Aquaponics Digest - Wed 09/08/99
Message 1: Instant Aquaponix!!
from dreadlox@cwjamaica.com (michael kent barnett)
Message 2: COLIFORM Levels...
from dreadlox@cwjamaica.com (michael kent barnett)
Message 3: Re: aphid control
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 4: Re: Need off grid advice
from "Barry Thomas"
Message 5: Re: Need off grid advice
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 6: Re: Need off grid advice
from "Barry Thomas"
Message 7: Re: A few more questions
from Gordon Watkins
Message 8: Re: Need off grid advice
from "William Brown"
Message 9: Re: Greenhouse cooling in Florida
from Ronald Polka
Message 10: Re: Need off grid advice
from Mike Strates
Message 11: Re: A few more questions
from Robin Jenkins
Message 12: Re: Need off grid advice
from "Jerry Fuelling"
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Subject: Instant Aquaponix!!
From: dreadlox@cwjamaica.com (michael kent barnett)
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 00:13:14 +0100
Thanks to all of you who responded to my query regarding online
discussions.
Quite a few messages have been popping up on my screen, and it has been
cool learning about you all. As diverse and different as Asia, America,
Australia, Jamaica, we were all in there.
However there has been a query regarding MORE people from the
"full-time" or commercial or professional body joining up!
I found out that ICQ gives one the chance to create a chatroom for a
particuilar topic. Has someone ever thoughtof doing one for Aquaponix?
I would personally prefer doing it on AOLs Instant messager system for
speed and user friendliness. I also understand that AOLs prog. lets you
send to ICQ addresses.
So...are there more profs (professionals, and professors welcome... :)
) out there who would like to meet us online at a given time...?
I foresee "joining up" easy, just send me a shout saying youre from
Aquaponics, and wish to get the screennames of others seeking Aquaponic
chat...that person can then just configure their "buddy list" to have a
Aquagroup etc. and see immediately who from the Aquaponic group is
online!!
There has been a lot of ideas exchanged just in the short time that I
have put up this idea, and hoping for more folks to join up....
Searching for Aquaponic specific stuff is a pain, we all know that, so I
figure if you have a group of specific netfriends you can ask something,
you cut down on hacking thru that jungle out there!! :)
Listening out...
MikeBee.
JamboyJazz (AOL screenname)
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Subject: COLIFORM Levels...
From: dreadlox@cwjamaica.com (michael kent barnett)
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 00:15:06 +0100
Talking about profs...
(still waiting to hear from Doelle on the subject...)
Has anyone of you ever measured actual colifom levels across your
growbeds? (for targeted reduction?) Well I have an oppurtunity to use
growbed to clean up some clear sewage water with a high coliform level.
The system would be solely for biological breakdown purposes, NOT for
HUMAN consumption, lest another flurry erupt... ;)
This would be a great break through for aquaponics here, as well as for
our envinmental sector... first of its kind!!
Any help would be GREATLY appreciated..
http://stensund.nu/aqua/ Check it out!!
From: "MikeB."
To: http://stensund.nu/aqua/ Check it out!!
Hello Guys...
Fist of all, this is one FANTASTIC site you have!!! Thanks for sharing
so in depth.
A friend and I would like to build something similar to take care
biologically of our pretreated sewage waste..
We both had a look at the Living Machines site, and are now wondering
whether we will be able to bring the level of coliform down as low as
possible without the use of UV, as required by the local authorities.
We are in Jamaica!!
We have waste from 20 people and our system deals with 300 gals a day.
We would like to bring the coliform levels down from near 2000 units to
about <= 100 !! Is this possible, using plants and aquatic animals
alone, and which plants would you recommend, what do you think??
Below is a mail he sent me today... Thanks Mike.
Hey Mike,
I took a look at the living machine and I see a few points we should
look at. Firstly, I noticed that when used at sewage generating
facilities, the
final discharge from the living machine is usually disinfected via
chlorine/UV.
I was hoping to eliminate the use of such disaffection via the plants as
you mentioned, however now I wonder if the treatment level given by
the plants is actually sufficient to bring within regulatory standards
of < 100MPN/100ml.
Yada yada...
Any directions?
Thanks...Mike
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Subject: Re: aphid control
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 06:02:21 -0400
Dave,
I started out spraying with molasses until a batch of gingerbread men
intervened and used it all up. I switched to King Syrup thinking it
would do the same but, guess what. The aphids don't seem to be affected
and flea hoppers are having some fun too, worse since I made the
switch. What do you think there is something special in the molasses?
