Aquaponics Digest - Wed 12/22/99
Message 1: Good Heavens is this where we are going?
from Dave Miller
Message 2: RE: Speraneo system
from Rodger Duffett
Message 3: 32 ways to stop slugs, Aztec Red Spinach
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 4: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out?
from Dave Miller
Message 5: speraneo system
from Jacky Foo
Message 6: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out? Take 2
from Dave Miller
Message 7: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out? Take 2
from "Robert Claytor"
Message 8: calcium in biofilter
from "KevinLReed"
Message 9: Re: 32 ways to stop slugs, Aztec Red Spinach
from "KevinLReed"
Message 10: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out?
from "KevinLReed"
Message 11: System description
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 12: Re: aquaponics system of Paula and Tom Speraneo
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 13: Re: calcium in biofilter
from Vik Olliver
Message 14: Re: Speraneo system
from William Evans
Message 15: Re: Lemna -" Duckwwed" as protein suppliment
from "Mark Brotman"
Message 16: Re: Organics can't keep up?
from Carolyn Hoagland
Message 17: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Tue 12/21/99
from DAVEINBHAM
Message 18: Re: calcium in biofilter
from "KevinLReed"
Message 19: Natures Way Organic Farm
from "Dave Bok"
Message 20: Re: calcium in biofilter
from "Donald W. Trotter"
Message 21: Re: calcium in biofilter
from Joe_Myers@mail.mda.state.mo.us
Message 22: Re: OT. GMOs, prions, other festive cheer.
from "Barry Thomas"
Message 23: Re: Natures Way Organic Farm
from Shyloah
Message 24: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out? Take 2
from "F. Marc de Piolenc"
Message 25: Ins & Outs / Mushrooms as 'Beneficials'/Product
from Bill
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 1 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Good Heavens is this where we are going?
From: Dave Miller
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 01:17:02 -0500
By PHILIP BRASHER
WASHINGTON (December 20, 1999 5:42 p.m. EST
http://www.nandotimes.com) - Don't throw away the
lawnmower yet, but scientists have found out a
way to stunt the growth of grass and other plants
and keep them greener longer by tinkering with a
single gene. It could be a dream come true for
suburbanites weary of the weekly mowing ritual.
The gene regulates production of a steroid hormone
that causes plants to grow, much the same way
similar steroids work in animals. Scientists have now
succeeded in manipulating the gene to create dwarf
versions of standard plant species, according to
research published Tuesday in the journal
Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
A tobacco plant that would normally grow 6 feet tall
was engineered to mature at 12 inches by
scientists at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies
in San Diego. The same technique worked with the
Arabidopsis plant, a member of the mustard family
that, like tobacco, is frequently used in genetic
studies.
"It very much parallels the steroids in football
players. Plants buff up on it," Joanne Chory, the
Salk study's senior researcher, said of the newly
manipulated plant gene. "If you do something ... so
it isn't expressed, you get these little dwarfy guys."
The dwarf versions are identical to the standard
plants in every way but size, she said.
Plant breeders have long searched for ways to slow
the growth of grass to reduce maintenance on golf
courses, as well as lawns and parks. But
conventional breeding by cross-pollinating different
varieties is far more time consuming and less
exacting than engineering specific genes.
Golf courses are sprayed with chemicals to slow
grass growth, but they still must be mowed
frequently.
Tim Norris, the golf course superintendent at the
Army-Navy Country Club in Fairfax, Va., likes the
idea of slow-growing grass.
"We're mowing every other day to try to keep
conditions as good as we can," Norris said. "If we
could have something that would cut down on the
amount of mowing we do, it would be a great help.
We could use our labor somewhere else."
The plants the Salk Institute scientists used in their
study are more similar to trees, so there may be
difficulties in getting the technology to work with
grass, said Andy Hamblin, a turf geneticist at the
University of Illinois. But it's only a matter of time
before scientists develop grass that only needs to
be mowed once or twice a year, he said.
Conventional varieties of grass take an average of
13 years to develop, and the latest breeds have
reduced the number of mowings by only one or two
times a year, he said.
Gene-engineered grass also raises environmental
questions. Dwarf plants could cross-pollinate with
standard plants and stunt the growth of their
offspring, Hamblin said. The federal government
would have to approve any new varieties of grass
and could limit their use to avoid such problems.
Hamblin said the approval process for a biotech
grass could take several years.
As for its safety, the researchers said there should
be no danger to children or animals from eating the
grass, since it is essentially the same as
conventional grass.
Lawnmower manufacturers are not worried, at least
for the time being. Even with a government seal of
approval for biotech grass and its widespread
availability on the market, homeowners are unlikely
to go through the hassle of digging up their old turf
and planting an entirely new yard.
