Aquaponics Digest - Tue 10/05/99
Message 1: Re: Bacteria innoculants
from "TGTX"
Message 2: Re: Important new advances
from "Jewel Lopez"
Message 3: Re: Important new advances
from "Jewel Lopez"
Message 4: Re:
from Debra Jaramillo
Message 5: Re: Important new advances
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 6: Fish dying.
from Bagelhole1
Message 7: Re: Fish dying.
from William Evans
Message 8: RE: Fish dying.
from "Ronald W. Brooks"
Message 9: Re: Fish dying.
from "Wendy Nagurny"
Message 10: Re: Fish dying.
from MUDDTOO
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Subject: Re: Bacteria innoculants
From: "TGTX"
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 04:40:04 -0500
> You're a poet and don't know it.
>
And my feet don't show it, cause they aren't Longfellows.
My feet are almost identical to Bilbo Baggins feet.
(Independently confirmed by several literate observers)
Ach, aye, tis a curse.
Or not.
Ted
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Subject: Re: Important new advances
From: "Jewel Lopez"
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 10:18:28 -0600
Hi Barry, I appreciate the input and your opinions. Let me see if I can
logically address the issues you raised. If not, please let me know. I
agree with you to a certain extent about the computer controlled systems.
I'd might even go for that if we had the power to run everything, but the
computers, solonoids, pumps etc. all use electricity, which I mentioned we
don't have (and many third world farmers don't have). Computers are
wonderful for certain things, like research and things like this email list.
And maybe for greenhouses - I can't say because I don't have much knowledge
about that. But I personally like "low tech" whenever possible when it
comes to certain things. Like my husband says - he can easily fix and work
on the old 56 chevy truck. The new one, with all it's computerized
advances, has just made for more to go wrong, and forces you to rely on
other "experts" instead of being in your control. But even so, we have no
choice really, as do a lot of other farmers in the world. Of course if the
y2k thing causes a lot of problems, the third world will be more functional
than us. But y2k and maintenance problems aside, one of the great things
about the autopot system is that it's passive, very simple, and requires no
electricity, let alone computers. The other is that the plant dictates
nutrient usage, which results in a natural method of monitoring the crops
without computers and peripherals, and greater crop output without human
"fussing". In fact, it does it better than a computer can. As you saw with
the Paraguay pics, it can produce great crops without all the other
concerns. I understand they'd already failed with conventional hi tech
hydroponic systems the year before. Then they had success with the autopot,
and were impressed enough with the year's yield to add another 24000 sq ft.
using the system. The EC/PH issue you mention is actually simplified to the
greatest extent - you only need to do it right when you mix your nutrient
solution in the tank - since it doesn't recirculate, you don't have to keep
monitoring or fussing with it (as you do with many other systems). Water
control - again, that is also taken care of automatically, and passively.
As much as possible, I like to stick to doing things as natural, and within
the KISS principle (Keep It Simple Stupid). So while I love computers, I'm
pretty intriqued and impressed with a hydroponic system that monitors itself
in a simple, natural way,, and keeps me from "guessing" and experimenting
with the amount of water and nutrient that each individual plant really
requires. Again, I haven't tried it yet, but things I've heard seem to
indicate far better crop production than other systems, with less human
effort and intervention. If that's the case, I think it's worth the extra
money in the long run, because we'd make it back and then some.
Jewel
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Subject: Re: Important new advances
From: "Jewel Lopez"
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 10:18:49 -0600
I don't know. I was concerned about whether or not the return water to the
fish actually had some benefit to them other than fresh water. I asked Tom
at S&S about it, and he didn't think there was a problem, and seemed to
think that the fresh water was equivelant to the filtered water through the
beds. If this isn't the case, PLEASE let me know as soon as possible
(anyone on the list). From what I presently understand, we don't need to
recycle the water to have ecological benefits. No water is wasted, no
nutrient is wasted, but rather than operating a semi-closed loop system
limited to the system, we'd be operating a "big picture" "larger scale"
semi-closed loop system even more similar to what nature does - providing
fresh water to a pond, the pond water feeding the plants, being used by the
plants and evaporating into the sky, etc.. Does that make sense?
