Aquaponics Digest - Thu 09/30/99
Message 1: Re: dumb question
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 2: leaf curl
from Rick_Stein-RP5525
Message 3: Re: leaf curl
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 4: Re: leaf curl
from Rick_Stein-RP5525
Message 5: Re: leaf curl
from
Message 6: Re: leaf curl
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 7:
from
Message 8: Re: leaf curl
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 9:
from
Message 10: Re: leaf curl
from Glen Seibert
Message 11: Re: leaf curl
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 12: Re: leaf curl
from Glen Seibert
Message 13: RE: Fruiting Crops in Aquaponics
from "Charlie Shultz"
Message 14: Aquaponic Tomatoes
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 15: Re: No Subject/what to buy
from Bagelhole1
Message 16: Re: leaf curl
from Ronald Polka
Message 17: Re:
from Ronald Polka
Message 18: diatomaceous earth
from Ron Neujahr
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| Message 1 |
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Subject: Re: dumb question
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 05:47:36 -0400
Jose,
You can also use rice hulls or even some types of sawdust.
Adriana
> We have the same problem here in Jamaica... very expensive imports!!
> Try 1/4 inch pea gravel, or river washed sand.
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Subject: leaf curl
From: Rick_Stein-RP5525
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 08:51:03 -0700 (MST)
I've set up a very small hydroponic test garden, to see if I could be
successful with this method of gardening outside in Phoenix AZ. Temps
get really hot here, 110-120F., with humidity down around 5-8%. Traditional
gardening requires a lot of water and soil additives due to desert
conditions. I'm in a wheelchair and can't work well in a dirt garden.
With a little help I've been able to set up a small hydroponic garden
with tomatoes, cucumbers, butternut squash, bell peppers and cantaloup.
My biggest problem has been white flies. I sprayed a mixture of soap
and water on the plants, which helped, but made my reservoir looked like
a bubble bath. The flies are almost all gone so I've stopped spraying.
Something new I've noticed is some of the new foliage on the butternut
squash is curling. Does anyone have any ideas ? This is a great hobby
for me and I'd like to keep it simple and successful.
Thanks,
Rick
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Subject: Re: leaf curl
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 12:21:21 -0400
Hi Rick,
>I sprayed a mixture of soap
> and water on the plants, which helped, but made my reservoir looked like
> a bubble bath. The flies are almost all gone so I've stopped spraying.
It sounds like you used an awful lot of soap in your spray to cause
foaming in the tank, I've never had that happen.
> Something new I've noticed is some of the new foliage on the butternut
> squash is curling. Does anyone have any ideas ? This is a great hobby
> for me and I'd like to keep it simple and successful.Rick,
Leaves curl due to a nutrient deficiency or sometimes as a reaction to
bugs. I occasionally see this when aphids are starting to take over. I
suspect you would have noticed these so I assume that you have a
nutrient problem. Here's what Nutritional Disorders in Glasshouse
Tomatoes, Lettuce and Cucumbers says about calcium deficiency:
" The youngest leaves show transparent white dots near the edges and
between the veins. Interveinal chlorosis appears in most leaves,
gradually increasing in severity; the main veins stay green...The
youngest leaves remain small, their edges are deeply incised and curled
upwards...older leaves curve downwards."
I know you specifically mentioned this problem on the squash, I assume
they have slightly different requirements for nutrients. If this
appears to be the cause I would do the following:
1. Check your pH. Has it been running below 6 or over 7? If so your
nutrient mix is probably ok but the plants can't take advantage of it.
Also has there been a change in your water supply?
2. Increase the amount of calcium nitrate by 10% to see if this
corrects it.
3. Spray with a solution of 10 g of calcium nitrate per liter of water.
Boron deficiency can also cause leaf curl but it would be accompanied by
a collection of other symptoms like brittle plants, malformed fruits,
and stunted growth.
Good luck, Adriana
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Subject: Re: leaf curl
From: Rick_Stein-RP5525
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 09:46:35 -0700 (MST)
Hi Adriana,
Thanks for your tips {;)
Last time I checked my pH it was 6.2, but that was 4 days ago.
I'll check it again today. Is there an easy way to tell when it
is time to mix a new nutrient solution ? The only thing I've
read said to let the reservoir reduce by half, then add water
until full and let reduce by half again and then mix a new batch
and start all over again. Are there any better ideas ? Also,
I haven't ever added any calcium nitrate. I been using a
commercial hydroponic liquid fertilizer and the growth is
astounding everyone. You mentioned the leaf curl was upward. My
leaves are curling under, almost looks like wilt and only on
two plants. I'll check on the calcium nitrate.