And many homeowners cut their grass regularly
because they like the way it looks, said Don St.
Dennis, a spokesman for The Toro Co., which makes
Toro and Lawn Boy mowers.
"It's not just the fact that it's long that makes it
look like it needs to be mowed, but it's because
individual blades of grass grow at different rates.
Part of the reason people mow it is so that it has
an even, uniform look to it," said St. Dennis.
The steroid that the Salk researchers manipulated
primarily regulates the growth of a plant's stems.
It's release is ordinarily triggered by changes in light
Chory said scientists expect eventually to be able
to pinpoint and alter other genes that that control
the growth of leaves and flowers, enabling them to
regulate the appearance of an entire plant.
--
Happy Solstice, Prosperous New Century!
_______________________________________
«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Recycler Dave
A remodeler, drummer, farmer, soapmaker
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 2 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: RE: Speraneo system
From: Rodger Duffett
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:23:26 +0200
Greetings from Cape Town, South Africa,
> The plants are good old water hyacinth.... the roots hang
> ...snip...
> grow and.. well, they are just amazing plants. I really want
In Southern Africa they do not occur naturally and have become a serious
pest where they have "escaped" into local waterways. The prolific growth
soon covers all available water surface reducing O2, light etc.
Just for interest...
Cheerio
Rodger Duffett
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 3 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: 32 ways to stop slugs, Aztec Red Spinach
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 03:36:42 -0500
> Do tell us about the 26 slug/snail alternatives (short of breading and
> frying).
I like the breading/frying idea. I've had snails in my basil lately and
I'll bet they would be mighty tasty if I could get them to grow to 1/2".
Here goes; "32 Success Secrets of Super Slug Slayers!" from the April
1991 issue of OG:
1. Cleanliness is better than slugliness! - remove plant and other
debris from the garden
2. Beat their path to the garden! avoid using boards as paths, the
slugs love to hide under them
3. Keep slug food at a distance! put garden trash/compost far from the
garden,a slug can travel 3 blocks in a day
4. Don't compound the problem in your compost! don't compost
slug-infested litter, they will spread from there, burn it or feed it to
animals instead
5. Design them out! Plant far from walls and fences, avoid rocks
boards and other hiding places
6. Till them a million times! slice 'em and dice 'em
7. Prune away their paths! prune bushes so they don't touch the ground
or brush against fences, this limits their paths
8. Elbow them out with elbow room! avoid crowding plants
9. Don't deck 'em! keep areas under decks weed free or dissolve the
critters by sprinkling rock salt under the deck
10. Forgo kinder, gentler mulches! leaves and straw encourages slugs to
hide, bark, cocoa hulls and rock are sharp and uninviting
11. Use the barrier method! a 2" wide barrier of wood ash (best
choice), saw dust or crushed egg shellsand/ot table salt will melt them
12. Pick 'em! hand picking for 5-10 minutes daily for 2 weeks will
reduce the breeding stock
13. Pitch 'em! throw them in the middle of the road (only in OG:>))
14. Take 'em for a ride! feed to pigs, put in soapy water or take to a
remote location
15. Fork 'em! if you can't pick them up, use a fork (nice, yuck)
16. Can 'em! use empty cans and jars sunk into the ground as traps
17. Bait 'em! fill traps with salty or soapy water and sprinkle bait
around them. Lettuce, cabbage, fermenting bread dough are fatal
attractions. Slug dough: 1 T molasses, 3 T cornmeal, 1/2 cup H2O, 1/2
T yeast. Keep leftovers in fridge.
18. Suds 'em! It's not the alcohol in beer that attracts them, it's
the yeast. Colorado State did a taste test and the winner was
non-alcoholic Kingsbury Malt Beverage. Among regular brews Michelob and
Bud scored highest, PBR was the least favorite.
19. But keep a head on it! cover the traps to keep rainwater from
diluting the bait.
20. And buy by the case! beer will only attract slugs for 48 hours,
then you need fresh brew.
21. Make 'em a drink! make your own liquid bait: 1 cup water 1
teasppoon sugar 1/4 teaspoon yeast
22. Hang their little heads on pikes! (OK maybe toothpicks) make a
barrier with the carcasses which will repulse newcomers
23. Appease 'em! plant a "sacrifice roow" , afree salad bar to allow
peaceful coexistence
24. Repel 'em! geranium leaves and horseradish roots are most
repulsive so consider planting a border with these
25. Use the bones of long-dead dinosaurs to make them extinct!
diatomaceous earth's sharp edges will puncture and dehydrate them
26. Lime 'em! a 2-4" barrier will dissolve them on contact, reapply
after rain
27. Trap 'em! commercial traps such as Slug Saloon, Snailer and Garden
Sentry
28. Get 'em with a copper top! copper stripping sold as "Snail Barr
Number 1" by Custom Copper of Venture California will make slugs sizzle
and foam when they touch it
29. Draw a line in the salt! a salt-embedded plastic stip called Slug
Defence from Down to Earth Organics in Eugene (Or?)
