Aquaponics Digest - Thu 12/02/99
Message 1: Organic Heating
from Bill
Message 2: Redina
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 3: Fwd. RE: Greenhouse heat
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 4: RE: pin co-op
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 5: Re: using fish effluent
from Fred Chambers
Message 6: Re: using fish effluent
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 7: Re: Free Greenhouse Heat ?
from Vik Olliver
Message 8: Re: Free Greenhouse Heat ?
from LEBO714
Message 9: Aloha
from "KevinLReed"
Message 10: Re: Aloha
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 11: remove
from "Bart Payne, Jr."
Message 12: Re: Aloha
from "Sam Levy"
Message 13: Re: Fw: Greenwater Culture in Israel.
from "Sam Levy"
Message 14: Re: using fish effluent
from Vik Olliver
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| Message 1 |
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Subject: Organic Heating
From: Bill
Date: 1 Dec 99 23:09:49 PST
>Subject: Free Greenhouse Heat ?
>a new method of decomposing landfill material at an =
accelerated rate.
>They also had a smokestack tube stuck in the ground which
was spewing 150 degree smoke into the 70 degree air temp.
>I thought that this (smokestack tube) might be a good method
of heating a greenhouse (with beneficial CO2 gasses as well).
>Anyone know anything else about this method ?
It requires a fairly heavy organics concentration.
It's simple composting. MAny composters with big piles
(say 6'x6'x6')insert 'air-rods' by adding perforated drain
pipe or like. Coldframes used to be built on a 3 foot stack of manure, h=
ay,
and wetted a certain amount, for a month + of real heat in snowy areas.
One of the predominant greenhouse gases will be methane. =
You could get more heating than you bargained for,
in a very large and unexpected way. The CO2 in an anaerobic
digester (sewage) is about 30% Methane about 60.
Aerobic method will oxidize some methane, but a lot is left.
The same airing method, minus the water (since it's there)
is used for composting the alraedy 'digested' sewage sludge.
Applying this to landfills, requires the right landfill material (organic=
s)but
isn't too new. Just recently more cost effective
due to landfill moritoriums. If you get a concentrated batch
of organics, like manure, you can achieve heating several ways.
Mother Earth has some info in back issues.
Wecome new guys!
Miss you,
"TGTX"
Keep a diary of your exploits for our edification?
Best of fortune!
Bill
____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm=
ail.netscape.com.
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| Message 2 |
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Subject: Redina
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 03:55:46 -0500
OK, that's two votes for Redina. I think that I have determined that
glass filters a different spectrum of UV than plastic greenhouse
coverings so that may be part of my coloration problem. In my next life
I will probably go with plastic for this reason.
If anybody has an interested kid this would make a great science fair
project - The Effect of Different Coverings on Leaf Coloration. They
could compare no cover, glass, different grades of shade cloth,
greenhouse plastic and regular plastic. Any takers?
> I also like the Redina - it regrows quickly and was a good producer for us.
> The most vibrant reds came through the winter, but even the less dark red is
> a very attractive contrast lettuce.
Speaking of regrowth, I'm finding that my greens are ready to cut faster
than normal this time of year but re-growth is very slow. Is this
typical of this time of year?
Adriana
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| Message 3 |
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Subject: Fwd. RE: Greenhouse heat
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 08:34:28 -0600
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 21:39:37 -0500
To: snsaquasys@townsqr.com
From: Virginia Salares
Subject: greenhouse heat
Re heating the greenhouse with a compost heap or landfill. Decomposition
in a compost pile is due to the action of molds. There are molds that are
thermophilic (thrive at higher temperatures). Breathing moldy air is
undesirable for a number of reasons -due to the mold spores, mycotoxins
(similaar to aflatoxins) and moldy volatiles (the musty smell). Health
effects of exposure to molds range from allergenic to chronic. In fact, it
is advisable to wear a dust mask while stirring the compost outside. It is
not a good idea to compost indoors. The risks from landfills include the
above and toxic gases. Fish may be a good indicator of the effects of
toxic gases but not necessarily of the molds.
