Aquaponics Digest - Sun 09/19/99
Message 1: Re: ozone generators
from "Jay Maher"
Message 2: nutrient/water tanks
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 3: Re: Recirc. Marine Systems
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 4: Re: Concrete...
from "James Bell"
Message 5: Re: Recirc. Marine Systems
from "Sam Levy"
Message 6: Re: Concrete...
from Dave Miller
Message 7: Re: tilapia origin
from james.rakocy@uvi.edu (James Rakocy, Ph.D.)
Message 8: Re: organic certification
from Gordon Watkins
Message 9: Re: photo site
from "Ken Lott"
Message 10: Re: Concrete...
from Brian Gracia
Message 11: FLOATING SYSTEMS
from LC543119
Message 12: Re: tilapia origin
from "Barry Thomas"
Message 13: Re: FLOATING SYSTEMS
from atkindw@cwjamaica.com (david w atkinson)
Message 14: Re: organic certification Hawaii aquaponics and permaculture
from "KevinLReed"
Message 15: Re: ozone generators
from "Jewel Lopez"
Message 16: Re: tilapia origin
from Marc & Marcy
Message 17: Re: tilapia origin
from Ken Lott
Message 18: Re: tilapia origin
from james.rakocy@uvi.edu (James Rakocy, Ph.D.)
Message 19: Re: organic certification Hawaii aquaponics and permaculture
from Ken Lott
Message 20: Re: organic certification Hawaii aquaponics and permaculture
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 21: Re: tilapia origin
from mmiller@pcsia.com
Message 22: Re: organic certification Hawaii aquaponics and permaculture
from Butch Ragland
Message 23: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Sat 09/18/99
from Leon Liggitt
Message 24: Re: tilapia origin
from "Wendy Nagurny"
Message 25: Re: tilapia origin
from Butch Ragland
Message 26: Re: tilapia origin
from "Wendy Nagurny"
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| Message 1 |
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Subject: Re: ozone generators
From: "Jay Maher"
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 00:31:12 -0600
> Ozone made with pure O2 will eventually break down into just that, 100% pure
> O2. Ozone made out of air, will break down into poisonous nitrogen oxides.
>
> Mike "Skyfox" Strates ; www.croftj.net/~mstrates
Mike,
Ozone made from air _or_ pure oxygen will break down into normal O2. Nitrogen
oxides are common air pollutants created during combustion by automobiles, power
stations and the like. I know small amounts of nitric oxide (NO) can also be
created by lightning and so corona discharge type units using air as a feed gas
would probably do the same. I don't know how much NO they can produce, but
think that the major concern in air fed generators was combination with water
vapor to create an acid corrosion problem (just one of the reasons to have the
air as dry as possible).
Does anybody out there know how much NO is produced in proportion to ozone
output from a generator using air? I have seen information on the risks of using
ozone generators as indoor "air purifiers" but they have never mentioned
nitrogen oxides as a problem. Are we exposed to more standing on the street
corner?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Jay Maher
Fisheries and Wildlife
University of Minnesota
200 Hodson Hall, 1980 Folwell Ave.
St. Paul, MN 55108
612-625-3183 (Aquaculture lab)
612-625-5299 (FAX)
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| Message 2 |
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Subject: nutrient/water tanks
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 04:30:10 -0400
Thanks for the timely suggestion Jewel, I set up my hydro greenhouse
using new 32 gallon trash cans to hold my nutrient concentrate.
Recently I've had 2 cans develop cracks which demonstrates that they're
not designed to withstand the force of that much water. Lessons
learned: trash cans do not make good water containers (at least not
ones built with seams), 2. it's a good idea to set tanks on some sort of
a "catchment" basin in case of leaks 3. an $8 can can cause you to lose
$30 worth of nutrients
Adriana
> I wanted to mention that because of y2k, Sam's Club has been selling
> food grade plastic 55 gallon water drums for about $22 in our area,
> just in case anyone could use them.
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| Message 3 |
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Subject: Re: Recirc. Marine Systems
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 04:34:31 -0400
Michael,
What plants can you grow in such a saline solution other than sea
plants? I would not expect the sea water to have a high enough nutrient
concentration to provide a good yield of plants if you found some that
worked.