Jewel
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Thomas
To:
Sent: Monday, October 04, 1999 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: Important new advances
> Forgot to ask - where does your filtration, nitrate removal etc for the
> fishwater occur? If you're only using the runoff from the fish tank as a
> nutrient source for your plants, aren't you missing out on one of the
> main benefits offered by aquaponics - the bioremediation offered by the
> plants?
>
> Sorry if I've misunderstood your plans.
>
> Barry
> barrythomas@crosswinds.ne
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Subject: Re:
From: Debra Jaramillo
Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 09:40:14 -0700
MCOMET@south-lewis.moric.org wrote:
> Hi All,
> Just a quick project for you. We are building a 30'X40' greenhouse here
at our school
> within the next few months (using student raised funds). We are also
pretty much
> assured that we are going to receive a grant of $2000 to equip it. WHAT
DO YOU FEEL
> IS ESSENTIAL TO EQUIP IT WITH (besides benches)?????????????
>
> Keep in mind that this will be a greenhouse/classroom and will be used for
> aquaculture, hydroponics, and traditional horticulture. Mostly research
type projects
> will be done and bedding plants to sell in the spring (if and when it ever
arrives
> again!!!)
>
> Mike
Mike I'm new at the mailing list, but it seems to me the Speraneos have
pioneered and
proven the Bioculture System is by far the most efficient WAYto go. If you
empowered your
curriculum with the Bioponis Systems, the children would then have the
creativity to apply
what they have learned and hopefully .........
Did you know 50% of the World population is Orphaned and Hungry Children.?
It is my Opinion after 7 years of proof, that it works- serve the pudding
Mike -buy the
Speraneos Manual
Sincerly,Debrah Solomon
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Subject: Re: Important new advances
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 14:52:39 -0400
I would check this out very carefully. Unfortunately it's a fairly
technical aspect. I don't think adding makeup water is equivalent to
the return fromt he grow beds because in the Speraneo's system the water
in the fish tank is rotated through the grow beds many times a day. In
your proposal you would be adding fresh water to a fairly concentrated
environment whereas in Paula and Tom's the whole tank is continually
being filtered.
Do you have "Home Aquaculture" A Guide to Backyard Fish Farming? You
can order one from altaqua@ptd.net. I glanced through it but could not
find any information related to this particular point. What you need to
know is how much make-up water you'll need to maintain decent water
quality in what is essentially a non recirculating system. You'll still
need to remove solids, etc. from the tank.
Good luck, Adriana
Jewel Lopez wrote:
>
> I don't know. I was concerned about whether or not the return water to the
> fish actually had some benefit to them other than fresh water. I asked Tom
> at S&S about it, and he didn't think there was a problem, and seemed to
> think that the fresh water was equivelant to the filtered water through the
> beds. If this isn't the case, PLEASE let me know as soon as possible
> (anyone on the list). From what I presently understand, we don't need to
> recycle the water to have ecological benefits. No water is wasted, no
> nutrient is wasted, but rather than operating a semi-closed loop system
> limited to the system, we'd be operating a "big picture" "larger scale"
> semi-closed loop system even more similar to what nature does - providing
> fresh water to a pond, the pond water feeding the plants, being used by the
> plants and evaporating into the sky, etc.. Does that make sense?
>
> Jewel
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Subject: Fish dying.