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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| Message 4 |
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Subject: RE: pin co-op
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 10:11:34 -0600
At 03:28 PM 12/01/1999 -0500, Ron Two Paths wrote:
>Paula
>
>Can you give contact info about getting the pins, or do you need a large
>order. I might be willing to order a large number and do a co-op type thing
>if needed .
Ron - If you'll contact Joe Myers (who I've
just subscribed to the list, BTW), he'll have the company and contact info -
maybe the two of you can work out something and then let the list know.
Thanks for the offer.
Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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| Message 5 |
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Subject: Re: using fish effluent
From: Fred Chambers
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 09:11:55 -0800
Hello all,
> The question is: organically how can I get much higher yields, since the
> prices are only 15-20% higher, but the yields are at least 50% less! [that
One suggestion is to grow more than carp in your ponds. Read the papers
by Ana Milstein. When she cultures tilapia with carp, her fish yeilds
increase significantly on the same feed ration. Taking the fact that 80%
of world aquaculture is polyculture in warm water, Milstein looked at food
webs in low-input aquaculture, and found that some species synergize.
In a nutshell, she found:
Silver carp gleen the large algae from the pond, and keep the plankton in a
high growth rate;
Tilapia encourage small phytoplankton, which eventually settle out of the
water column
Common carps provide at least half of their food from the pond bottom;
Energy from the sun can enhance natural food supply;
Balanced polyculture minimizes antagonism and increases synergy;
In my experience in natural systems, many fish species coexist in the same
water body. To optimize aquatic output, it is best to mimic the natural
system with a polyculture. That's what we try to do at the Lyle Center for
Regenerative Studies.
http://www.csupomona.edu/~crs/
That's my 2-cents
Fred
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Subject: Re: using fish effluent
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 11:58:49 -0600
At 08:34 PM 12/01/1999 +0200, M. Brody wrote for Alon:
>The question is: organically how can I get much higher yields, since the
>prices are only 15-20% higher, but the yields are at least 50% less! [that
>hurts the pocket] One of the main problems in organic farming is a lack of
>NO3 sources, most of the fertilizers appear in the form of guano which is
>mostly ammonia based and easily can cause salinization in too high a
>dosage. Maybe the fish effluent could be what I am looking for.
You've received good information from several people. The one thing I'd
like to suggest is that you carefully analyze your set-up to minimize your
costs.
>I have a 50 m3 trickle filter and an
>O2 maker [both of which use about 150 USD of electricity /month. In terms
>of reducing that cost, I'm planning a windmill O2 maker which in the long
>run will save money by reducing the electricity bill.
If your trickle filter were replaced with a growbed system, the cost of
running the extra filter machinery could be eliminated. Properly designed,
you could enhance your O2 gain at the same time.
> One of the main problems in organic farming is a lack of
>NO3 sources, most of the fertilizers appear in the form of guano which is
>mostly ammonia based and easily can cause salinization in too high a
>dosage. Maybe the fish effluent could be what I am looking for.
Probably is --- can you give us a little more detail about your system; i.e,
total equipment, step-by-step movement of the water, whether you are
completely recirculating or using a run-to-waste or run-to-outside growing
then run-to-waste? Many of these things will affect the total operating
cost and efficiency of the system.
We, like Ted, use a gravel bed system, recirculating the water to eliminate
excess water use. With the available media you have, is there any material
that could be substituted? I'm assuming you have sand, but we've generally
found that fine sand tends to pack down too readily to be efficient.
Look forward to hearing more from you.
Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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Subject: Re: Free Greenhouse Heat ?
From: Vik Olliver
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 08:02:38 +1200
LEBO714 wrote:
> I thought that this (smokestack tube) might be a good method
> of heating a greenhouse (with beneficial CO2 gasses as well).
> They use this method to two or three times in the same ground
> and thus process much more landfill in a given space.
> When they are done with a site they just stop the additional
> air and water and the microbes die back to their natural level.
>
> Anyone know anything else about this method ?
The concept of using fermenting leaves and horsedung to heat cold-frames
goes back to before the French revolution. I've not heard of it being
done quite this way before though.
