Aquaponics Digest - Thu 10/07/99
Message 1: adding fish to our botanical treatment plant
from wills/nachreiner
Message 2: grow beds/biofilters
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 3: Re: grow beds/biofilters
from "Wendy Nagurny"
Message 4: Re: adding fish to our botanical treatment plant
from "Wendy Nagurny"
Message 5: Algae,yuck
from Bagelhole1
Message 6: Re: Algae,yuck
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 7: Re: adding fish to our botanical treatment plant
from Ronald Polka
Message 8: RE: adding fish to our botanical treatment plant
from "Ronald W. Brooks"
Message 9: Fwd: Aquaculture
from Sunpeer
Message 10: Re: grow beds/biofilters
from "Barry Thomas"
Message 11: Re: Important new advances
from "Barry Thomas"
Message 12: Re: Important new advances
from "Barry Thomas"
Message 13: Re: Important new advances
from Debra Jaramillo
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| Message 1 |
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Subject: adding fish to our botanical treatment plant
From: wills/nachreiner
Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 00:44:07 -0500
We at Cedar Grove Cheese have been operating a "living machine" to clean
our wash water. Several extentions/experiments are being attempted or
planned.
1. Adding fish. If we can finish the regulatory issues about potential
release, we are interested in bluegills, talapia and coi. We need to
consider feed issues. Is there a recipe for fish food containing cheese
that would utilize our scraps, is mold a problem?) What requirements are
needed for "organic" fish? (We do make organic cheese. Any surefire ways
to keep exotics from escaping that will satisfy the DNR?
2. Plant diversification and economic value. We have a lot of tropical
plants. The plants grow like crazy and their root structure provides
several useful properties in the water cleansing. However, they have
little economic value. Perhaps with a "soil" equivalent we could harvest
the ginger roots. Calla lillies bloom too infrequently and the irises have
so far failed to blossom. We are looking for other alternatives.
Especially plants that will uptake salts and phosphorus. But we want to
maintain a root structure in the water over 1 foot deep.
3. We would like to improve the efficiency of oxygenation of the water.
Diffusers in bottoms of tanks don't seem like they are as energy efficient
as they could be. Too big of utility bills. Ideas? Thanks
Box185 Plain,Wi 53577
(608) 546-2712
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| Message 2 |
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Subject: grow beds/biofilters
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 04:54:38 -0400
> Whoa, Adriana. Your bio-filter is where your fish waste is converted to
> plant food. Why do you want to disconnect it?
Wendy,
Don't the gravel beds in the Sperraneos sytem function as the
bio-filter? So once you set up growing beds your existing biofilter
will become extraneous?
Adriana
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| Message 3 |
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Subject: Re: grow beds/biofilters
From: "Wendy Nagurny"
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 08:41:12 -0400
>
>
>> Whoa, Adriana. Your bio-filter is where your fish waste is converted to
>> plant food. Why do you want to disconnect it?
>
>Wendy,
>
>Don't the gravel beds in the Sperraneos sytem function as the
>bio-filter? So once you set up growing beds your existing biofilter
>will become extraneous?
>
>Adriana
>
Yes they do. I would use a gravel trickle or ebb/flow
(preferable)biofilter right from the start as my biofilter. If you don't
have room/funds for a bank of shallow grow-bed type bio-filters, I would put
in one big deep one at first, then add shallower ones for growbeds later,
but still leaving your initial one in the system. There is no such thing as
too much filter. (There can be too many plants for the nutrients. The
plants won't do well then.) Disrupting the biofilter after your tank is
stable and is holding a moderate to heavy waste load is asking for trouble
i.e. dead fish. Even if you plan to run through hydro type tubes, I would
have one big gravel biofilter. I would avoid commercial biofilters,
especially ones with powered moving parts.
I think starting with a hydroponics system and trying to add aquaculture
later would be difficult. You will have a nutrient "dead" period until the
nutrients build up in the water and I don't think one can be sure that the
commercial nutrient plant mixes would be safe for the fish since there would
probably be a bit of residue in the hydro system at change over unless you
plan to tear down the hydro portion and clean it first.
Wendy
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| Message 4 |
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Subject: Re: adding fish to our botanical treatment plant
From: "Wendy Nagurny"
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 10:02:59 -0400
>We at Cedar Grove Cheese have been operating a "living machine" to clean
>our wash water. Several extentions/experiments are being attempted or
>planned.