I've sprayed with syrup in my tanks at least weekly for the last 2
months.
Adriana
> So we give
> the plant a false reading by spraying black strap molasses on the plant. We
> use 1 qt per 100 gal on our hay to drive leaf hoppers away.
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Subject: Re: Need off grid advice
From: "Barry Thomas"
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 13:09:34 +0100
Hi Greg,
This sounds like a great project - any pictures available? How many
terraces/greenhouses do you have?
I'm not an expert in any of these areas but the idea occurred to me that
if you had your main storage at the top, collection tank(s) at the bottom,
you could have one small tank and pump per level to move your nutrient
- in stages - back to the top. One advantage being that it will probably
be quicker/easier/cheaper to fix if it fails - just replace one of the small
pumps. Another relates to the fact that you're using solar panels. If you
had, say, 4 stages you might be able to arrange things so that only 1
of the lift pumps was on at a time - reducing the maximum current
needed from your panels to (roughly) one quarter of that needed
otherwise.
Well, maybe anyway. You did ask for _any_ ideas. :)
A couple of questions:
Do you use any reflectors for when then sun is at a low angle or does
the amount of light through the rest of the day make this unecessary?
Does the altitude/pressure have any other effects on plants?
This sounds like a fairly technical setup - why do you want to pump
it manually every day?
Hi to the list! Been lurking for ages - thought it was time I made a
contribution (if that's what it is). :)
Regards,
Barry
barrythomas@btinternet.com
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Subject: Re: Need off grid advice
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 09:08:09 -0400
Hi Jewel,
How big is your greenhouse going to be? I've looked into gravity drip
options in a Y2K worst-case scenario. There is not a lot of literature
on it but an older book on hydroponics referenced a professor at Cornell
that set up a gravity drip system with an electric pump refilling the
tank from a sump. The second reference for gravity systems is from
Chapin Watermatics, which makes drip irrigation supplies.
One concern I came across was the possibility of plugging your drippers
because gravity does not provide sufficient pressure in the lines.
As to manual pumping to refill the main tank, unless it is a fairly
small operation it probably is not practical except in an extreme
back-up situation because you'll be moving an awful lot of water. My 20
4'x14' growing beds (drip system) use 80 gallons per hour. That
requires two very large tanks and a lot of manual pumping if you want to
only replenish your upper tank once a day.
I would check out the solar pumps in Teds posting of last week or touch
base with Marc Nasmeth from the group who is putting together a
prototype system. Once you cross the line to using a powered pump you
might as well put the pump at the supply end to avoid plugging problems
and let gravity handle the return flows.
One final concern if you have fish in your system is how to oxygenate
your fish tanks.
Adriana
The terraces inside
> the greenhouse make it so we could put all the tanks on the top terrace, and
> gravity feed the beds, or the beds on the top terraces, and the tanks at the
> bottom. We can at least cut out one direction of pumping, but we'd like to
> figure out a way to do it with some daily manual pumping, and perhaps
> gravity drip feeding?
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Subject: Re: Need off grid advice
From: "Barry Thomas"
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 15:53:15 +0100
Sorry, meant to ask in last post...
Do you intend to supply the nutrient/fishwater to the GHs in parallel or
serially? If parallel, how do you cope with the differences in nutrient
pressure produced by the differences in heights between GHs?
Barry
barrythomas@btinternet.com
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Subject: Re: A few more questions
From: Gordon Watkins
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 09:03:12 -0500
I've had some of Mike's breeders for nearly 3 years now, including the
Pennyfish (hornorum x mossambica) and Chocolate (hornorum x nilotica) parent
stock. I've had fair success with the pennyfish and, while spawning
continues to be intermittant, I've been able to keep my 1,000 gal system
stocked. I've had zero luck producing chocolate fry.
I've seen only a few deformities, an occasional saddleback, mishapen
mouth or pectoral fin, but they're rare. Jim R. has commented that the
general body shape of the pennyfish is freakish, I suppose referring to the
small head and deep body, but Mike apparently selected for this shape to
improve the fillet yield. The fry are predominately male (I've never seen
fry in my growout tank) and are very uniform in size, especially compared to
the pure nilotica I also raise.
As for growth rates, I've never been able to approach Mike's claims,
although in honesty my system is not optimized for maximum fish growth.
