Aquaponics Digest - Tue 11/16/99
Message 1: Re: Fiddleheads
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 2: Re: Details, but Gentlemen, & is this the place?
from Jim Sealy Jr
Message 3: Re: Details, but Gentlemen, & is this the place?
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 4: Re: Details, but Gentlemen, & is this the place?
from "TGTX"
Message 5: Re: Details, but Gentlemen, & is this the place?
from Jim Sealy Jr
Message 6: Re: Totally Jazzed!
from "Barry Thomas"
Message 7: Re: Totally Jazzed!
from "Barry Thomas"
Message 8: Re: raft culture aquaponics setup
from John Shannonhouse
Message 9: Re: Totally Jazzed!
from Ronald Polka
Message 10: Re: Fiddleheads
from "Jewel" <1mastiff@amigo.net>
Message 11: Re: Fiddleheads
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 12: Re: heating revisted
from Ronald Polka
Message 13: Re: heating revisted
from PDOSSJR
Message 14: Awww! Fiddle Faddle!
from Bill
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Subject: Re: Fiddleheads
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 05:13:14 -0500
Hi William,
> I'd be interested in some
> web sites to identify which type of fern we have here.
Start at Keith's Fern Page http://www.lm.net.au/~kerogers/index.html,
then go to
his great great page of fern links, including a list server:
http://www.lm.net.au/~kerogers/page4.html
I suspect one of the "fernies" could help you to ID the ferns that you
have in Hawaii.
> it's available year round.
Are they available commercially? Wild harvested or cultivated?
Adriana
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Subject: Re: Details, but Gentlemen, & is this the place?
From: Jim Sealy Jr
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 05:53:02 -0600
I'm pretty quiet on list these days due to actually Working my tail off,
but This hit close to home ... Probably because I think of aquaponics as
a '_System_' All of the pieces have to be there or else you have
something else. I can (and do) grow tomatoes in a run to waste system
involving manure and worm casting tea.. I can (and do) grow lettuce in a
pure 100% synthetic chemically enriched hydroponic operation.. I can
raise catfish, tilapia, and hybrid bream in raceways, tanks, cages, and
open ponds and use a managed marsh to clear the excess nitrogen and
phosphates from the effluent, I can heat summer crops in a greenhouse in
winter and cool fall crops in July with a ground water source heat pump,
but combine most of these and you have aquaponics. Leave out any one of
them and you have something less..
If we start trying to figure out what to allow and what to censor, we'll
just have to meet in a different coffee shop down the road a ways. I
promise to not wax rhapsodic about my new 10 kW LP generator, and the
480 Sq. Ft. of new solar collectors I'm waiting to install before winter
really sets in, or about how our 2 new greenhouse cats (as opposed to
green housecats?) are developing a practical fishing method for luring
my newly acquired wild koi within reach. Then again I just might.. Those
2 cats rescued my crop when every field mouse within 10 miles must've
decided my greenhouses were their new winter paradise, so I guess
they're part of the system now as well.. It's almost 6 AM here now, so
time to go fill the feeders.., and run back-up on the computers, and try
to actually spend some time reading the DO, PH, temp printouts from the
last few days... Then go see Alvin at the new steakhouse about his ideas
for.....
Gee, I guess steakhouses and casinos are part of the system too, and
that new sushi bar I've been meaning to talk to.......
Oh well...
Jim
Deercreek Farms
Bill wrote:
> I'd like to see fish here, collectors
> there, associated systems another spot, or something. Or would we dilute
> ourselves too much? (No pun intended.)
>
> Host, all? No ego here. But I'd like to pursue this train further, however,
> feel guilty that others may feel their main interest pushed aside.
> Your friend, I like this bunch... Bill
>
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Subject: Re: Details, but Gentlemen, & is this the place?
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 07:12:23 -0500
Hi Jim,
You have been mighty quiet. It's good to hear from you.
> > Host, all? No ego here. But I'd like to pursue this train further, however,
> > feel guilty that others may feel their main interest pushed aside.
Bill, I think we all agree that it would be great to have a set of
archives, FAQ's and data bases for all aspects of aquaponics.
Unfortunately most of the members of this list have full time businesses
to tend to and these luxuries fall by the wayside. If you have the
time, energy and inclination, I say "GO FOR IT!" Do not misinterpret
silence for diapproval, maybe just a little bit of guilt for not having
the time, energy or inclination.
Paula, perhaps we could add a simple link at the bottom of the
list-serve to an area where those who have the time, energy etc. can
post their findings. Of course that implies finding a web-server to
load them onto. Bill, are you game?
Adriana
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Subject: Re: Details, but Gentlemen, & is this the place?
From: "TGTX"
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 06:14:53 -0600
> Hi Jim,
> You have been mighty quiet. It's good to hear from you.
>
Ditto that. Howdy Mr. Jim.
Ted
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Subject: Re: Details, but Gentlemen, & is this the place?