30. Make 'em do a Tippi Hedren impression! scatter birdseed in the
garden to invite birds to dinner
31. Turn 'em into eggs and fertilizer! ducks love snails, slugs and
other garden insects
32. Plan a two-pronged duck attack! let ducks roam free in the winter
to eradicate most of the problem; in the growing season fence them out
of lettuce and seedling beds.
Phew! Sources for some of the commercial products mentioned:
Gardener's Supply, Mellingers, The Natural Gardening Company and
Peaceful Valley Farm Supply.
> As to yard sales, you will never have a basement sale nor a tag sale.
What's a basement?
> The Aztec Red Spinach sounds interesting. Assuming that you find it, is
> this for your salad mix? Perhaps this is now an heirloom crop.
I've been told that you can get Aztec Red Spinach from Redwood
City Seed Company, PO Box 361, Redwood city, CA, 94064, 650-325-7333,
website www.ecoseeds.com I haven't contacted them yet. Let me know if
you try it.
May you all have a happy slug-free holiday,
Adriana
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 4 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out?
From: Dave Miller
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 01:58:44 -0500
Jim Sealy Jr wrote:
> even though I do support (and grow) controlled GE crops. GE/high tech
> crops are not going to just go away. There are too many potential
> benefits.
Jim, could you share with us the mentioned benefits so that we are all
less scared? I still envision a pig organ being put into a human or a
fish gene put into a plant without our knowledge. And cows are now
receiving human genes to make them more like us.
Maybe you could fairly and safely bring us into the year 2000?
Recycler Dave
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 5 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: speraneo system
From: Jacky Foo
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:17:27 +0100
To Raul Vergueiro Martins
Raul Vergueiro Martins
>Have you considered the high potential of anaerobic bio-digestors?
>You can get methane, and this means heat.
>Besides this, you have a high grade nutrient solution, and a nutrient slurry to
>use in soils.
I responded
>this could be an option for an aquaponics greenhouse system. An example of
>such a system is at Stensund (Sweden) where an anaerobic filter is used.
RalphMcl wrote:
>Would only like to say, why continue to look a gift horse in the mouth? The
>system has been proven to work and why not accept it at face value and grow
>instead of picking everything apart.
I dont understand what you meant by "to look a gift horse in the mouth"
when you wrote:
>The system has been proven to work.....
do you mean an aquaponics greenhouse system with bio-digestors and the use of methane for
heating ?
I woudl appreciate more information on this.
regards
jacky
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 6 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out? Take 2
From: Dave Miller
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 02:35:38 -0500
Jim Sealy Jr wrote:
>
> Either way we're planting soybeans and corn come spring
> because people have to eat and it's simply not possible to fill the
> volume needed with pure organic. We'd have to plow under the world.
> Which prairies, and forests do you want cleared and planted if we give
> up chemicals and GE?
>
Jim, I might be way off base here but last I checked, provisions to feed
the world are not the problem, food distribution and politics are. We
have the land space to feed the world only most of it goes toward
feeding cattle, a serious mismanagement of said land use. Without the
cattle (used for meat and milk) we could use the grains to feed billions
and ALL without a genetic engineering need.
As yet, I await a rational arguement that defines the reasons for
harvesting grains and taxing our water supply (not to mention excess
methane and runoff from animal waste) all for the purpose of feeding
animals for slaughter.
Fish farming in the aquaponic sense seems a much saner route. Anything
that is a fairly closed loop works for me.
While I choose to generally avoid animal products/derivitives I do
understand that the world needs to eat AND that not all folks feel as I
do.
When you ask me to believe that we must "plow under the world" I sense
that we either have a population explosion in which case I state that we
must be prepared to die like all other species on the planet, or modify
our reproduction mechanisms or at least temper our diet.
I find the latter the easiest though birth control is also possible
short of pissing off some religious beliefs.
I respect and expect the opinions of those who can convince me
otherwise.
Recycler Dave
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 7 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out? Take 2
From: "Robert Claytor"
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 03:55:00 PST
Lots of folks have some very good points here, and I find an irresistable
urge to toss in a few of facts/opinions (not sure of the difference):
Cows don't just grow on grain. They live on grass around my house, and
their famous seven (?) stomachs harbor incredible sets of bacteria that can
turn cellulose into energy. We, of course, cannot digest grass. We can
digest the flesh of animals that grow with the aid of those bacteria. I
call the cattle growers around me "grass farmers".