Vik :v)
--
A member of The Olliver Family http://olliver.penguinpowered.com
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| Message 8 |
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Subject: Re: Free Greenhouse Heat ?
From: LEBO714
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:52:53 EST
Hello All,
Thank you for your responses to the Free Greenhouse heat
question. The cumulative information is valuable.
How about this :
1. If the gasses emitted are 60 % methane, 40 % CO2
they cannot be used inside the greenhouse or breathed.
2.. The organic refuse could be stored in metal 55 gallon
drums, additional water and air could be piped in to accelerate
the decomposition (per last post) and heat up the metal barrels
while the CO2 and methane are piped out to the outside of
greenhouse.
3. A fan blowing against the metal barrels would distribute the heat
around the greenhouse, similar to the wood burning oven heaters.
Questions :
* Can the methane in any way be burned (to form additional heat)
or can it be separated from the CO2. I remember seeing something
from a third world country where they collected human waste,
stored it it a huge plastic bag, and used the emitted methane
to run a bunsen burner which they cooked with.
* If the decomposed material gets to a temperature of 150 degrees
how hot would the metal barrels be ? What is the actual temperature
of the air coming out of the heat vents in your house - it feels
like it is
not over 100 degrees.
Thanks in advance,
Alan L.
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| Message 9 |
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Subject: Aloha
From: "KevinLReed"
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 10:02:31 -1000
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Aloha,
Finally getting settled on the island of Kauai in Hawaii and just wanted =
to
say it's good to be back with the group. Will be starting the second =
greenhouse, the first bioponic, this coming week. We are using some risk =
assesment techniques to help insure profitability of each greenhouse =
including some " crop forwarding " to local markets letting them tell us =
what types of lettuce etc. they would like to buy on what schedule.
Iceburg lettuce sells by the pound here. It comes out to about $3.25 a =
head if you can keep the snails off of it ... we hope to bled some of =
the fish water that we will use to grow tomatoes and butter leaf into a =
straight soil planted greenhouse. Any thoughts on good inexpensive snail
deterrents would be welcome ... also any good recipes for escargot these =
things are 2 inches long !!!!
Kevin Reed
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Aloha,
Finally getting =
settled on the=20
island of Kauai in Hawaii and just wanted to
say it's good to be =
back with=20
the group. Will be starting the second greenhouse, the first bioponic, =
this=20
coming week. We are using some risk assesment techniques to help insure=20
profitability of each greenhouse including some " crop forwarding " to =
local=20
markets letting them tell us what types of lettuce etc. they would like =
to buy=20
on what schedule.
Iceburg lettuce =
sells by the=20
pound here. It comes out to about $3.25 a head if you can keep the =
snails off of=20
it ... we hope to bled some of the fish water that we will use to grow =
tomatoes=20
and butter leaf into a straight soil planted greenhouse. Any =
thoughts on=20
good inexpensive snail
deterrents would be =
welcome ...=20
also any good recipes for escargot these things are 2 inches long=20
!!!!
Kevin=20
Reed
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| Message 10 |
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Subject: Re: Aloha
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 15:58:57 -0500
Kevin,
Welcome back! Gardens Alive! Has a product called "Escar- Go!" You can
also try beer traps (Jar lids filled with beer) and I hear copper is
lethal to them too, so installing barriers around your beds should take
care of them unless they fly.
Now, how do I keep baby frogs from sleeping on the underside of my basil
leaves? It looks like an Ann Geddes photograph but probably wouldn't be
too good in the PR or Pesto departments...
Adriana
> a straight soil planted greenhouse. Any thoughts on good inexpensive
> snail
> deterrents would be welcome ... also any good recipes for escargot
> these things are 2 inches long !!!!
>
> Kevin Reed
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| Message 11 |
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Subject: remove
From: "Bart Payne, Jr."
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 21:41:20 -0700
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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please remove me from the list.
Thanks,
Bart Payne
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name="bartpaynejr.vcf"
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Content-Description: Card for Bart Payne, Jr.