From: Jim Sealy Jr
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 06:44:32 -0600
Hi Back at ya Ted, and Adriana, And everybody else too.
OK... So I hung around for some more coffee. Buncha early birds around
here it seems. Looks like I have 1213 unread messages in this folder
so I'm a little behind on reading this group. Probably post some way
out of date answers as soon as pond temps get down around 55F.
Yah, things got pretty weird around here after my brother broke his neck
a while back. We're all about recovered now, but playing catch-up around
the farm and construction biz. For the record, he's made a ~98% recovery
thanks to some little pieces of titanium and a _good_surgeon. Didn't
hurt any that he's tough as nails too. ;)
Jim
PS: For some of the new faces, I'm trained as a Solar engineer,
practicing Manufacturing Engineer and designer, and am involved in my
family's construction and commercial farming biz.. Maybe a biography
page is in order while somebody is working on the list website. Part of
the reason I peaked back in was on account of Dr. James E (Dr. Jim)
Rakocy. One of his papers * found its way to the top of my desk after an
argument about what to do to diversify a bit next summer, and I figured
I better see if ya'll were still debating about glow in the dark GE
nasturtiums or or sod yurts or blackened cajun style tilapia or whatever
these days.
JS
* = Pond Culture of Tilapia (James E. Rakocy and Andrew S. McGinty, SRAC
pub #280, July '89)
TGTX wrote:
>
> > Hi Jim,
> > You have been mighty quiet. It's good to hear from you.
> >
>
> Ditto that. Howdy Mr. Jim.
>
> Ted
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Subject: Re: Totally Jazzed!
From: "Barry Thomas"
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 17:51:28 -0000
Ron,
> The solar constant at the mean sun-earth distance is 1353 W/M2 which
is
> 428 Btu/ft2 hr. This is extraterrestial radiation at a mean distance
of one
> astronomical unit.
I had heard that, at the equator, the amount of solar radiation hitting
ground was roughly 1 kW/m2. This seem about right?
(After last time, wild horses wouldn't have got this figure out of me
before some confirmation... :) )
Temperate climate might average just over half of this?
Barry
barrythomas@crosswinds.net
PS If anyone has, say, a table of average solar energy at a number of
different points on the earth (major cities?), _please_ post or mail.
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Subject: Re: Totally Jazzed!
From: "Barry Thomas"
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 14:37:14 -0000
Wow, where's this been hiding for the last 20 hours?
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Thomas
To:
Sent: Monday, November 15, 1999 5:51 PM
Subject: Re: Totally Jazzed!
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Subject: Re: raft culture aquaponics setup
From: John Shannonhouse
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 09:21:13 -0600
Hello,
>Jim Rakocy of the University of the Virgin Islands and head of the
>extension service in St. Croix is the guru of floating raft systems.
>Check his site at http://rps.uvi.edu/AES/Aquaculture/aquaponics.html
>If you e-mail him he will send you additional information.
Thanks. This web site, especially, contains the exact information I
was looking for. I enjoyed my brief revisit to this mailing list, but the
traffic is a mite too high for me to sort through each day. Bye!
John Shannonhouse
Department of Genetics
University of Wisconsin-Madison
jlshanno@students.wisc.edu
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Subject: Re: Totally Jazzed!
From: Ronald Polka
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:39:53 -0700
>
>I had heard that, at the equator, the amount of solar radiation hitting
>ground was roughly 1 kW/m2. This seem about right?
>
>Temperate climate might average just over half of this?
>
>Barry
>barrythomas@crosswinds.net
>
>PS If anyone has, say, a table of average solar energy at a number of
>different points on the earth (major cities?), _please_ post or mail.
>
Barry
The maximum instantaneous radiation hitting a surface is dependant upon
time of year, time of day, latitude, altitude, and clearness index Kt. On a
tilted surface such as a solar collector pointing at the sun this value can
approach 1,000 W/M2, even in temperate latitudes. Here in New Mexico I have
seen normal radiation, receiving surface pointing toward the sun, exceed
1,100 W/m2 on a good clear day with the sun high in the sky. For most
design work daily totals are more appropriate unless one is looking to do
transient simulation analyses of solar systems.
For solar data try your local library. Or the following web sites for
quick information.
US solar radiation map.
http://www.rt66.com/rbahm/gjann30.gif
Monitored solar radiation databases
http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/
NREL Reneweable Resorce Datacenter
http://rredc.nrel.gov/
Govt and academic solar links
http://www.rt66.com/rbahm/segovt.htm
Another solar link
http://www.solartronic.com/sr.htm
Ron Polka
Southwest Technology Development Institute
New Mexico State University
Box 30001, Dept 3SOL
Las Cruces, NM 88003
rpolka@nmsu.edu
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Subject: Re: Fiddleheads
From: "Jewel" <1mastiff@amigo.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 12:25:16 -0700
> they are the unfurled fronds of ferns
I tried to say that 5 times fast. Once was bad enough. Anyway, I haven't
looked into growing them, but I've eaten them both in NS and Vermont - they
were cooked like onion rings. Very nice with a good dip. But I think they
are furled, not unfurled.