Two of my four children are vegetarians, and I totally support them in that
effort. But I point out to them that cattle grow on land that is not tilled,
tractored or sprayed with poison (usually). I know it just ain't that
simple, since a lot of pasture around my house is fertilized with litter
from chicken houses ( in other words, recycled grains).
But I don't think growing cattle on pasture is a waste of good farmland. If
you turn the ground, you MUST plant something else immediately. If you are
trying to grow something to make a living, you will get weeds (there are
lots here in GA, such as coffeweed, which is really indigo, which was tried
as a substitute for old king cotton). You gotta kill those weeds or they
will take away any profit. In the larger scale, most farmers THINK they
must use herbicides. Monoculture will bring pests (the dreaded boll
weevil?) so these same farmers believe they must use pesticides.
I believe the main problem is the fact that in GA the topsoil is long gone,
due to poor farming practices during the cotton era. Ever try to grow
something in plain Georgia red clay? The only thing found so far is pine
trees, which I call a 20-year stalk of corn. Until we work hard to replace
topsoil, organic FARMING is almost impossible.
enough already
bc
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 8 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: calcium in biofilter
From: "KevinLReed"
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 02:52:36 -1000
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF4C27.9A6662E0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Aloha,
I am trying to increase the " footprint" of the effective growth area of =
our bioponics by overproducing nutrients and letting much of the =
effluent run out of the grow house into the open fields while keeping =
nitrite/nitrate, pH levels etc. good for the fish and plants in the =
grow house. Our lab tests show that the soil is about 5.5pH and the =
calcium levels are in parts per/ million when the calcium levels should =
be an order of magnitude higher at least.
Can I use washed, crushed coral or something else that will leech =
calcium from the biofilter into the open fields? Some form of calcium =
carbonate? Any suggestions?
I hope you in the snow have not frozen yet ... come for a visit and thaw =
out! SMILE
Kevin
Anahola, Kauai
------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF4C27.9A6662E0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Aloha,
I am trying to increase the " footprint" =
of the=20
effective growth area of our bioponics by overproducing nutrients and =
letting=20
much of the effluent run out of the grow house into the open fields =
while=20
keeping nitrite/nitrate, pH levels etc. good for the fish and =
plants in=20
the grow house. Our lab tests show that the soil is about 5.5pH and the =
calcium=20
levels are in parts per/ million when the calcium levels should be an =
order of=20
magnitude higher at least.
Can I use washed, crushed coral or something =
else that=20
will leech calcium from the biofilter into the open fields? Some form of =
calcium=20
carbonate? Any suggestions?
I hope you in the snow have not frozen yet =
... come for=20
a visit and thaw out! SMILE
Kevin
Anahola, Kauai
------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF4C27.9A6662E0--
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 9 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: 32 ways to stop slugs, Aztec Red Spinach
From: "KevinLReed"
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 03:02:27 -1000
Adriana,
That was the best list of ways to do in slugs and snails I have ever seen! I
especially liked hanging their head on pikes! ( or toothpicks) I think I
will hire myself out as a snail and slug hit man. lol
Happy Holidays,
Aloha Nui Loa,
Kevin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 1999 10:36 PM
Subject: 32 ways to stop slugs, Aztec Red Spinach
> I've been told that you can get Aztec Red Spinach from Redwood
> City Seed Company, PO Box 361, Redwood city, CA, 94064, 650-325-7333,
> website www.ecoseeds.com I haven't contacted them yet. Let me know if
> you try it.
>
>
> May you all have a happy slug-free holiday,
>
> Adriana
>
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 10 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out?
From: "KevinLReed"
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 03:20:54 -1000
Hi Again,
On Kauai I am working on hardwood trees that have BT genetically inserted to
protect them from boring bug the first five years of the tree's life. The
trees I want to grow change from leaves to store chlorophyll which are
susceptible to borers to modified petals that are not within a few years of
growth ( the trees are related to acacia) I would also personally rather eat
BT transformed vegi's than ones sprayed with BT or any other pesticide.
Too much goes into aerosol and of off the fields.
200,005 tons of pesticide in California commercial farming last year with
80% to 90% of the pesticide migrating off of the fields and God knows how
much by home users. Can you say emphysema and asthma in local school
children?
Maybe birth control, permaculture, organic in some form will work but not
yet in a commercial form.
Actually, I am studying ways to GE myself by adding telomere extensions to
my cellular and mitochondrial DNA. Personally I think living about 2 or 3
hundred years looking and feeling 35 years old would be fun.
