Aquaponics Digest - Sun 07/25/99
Message 1: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming
from Bagelhole1
Message 2: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 3: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming
from "Brett Deiser"
Message 4: misc questions and intro
from "tbird2"
Message 5: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming
from Bagelhole1
Message 6: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming
from PDOSSJR
Message 7: Re: misc questions and intro
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 8: Ceviche
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 9: How are you doing?
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 10: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming
from "Jim Sealy Jr."
Message 11: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming
from Bagelhole1
Message 12: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming
from "Brett Deiser"
Message 13: Re: Tom's aquaponic deadline
from Carolyn Hoagland
Message 14: Re: Tom's aquaponic deadline
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 15: Re: misc questions and intro
from atkindw@cwjamaica.com (david w atkinson)
Message 16: Re: Tom's aquaponic deadline
from atkindw@cwjamaica.com (david w atkinson)
Message 17: Re: How are you doing?
from Jon Hays
Message 18: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming
from "Marcy L. Nameth"
Message 19: Re: Tom's aquaponic deadline
from Bagelhole1
Message 20: Re: misc questions and intro
from "tbird2"
Message 21: Re: Tom's aquaponic deadline
from Bagelhole1
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| Message 1 |
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Subject: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming
From: Bagelhole1
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 04:22:10 EDT
Dear Griz,
I think your concern is valid about the iffy quality of the
project. But first you must understand, that I recommend that people
inventory/stockpile as appropriately as they can and then try to become as
self-sustainable as possible. One does not preclude the other.
The challenge appears daunting and that is why the response must be great. So
far I have received great info about how to fishfarm/greenhouse on this list,
and this is where my hopes lie. I can only make it happen through the
collaboration of others. Its not about me, its about global collaboration to
lay the groundwork for a sustainable world.
As I go along, what I need to do becomes clearer, then lacking the necessary
info I ask the Universe to provide what I need to know. Ron, who walks two
paths, spoke up and helped me refocus my path. Now, I need to know what I
wrote below:
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| Message 2 |
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Subject: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 06:27:38 -0400
Tom,
If you're serious about food production I suggest you give up the idea
of growing individual plants in soda bottles. A good growing system
maximizes the yield per square foot and the soda bottle approach is very
limiting. You should plan to grow in beds with some sort of media in
them which gives you the ultimate flexibility for plant spacing. Paula
and Tom use gravel beds, I use perlite but don't have fish in my
system. Others have used sand or even styrofoam sheets floating on the
water. Some people make the beds out of plywood with liners in them.
These are typically 4' wide by 8' long. Mine are made from aluminum
roof pans. There is no single solution.
Adriana
I was hoping for some more help. I am constructing a low-cost
> greenhouse with trenches around the perimeter to grow tilepia and organic
> vegetables, in vertical structures made out of 2 liter plastic pop bottles to
> hold the plants, with tubing going thru the bottles to the fish water and
> back again.
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| Message 3 |
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Subject: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming
From: "Brett Deiser"
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 08:01:29 -0500
>I am trying to be a model for low-tech sustainability. I am under a
>non-profit and am working to create community food security. Also, the
>project is developing an ever-improving list of low-tech ideas/methods to
>share over the internet to help individuals become relatively
>self-sustainable before 2000 and to be a model for their neighborhoods.
Your to late at this point IMHO its only 6 months away.
>My take on y2k is that no one can tell what is going to happen, but the
>possibility that it could be big is not remote enough to ignore. I think
>there is a lot of denial around.
The worste thing that I think is going to happen is that the stock market
will take a TEMPORARY dip then all the people who bought generators and
dried food will be looking to unload stuff at prices very much lower than
the purchase price they paid.
Keep your eye on the ball, your nose to the
grindstone, an ear to the ground, and your
shoulder to the wheel.
Now try to work in THAT position!
Brett :-}
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Subject: misc questions and intro
From: "tbird2"
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 10:37:25 -0500
Hi,
My name is Mary, and I just usually read the posts, stockpiling the things I
want to keep for that date when we will begin our own.
In Mexico, they used to have floating gardens, and I was wondering if anyone
knows what they used, and how?