Adriana
> Are you saying that I can run a pipe from the sea to some tanks and just
> grow in a recirc system? (If so, artemia, food fish, and some crusties
> might be interesting for me...)
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Subject: Re: Concrete...
From: "James Bell"
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 05:51:42 -0400
I am trying to find the solution to that exact problem have
figured out how to insulate it but still not sure on the
waterproofing
thanks Jim
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Subject: Re: Recirc. Marine Systems
From: "Sam Levy"
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 05:17:57 PDT
what separates marine recirculating systems from freshwater ones is largely
the use of seawater...
seawater is far more corrosive than freshwater--consequently your choices of
materials are more limited & maintainance costs tend to be higher.
in addition, seawater holds far less oxygen than fresh water of the same
temperature. so much so that if you're operating at around 25 degrees C,
once you correct for the minimum allowable oxygen level (say between 3.5 -
4.0 mg/l), fresh water has about twice the available oxygen.
on the other hand, nitrite toxicity is far less problematic in seawater
systems and fish reared in salt water will generally taste better than fish
reared in frehwaters.
also, your choice of fish will be different...most marine aquaculture
operations have concentrated on predator species and have looked to sell to
"high end" markets--at least for starters.
in general the following species should be culturable in seawater (full
strength):
***red drum (depending upon temperature restraints)
***striped bass & its hybrids
***European sea bass
***various Sparids (gilt-head bream, sharpsnout bream, &c)
***Asian sea bass (depending on temp restraints)
***eels
***mullets
***dolphin fish (mahi-mahi) (although I don't know if anyone has succeeded
commercially w/this species)
***some strains of tilapia (be careful here--i have transfered to seawater
some six or seven tilapine crosses & ONLY those w/ mossambicus in their
history were able to tolerate full strength seawater)
by the way, if your near the beach, what prevents you from using an open
land based system or a cage system out at sea?
sam
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Subject: Re: Concrete...
From: Dave Miller
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 10:46:01 -0400
I have seen the polymers for increased adhesion and I use them in tile
work. Some silicone but other chemicals too. Get a Materials Safety
Handling Data Sheet to see if it is toxic or if it is toxic after
drying.
I believe there is a food grade concrete used in certain countertop
applications. Might have thickness as you would need.
Dave
--
Nothing is lost when a candle lights another candle.
Light the fire of knowledge.
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Subject: Re: tilapia origin
From: james.rakocy@uvi.edu (James Rakocy, Ph.D.)
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 11:12:13 -0400 (AST)
Dressout for tilapia fillets is about 33%. The waste probably goes to a
landfill.
>
>
>> One farm in Costa Rica produces
>> more than 10 million lbs. of tilapia (>3 million lbs. of fillets).
>
>
>So what happens to the other 6 - 7 million lbs?
>
>Barry
>barrythomas@btinternet.com
>
>
>
>
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| Message 8 |
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Subject: Re: organic certification
From: Gordon Watkins
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 10:34:33 -0500
Kevin,
Check out http://web.iquest.net/ofma/ , the web site of the Organic
Farmers Marketing Association. They have links to state, regional, and
private certification programs as well as updates on the pending
implementation of the Organic Foods Production Act.
Gordon Watkins
KevinLReed wrote:
> Hello All,I was wondering if any in the group are growing certified
> organic crops.Maybe some one knows about certifying agencies?Kevin
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Subject: Re: photo site
From: "Ken Lott"
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 12:12:25 -0400
Go for it! Griz
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Subject: Re: Concrete...
From: Brian Gracia
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 11:59:50 -0500
Hello,
I would use a coat of fibreglass resin made for water contact to line the
tank. Bitumen, which is a tar based paint can be used. I have search high
and low for other applications, but what I found was that non of the
products were safe for potable water use.
Brian
At 08:55 AM 9/19/99 , you wrote:
>This is not the liquid liner stuff, this is actually an additive to
>chemically modify the concrete!!
>
********************************************
Better Produce through Better Control
********************************************
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Subject: FLOATING SYSTEMS
From: LC543119
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 16:51:22 EDT
ADRIANA, Just made it back from Jamaica ,called David A a call no response
,Check hydrofarm.com for several my articles on commercial floating
systems I helped instal and designed in several countries and the evolution
of this system I started in 1952 in England, give me a buz
Gordon
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Subject: Re: tilapia origin
From: "Barry Thomas"
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 22:30:50 +0100
> Dressout for tilapia fillets is about 33%. The waste probably goes to
a
> landfill.