Happy Holidays,
Kevin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Miller"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 1999 8:58 PM
Subject: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out?
> Jim Sealy Jr wrote:
>
> > even though I do support (and grow) controlled GE crops. GE/high tech
> > crops are not going to just go away. There are too many potential
> > benefits.
>
> Jim, could you share with us the mentioned benefits so that we are all
> less scared? I still envision a pig organ being put into a human or a
> fish gene put into a plant without our knowledge. And cows are now
> receiving human genes to make them more like us.
>
>
> Maybe you could fairly and safely bring us into the year 2000?
>
> Recycler Dave
>
>
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 11 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: System description
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 07:47:53 -0600
At 07:28 AM 12/17/1999 EST, Lee wrote:
>
>Paula and Tom Speraneo have developed an aquaponics system which, I believe,
>A does not filter the water before running it through the beds
>B gravel grow beds are the filtration
>C bacteria maintained in the grow beds for nutrient conversion
>D functions with an aerator but much of the O2 is supplied by a shower
>effect when the water is pumped back into the fish tank
>
>I am thinking that this system has less equipment involved than some and more
>nutrient cycling. Since the Spenaneo's are hosts of this message board @
>townsqr, I know I will find out if this is the right information on their
>system.
It is, Lee, the right information in general. However, we do not have a
separate aerator in our system. There is an oxygen increase as the water
moves through the gravel, and again when the water is pumped back into the
fish tank.
Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 12 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: aquaponics system of Paula and Tom Speraneo
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 08:04:06 -0600
At 09:31 AM 12/18/1999 +0100, Jackie Foo wrote:
>I am particularly interested in the system too and wonder if any
>quantatitive analysis of the material and nutrient flows has been done for
>this system; i.e. what and how much inputs is made into the fish tank
>(feed, water) and its output (water quality and fish) as well as the
>nutrient flow for the beds.
We have done analysis of the above over the years, although the data varies
from one season to the next; and because it is an integrated system, the
overall production analysis must take into account the volume from the grow
beds as well.
Is there some specific area you wanted to identify?
>Is the bed a gravel bed that serves as a mic
>robial filter or does it have plants on it too?
We've found the plant production side of aquaponics to bring the best profit
from the system, in addition to providing the necessary filtration for the fish.
Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 13 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: calcium in biofilter
From: Vik Olliver
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 03:38:15 +1200
> KevinLReed wrote:
> Can I use washed, crushed coral or something else that will leech
> calcium from the biofilter into the open fields? Some form of calcium
> carbonate? Any suggestions?
Good, old-fashioned lime?
Vik :v)
--
A member of The Olliver Family http://olliver.penguinpowered.com
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 14 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Speraneo system
From: William Evans
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 06:52:43 -0800
I would wager that less pollutants/organic compounds / farm runoff
makes it out to sea because of it.Its a great absorber.
bill evans
>
> pest where they have "escaped" into local waterways. The prolific growth
> soon covers all available water surface reducing O2, light etc.
>
> Just for interest...
>
> Cheerio
> Rodger Duffett
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 15 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Lemna -" Duckwwed" as protein suppliment
From: "Mark Brotman"
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 11:07:46 -0500
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------3E8DC88FA95525947EA05CD1
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Kevin,
Duckweed is an excellent choice. You may also wish to take a look at R.
LeRoy Creswell's "Aquaculture Desk Reference" for the nutrient contents
of many other plants that could complement the duck weed. Chapman and
Hall publishers, 1993. It's an outstanding reference on many othe
topics as well.
Aloha fo'i ma a hiu hou,
Mark
KevinLReed wrote:
> Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain)
> Encoding: quoted-printable
--
Mark J. Brotman
Aquaculturist
CropKing
5050 Greenwich Rd.
Seville, OH 44273
Tel: 330/769-2002, Fax: 330/769-2616
Email: mbrotman@cropking.com
On the web at http://www.cropking.com
--------------3E8DC88FA95525947EA05CD1
Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: Card for Mark Brotman
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf"
begin: vcard
fn: Mark Brotman
n: Brotman;Mark
org:  CropKing.com
adr: CropKing.com;;5050 Greenwich Rd.;Seville;OH;44273;USA
email;internet: mbrotman@cropking.com
title: Aquaculturist
tel;work: 330-769-2002, ext. 113
tel;fax: 330-769-2616
x-mozilla-cpt: ;0
x-mozilla-html: FALSE
version: 2.1
end: vcard
--------------3E8DC88FA95525947EA05CD1--
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 16 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Organics can't keep up?
From: Carolyn Hoagland
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:41:25 -0500
Jim Sealy Jr wrote: The choice we have is
> either grow genetically engineered pesticide free crops, or pour on the
> chemicals. Either way we're planting soybeans and corn come spring
> because people have to eat and it's simply not possible to fill the
> volume needed with pure organic. We'd have to plow under the world.