>1. Adding fish. If we can finish the regulatory issues about potential
>release, we are interested in bluegills, talapia and coi.
I would not attempt to raise bluegills, tilapia and Koi in the same set-up.
Bluegills and koi are cold water species. Tilapia are tropical. No matter
where you set the temp, someone will be unhappy with you.
We need to
>consider feed issues. Is there a recipe for fish food containing cheese
>that would utilize our scraps, is mold a problem?)
Fish like cheese. They will take it right out of your hands. Makes a good
fishing bait especially for catfish. I don't know how well they will thrive
on it. Never fed much of it to them because it makes the water nasty. I
wouldn't worry too much about the mold cultures. Molds are everywhere
anyhow. Try it on a small scale and include some greens to balance the
diet. I would include LOTS of filter feeders like clams and mussels because
of the mess. Crayfish like cheese too. So do turtles. I wonder what
cheese-fed fresh water clams taste like. Sounds like a fun experiment.
What requirements are
>needed for "organic" fish? (We do make organic cheese.
I think the "jury" is still out on that issue.
Any surefire ways
>to keep exotics from escaping that will satisfy the DNR?
Someone else needs to answer this.
>2. Plant diversification and economic value. We have a lot of tropical
>plants. The plants grow like crazy and their root structure provides
>several useful properties in the water cleansing. However, they have
>little economic value. Perhaps with a "soil" equivalent we could harvest
>the ginger roots. Calla lilies bloom too infrequently and the irises have
>so far failed to blossom.
Iris need a dormant period to bloom. If they are kept in a greenhouse
environment all year, they won't bloom. Some varieties need cold dormancy,
some will accept a drought period as their dormancy. Some will bloom for
both. I apparently have some that belong to the latter group. After this
summers drought, some of my iris are blooming again. Last night we got our
first frost. It looks funny to see frost on the irises. Also, if they are
planted too deeply they won't bloom. I believe callas also need a dormant
period to bloom their best.
Have you tried water lilies or lotus? Some varieties have a good market.
Lotus seed pods also have a market. Have you tried water sprite or any of
the other plants sold in the aquarium trade. Most are bog plants anyhow.
Madagascar lace plants bring a good price and have a reasonable demand.
We are looking for other alternatives.
>Especially plants that will uptake salts and phosphorus. But we want to
>maintain a root structure in the water over 1 foot deep.
>3. We would like to improve the efficiency of oxygenation of the water.
>Diffusers in bottoms of tanks don't seem like they are as energy efficient
>as they could be. Too big of utility bills. Ideas? Thanks
How about a standard pond fountain. You know the ones that spray water up
into the air in pretty patterns. They will provide better aeration than
underwater air diffusers.
Wendy
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| Message 5 |
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Subject: Algae,yuck
From: Bagelhole1
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 13:55:25 EDT
Thank you all for you generous advice. One major problem, I see, is the algae
is taking over. Its sticking to the plastic, blocking the pump, and the holes
in the 1/2 inch tubing overhead which is supposed to let the fish water come
down into the plastic pop bottles holding the plants. So, does anyone have
any idea how to stop the algae?
Thanks,
Tom O
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| Message 6 |
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Subject: Re: Algae,yuck
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 14:07:42 -0400
Tom are your tanks in sun? Cover them. The fish don't need the sun and
the algae loves it. Unfortunately your soda bottles, being translucent
or clear also are little algae factories. Floating a mesh bag of straw,
barley if you can get it, will work to prevent algae in the future. If
I were you I would do a 100% changeout of the water in the system,
isolate the growing beds from the fish and run a chlorine mixture
through your pipes to kill the existing algae. This implies taking out
your seedlings or at least disconnecting all of the piping to get it
cleaned up. Is your pipe clear or standard PVC? You also might
consider painting your soda bottles. Common recommendations are a coat
of balck paint underneath and one of white over the top to block light.
Remember, you are learning TONS from this and it will serve you well in
the future.
Adriana
> Thank you all for you generous advice. One major problem, I see, is the algae
> is taking over. Its sticking to the plastic, blocking the pump, and the holes
> in the 1/2 inch tubing overhead which is supposed to let the fish water come
> down into the plastic pop bottles holding the plants.
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| Message 7 |
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Subject: Re: adding fish to our botanical treatment plant
From: Ronald Polka
Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 12:05:52 -0600
At 10:02 AM 10/7/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>>We at Cedar Grove Cheese have been operating a "living machine" to clean
>>our wash water. Several extentions/experiments are being attempted or
>>planned.