>
> >
> >
> >> One farm in Costa Rica produces
> >> more than 10 million lbs. of tilapia (>3 million lbs. of fillets).
> >
> >
> >So what happens to the other 6 - 7 million lbs?
James - many thanks for the info.
Am I the only one to find it more than a little depressing though?
Is this level of waste and the form of its disposal common across the
industry or just to the operations so far discussed?
Given a need for fairly high quality food (not difficult to find) and
similar levels of investment, design skills and management; which system
is most likely to give the best return with minimum environmental
impact - aqua or hydro?
I'm not trying to knock aquaponics - I think it's great and it certainly
seems better (both morally and in terms of efficiency) than eg trawling
where, in addition to the waste already described, large numbers of
other creatures are killed and dumped. However, a quite large number of
people on this list seem to be interested in sustainable, low-impact
food production and the kind of figures given above make me wonder...
Does anyone have or know of any info on comparisons between the two
systems?
Oh, when I mention returns etc I'm talking about the production of food
not money.
Barry
barrythomas@btinternet.com
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Subject: Re: FLOATING SYSTEMS
From: atkindw@cwjamaica.com (david w atkinson)
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 18:31:12 -0400
Hey Gordon,
Sorry we missed you. Mike's # is out of service at the moment. Telephone
company problem. I did not receive any messages on my answering machine
(943-9612).
Until next time.
David
At 04:51 PM 09/19/1999 EDT, you wrote:
>ADRIANA, Just made it back from Jamaica ,called David A a call no response
>,Check hydrofarm.com for several my articles on commercial floating
>systems I helped instal and designed in several countries and the evolution
>of this system I started in 1952 in England, give me a buz
> Gordon
>
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Subject: Re: organic certification Hawaii aquaponics and permaculture
From: "KevinLReed"
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 16:25:29 -0700
Gordon,
Thanks! I am going to Michigan at the end of the month to=20
get certified as an organic farm and process inspector with
Independent Organic Inspectors Association ( IOIA). I was
just curious about people in the group and if they had found
organic certification worthwhile or not.
I have become affiliated with the non profit Anahola Agricultural =
Resource
Center on Kauai, Hawaii. I had thought the organic training would help =
us in our greenhouse and permaculture operations in Hawaii.=20
The sugar cane crops are about gone. This has freed up lots of =
agricultural=20
property for alternate types of farming. We plan to use Tilapia and ebb =
and flow systems a la S & S Aqua Farms to grow tomatoes and then =
circulate the water to NFT lettuce system. Then, the water will be used =
to drip irrigate plants in a second greenhouse where the plants are =
grown directly in the soil. The purpose of the second greenhouse for =
soil plants is to control white fly and other pests by net coverings. =20
=20
If we can successfully demonstrate that this will work profitably, we =
want to use the same type of system as an inter crop between hardwood =
trees like Koa and Teak.=20
Other inter crops we will grow will include Kava root outside of the =
greenhouses. The hardwoods grow in about 20 years on Kauai as opposed to =
the normal 80 years elsewhere and so will be a good long term crop at an =
estimated value of 1.5 million dollars per acre in 20 years of growth. =
As the Anahola group is run by native Hawaiians, land can be made =
available to the Center from the Hawaiian Homelands
Bureau for $1 dollar per acre. We need to secure land with profitable =
inter crops as the long term crops grow.
=20
Much of the infrastructure is ready, including new greenhouses standing =
vacant=20
and others still in the boxes. There are ten 1,000 gallon water storage =
tanks and=20
an almost complete commissary including refrigerated storage. There is =
also a parcel of land next to the main highway to set up a vegetable and =
fruit stand as well as many hotel who will purchase specialty items like =
herbs, baby lettuce etc. We also have some very good chances for =
government grants ( 503's for Hawaiian Natives), charitable remainder =
trust funding of lands given to the group for crop growing and return of =
a percentage of the tax free profits to the owner, as well as planting =
individual trees or groups of trees as tax free trust or retirement =
accounts that are=20
insured locally and or crop insured by the USDA.