From: Bagelhole1
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 21:37:19 EDT
Dear fellow fishpeople (and vegetables),
I finally hooked up with the tanktruck
that supplies Chinatown and the Bay Area with live fish (telapia and
catfish). I bought 80 pounds of telapia (full grown). 10 have died on the
2nd day, the water is mucky. I'm trying to get the seedlings in the proper
place (2 liter plastic bottles) to help clean the water. First problem. The
slime (algae) that has formed plugged up the little doo-hickeys that pokes
into the overhead 1/2 inch tubing to let the water out and into the pop
bottles and seedlings. So I have to find doo-hickeys with a larger hole. My
ph is 6.8 (is that dangerous?). I am sinking faster than a dead fish. Right
now I'm just letting the pump run and the water to fall from the now open end
of the tubing above to help aerate the water.
Fishfully,
Tom O
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Subject: Re: Fish dying.
From: William Evans
Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 19:10:45 -0700
sounds like your DO could be higher.....an aeration emergency
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Subject: RE: Fish dying.
From: "Ronald W. Brooks"
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 22:36:19 -0400
Tom
We need a few more facts besides PH. What is the Ammonia level , Nitrate ,
Nitrite , Temperature , Dissolved Oxygen Level.
Now this sounds like a lot of tests , but if you go to the local pet store
you should be able to get a complete test kit for around $30 , of course
this does not include a dissolved O2 test , if they carry a kit it should
cost around $20.
Now describe the fishes behavior , are they spread around the pond or are
they grouped at one end , or are they at the top of the water like they are
feeding , without food present. If they are gasping at the top without any
food present this is an indication of not enough Oxygen in the water. Add an
air pump ASAP.
Now what do the fish that died look like . What does the gills look like ?
What does the pond look like ? what does the water smell like ?
Plus fill out the form below
SICK FISH QUESTIONNAIRE (instructions: fill in the blank, erase all that
don't apply)
My pond is (weeks/months/years) old
My pond is (length) x (width) x (depth) and is (gallons)
I have a (name/or kind/and size) filter
I have (# of airstones/kind of aeration) that I run (all the time/have
turned off).
The temperature of my pond is (..oF or oC)
My ammonia is (..), nitrites (..), nitrates (..), pH (..), hardness or
alkalinity (...)
I have added (new fish/new plants/stones/anything else) to the pond in the
last (day/week/month)
I (did/did not) quarantine the fish before adding them to the pond. I
(did/did not dip the plants).
I have added (amount of) (medications/conditioners/salt/anything else) to
the pond (days/weeks) ago.
I changed (amount) of water (days/months) ago.
The last time I cleaned the pond was (...).
There is (no/some/a lot) of dead leaves and crud in the bottom of the pond.
The pond has changed recently, it is (explain).
THE FISH
Below is a list of typical symptoms, add any others
My fish have been (symptom)
This started (days/weeks) ago.
I have treated them with (...)that contains (from the bottle) for (# of
days)
SYMPTOMS
Died suddenly, found floating (morning/evening), (sores/no marks) on them
gasping at surface/yawning
scraping on things/jumping
has (red/black/white/grey) (fuzzy/greasy/shiny) (dots/patches/wounds/salt
grains/streaks) on the (gill covers/front, back or tail
fins/body/head/along the lateral line)
wont eat/getting thin/bent spine
lethargic/darting/clamped fins
swimming funny (give details)/ head standing/tail down
floating at the top/sitting at the bottom/sitting on the shelf of the pond
Scales sticking out (base of tail fin/all over)/ losing scales/bulging
eye(s)
Fins are (shredding/spitting/rotting)
Changing color
Getting thin
Lump(s)
If you can catch the fish, do the physical at
(http://puregold.aquaria.net/disease/technique/technique.htm#Jo Ann's Fish
Physical)
The gills are (color)
The slime coat is (sticky, dry)
The belly is (hard/mushy/fine).
The anal port is (fine/pink/red).
The mouth is (fine/red/has white strings)
end
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Subject: Re: Fish dying.
From: "Wendy Nagurny"
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 23:08:57 -0400
O Tom. You have my sympathies. Your problem could be a lot of things, more
probably a combination of several.