> Which prairies, and forests do you want cleared and planted if we give
> up chemicals
If it is necessary to "plow under the world" or pour on the chemicals, then we have
truly reached an impasse. Daniel Quinn makes a bold statement in his video tape on
population (and in his other books)
http://www.newtribalventures.com/market/category.cfm?Category=12
summary:
In order to halt population growth, we must stabilize and gradually reduce the amount
of food produced. Converting the biomass of the planet into human beings is a "no
win" game.
If Jim's statement (above) is true, then we have already greatly exceeded carrying
capacity.
Carolyn Hoagland
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 17 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Tue 12/21/99
From: DAVEINBHAM
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 12:14:23 EST
In a message dated 12/22/1999 12:04:17 AM Central Standard Time,
aquaponics-digest-request@townsqr.com writes:
<< ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 6 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out?
From: Jim Sealy Jr
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 10:09:44 -0600
<< it's simply not possible to fill the
volume needed with pure organic. We'd have to plow under the world.
Which prairies, and forests do you want cleared and planted if we give
up chemicals and GE?
Jim>>
******************************************************************************
********
Jim,
I have real difficulty with that statement.
When you read the literature from any group--- hydroponic-- organic--
--- genetic modified---or conventional chemical proponents, they all claim
their " system" is superior to everything else. My observation is that all
systems ,when done well, produce about the same amount of food per unit of
surface area.
The problems come with the economics and politics of any particular "system"
of agriculture. Conventional agriculture deplets and sterilizes the soil but
as long as enough chemicals are used will continue to produce well. Organic
farmers don't buy much from the chemical companies and labor input is higher.
Hydroponics works well only with high profit crops and requires chemicals and
lots of equipment. GM crops do not produce more food per unit area but MAY be
somewhat more cost effective due to less labor.
The first problem with GM crops is that no long term safety studies have
been done on that "system" of agriculture. Roundup has been around a long
time but residues in food were limited to less than 6ppm. To accomodate the
Montsano Roundup Ready crops these limits were raised to 200 ppm without any
safety study I can find.
If you are aware of such a study published in a juried ,reputable journal,
please let me and the rest of the list know. The second problem with GM crops
is with the incorporation of BT insecticide directly into the plant. Bug eats
plant, bug dies. Now, what happens when you eat the plant for the next 20
years ? Found a long term study on that one, Jim ? What happens with the
exposure to both more Roundup and BT ?
Bottom line is WE are the lab rats in this long term study, Jim, and I, for
one, don't like it one damn bit. At least the US Department of Agriculture
could have required labeling so that those of us who don't want to eat the
stuff could avoid it. But, "No, that is not feasabile to label it and it is
safe" says Dan Glickman. Well, at least Western Europe, Canada, Australia,
New Zeland, and at long last, Japan are now saying they won't eat it either.
Now the grain elevators are telling farmers they are responding to market
forces and requiring farmers to do what USDA should have done all along,
namely segrate the GM stuff.
If Monsanto has financial problems as a result of trying to make people do
what they don't want to do then perhaps other agribusinesses will take note
and stop this stuff.
I cannot say if GM foods are safe or not, but I can say I do not want to eat
them. Organic produced foods are safe and I do not mind paying more for them
Regards,
Dave
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 18 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: calcium in biofilter
From: "KevinLReed"
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:38:52 -1000
I don't think lime will work as a biofilter on the edd and flow bed..If I
use lime I have to buy two things lime and something for biofilter. Lime is
always the first option to sweeten a field and fast but why would I use it
in the bioponic system?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vik Olliver"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 5:38 AM
Subject: Re: calcium in biofilter
> > KevinLReed wrote:
> > Can I use washed, crushed coral or something else that will leech
> > calcium from the biofilter into the open fields? Some form of calcium
> > carbonate? Any suggestions?
>
> Good, old-fashioned lime?
>
> Vik :v)
> --
> A member of The Olliver Family http://olliver.penguinpowered.com
>
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 19 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Natures Way Organic Farm
From: "Dave Bok"
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:48:16 -0500
Merry Christmas To All
I have been watching this group for a few months and have learned many
things,but now I must ask this.
How many of you actually farm organically?
I'm small compared to some,(150 ac) but I am certified by OCIA,and when God
and the weather is with us we do 30 to 40 bu./ac.
County avg.is 35.we have also raised 120 bu corn,but the best part is the
cows health has gotten better so much better that we spend $3000
per year less on vet bills,now if we can do that with 30 cows what could we
do to help the human race????????