Also, I have been offered a used greenhouse for sale. It is 20 by 50, with
only the metal supports---no heater, visquine, etc. What should I expect
to pay for this?
We first saw this at Epcot, where they have the aquaponic---tilapia,
veggies----set up, and it was beautiful. But of course, I don't have the
funds of Disney . Do they ever have any input to you all, or has anyone
ever talked to them? They do have an all day background tour of their set
up, but I couldn't bring the kids to something like that. Oh , well.
Thanks for your help----I hope to get to Missouri one day to see this is
action!
Mary
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Subject: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming
From: Bagelhole1
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 11:56:48 EDT
In a message dated 7/25/99 11:25:43 AM, gutierrez-lagatta@home.com writes:
< greenhouse with trenches around the perimeter to grow tilepia and organic
> vegetables, in vertical structures made out of 2 liter plastic pop bottles
to
> hold the plants, with tubing going thru the bottles to the fish water and
> back again.
>>
Dear Adriana,
Thanks for your response. But, I have the feeling
that it may be hard for you to visualize the plastic bottle idea. Because
this technique is to utilize the maximum amount of space. Once I get it up,
I'll post a photo. I am aware of the slanted bed technique, where the fish
water, thru perforated tubing at one end, enters the soil/perlite /whatever
and drains thru until it falls out, oxygenated and clean back into the
fishwater.
Kind Regards,
Tom O
http://bagelhole.hypermart.net
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Subject: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming
From: PDOSSJR
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 12:41:19 EDT
In a message dated 7/25/99 8:03:32 AM Central Daylight Time,
bdeiser@missouri.org writes:
<< The worste thing that I think is going to happen is that the stock market
will take a TEMPORARY dip then all the people who bought generators and
dried food will be looking to unload stuff at prices very much lower than
the purchase price they paid. >>
I can't imagine why anyone who owned a generator and dried food would want to
sell them after the first of the year. It is insurance. If you go through a
hurricane season without a storm you don't cancel your insurance and you are
certainly not disappointed that there wasn't any damage done.
You are right about one thing the stock market will almost certainly that a
dip. Y2K is very real. No one out there is saying that the rest of the world
will be alright. Like it or not we are very dependent on the rest of the
world. Many experts right here in the US are saying that people are not
taking this serious enough. They are talking but not many are listening. Too
much good press coming from the government in hopes of averting a panic. This
is the real problem. They can't really tell us to prepare without the risk of
a panic.
When I first heard of Y2K, about 2 years ago, I thought that it was some
kind of hoacus poacus (spelling) because of the millinium roll over. It is a
fixable problem. It is, given enough time and money. Computers and imbedded
chips don't care that a new millinium is about to begin except for the fact
that they were programed in a way that makes it a problem. You have to
understand the interconnectivity of everything to really understand the
problem.
When the Red Cross tells you that it would be a good idea to stock up a week
or two of supplies, when the people at Global Solutions (an international IT
consulting corp.) says it would be a good idea to stock up 90 days worth of
supplies, for my families sake I have better listen. It would be
irresponsible of me not to. Then hope that I don't need it.
Not many people will know, if this turns out not to be a problem, just how
close we came to having a total break down. It will only be because a few
people raised enough of a stink and an awful lot of people worked very hard
day and night to fix a problem that many experts said there wasn't enough
time to fix. Did they make it? We'll have to wait and see.
Sorry for the rant but if this turns out to be a problem not much else will
matter.
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| Message 7 |
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Subject: Re: misc questions and intro
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 13:52:16 -0400
Hi Mary, welcome to the group.
About stockpiling information, be sure to download it to a disk. I had
some wonderful information, almost a year's worth, on my hard drive
before it crashed. It brought home the need to back up files.
> My name is Mary, and I just usually read the posts, stockpiling the things I
> want to keep for that date when we will begin our own.
My landlord just sold a 30x100 foot metal greenhouse for $400. It has
end panels but no fans, etc. Three guys worked all day to dismantle it
this week and I would guess they have at least one more day to finish.
Set-up will take a good couple of days as well. Think long and hard
abut buying a used one. There is a lot of effort required.