So the upshot is, we will be trying to put together a system that works =
on a system where each node, then greenhouse, then inter crop system =
will operate as stand alone but also can be integrated into larger =
system incorporating hundreds or thousands of acres. This will provide a =
basis for new local jobs and opportunity for any interested in helping =
things along.=20
Back to the question about organic farming ... remember? ... I wanted to =
know what the group thinks about organic certification. Is it worth the =
time and money to certify as organic? I am interested in you thoughts.
Kevin
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Subject: Re: ozone generators
From: "Jewel Lopez"
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 17:30:28 -0600
> Does anybody out there know how much NO is produced in proportion to ozone
> output from a generator using air? I have seen information on the risks of
using
> ozone generators as indoor "air purifiers" but they have never mentioned
> nitrogen oxides as a problem. Are we exposed to more standing on the
street
> corner?
>
My past research indicated that it depends on the type of system the
generator is using to make the O3. Some claim to have no nitrogen
byproduct.
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Subject: Re: tilapia origin
From: Marc & Marcy
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 19:17:04 -0600
In our operation ALL waste except for known and potential
pathological situations is recycled and used in our
operation.
We are importing paper, manure, wood shavings and other
materials as we can't generate enough "WASTE" to keep up
with our demand. We do not consider it waste or do we dump
it. Instead we direct it's use in the most healthy,
productive and profitable directions.
In order to do this we have an integrated operation with
several other ag efforts beside our integrated
hydroponics/aquaculture efforts. (we call it aquaponics) We
are hardly original and a lot of other ag businesses are
doing this.
It is getting more attractive as the regulatory and
lawmaking bodies are increasingly offering tax breaks,
technical support, media exposure and regulatory
relief/reclassification from old styled landfill
regulations. This direction is gaining powerful support as
the landfills are running out of space due to filling up,
urban sprawl, etc. and is here to stay I'm sure.
Hope this is a cheery note!
..snip..
> I'm not trying to knock aquaponics - I think it's great and it certainly
> seems better (both morally and in terms of efficiency) than eg trawling
> where, in addition to the waste already described, large numbers of
> other creatures are killed and dumped. However, a quite large number of
> people on this list seem to be interested in sustainable, low-impact
> food production and the kind of figures given above make me wonder...
..snip..
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Subject: Re: tilapia origin
From: Ken Lott
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 21:27:31 -0400
I don't believe he's saying the other seven million pounds are waste,three
miilion are fillets,the rest would be whole fish and hopefully some
by-products.
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Subject: Re: tilapia origin
From: james.rakocy@uvi.edu (James Rakocy, Ph.D.)
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 21:43:42 -0400 (AST)
>
>> Dressout for tilapia fillets is about 33%. The waste probably goes to
>a
>> landfill.
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >> One farm in Costa Rica produces
>> >> more than 10 million lbs. of tilapia (>3 million lbs. of fillets).
>> >
>> >
>> >So what happens to the other 6 - 7 million lbs?
>
>James - many thanks for the info.
>
>Am I the only one to find it more than a little depressing though?
>
>Is this level of waste and the form of its disposal common across the
>industry or just to the operations so far discussed?
There's just as much waste from capture fisheries. You can extract protein
and oil from fish offal. In aquaponics there doesn't have to be any waste. A
portion of the dissolved waste nutrients goes to hydroponic plants. The
remainder along with solid waste (sludge) can be applied to land and
recycled. The fish carcasses can be composted and recycled. This is an
ideal. However, often commercial operations cannot afford ideals. They
must obey the laws of economics, the great leveler. Recycling of byproducts
other than dissloved nutrients may not be economical. The nutrient waste
from hydroponics can also be recycled, so no difference there. What is an
advantage, despite the obvious ones that have been discussed repeatedly, is
that you are raising high quality protein. You've jumped a few counters
over in the supermarket from the salad section. Let's face it. We all love
hydroponics, but successful commercial hydroponic crops are somewhat
limited. When you view the produce department at the supermarket, not all
that many items are raised hydroponically. Raising fish adds a wonderful
new dimension and hopefully we can add more fish species to our aquaponic
arsenal. At least now you have better balanced aquaponic meal. We just
need a starch. Rice grows well in aquaponic systems if you want to strive
for the ideal. Jim R.