Perhaps with high water temps, oxygen injection, heavy filtration, etc, his
yields could be achieved but I doubt it would be profitable. My records are
pretty rough but I've gotten growth rates of around .025-.033 oz. per day
from spawning, or about 2 years from spawning to 1.5 lbs. Keep in mind
though that my water temp averages 70-75 with DO levels of 4-5ppm. They
certainly will eat more at temps of 90-95 and DO >5.
The male nilotica fry I raise probably grow as fast or faster than the
pennyfish, but a large number of each spawn are female which grow much
slower. While I haven't harvested any yet and don't have growth numbers, my
guess is that on average (male and female) they will not perform as well as
the pennyfish. That's why I keep hoping for success with the chocolate cross
which should produce predominately male fry with the nilotica benefits.
Other than Mike's growth claims, I've been happy with his stock. Even
though they're expensive, it's also expensive for me to have fry shipped in.
I once ordered 1,000 pennyfish fry from a grower in Arizona and was very
dissatisfied with the quality (lots of deformities) and the survival rate.
Besides, I've not found anyone else who offers improved varieties of tilapia
(particularly the so-called hornorum), at least in small quantities. And he
is quite helpful with information and will throw in a few extras.
It is certainly cheaper to buy straight-run nilotica fingerlings,
especially if you contact outdoor growers in the south in the next month or
so when they're emptying their ponds for the winter, but I can't afford to
waste valuable and limited indoor growing space on fish which won't perform
in my conditions (ie: females). For my money, I'd rather invest in improved
genetics.
my $.02,
Gordon Watkins
Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta wrote:
> > Though Mike Sipe at Cherrysnapper has recently come up with
> > a new hybrid that is supposed to grow out to harvest in 1/2 the time.
>
> Ron,
>
> If I recall, previous reports had indicated that Mike's growth claims
> had not been replicated in the real world. There was also concern about
> lots of genetic deformities in subsequent generations. Does anybody
> have any more recent experience?
>
> Adriana
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Subject: Re: Need off grid advice
From: "William Brown"
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 08:37:10 -1000
I ran a 100 foot long gravity fed drip system for a while. Grew some great
cucumbers. The problems, works best with a drip to waste system so you
don't have to hassle with recovery. Second, the drippers nearest the
gravity stock tank received more nutrient than the ones farthest away during
active dripping. When the tank ran dry, the drippers farthest away received
more nutrient than the drippers closest to the tank. End result, farthest
drippers actually ended up with most the nutrient, nearest drippers had more
than the ones in the middle. Since I was using line pots to hold the
nutrient this became a problem. If I had used media and a run to waste
setup it would be less of a problem but wasteful as the name implies. 12V
pump and battery with either a solar or electric charger are in my future
inspite of the higher initial cost. Never did have more trouble with
clogged emitters using gravity feed over pressured feed. Both occassionaly
had clogged emitters because of the salts drying out. Best to flush with
fresh water after running nutrient solution.
William Brown mahiwai@cmpmail.com
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Subject: Re: Greenhouse cooling in Florida
From: Ronald Polka
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 14:36:06 -0600
At 07:06 AM 9/7/1999 -1000, you wrote:
>Have similar problems in Hawaii as Florida, humidity runs around 76%.
>Thanks for the discourse on evap. coolers. What I would like to know now is
>how we calculate the heat generatedin a greenhouse and how fast it can
>escape. There seems to be greater heat buildup in larger greenhouses than
>smaller ones. I'm looking for that magic formual which will let me match
>the heat generation to dissipation and give me an optimum size greenhouse
>with natural cooling. Snip
William and Adrianna
Calculating heat generation in a greenhousecan be done but it is a
complicated venture. One must assume a heat loss coefficient (which is
readily available in the literature) for the specific construction type, a
correction for airtightness of construction, the overall heat loss
coefficient is then determined, intensity of solar input is assumed,
ambient temperature, wind speed for convective losses, day sky radiant
temperature assumed for envelope radiant losses, any active or passive
venting heat losses, transmissivity of the glazing, a general greenhouse
solar absorbtivity coefficient must be assumed to calculate energy
retained. After these input assumptions are determined then an energy
balance can be calculated where thermal equilibrium is assumed and all heat
energy entering the greenhouse equals the heat energy leaving the
greenhouse. Needless to say this is difficult to do with any degree of
confidence in the result.