The cows eat less because whats in the feed now has all the vitimans and
minerals that they need and can USE.
This subject will take some time to explain and I hope to post some better
explaintions soon, till then belive it chemicals are doing untold
amounts of damage to us.
Dave Bok
Northwest Ohio,USA
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 20 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: calcium in biofilter
From: "Donald W. Trotter"
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 12:05:58 -0800
Kevin,
Crushed coral is often used in biofilters for maintaining hard water
systems in the aquarium industry. There is a very good material that I use
made from crushed fossil kelp which is 40%+ elemental calcium. It is called
Kelzyme and runs about 150.00US per ton plus shipping. I get it from a guy
here in California but it is mined in Nevada. Very helpful in keeping
calcium hardness in line as well as providing a number trace minerals to
plants in micro quantity. It also has minute (250ppm) of iodine which I
have found to keep some pathogens at bay as well. Does not degrade nearly
as fast as limestone which I have found to be too harsh and rather
ephemeral in liquids. I use the Kelzyme in a pea gravel size and in one
small hatching system it is used for a bedding in my algal turf scrubbers.
If you are interested in this fossil kelp material contact Douglas Gore at
dcgore@earthlink.net
At 09:38 AM 12/22/1999 -1000, you wrote:
>I don't think lime will work as a biofilter on the edd and flow bed..If I
>use lime I have to buy two things lime and something for biofilter. Lime is
>always the first option to sweeten a field and fast but why would I use it
>in the bioponic system?
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Vik Olliver"
>To:
>Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 5:38 AM
>Subject: Re: calcium in biofilter
>
>
>> > KevinLReed wrote:
>> > Can I use washed, crushed coral or something else that will leech
>> > calcium from the biofilter into the open fields? Some form of calcium
>> > carbonate? Any suggestions?
>>
>> Good, old-fashioned lime?
>>
>> Vik :v)
>> --
>> A member of The Olliver Family http://olliver.penguinpowered.com
>>
>
>
>
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 21 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: calcium in biofilter
From: Joe_Myers@mail.mda.state.mo.us
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:36:44 -0600
> > KevinLReed wrote:
I don't think lime will work as a biofilter on the edd and flow bed=2E=2E=
If I
use lime I have to buy two things lime and something for biofilter=2E L=
ime is
always the first option to sweeten a field and fast but why would I use=
it
in the bioponic system?
Small limestone gravel should work fine as a biofilter/ ebb and flow,
root-support media=2E Although it's heavy and does not have as high of=
a
surface area as other media, it's cheap=2E Regardless of which compone=
nt of
the calcium carbonate you are interested in increasing, hardness or
alkalinity, it will dissolve slightly=2E
=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1=
!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1
Joseph J=2E Myers
Aquaculture Specialist
Missouri Department of Agriculture
1616 Missouri Blvd
PO Box 630
Jefferson City MO 65102-0630 USA
Joe_Myers@mail=2Emda=2Estate=2Emo=2Eus
(573) 526-6666
1-800-419-9139 AQUA TOLL-FREE
(573) 751-2868 FAX
=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1=
!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1=
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 22 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: OT. GMOs, prions, other festive cheer.
From: "Barry Thomas"
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 21:57:37 -0000
Hi all,
Can't resist throwing in a few thoughts about recent discussions.
I personally am in favour of GM in principle but agree with fears
expressed about past and current practise.
Making plants resistant to pesticides certainly seems to me to be
heading in the wrong direction. Mightn't be so bad if you modified
everything else to be resistant to the increased levels of toxins that
would be deployed as well.
Is "feeding the hungry" a good argument for GM? I think not - in the
short term at least. I believe the main problems to be faced have
already been stated: politics and transportation. The transport side
might be sorted by producing more where it is going to be consumed -
technically not too difficult and could bring many other benefits also.
The politics...hmm...
On the other hand:
One of the more obvious potential benefits of GM is to modify plants to
produce particular substances or materials (medicines, fuels, fibres
etc). Plants are incredibly good at using energy to construct large,
complex molecules from simpler elements. Not only can they produce the
stuff, they can move it around to well defined storage points - useful
for actually retrieving the desired product and/or when the product may
be harmful to the plant as a whole. Maybe a plant could produce a
compound and and store it in modified "seeds" - just the (altered) seed
case containing what you want instead of a seed? Whatever, the
possibilities for good seem immense.
Altering plants and simple animals (bacteria, protozoa etc) also offers
potential for improved bioremediation of wastes.
Bearing in mind (if it hasn't turned to cheese yet) the recent
anouncements about BSE (definate link with CJD and that: Good news -
only a portion of the (UK) population seem suceptible, apparently due to
genetic differences. Bad news - that portion is estimated to be around
40%) and the rather casual way in which infected cattle were disposed of
then, say, some soil-dwelling bacterium which could ingest and somehow
destroy prions could well become desirable in the near future.