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Subject: Re: organic certification Hawaii aquaponics and permaculture
From: Ken Lott
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 21:22:08 -0400
> Kevin,I think it would definitely increase the prices that can be
> charged,if it is certified,check with Ted Ground,he has been working
> on getting organic fish food produced,so that aquaponically grown fish
> can be certified organically. Back to the question about organic
> farming ... remember? ... I wanted to know what the group thinks about
> organic certification. Is it worth the time and money to certify as
> organic? I am interested in you thoughts.Kevin --Original Message-----
>
> From: Gordon Watkins
> To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
> Date: Sunday, September 19, 1999 8:32 AM
> Subject: Re: organic certification
>
>
> Kevin,
> Check out http://web.iquest.net/ofma/ , the web site of
> the Organic Farmers Marketing Association. They have links
> to state, regional, and private certification programs as
> well as updates on the pending implementation of the Organic
> Foods Production Act.
>
>
>
>
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Subject: Re: organic certification Hawaii aquaponics and permaculture
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 21:26:08 -0400
Kevin,
I really don't think it's worth it. In 7 months in business the only
ones who really cared about the certification was the local health food
chain. Chefs are more concerned about pesticides, not certification, so
why go through the cost and hassle?
I really became a cynic when I was told by a reliable source that our
one organic farm (run by a certifier) dumps raw chicken manure onto his
fields, as do other certified organic farmers in the state. "Would you
like a little salmonella with a side order of greens, sir?" From that
standpoint alone I think hydro or aquaponic has a sanitation/health
advantage.
Adriana
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Subject: Re: tilapia origin
From: mmiller@pcsia.com
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 21:19:11 -0500
I have also wondered how I could use the leftovers from the fish I catch
from my pond. Could not the carcasses be dried and used as chicken/hog
feed? Maybe this is a post for Sanet but since it is on the table, does
anybody recycle their fish byproducts into fish emulsion or animal feed?
Mike Miller
At 16:35 19-09-99 -0600, you wrote:
However, a quite large number of
>people on this list seem to be interested in sustainable, low-impact
>food production and the kind of figures given above make me wonder...
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| Message 22 |
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Subject: Re: organic certification Hawaii aquaponics and permaculture
From: Butch Ragland
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 21:29:58 -0400
This is one of the grandest post i have ever read on the net. Good=20
luck!
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Subject: Re: tilapia origin
From: "Wendy Nagurny"
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 23:12:54 -0400
If you are concerned about the leftovers from you home use, I would just
cook it up with some rice or barley and vegetables and feed it to the cats
or dogs. Or you could do what the native Americans (and my grandparents)
did with it and bury it
in the corn patch. Or you could always use it for raising maggots to feed
the fish.
For larger operations perhaps there is a dog or cat food manufacturers
nearby that would like to take it off your hands.
Wendy
>I have also wondered how I could use the leftovers from the fish I catch
>from my pond. Could not the carcasses be dried and used as chicken/hog
>feed? Maybe this is a post for Sanet but since it is on the table, does
>anybody recycle their fish byproducts into fish emulsion or animal feed?
>Mike Miller
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Subject: Re: tilapia origin
From: Butch Ragland
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 22:56:11 -0400
>Or you could always use it for raising maggots to feed the fish.
I heard of a system raising maggots. The waste was put into a vat, after a
while it was slowly flooded. The maggots rose above the water level until
they spilled out and were used for fish feed.
If anyone knows more detail please help.
Butch Ragland So. Indiana zone 5
"Conflict is as addictive as nicotine, alcohol, drugs, etc.
I'm sorry to report that cooperation is not."
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Subject: Re: tilapia origin
From: "Wendy Nagurny"
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 00:16:54 -0400
Interesting. I would not do this in a recirculating system, but for a pond
system, It would work, because I can attest that maggots do float.
Wendy (who has lived through several floods)
>>Or you could always use it for raising maggots to feed the fish.
>
>I heard of a system raising maggots. The waste was put into a vat, after a
>while it was slowly flooded. The maggots rose above the water level until
>they spilled out and were used for fish feed.
>
>If anyone knows more detail please help.
>
>
>Butch Ragland So. Indiana zone 5
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