SNIP
>Any surefire ways
>>to keep exotics from escaping that will satisfy the DNR?
To answer this definitively you will need to check out your state
regulations. In New Mexico we addressed this by convincing the state Fish
and Wildlife Dept that our facility was completely isolated from the local
watershed. It is a closed system where waste water goes to an evaporation
pit. This is easy to do in a desert environment where perennial streams are
the exception. We are located about three miles from the Rio Grande across
desert basin so the chance of accidental release is quite remote. If your
system waste water goes to municipal waste water lines, storm sewer lines,
or a natural body of water there is no way that you can prevent release at
some point. Sooner or later something will escape, especially fry. To give
you an example I have had tilapia fry swim through a subsurface flow
artificial wetland and emerge into the sump at the far end.
>>3. We would like to improve the efficiency of oxygenation of the water.
>>Diffusers in bottoms of tanks don't seem like they are as energy efficient
>>as they could be. Too big of utility bills. Ideas? Thanks
>From an electrical use point of view it is more efficient to aerate by
pumping air into water via airstones or airlifts than to pump water into
air with fountains. If water needs to be pumped into the air for operations
than use spray heads designed specifically for aeration or cooling where
you have a conical spray pattern with small droplets at a low pressure drop
to maximize your aeration per kilowatt.
Have you looked at your 5 day BOD in these tanks? Is there something there
that is eating your oxygen as fast as you can get it into the system? If so
than you may have to address that issue separately.
Ron Polka
Southwest Technology Development Institute
New Mexico State University
Box 30001, Dept 3SOL
Las Cruces, NM 88003
rpolka@nmsu.edu
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| Message 8 |
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Subject: RE: adding fish to our botanical treatment plant
From: "Ronald W. Brooks"
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 16:11:17 -0400
-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: aquaponics
-> [mailto:aquaponics]On Behalf Of wills/nachreiner
-> Sent: Thursday, October 07, 1999 1:44 AM
-> To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
-> Subject: adding fish to our botanical treatment plant
->
-> 1. Any surefire ways
-> to keep exotics from escaping that will satisfy the DNR?
Usually a three stage drain , using a gravel sump then flow into a grass
type dry sink.
The best way is to contact the Wisconsin DNR and ask them what they want to
see
-> 2. Plant diversification and economic value.
How about adding Taro and water chestnuts and maybe a water spinach that
would expand into the Chinese food market.
Papyrus is also a good plant that is in demand by florists
then there is all the pond plants that can be grown and sold to ponders or
pond stores , cardinal flower , arrow leaf , Japanese water iris ,
variegated reed , etc..
Ron
The One Who Walks Two Paths
ICQ 44271371
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| Message 9 |
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Subject: Fwd: Aquaculture
From: Sunpeer
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 20:58:13 EDT
FYI ,this is from the list at cornell univ.
In a message dated 10/7/99 12:33:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
cac29@cornell.edu writes:
<<
I received the following information from Gordon Mengel at The National
Council
for Agricultural Education. Please pass it on to anyone whom you believe may
be interested. Thanks, Carol Conroy
>Subject:
>Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 08:36:23 -0500
>X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0)
>
>To: Supporters of Secondary Aquaculture Programs (Please relay to secondary
>teachers)
>From: Gordon J. Mengel, Special Projects Director, The Council
>A (National)AQUACULTURE COMPETITION has been organized for SECONDARY SCHOOL
>STUDENTS by AQUACULTURE AMERICA 2000 and its sponsors, the US Chapter of the
>World Aquaculture Society, National Aquaculture Association and the US
>Aquaculture Suppliers Association. (Announcement received from USDA-CSREES
>10/05/99)
>AQUACULTURE AMERICA 2000 has developed a contest for secondary school
>(grades 9-12) aquaculture programs to compete for the award for the best
>project for 1999.
>BEST SECONDARY SCHOOL AQUACULTURE PROJECT CONTEST: The selected winner will
>receive a trip to New Orleans for AQUACULTURE AMERICA 2000 (February 2-5,
>2000) for the teacher and top student with airfare, hotel and registration
>provided. Applications due November 1, 1999!!
>CONTEST RULES AND APPLICATION can be found at the National Council for
>Agricultural Education's web site(www.teamaged.org).
>Click on Aquaculture Education Logo.
>Click on Announcements.
Carol A. Conroy, Ph.D.