> Also, I have been offered a used greenhouse for sale. It is 20 by 50, with
> only the metal supports---no heater, visquine, etc. What should I expect
> to pay for this?
Adriana
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Subject: Ceviche
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 14:04:36 -0400
> There are as many ceviche recipes as there are households. Let's hear some
> others...
Victoria,
Thanks for the report on the VI aquaponics course. I would have loved
to have been there. I love ceviche and have tried many different
recipes. I finally settled on this one as the very best.
CEVICHE
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1. Cut 1 1/2 - 2# mild fish into 3/4" cubes
2. Cover it with the juice of 2 large lemons and 2 limes (if you can
get ahold of some calamondins, sort of like a tiny sour orange, throw in
the juice of 6-8 of them)
3. Add to the fish:
1/2 cup finely chopped onion
1 garlic clove, chopped
1 fresh jalapeņo, sliced
1 tsp salt
4. Refrigerate fish for 2-4 hours
5. In a separate container mix and refrigerate
1 medium tomato, chopped
1/2 onion, sliced
1/4-1/2 cup chopped cilantro
Lemon/lime juice to cover
6. Just before serving combine the fish and the tomato mixtures.
Keeping the two separate until this point allows the tomato to retain
its flavor better, providing a great contrast with the fish.
7. Serve on crackers. Yum!
Option: Use shrimp or scallops instead of fish.
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| Message 9 |
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Subject: How are you doing?
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 14:08:04 -0400
Hi Gail,
How are your ailments doing? I just got back from a week at the beach
and feel somehat relaxed and ready to tackle life and business again.
The beach where we stayed is just 30 minutes from here so I went back
and forth to the greenhouse every day. It was a nice change of pace.
I just introduced my lacewings and trichogramma (for army worms) into my
greenhouse this week. Other than staying away from pyrethrins are there
any precautions?
Adriana
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| Message 10 |
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Subject: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming
From: "Jim Sealy Jr."
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 12:58:36 -0500
Hi Tom,
I tend to avoid Y2K survival discussions, but I was wondering: For how long
a term
are you talking about needing to provide food with your system? For how many
people?
If you're talking years (catfish growth cycle from eggs to table), or even
months
(many vegs) then you're going to need a much larger greenhouse than you've
described
if you plan to feed a family full time from it, much less have any surplus.
During the ice storm of '94, we were without grid power for 6 weeks at the
farm and
survived well enough, but only because we were able to purchase replacement
fuel.
We've since increased our fuel capacity to a 6 month supply, but only due to
economies of scale in purchasing, rather than a need for that kind of long term
supply. I'm also expecting to pick up some good deals on generators about
March of
2000.
As an aside: Our worst case plan for Y2K involves our farms full production
being
gone in 12 weeks And I'm talking about not just our family's combined 60
acres of
catfish, 700 head of cows, and 22 greenhouses (11,000 sq.ft.) of vegs, but
all local
production within 50 miles of Memphis. This is term is due to expected
demand from
the community rather than long term production capacity. We expect that if
anarchy
comes, we'll need an army to defend the property (ThunderDome scenario),
which isn't
likely.
Jim
Bagelhole1 wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I was hoping for some more help.
>
> Tom Osher
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Subject: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming
From: Bagelhole1
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 14:27:54 EDT
In a message dated 7/25/99 5:42:18 PM, PDOSSJR writes:
<>
Not to misdirect the purpose of this list-serve, because I am interested in
fishfarming alot. But y2k is also my specialty. Just remember, no one can
know what percent will not be compliant before 2000, and there will be some,
since its impossible for them all to be fixed in time, and no one can know
what percent could cause collapse of the infrastructure. The possibility of
infrastructure collapse is not remote enough to ignore. So its prudent to
inventory/stockpile, and make yourself as self-sustainable as possible, and
to be a model for your neighborhood, because you don't want to be the only
one prepared if things get heavy, you want everyone around you to be equally
prepared.
Good luck,
Tom O
http://bagelhole.hypermart.net
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Subject: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming
From: "Brett Deiser"
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 15:49:07 -0500
>I can't imagine why anyone who owned a generator and dried food would want
to
>sell them after the first of the year.