They seem like the baby stage of it's growth, but that's just based on me
chomping down on them.
I assume someone is growing them in Vermont. If I can remember the name of
the restaurant , I'll let you know.
Jewel
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| Message 11 |
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Subject: Re: Fiddleheads
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 14:43:44 -0500
You're right, they are the furled fronds of ferns:>)...The bulb supplier
that I listed earlier sent me more information:
"Van Bourgondien Bros."
"Ferns are sent as bareroot. All bareroot perennials could take 1-3
years
before fully established."
Adriana
Jewel wrote:
>
> > they are the unfurled fronds of ferns
>
> I assume someone is growing them in Vermont. If I can remember the name of
> the restaurant , I'll let you know.
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Subject: Re: heating revisted
From: Ronald Polka
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 15:12:11 -0700
At 05:38 PM 11/15/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>The Solviva book explains a couple of systems that were actually put into
>place and operated successfully by the author, in her New England
>greenhouse. I believe she sells plans also. One was running black poly
>tubing in the rafters of the greenhouse, and the other was a "water wall" of
>heavy duty black poly bags - this was pumped to a storage tank for release
>when heat was needed. It was essentially turning the greenhouse into a
>solar collector "shell". We will be trying lining the back of our
>greenhouse with recycled/used commercial solar collectors, and pumping to a
>storage tank/hydronic heating system. If we could do it passively though,
>using the thermosiphon concept, it would be great. If anyone knows how that
>could really be acheived, please let me know.
>Jewel
>
Jewel
In order to construct a thermosyphoning solar collector you must plumb it
so the collector outlet manifold is below the storage tank. Generally the
storage tank inlet is on the top of the tank and the outlet to the
collectors is at the bottom of the tank. A way to visualize it is to think
of the collector/tank plumbing as one large loop. When the water in the
collectors heats and becomes less dense than the water in the storage tank
then a thermosyphon effect occurs when the density differential overcomes
the frictional forces in the plumbing. Ideally the heat transfer fluid
should move into the storage tank slowly as plug flow where there is no
mixing in the tank. I know you are in a cold climate so night time freezing
will be an issue that you have to think about.
In designing a multicollector thermosyphoning system you will need to be
concerned about balancing flows across the collectors. A rule of thumb for
balancing solar collector flow is to make sure that the calculated pressure
drop across the inlet and outlet manifolds is no more than 5 % of the
pressure drop across the solar collectors. Size up the manifolds until you
achieve this 1:20 ratio of pressure drops. It is not hard to get to this
ratio, you just need to know what the pressure drop across the collector is
and assume a flowrate through the collectors. If you are using salvaged
collectors try to balance the flows between collectors. If they are
different this may cause flow irregularities, this will degrade system
performance somewhat.
Ron Polka
Southwest Technology Development Institute
New Mexico State University
Box 30001, Dept 3SOL
Las Cruces, NM 88003
rpolka@nmsu.edu
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Subject: Re: heating revisted
From: PDOSSJR
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 19:13:24 EST
Jewel or anyone interested,
You might check this out on "Passive and Active Solar Hot Water Systems "
http://www.ncsc.ncsu.edu/04pasdhw.htm
Paul
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Subject: Awww! Fiddle Faddle!
From: Bill
Date: 16 Nov 99 21:36:42 PST
>>This, isn't so hard, after all.
*Now I know why I didn't do this a looong time ago.
>>These numbers seem to be causing confusion... total radiation integrate
d...
an entire day... In Florida you will probaby not see... solar radiation..
2E
>360 Btu/ft2 hr.
>>The solar constant at the mean sun-earth distance is 1353 W/M2 which is
428 Btu/ft2 hr. This is extraterrestial radiation at a mean distance of one
astronomical unit. *[Sun to Earth distance]
>>... tilt angle of the collector can increase... radiation... received.
The angle can be set to deliver maximum energy in the winter (more vertical)
*[or Alaska, Northern lattitudes] or a more horizontal angle will increase the
yearly total output.
*Thanks dude. At 2AM I was late & it was tired. :>) Found another smaller
mistake too. Did lose 2 emails in cache today, so will recap reply & locate
them later.
*Using 20% loss (10-15% to get thru atmosphere 2 old books said) you get
a little over 1000W/Ft^2, or 340 Btu/Ft^2. Increasing to 4+8 or 12 Ft^2
collectoe area, you heat 1600 gal from 50 to 80 in about 90 days at 4 hrs
sun @ day. If nothing else, your heat is free, once attained.
I'd like to pursue this further, however, after sauteeing ferns I can no
longer feel guilty. Sorry. lol
Dancing Fish???
Bill
P.S. Ron, I was teasing someone that if I accepted the Btu figures given
carte blanche and crunched numbers in a hurry, someone was sure to research it
and set me straight! Indirectly achieving the desired result, getting quanitative
to go with qualitative! LOL Thanks much!
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