Asst. Professor and Coordinator
Agricultural, Extension, and Adult Education
Cornell University
425 Kennedy Hall
Ithaca, NY 14853
(607) 255-7381, FAX: (607) 255-7905
e-mail: cac29@cornell.edu
Seek to give voice to your intuition!
>>
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| Message 10 |
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Subject: Re: grow beds/biofilters
From: "Barry Thomas"
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 02:56:34 +0100
Hi Wendy,
> Yes they do. I would use a gravel trickle or ebb/flow
> (preferable)biofilter right from the start as my biofilter. If you
don't
> have room/funds for a bank of shallow grow-bed type bio-filters, I
would put
> in one big deep one at first, then add shallower ones for growbeds
later,
> but still leaving your initial one in the system.
Do you know (or can you point to info) how the two filter types compare?
With a "big, deep" biofilter aren't the bacteria lower down not only
getting less to eat but sitting in wastes produced by the ones higher
up? Shallower filters with the plant roots in amongst the filter media
and able to remove the wastes (now nutrient) as they're produced seem
worth aiming for even if they do take up more space?
Plants seem to be able to affect their rhyzospheres to a significant
degree, is this helpful or harmful in this situation?
Not arguing - interested. :)
Barry
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| Message 11 |
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Subject: Re: Important new advances
From: "Barry Thomas"
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 02:19:07 +0100
Hi Jewel,
>> Still to consider is if it would be better to take the
> > raw water from the pond into the standard S&S type growing beds and
let the
> > bacteria do there work there, or hope that his system will be good
enought
> > to feed the plants.
> >
> > Jewel
The idea seems reasonable to me - the fact that none of the experts has
savaged it yet could be a good sign? :)
But (sorry) although the gravel bed gives somewhere for helpful "things"
to live and seems better than without, can it produce enough to be
worthwhile? I'm not saying it can't but there are a few things that I
would want to know before giving it GH space and starting digging. I
suppose it depends on just how intensive a system you want. Can't really
offer any answers I'm afraid (big surprise!) just more questions - hope
they are of some help in your decision:
What area of the pond is covered by rafts? With the rafts (well, the
plants on them) absorbing oxy as well as reducing the surface area of
your ponds, when does aeration become necessary?
As has been mentioned recently, solids act as a big oxy sink - won't
this make the problem worse?
If transport of wastes/nutrients between each of your "symbionts" (fish,
bacteria, plants etc) is by diffusion only, doesn't this put a fairly
low limit on performance? If you look at systems in terms of simple
creatures, a circulatory system of some form generally makes things
happen more quickly and keeps their components better supplied with
things they need and ensures wastes don't hang around for too long. The
creature/system must use some of its energy to do so but the benefits
seem to outweigh the cost.
Some of the root systems I've seen from hydro grown plants have been
substantial to say the least - what effect (if any) might this have on
your fish (or vice versa)?
So, I suppose it boils down to: How much of an increase in plant/fish
density does this offer over just an unassisted, natural pond? Did the
guy you spoke to give you any idea? Anyone know or care to hazard a
guess?
If you need any more questions, let me know. ;)
Barry
barrythomas@btinternet.com
(crosswinds temporarily down)
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| Message 12 |
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Subject: Re: Important new advances
From: "Barry Thomas"
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 02:59:42 +0100
Hi Debrah,
> That system is being done and pioneered by Dr. John Todd Living
>Technologies --livingmachines.com
> If none of you have heard about this check it out, Dr. Todd and the
> Speraneos are of the same kind!
I checked out the website but it was somewhat lacking in hard info - not
surprising if they're selling systems/books etc - but it seemed that the
ponds they use are for remediation of wastes produced in other systems?
Does it all still work ok if the fish are actually in the pond?
Barry
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| Message 13 |
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Subject: Re: Important new advances
From: Debra Jaramillo
Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 19:13:05 -0700
Barry Thomas wrote:
> Hi Debrah,
>
> > That system is being done and pioneered by Dr. John Todd Living
> >Technologies --livingmachines.com
> > If none of you have heard about this check it out, Dr. Todd and the
> > Speraneos are of the same kind!
>
> I checked out the website but it was somewhat lacking in hard info - not
> surprising if they're selling systems/books etc - but it seemed that the
> ponds they use are for remediation of wastes produced in other systems?
> Does it all still work ok if the fish are actually in the pond?
>
> Barry
Yes - seek and you will find- how about asking those that are presently
using the system. how Hard must it Get!! Debrah
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