The thought being that most people are preparing for the end of society
as we know it and this won't happen. the only reason for the stock to dip is
imagination and nothing more. the y2k "bug" wil be no worse than any other
glitch that computers have had or ever will have. The majority of people
probaly won't even know about most of the glitches that occur,power won't
fail world wide, prison gates won't open, and pace makers won't stop
working. life will go on as it has when every other dooms day predition has
been made.
>Too much good press coming from the government in hopes of averting a
panic.
A panic based on impresions and not on facts.
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Subject: Re: Tom's aquaponic deadline
From: Carolyn Hoagland
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 18:26:25 -0500
Tom,
I agree with grizzly. Your aquaponics experiments should proceed after you have
aquired enough rice/beans/dried greens and vitamins to assauge your concerns.
Carolyn
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| Message 14 |
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Subject: Re: Tom's aquaponic deadline
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 20:21:51 -0400
Ditto,
If your objective is to survive Y2K you can't gamble with untried
systems. So you should provide adequate stored food for 3-6 months. In
the interim you can set up your aquaponic system and work the bugs out.
If you want an aquaponic system up and running in the least amount of
time you should go "turn-key" following plans such as Paula and Tom have
to offer. Later you can experiment with different variations. Even if
you go with an existing system, no two greenhouses or cities are exactly
the same. What works well in one doesn't always work well in another.
A good model of sustainability requires adequate planning and testing of
a prototype system, something you don't have the time for if you're
serious about the need to plan for survival. I've had my hydroponic
system up and running for 6 months and every month has brought a
different challenge and a new learning experience. It would be really
scary if my family had to survive on it given all of the unknowns.
However, I feel much more qualified to do it now than I did 6 months
ago.
A couple of other thoughts. 1. Have you checked with zoning and fish
and wildlife regulators regarding tilapia species allowed and the
approval process required to set up this type of operation? You should
do so sooner rather than later as there are different restrictions in
different states. 2. Growing Edge Magazine published an excellent
article in the last 2 months with specific recommendations for survival
gardening. It listed the amount of square footage and number of plants
of different varieties required to provide a balanced diet for a family
of four. They specifically recommended that grains be purchased since
it is more cost-effective to buy rice and wheat than to raise it
hydroponically.
Adriana
> I agree with grizzly. Your aquaponics experiments should proceed after
you have
> aquired enough rice/beans/dried greens and vitamins to assauge your concerns.
>
> Carolyn
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Subject: Re: misc questions and intro
From: atkindw@cwjamaica.com (david w atkinson)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 19:26:03 -0500
Hi Mary,
Have you ever thought of building a greenhouse?
I cannot help you with prices, but consider what you will pay for the shell
and then add the cost to get the basic infrastructure in place to get the
buidling to a stage where it can function.
Compare the cost to building one yourself. I found some plans over the
internet where you can build one yourself, or with the help of friends, if
your are not do-it-yourself inclined.
As soon as I can the address in my archives, I will post it to the group.
Maybe others out there in the group have some ideas too.
David (from Jamaica West Indies)
atkindw@cwjamaica.com
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Subject: Re: Tom's aquaponic deadline
From: atkindw@cwjamaica.com (david w atkinson)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 20:50:57 -0500
Hi Tom,
I understand your idea to try and develop a low-cost system that is
sustainable that depends very little on the system in the event of the
millemium bug crisis hitting.
The point I want to focus on is the idea of sustainability. There are many
ideas out there for aquaponics and they are all neither correct nor
incorrect. Because they all work to some degree to provide food for the
'owner(s)' of the system.
If the focus is economic sustainability, then you would have to examine the
profitability of the system by focusing on the most efficient system in
terms of cost and the most productive one. In other words strike the
balance between profitability and productivity.
If the focus is on sustainability and food production for the
family/community, then by all means explore your ideas & develop them (with
the help of the group).
As one who lives in a developing country, cost is the single most
prohibitive factor in hindering production. Cost of land acquisition,
whether by purchase &/or leasing, to start. Followed by equipment
acquisition. We are already in the hole maybe JA$1M - JA$2M. Production
has not even started.
There was a German living here who was into the hydroponic production of
vegetables. He has packed up earlier this year and deceided to start over
in another Caribbean country, because it is easier there.