Thanks again
Rick
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Subject: Re: leaf curl
From:
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 13:02:53 + 5 EST
Crazy as it sounds, we have had some success in getting rid of our
whiteflies by
dusting them with diatomaceous earth (available at most pool supply stores -
which I
assume there are a lot of in AZ). A coffee can with small (1/64 or 1/32) holes
drilled into it makes a great shaker and it is fairly natural. My
understanding is
that the abrasive nature of the diatomacesus earth tears the fragile thin
bodies of
the insects and kills them off - just a thought.
As far as thew wilting - youv'e got me. We experienced a bit on some
unsuccessful
tomatoes - ultimately killed them. Best of luck!
Mike
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Subject: Re: leaf curl
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 13:07:46 -0400
Hi Rick,
There are no consistent guidelines regarding when and if to dump the
nutrient solution. My consultant suggests that I replace it once a
month. I've read literature implying that it isn't necessary to dump it
ever. I would recommend that you get a float valve to add water to your
tank automatically. Then I would replace the whole tank at least once a
month . I would worry that without topping off the tank your nutrients
would get seriously concentrated in your Arizona heat and the plants
might be suffering from that.
> I haven't ever added any calcium nitrate. I been using a
> commercial hydroponic liquid fertilizer and the growth is
> astounding everyone.
Actually if you read carefully the young leaves curled up and the older
leaves curled down...
You mentioned the leaf curl was upward. My
> leaves are curling under, almost looks like wilt and only on
> two plants. I'll check on the calcium nitrate.
One other possibility is salt build-up in your media. It wouldn't hurt
to give all your plants a good hosing with fresah water to flush them
out. Then be sure to check the EC the next morning to see if it has
risen to undesirably high levels and adjust it accordingly.
Good luck, Adriana
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Subject:
From:
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 13:08:04 + 5 EST
Hi All,
Just a quick project for you. We are building a 30'X40' greenhouse here at
our school
within the next few months (using student raised funds). We are also pretty
much
assured that we are going to receive a grant of $2000 to equip it. WHAT DO
YOU FEEL
IS ESSENTIAL TO EQUIP IT WITH (besides benches)?????????????
Keep in mind that this will be a greenhouse/classroom and will be used for
aquaculture, hydroponics, and traditional horticulture. Mostly research
type projects
will be done and bedding plants to sell in the spring (if and when it ever
arrives
again!!!)
Mike
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| Message 8 |
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Subject: Re: leaf curl
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 13:10:24 -0400
DE is a dessicant so be careful using it, especially in Arizona. I've
read that it is not advisable to use pool-grade DE for some reason. It
sounded good at the time.
Adriana
> Crazy as it sounds, we have had some success in getting rid of our
whiteflies by
> dusting them with diatomaceous earth (available at most pool supply stores
- which I
> assume there are a lot of in AZ).
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Subject:
From:
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 13:11:29 + 5 EST
Smart words from Adrianna - thanks, forgot to mention the dessicant
qualities - good
"heads up"
Mike
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Subject: Re: leaf curl
From: Glen Seibert
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 10:19:35 -0700
Rick_Stein-RP5525 wrote:
>
> I've set up a very small hydroponic test garden, to see if I could be
> successful with this method of gardening outside in Phoenix AZ. Temps
> get really hot here, 110-120F., with humidity down around 5-8%. Traditional
> gardening requires a lot of water and soil additives due to desert
> conditions. I'm in a wheelchair and can't work well in a dirt garden.
> With a little help I've been able to set up a small hydroponic garden
> with tomatoes, cucumbers, butternut squash, bell peppers and cantaloup.
> My biggest problem has been white flies. I sprayed a mixture of soap
> and water on the plants, which helped, but made my reservoir looked like
> a bubble bath. The flies are almost all gone so I've stopped spraying.
> Something new I've noticed is some of the new foliage on the butternut
> squash is curling. Does anyone have any ideas ? This is a great hobby
> for me and I'd like to keep it simple and successful.
>
> Thanks,
> Rick
Hello Rick!
My hydro set up is in a greenhouse, where insect problems are only made
worse. Here in Southern California our newest problem is the Giant
White Fly. These bad boys, along with spider mites, aphids, etc. really
like the greenhouse environment. I tried SAFER soap too, and not only
got the bubble bath effect in my cistern but got bad burning on my
foliage from the high potassium content of the spray.
The best overall solution Ive found is ultrafine horticultural oil,
which forms a physical coat on bugs and prevents them from respirating.
Its equally great for keeping down fungi and molds in the high humidity
of a greenhouse. And because it is so highly refined it wont clog the
stomata of the plants.
