placed in
the trays after your done moving them around.
Your right about the towers having light problems. You may have better luck
with a short stack of trays(A wall garden. 4 to 6 inches wide). Grow the
plants out each side and stagger them to give the roots room to grow. The
top tier can grow straight up. the lower tiers can be a shade loving
plant. Put reflector material on the floor(white painted surface) to
reflect the light back up to the plants. Space at about 4 feet between
rows(north to south orientation). Keep in mind that the plants are going to
grow outward so a 4 foot space will become 2 feet when the plants reach full
growth. A short stack may be 3 or 4 tiers. The trays could be placed so
that the first tier is about knee level and the highest tier about eye
level to make harvesting easier.
Go ahead and experiment with several different systems and go with the one
you like best. There was one outfit that grew lettuce on a conveyer system.
The conveyer system spaced the young plants close together and spaced them
out until they were full grown. The plants were harvested at the end of
the conveyor system. It was an expensive system to get started but I'm sure
they thought it was a good use of space and artificial lighting. They went
belly up over the cost of lighting however. You could do the same thing
manually but it may be too labor intensive.
Hopes this helps.
Best regards
Dale Robinson
mwhydrroponics@worldnet.att.net
http://home.att.net/~mwhydroponics
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 17 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: check
From: "Clark Allison"
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 18:25:39 PDT
Ken,
I have asked some questions also. Still have not received any replies.
>From: KLOTTTRUE
>Reply-To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
>To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
>Subject: Re: check
>Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 04:51:20 EDT
>
>Hello,is anyone recieving this message,this is a test,been asking a lot of
>questions,getting no answers.......ken
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 18 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: lettuce
From: LC543119
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 21:26:09 EDT
Christine, In all our raft systems we use a 288 plug tray with a sterile grow
mix ,when the plant is about 2 inches high we transplant into float board ,at
this stage the root has balled and very little grow mix gets into the system
,also Oasis plugs can be used,
Gordon Creaser
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 19 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Questions
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 20:57:10 -0500
At 06:25 PM 5/26/99 PDT, Clark wrote:
>Ken,
>
>I have asked some questions also. Still have not received any replies.
>
Clark and Ken - Probably not intentional - it's a very busy time of year.
Would you repost your questions?
I'd be happy to take a stab at any I can help with.
Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 20 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: AW: AW: Hydroponic strawberries
From: Ter Spore
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 04:11:34 +0200
We work with 25 % drain. We are planning to re-use the drain with a =
separate stock solution for the hydroponic strawberries outside.
Johan
----------
Van: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis =
LaGatta[SMTP:gutierrez-lagatta@home.com]
Verzonden: woensdag 26 mei 1999 19:42
Aan: aquaponics@townsqr.com
Onderwerp: Re: AW: Hydroponic strawberries
Thanks Johan,
Your spacing is approximately 1 plant per square foot. Do you
recirculate your nutrient or run to waste?
Adriana
> We use bags with 10 or 17 liter peat mixture; length of the bags is =
respectively 40 or 50 cm. Lines are spaced between 1.06 m =
(glassgreenhouse) to 1.2 m (plastic). Under glas we plant in august 15 =
plants/m=B2, grade A+ (diam. 13-16 mm).
> We use only a horizontal system for many reasons: ergonomy (picking =
efficiency!!), pest management, climate control, uniformity of =
fertigation, .....
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 21 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: AW: Strawberry economics
From: Ter Spore
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 04:15:47 +0200
------ =_NextPart_000_01BEA7F9.A14065C0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
We sell directly to our cooperative. Most of the crop is exported from =
Belgium to Germany and Sweden. Our average price yearround is between =
2.5 and 3 Euro/kg. Our break even price is 2.1 Euro/kg.
Johan
----------
Van: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis =
LaGatta[SMTP:gutierrez-lagatta@home.com]
Verzonden: woensdag 26 mei 1999 21:49
Aan: aquaponics@townsqr.com
Onderwerp: Strawberry economics
Gordon and Dan,
Is it possible that hydroponic strawberries are not profitable for sale
to the wholesale market but might be feasible in a direct-marketing
situation? In my case, with salad mix there is no way I can compete
with California mix selling here in Florida at $3.00 a pound. However
by selling direct to my restaurant customers I cut out the wholesalers.=20
My customers are delighted to pay me a lot more for fresher, better
product. Not all restaurants are more interested in freshness than they
are in price, you have to seek them out and keep them happy.
Dan do you have any production cost data for strawberries? It could be
that there is some margin for low-overhead small operations who sell
directly to their customers.
Adriana
> I was growing strawberries in the south of Spain 40 years ago in =
hanging
> bags,at that time it was very profitable but as the years went by
> transportation became cheaper and faster to our present day where over =
night
> shipping has become the norm ,so now strawberries and other berry =
crops are
> not as economical as before you only have to look in the supermarket =
and you
> will see product from Chile to Canada at all times of the year.
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
|