I myself have not ven acquired land to start my own operation yet and I have
been searching for over five years now. In the meantime, I continue to read
and share and develop the knowledge base for that day, ...:-)
Therefore Tom, I do not know if the few apparent 'negative' comments are
discouraging to you, but keep on keeping on. People like me will benefit
from the ideas you bring to this group. When we all share, we all learn and
we all grow. There have been a few constructive criticisms, let them come,
we need those too.
I do not know if you have explored the S & S Aquafarms system by the
Speranos, but of all the systems I have come accross, their system seems to
give the best balance between productivity & profitability for commercial
use. the good thing is that their system can also be used for community
development as well as providing food for single family use.
Please let us hear the opinion of others out there who can be of help to Tom.
David (from Jamaica West Indies)
atkindw@cwjamaica.com
PS I just re-read this message, and man is it ever emotive. :-)
Sorry for the length. You guys may get tired just reading this
post. :-)
Carolyn Wrote:
>Tom,
>
>I agree with grizzly. Your aquaponics experiments should proceed after you
have
>aquired enough rice/beans/dried greens and vitamins to assauge your concerns.
>
>Carolyn
>
>
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Subject: Re: How are you doing?
From: Jon Hays
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 20:27:35 -0600
Hello Adriana: I am having a mental block right now but there is a virus
that attachs worms and I can't think of it now but I bet you ask and you
will get all kinds of help.
Good Luck John Hays
At 12:08 PM 7/25/99 , you wrote:
>Hi Gail,
>
>How are your ailments doing? I just got back from a week at the beach
>and feel somehat relaxed and ready to tackle life and business again.
>The beach where we stayed is just 30 minutes from here so I went back
>and forth to the greenhouse every day. It was a nice change of pace.
>
>I just introduced my lacewings and trichogramma (for army worms) into my
>greenhouse this week. Other than staying away from pyrethrins are there
>any precautions?
>
>Adriana
John Hays
1903 Pebble Hill Rd.
Carlsbad, NM 88220
1-505-887-0102
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Subject: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming
From: "Marcy L. Nameth"
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 21:39:37 -0700
I`m gonna buy stock like crazy during the stock market dip
(if it happens) :>
--
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Subject: Re: Tom's aquaponic deadline
From: Bagelhole1
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 23:56:54 EDT
In a message dated 7/26/99 12:29:59 AM, choagland@connectec.com writes:
<>
I intend to inventory/stockpile, anyway. But I want to be a model for
low-tech, sustainability, and make community food security a reality.
Thinking about raising insects to eat. But no one has addressed any of my
latest questions about
fishfarming. In the meantime, spent the day doing the backbreaking work of
digging up the trenches and shoring up the walkway in the middle. I was going
to build a frame for the door, but that's now another few days away. Did find
a suitable door in my basement ( I do hauling ), so I've got all my wood for
free, so far.
Vegetables and fish,
Tom O (bagelhole1)
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Subject: Re: misc questions and intro
From: "tbird2"
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 23:22:55 -0500
Thanks,
I would be interested. I will be watching for information.
Mary
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| Message 21 |
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Subject: Re: Tom's aquaponic deadline
From: Bagelhole1
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 00:25:15 EDT
David thank you for your kind support and I appreciate all the answers and
interest so far even if they are cautionary sometimes, I do need to be
cautious. My fishfarm/greenhouse will be for food for myself and whoever
else may be living here (seems like there are always guests) and maybe my
neighbors too, if I can surprise everyone and grow more than I need.
Still trying to figure which type of tilepia ( I should probably eat one
somewhere in Chinatown, to be sure I like them ). Where is the best source,
how long do they take to get, what size (to be ready by 1/1/2000), where to
get a good solar pump, will they eat algae, earthworms, insects, I know
they'll eat some form of pellets, . I'm thinking about raising crickets,
maggots, or mealworms for food (for the fish and myself). Gotta get past
being squeamish. I'ma vegetarian, but I'm going to compromise a little for
protein.
I wish I had time to learn from my mistakes, and I probably will anyway, but
of course, I'm trying to avoid that by having access to all the good people
on this list-serve.
Synergistically,
Tom O (baglehole1)
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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