I have a flood and drain system and the parafin oil does get into the
cistern when a flood cycle rinses some of it off my perlite medium; but
it floats on top in a super thin crust and is easy to skim off. Because
my pump draws from the bottom of the tank theres no problem with it
contaminating the solution.
Hope this helps!
Glen
Fullerton College Hydroponics
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Subject: Re: leaf curl
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 13:30:09 -0400
GLEN,
Please keep those Giant White Flies in California. I wouldn't dream of
using Ultrafine Oil in any temperature over 90 degrees. I learned the
hard way, fried plants!
> The best overall solution Ive found is ultrafine horticultural oil,
> which forms a physical coat on bugs and prevents them from respirating.
Adriana Gutierrez
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| Message 12 |
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Subject: Re: leaf curl
From: Glen Seibert
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 10:38:41 -0700
Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta wrote:
>
> GLEN,
>
> Please keep those Giant White Flies in California. I wouldn't dream of
> using Ultrafine Oil in any temperature over 90 degrees. I learned the
> hard way, fried plants!
>
> > The best overall solution Ive found is ultrafine horticultural oil,
> > which forms a physical coat on bugs and prevents them from respirating.
>
> Adriana Gutierrez
Right you are Adriana, and I was remiss in not being clear on that
point. In the controlled environment of the greenhouse the direct
sunshine is broken by shade cloth and the temp. is controlled around
78-85degrees. Horticultural parafins do heat up like a deep fryer and
can literally crisp your plants.
Thanks for the save, coach!
Glen
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Subject: RE: Fruiting Crops in Aquaponics
From: "Charlie Shultz"
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 12:27:05 PDT
Greetings Mark (and others):
I also assumed the nutrients available in our aquaponics systems would be
insufficient to provide optimal conditions for fruiting plants such as
tomatoes. In the past I experimented with cherry tomatoes with decent
results. Jim R. also grew cherry toms here at UVI in the past.
This past winter season, I gave some determinate tomatoes a trial in our
raft systems. I planted 12 varieties with approximately 4-foot spacing
between plants. All 12 varieties THRIVED!! (including: Celebrity, Colonial,
SunMaster, Flora, Pilgrim, Merced, Bonita, Olympic, Duke, Empire, Joker, and
Liberty). Most of these varieties are widely available
(www.johnnyseeds.com).
To my amazement I was able to produce an average of 41 lbs/plant. This does
not include approximately 15% loss to birds/rats/thieves.
Individual yeilds were not determined, merely an average of all varieties
was taken (ie, 500lbs/12 plants). As Mark B. mentioned this success may be
a result of not overplanting our grow-space. In addition, my troughs were
dispersed with companion plants including marigold, mint and chive. These
plants contributed to the removal of nitrogens, which may have improved the
fruit-set of our tomatoes.
These determinate (or short-vine) plants eventually put on so much
vegetation that they had to be supported from above with twine attached to
vine clips (www.cropking.com).
Nutrient supplementation was supplied with my weekly pH adjustments. I
alternate with KOH one week and Ca(OH2) the next. These additions not only
bring the pH back to neutral, but serve as calcium and potassium
supplements. The only other additional nutrient we add is a trace amount of
chelated iron. (I think CropKing supplies all these chemicals as well).
This winter we will be conducting more research with tomatoes and other
fruiting crops to determine yeild, plant spacing and density. I will be
adding photos soon to my web-site and will notify this list when it's ready.
Enjoy the winter,
Charlie Shultz
>Too much nitrogen will give too much leaf growth and less fruit on >both
>tomatoes and strawberries. That said, Charley at UVI had some >outstanding
>tomatoes growing on one plant I saw down there. Perhaps the key is >to
>limit
>the number of tomato plants and use, e.g., leafy greens to soak up >the
>excess
>nitrogen.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Subject: Aquaponic Tomatoes
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 15:40:21 -0400
Hi Charlie,
It's nice to see that Jim is letting you out of the growing/fish
operations long enough to participate. If you had to select 4 varieties
out of the ones you grew which would they be?
Was your spacing 4 feet between plants in all directions? For how long
did the plants produce fruit?
Adriana
> This past winter season, I gave some determinate tomatoes a trial in our
> raft systems. I planted 12 varieties with approximately 4-foot spacing
> between plants. All 12 varieties THRIVED!! (including: Celebrity, Colonial,
> SunMaster, Flora, Pilgrim, Merced, Bonita, Olympic, Duke, Empire, Joker, and
> Liberty).