Content-Disposition: attachment;
filename="bartpaynejr.vcf"
begin:vcard
n:Payne;Bart
tel;work:801.274.7407
x-mozilla-html:TRUE
url:http://www.wheybettermilk.com/
org:Whey Better Products
adr:;;5959 Oakhill Drive;Salt Lake City;UT;84121;USA
version:2.1
email;internet:bartpaynejr@wheybettermilk.com
title:Systems Admin
fn:Bart Payne, Jr.
end:vcard
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| Message 12 |
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Subject: Re: Aloha
From: "Sam Levy"
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 21:13:17 PST
kevin--
i've heard of people using black carp to keep snails down in earthen
ponds--don't know if this would work for you (or if they're exotic & require
special permitting in hawaii).
sam
>From: "KevinLReed"
>Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 10:02:31 -1000
>
Any thoughts on good inexpensive snail
>deterrents would be welcome ... also any good recipes for escargot these
>things are 2 inches long !!!!
>
>Kevin Reed
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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| Message 13 |
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Subject: Re: Fw: Greenwater Culture in Israel.
From: "Sam Levy"
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 21:39:04 PST
ted--
hope you get this before you're off list.
greenwater is typically done here in earthen ponds or in lined ponds using
water from earthen ponds.
what i will describe here is a system that's a little different but deals
with some of the issues you raise.
this strategy is practiced in plastic lined (or concrete) ponds and is
designed to maximize the utilization of nutrients.
the aerators (paddlewheel / fountain) are placed to maximize the continued
presence of particulate matter in the water column. the tilapia are fed a
commercial diet of 25 - 35% protein (depending upon availability) and 3 - 5%
lipid. water exchange is 5 - 15% daily (sometimes as low as 3%). the ponds
are typically flushed twice/day to eliminate settled solids. the fish are
stocked for growout at around 100 grams. planned maximum density for a pond
will be 16 - 20 kg/sq m. this strategy is practiced in ponds of 100 - 250
sq m (possibly up to 400 sq m). small juveniles will be reared to around 5
- 7 kg/m @ 5 grams. advanced juveniles to 10-15 kg/m.
the essential process is the the conversion of carbon and nitrogen into
bacterial protein (floc) which the fish ingest. again, this is a strategy
for maximizing feed utilization and may result in slower growth and lower
densities compared to other management systems.
it is also a system that requires careful monitoring for oxygen and
nitrogenous wastes--as you can well imagine. the water will often be a
lovely brown color.
tilapia do well and carp may be added to help keep the bottom stirred up--it
remains to be tested with other species.
looking forward to your return,
sam
>From: "TGTX"
>Subject: Fw: Greenwater Culture in Israel.
>
> > I would very much like to hear from any Israeli Tilapia farmers on the
> > fundamentals of greenwater Tilapia culture as it is practiced in Israel.
> >
> > 1) How protein content (%) in feed pellets may be lowered in greenwater
> > culture, and in what manner (in stages or degrees, or at all growth
>stages)
> > to take advantage of the algae & suspended bacteria food source and the
> > algae-heterotrophic bacteria function of assimilating nitrogenous waste
>into
> > their biomass.
> >
>
> > 4) I dimly recall some carbon isotope studies of greenwater Tilapia
>culture
> > conducted (I believe) in Israel, indicating that approximately half of
>the
> > assimilated carbon that went into the fish came from the artificial
>pellet,
> > whereas the other half orginated from photosynthate carbon and possibly
> > recycled ambient carbon sources from heterotrophic bacterial
>biomass...can
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Ted Ground
>
>
______________________________________________________
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| Message 14 |
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Subject: Re: using fish effluent
From: Vik Olliver
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 18:55:20 +1200
TGTX wrote:
> and water flow rate is optimized. Hmm...the pumice sounds good, but how are
> you draining and returning the water or, are you just drip irrigating onto
> the ground with no return flow?
Pummice is an excellent growing medium - especially for algae!
I'm an NFT fan myself.
Vik :v)
--
A member of The Olliver Family http://olliver.penguinpowered.com
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