To return to the issue of greenhouse sizing and heat losses you are
correct in assuming a smaller greenhouse does not get as hot as a large
greenhouse. This relates to the ratio of envelope size to volume. The
smaller greenhouse has more square feet of glazing per cubic foot of volume
than a large house. This is one of the reasons for commercial growers to
select gutter connected houses. They lose less heat in the winter which is
of critical importance to the commercial operator. All other things being
equal the small greenhouse has a larger overall heat loss coefficient than
the large house.
The rule of thumb for passive ventilation systems in commercial
greenhouses is to put in as much as is practical for the design. To give
you an example I have one 3,000 ft2 double bay gutter connected house in
the New Mexico desert that was built with a 4' x 92' vent on each side wall
and a 4' x 92' vent on each ridge vent for 1,472 ft2 for the 6,000 ft2
house. Of course the vents open about 1 1/2 feet so the effective area of
the 4 vents is about 552 ft2. The house also had a high pressure Mee fog
system for cooling. However, this was not sufficient for the desert. I have
since closed off the passive vents and installed 4 exhaust fans with an
evaporative cooling wet wall 300 ft2 in area on the end walls. One of the
drawbacks with mist systems is that their use without proper ventilation
can lead to increased botrytis and other fungal problems.
For your Hawaiin greenhouse William there is no magic formula for
optimizing the greenhouse size, only laborious energy balance equations
that would have to be applied iteratively to determine the optimum size. It
sounds like you already know the approximate optimum size. Now concentrate
on methods of heat removal such as siting to the prevailing winds for good
air movement through the greenhouse whether it is active fans or passive.
For new construction you may consider some of the new designs for houses
that are becoming popular in the commercial sector such as roll up walls or
retractable roofs. A sawtooth ridge design is another effective means of
achieving good natural ventilation.
The general approach to solving the issue of temperature control is to
choose a house of a desired size and construction type then follow standard
design guidelines for sizing the heating and cooling systems. Good luck
with your endeavors.
Ron Polka
Southwest Technology Development Institute
New Mexico State University
Box 30001, Dept 3SOL
Las Cruces, NM 88003
rpolka@nmsu.edu
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Subject: Re: Need off grid advice
From: Mike Strates
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 09:32:03 +1000
On Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 09:08:09AM -0400, Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
wrote:
> How big is your greenhouse going to be? I've looked into gravity drip
> options in a Y2K worst-case scenario. There is not a lot of literature
Jewel, have you considered a 44 gallon "billie" water pump? In outback
Australia they are used frequently -- a 44 g drum... the line going in has a
check valve which means water can only flow in one direction..
The second line is a piece of pipe which goes right to the bottom of the
sealed barrel and has a check valve in the opposite direction. If you fill
the barrel with water, connect up your inlet and outlets and light a fire
underneath it -- it will begin to pump water...
--
Mike "Skyfox" Strates ; www.croftj.net/~mstrates
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Subject: Re: A few more questions
From: Robin Jenkins
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 19:22:40 -0500
I would agree with everything Mr. Watkins says below RE Pennyfish. I've
had a breeder colony since February. The growth rates of 2 lbs in six
months are based on supernatural DO levels up to, I believe 40 ppm with
liquid oxygen injection and feed on demand.
I too have had no luck with the Chocolate cross (Hornorum x Nilotica).
Out of hundreds if not thousands of fry produced I've seen only one fish
with deep "dimples" directly behind the gills where the fins attatch.
That's it as to mutants. All seem to be male. Howvever, in my earthen
pond they make their "potholes" in the mud and gravel. Are they just going
through the motions? I've seen no fry in the grow tank or pond.
I did not expect the growth claims that Mike makes for my system I just
wanted an consistent, hardy fish with a couple of improved growth
characteristics. I'm happy with my decision. My $.02.
Thanks everyone for great info and participation over the last few months,
literally could not have done it without you.
Robin Jenkins
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Subject: Re: Need off grid advice
From: "Jerry Fuelling"
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 17:22:00 -0500
The Hayes Arboretum in Richmond Indiana used to have a passive solar
greenhouse which could be completely built with material from the local
hardware store. I believe the designer-builder did it as part of his thesis
at Ball State University in the early 1980's. It used Styrofoam beads blown
in between two layers of glazing for insulation at night. The beads where
controlled by a photocell which activated a vacuum pump whenever light
levels were sufficient to allow solar gain. I always thought it would be an
excellent design to adapt to pit type construction.
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