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Subject: Re: No Subject/what to buy
From: Bagelhole1
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 16:36:17 EDT
In a message dated 9/30/99 6:06:27 PM, MCOMET@south-lewis.moric.org writes:
<>
Benches, forget the benches. We are using recycled 2 liter plastic pop
bottles attached in a vertical way to hold the seedlings, suspended from the
structure of the greenhouse over the trenches, this way we get 720 sites for
veggies in a 22'x7'x7' greenhouse. Will have pictures up hopefully next week
at http://bagelhole.org Believe me, $2000 is alot, more than you need, but
nice to have. Spent money on plastic for trenches and greenhouse, pump and
timer ($170), screws, little things.
Tom O
(bagelhole1)
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Subject: Re: leaf curl
From: Ronald Polka
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 15:11:42 -0600
Rick
Is your leaf curl variable throughout the day? Does is seem to peak during
midday and then return to normal by evening. I have seen this occur in my
garden with zucchini in Las Cruces NM. The large relatively thin leaves
seem to be stressed by the high light levels, high temperatures, and low
relative humidity. These conditions have prevented me from getting a decent
zucchini crop. If you see this variation during the course of the day you
may have to resort to shadecloth to reduce the light levels and
temperatures at the leaf surface.
At 08:51 AM 9/30/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>I've set up a very small hydroponic test garden, to see if I could be
>successful with this method of gardening outside in Phoenix AZ. Temps
>get really hot here, 110-120F., with humidity down around 5-8%. Traditional
>gardening requires a lot of water and soil additives due to desert
>conditions. I'm in a wheelchair and can't work well in a dirt garden.
>With a little help I've been able to set up a small hydroponic garden
>with tomatoes, cucumbers, butternut squash, bell peppers and cantaloup.
>My biggest problem has been white flies. I sprayed a mixture of soap
>and water on the plants, which helped, but made my reservoir looked like
>a bubble bath. The flies are almost all gone so I've stopped spraying.
>Something new I've noticed is some of the new foliage on the butternut
>squash is curling. Does anyone have any ideas ? This is a great hobby
>for me and I'd like to keep it simple and successful.
>
>Thanks,
>Rick
>
>
Ron Polka
Southwest Technology Development Institute
New Mexico State University
Box 30001, Dept 3SOL
Las Cruces, NM 88003
rpolka@nmsu.edu
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Subject: Re:
From: Ronald Polka
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 16:09:43 -0600
Mike
I assume that your greenhouse includes all the necessary equipment for
operation such as heat, cooling, electrical and plumbing. If so then you
can concentrate on what you need for growing. Barry is right on about
miscellaneous hardware. You may also want inexpensive meters for monitoring
pH, EC, less than $100 each, plus thermometers. Reserve some money for a
timer, pump, plumbing such as pipe, tubing, fittings, etc, fertilizer,
assorted containers, buckets, tools, IPM predators when the nasty bugs get
after your crop. Do you have an environmental controller purchased yet? A
two or three stage thermostat is probably sufficient, $100 or $200, for
heating and cooling. If you are going to do aquaculture then you will need
tanks, pumps, biofiltration, aeration, temperature control, feed, etc. All
dependant on the size of the operation and proposed species. Plumbing costs
will add up rather quickly. You will need to monitor dissolved oxygen but
meters are expensive, minimum $600 or $700. For student use it might be
prudent to buy an aquaculture test kit manufatured by Hach or LaMotte, they
offer a variety of sizes and also individual kits for specific tests. You
can also buy these kits for monitoring nutrient solution if you feel the
need to know the precise makeup of your solution. A few work benches would
be handy, maybe you can have them built in the school wood shop by
students. Have your water tested before you start growing. I bet you will
be surprised at how quickly that $2000 disappears.
At 01:08 PM 9/30/1999 EST, you wrote:
>Hi All,
>Just a quick project for you. We are building a 30'X40' greenhouse here
at our school
>within the next few months (using student raised funds). We are also
pretty much
>assured that we are going to receive a grant of $2000 to equip it. WHAT
DO YOU FEEL
>IS ESSENTIAL TO EQUIP IT WITH (besides benches)?????????????
>
>Keep in mind that this will be a greenhouse/classroom and will be used for
>aquaculture, hydroponics, and traditional horticulture. Mostly research
type projects
>will be done and bedding plants to sell in the spring (if and when it ever
arrives
>again!!!)
>
>Mike
>
>
Ron Polka
Southwest Technology Development Institute
New Mexico State University
Box 30001, Dept 3SOL
Las Cruces, NM 88003
rpolka@nmsu.edu
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Subject: diatomaceous earth
From: Ron Neujahr
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 20:40:33 -0500
Mike,
I have used successfully the above. I purchased a hank-crank duster.
Much more efficient and be sure to place the material on the bottom side
of the leaves.
Ron
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