>Dear fellow fishpeople (and vegetables),
> I finally hooked up with the tanktruck
>that supplies Chinatown and the Bay Area with live fish (telapia and
>catfish). I bought 80 pounds of telapia (full grown).
Were these meant for consumption? If they were, they most likely were
handled as if they only had to live long enough to make it to the head deli
fileter.
Aquatic systems have to be brought on line SLOWLY (I think you were told
this once). It takes time for the bacteria to build up enough to handle the
waste load of your fish. In your system, I would have started with either
about 50 fingerlings (preferable) or about 5 grown fish.
10 have died on the
>2nd day, the water is mucky. I'm trying to get the seedlings in the proper
>place (2 liter plastic bottles) to help clean the water.
I think you have missed something. Plants remove nitrate. Your big problem
now is ammonia. In a few days, you will have a problem with nitrite. These
are eventually converted by bacteria into nitrate for your plants. Fish can
tolerate higher nitrate levels than they can ammonia or nitrite. The
seedlings will not help you at all for now.
First problem. The
>slime (algae) that has formed plugged up the little doo-hickeys that pokes
>into the overhead 1/2 inch tubing to let the water out and into the pop
>bottles and seedlings.
Is it slime or algae? I bet it is slime. This slime is a combination of
the protein slime coats that your stressed fish shed and billions of
bacteria that are desperately trying to find a surface to hang on to. If
you have insufficient surface area for the bacteria to live (remember these
bacteria are metabolizing your fish ammonia and nitrite -- they are the good
guys) they will form thick layers on places you don't want them.
So I have to find doo-hickeys with a larger hole. My
>ph is 6.8 (is that dangerous?).
No. What is your temperature? Tilapia are tropical. They like water
around 80F. Did you float your fish to equilibrate the temp in their
transport containers before you dumped them in? Sudden temp shock is a
no-no. It causes dead fish.
I am sinking faster than a dead fish. Right
>now I'm just letting the pump run and the water to fall from the now open
end
>of the tubing above to help aerate the water.
You have NO filter?
My suggestion: get about a dozen food grade 5gal buckets and poke a bunch
of about 3/16" holes in the bottom along one edge so that you can set the
buckets along the edge of your raceway with the holey part protruding over
your water. Fill the buckets to within about 4" of the top with well washed
gravel (just large enough so it doesn't block your holes). Place a layer of
common aquarium filter floss over top. Pump your water into these
simultaneously in parallel. Adjust the water flow so that the buckets are
not retaining much water. This is an emergency trickle filter with solids
removal. As the floss gets dirty, replace it. If you need more pumps, you
will need to get them. Don't worry about solar powered for now. Just get
that water flow up! I would not think that one 1/2" line could carry enough
water volume to filter a raceway that large with that many lbs of fish in
any event.
Until you get your filter in place, change about 25% of the water daily. Be
sure the temp is similar and if you are on city water, be sure to
declorinate first.
By the way, don't feed them more than a very little bit yet. We don't want
any more waste in this system. They probably won't eat much anyhow.
Good luck,
Wendy
>
>Fishfully,
> Tom
O
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Subject: Re: Fish dying.
From: MUDDTOO
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 23:44:54 EDT
In a message dated 10/5/99 6:38:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
Bagelhole1 writes:
> Dear fellow fishpeople (and vegetables),
> I finally hooked up with the tanktruck
> that supplies Chinatown and the Bay Area with live fish (telapia and
> catfish). I bought 80 pounds of telapia (full grown). 10 have died on the
> 2nd day
The replies before mine offered great advice. If you get to the point where
you think you're way over your head and you're going to lose them all tonight
then its time to quickly pack them all in ice and recover what you can. I'd
rather you ate them then throw them out for dog food. They'd be good for the
Fish Fry you'll want to have during the Grand Opening also.
It's a shame experience can't be bought 'cause I've lost loads of money while
learning. You too it seems.
Good luck,
Joel
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