To throw the huge potential gains offered by GM away simply because a
few biotech companies abused the technology at the start seems a little
hasty. At least as hasty and potentially damaging as allowing the
research to continue to be driven in the direction of financial profit
alone.
Anyway, hope things improve for everyone - whatever the date.
Barry
barrythomas@btinternet.com
PS Someone mentioned half-lives. If something has a half-life of 8
years, this does _not_ mean it will all be gone in 16. A half-life means
that whatever quantity of material you have will be halved over that
interval. Over the next interval, half of what remains will decay and
the next interval it will halve again etc. So, if the half-life of the
material is 8 years then after 16 years around 25% will still remain, 24
years = 12.5%, 32 years = 6.25% etc. It is a curve, not a straight line.
Not being pedantic - just thought it worth pointing out that we can
expect to enjoy the company of these materials far longer than the
slightly deceptive 'half-life' title may imply.
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 23 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Natures Way Organic Farm
From: Shyloah
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 19:41:45 EST
I don't farm - have been educating in farming so that I may be able to do an
ag related carreer - I do consume food
I am thinking that this chem revolution was never necessary for farms - and
has made farming dependent on inputs that were never necessary until they
killed the soil's micro-organisms
Thankyou for being a food producer who takes care of the soil
I believe that the farmers who last will be the ones who's lives (money) are
not controlled by the chem co's
Lee
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 24 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out? Take 2
From: "F. Marc de Piolenc"
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 12:01:07 +0800
Dave Miller wrote:
> As yet, I await a rational arguement that defines the reasons for
> harvesting grains and taxing our water supply (not to mention excess
> methane and runoff from animal waste) all for the purpose of feeding
> animals for slaughter.
The reason is simple enough - people choose to eat meat and are willing
to pay enough for it to make the land use profitable. Quite aside from
denying people free choice of food, forcing the use of pasture for
growing crops other than grass is likely to yield poor results - arable
land and pastureland are not always interchangable.
Marc de Piolenc
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 25 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Ins & Outs / Mushrooms as 'Beneficials'/Product
From: Bill
Date: 22 Dec 99 20:59:28 PST
<< OOWON@netscape.net >>
>I could probably figure out excell (or my children can) but I
don't know what figures to plug in or how to measure the nutrient
contents to obtain these figures. This is probably ordinary info
to you. Appreciate any info you post. Thanks
Lee
**You should get a book on basics/intermeadiate parameters
to give you an idea. A system book would do it. I.e. People
require about 1.7-8 lbs. of oxygen in a standard municipal
wasteewater plant per person per day, to treat their input.
Sampls are taken and very carefully measured to gain a
representative of the whole system. All inputs/outputs.
I generalize here.
Pros already know, and can skip a few steps to gain a feel
for the whole, much faster. They get to know their own system.
Equipment is both basic and advanced, i.e. Both general weight
scales, and those which weigh a few hundred grams to an
accuracy of at least 1 and preferably a thousanth of that.
Depending on your need for efficiency.
Is your purpose to grow? Or optimize against a control group?
Compare two different fish? I suggest we palaver via direct
email a bit ans well as here. I know methods and calcs for
this from the experience in wastewater engineering and would
transfer that to fish.
Look at the example below.
********
>It is a mystery to me what they are eating, but I have not
been feeding them. Slowly, I will add more.
Best Fishes, Tom O
>They hide under the roll of hay. Any ideas?
...in your view, it's just not feasable to go organic, balance
> the soil , and restore fertility, and meet demand?
*That leaves the chemical fertilizer and poison folks
without a product base. To some, a new approach, being
non-standard, is termed non-commercial.
Re: amazing water hyacinth and forests and above.
Re-awakened upon being reminded of compost piles being filled
with molds (altho' I felt we were discussing more a sewage
sludge with more bacterial decomposition-"methane formers,"
at the time)and following it to study mycology (to the point
of inheriting managment of a List) I discover they are also
good at certain toxin and soil remediation, and water
polution removal.
Also that 10% of soil may be mycelium (their 'roots') around
trees in some forests, and are being found to be a cause
in deforestation. They are apparently very beneficial to
plant as decomposer/nutrient releasers.
Cleaning tank flow, MAY be a hydroponic addition to aquaponics.
They seem to have some appropriate attributes.
Happppppppiest Holidays to you ALL!!!
May the King of Fisherman Genrously Bless You As He Sees Fit!
I will try to put in a good word,
as I have enjoyed and benefitted from your company.
Bill
|
