Aquaponics Digest - Sun 02/11/01
Message 1: OT Solar Heater
from "Nick"
Message 2: Re: Simplest description of a small anaerobic digester
from "Adriana Gutierrez"
Message 3: Re: worms as feed and solids removal
from "Adriana Gutierrez"
Message 4: Re: V*rus possibility?
from "Barry Thomas"
Message 5: Re: Simplest description of a small anaerobic digester
from CAVM@aol.com
Message 6: Re: worms as feed and solids removal
from CAVM@aol.com
Message 7: Re: Simplest description of a small anaerobic digester
from "Bennett"
Message 8: Re: Simplest description of a small anaerobic digester
from CAVM@aol.com
Message 9: Re: Simplest description of a small anaerobic digester
from fishmanbruce@webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber)
Message 10: Re: Simplest description of a small anaerobic digester
from "Adriana Gutierrez"
Message 11: Re: So you think you're tougher than a little old bug, eh?
from "TGTX"
Message 12: Re: Simplest description of a small anaerobic digester
from "TGTX"
Message 13: Re: Simplest description of a small anaerobic digester
from "TGTX"
Message 14: Re: worms as feed and solids removal
from Gordon Watkins
Message 15: Re: worms as feed and solids removal
from "Paul F. Beglane"
Message 16: Re: Simplest description of a small anaerobic digester
from "TGTX"
Message 17: Re: Simplest description of a small anaerobic digester
from "James Rakocy"
Message 18: Re: worms as feed and solids removal
from Purnima Farms
Message 19: Re: worms as feed and solids removal
from Purnima Farms
Message 20: Re: Simplest description of a small anaerobic digester
from "TGTX"
Message 21: Re: worms as feed and solids removal
from "TGTX"
Message 22: Re: Simplest description of a small anaerobic digester
from "David E. McCall"
Message 23: Re: Simplest description of a small anaerobic digester
from "James Rakocy"
Message 24: Re: Simplest description of a small anaerobic digester
from "Bennett"
Message 25: Re: Simplest description of a small anaerobic digester
from fishmanbruce@webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber)
Message 26: Re: Simplest description of a small anaerobic digester
from Raul Vergueiro Martins
Message 27: Re: Simplest description of a small anaerobic digester
from "TGTX"
Message 28: bio-diesel
from "timjohanns"
Message 29: red claw-late
from "timjohanns"
Message 30: Re: Water Question
from "STEVE SPRING"
Message 31: Re: worms as feed and solids removal
from "STEVE SPRING"
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| Message 1
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Subject: OT Solar Heater
From: "Nick"
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 22:19:24 -0800
Bill Kreamer of Sol-Air Company, Belfast, Maine, put a great post on the
newsgroups concerning the construction of a solar air heater. I have no
business connection with Sol-Air, but Bill was responsive to my questions
and followed through with a pdf format construction illustration and a pdf
format information booklet.
His company does sell a commercial version of the homebuilt unit, with added
features. The illustration, text, and booklet (booklet describes the
commercial version) provide thorough information on this heater. It has to
be one of the best designs that I have seen, comparatively inexpensive to
build, and buildable without any major power or exotic tools. (my kind of
project!) It is not a concentrator style collector.
Hopefully I will be building my first one this week.
If you wish to contact Bill yourself, his email address is:
kreamer@mint.net
I did put a copy of the newsgroup text (which includes some down to earth
and inexpensive conservation methods), construction illustration, and
booklet on my isp's server if you want to just view/print the info. The
illustration and booklet do require you to have Adobe Acrobat Reader.
The text file is 30 kb in size, the illustration about 80 kb and booklet is
about 250 kb in size.
Link text is case sensitive.
Text file is at:
www.hctc.com/~njones/solar/Sol-Air.txt
Illustration (1 page) is at:
www.hctc.com/~njones/solar/Homebuilt_Collector_Illustration.pdf (spaces
between words, not underscores)
Booklet (11 pages) is at:
www.hctc.com/~njones/solar/Information_Booklet.pdf (spaces between words,
not underscores)
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| Message 2
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Subject: Re: Simplest description of a small anaerobic digester
From: "Adriana Gutierrez"
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 01:35:18 -0600
I would think that the health risks of running manure directly into
the hydroponic system will make public health experts and
microbiologists shudder. Just because the Chinese have been doing it
for centuries doesn't mean it is the best thing to do. You can forget
any possibilities of getting product liability insurance. A good
HAACP (Hazard Analysis and Control Process) assessment would be full
of red flags.
> Look at the Texas Tech web page at the work of Dr. Nick Parker. He
is doing
> just what you suggest only he starts out with cattle manure, goes to
> hydroponics, duckweed, algae, aquaculture and then to an indoor
wetland all
> in his greenhouses. Except he does not use worms that I saw.
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| Message 3
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Subject: Re: worms as feed and solids removal
From: "Adriana Gutierrez"
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 01:42:52 -0600
Berry,
I believe the worms are worth more than the fish so it doesn't make
financial sense to use them as feed as you're actualy devaluing them.
Jim Sealy wasn't that you're recommendation a while back?
> vermicomposting system integrated with aquaponics. I'd like to feed
to
> the worms to the fish. Does anyone know about the nutrient content
of
> these critters? Also will this unneccessarily increase the solids
in the
> system?
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| Message 4
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Subject: Re: V*rus possibility?
From: "Barry Thomas"
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 09:46:39 -0000
Jim,
> I run a few websites and mail lists and what you just described is one
> of the signs of being infected by the hybris.b trojan.
> ...
You had me worried for a while there. Fortunately it seems that that's the
only symptom I had. As I said, the only time I got the messages was after
posting to this list. No list or person that I mail regularly has complained
of unexpected/unfriendly attachments (and at least some most certainly would
have done). I tried the search you suggested (plus some from the AV sites)
then finally installed some extra software (with latest patterns) in case my
existing stuff had been bypassed but no trace at all. If it ever was here it
tidied-up before it left. Either way, any virus sent to the list server in
the last week or so didn't come from this machine.
Thanks for the warning/advice though.
Barry
barrythomas@btinternet.com
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| Message 5
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Subject: Re: Simplest description of a small anaerobic digester
From: CAVM@aol.com
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 08:50:34 EST
I should apologize. I mislead you when I said that Dr. Parker is doing what
the writer had in mind except with cattle manure. I meant that he was doing
the anaerobic digestion with cattle manure and then to hydroponics. He does
not use fresh manure to hydroponics and I would not recommend that anybody
else do that either.
Neal Van Milligen
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In a message dated 2/11/2001 1:35:58 AM Central Standard Time,
gutierrez-lagatta@home.com writes:
<<
I would think that the health risks of running manure directly into
the hydroponic system will make public health experts and
microbiologists shudder. Just because the Chinese have been doing it
for centuries doesn't mean it is the best thing to do. You can forget
any possibilities of getting product liability insurance. A good
HAACP (Hazard Analysis and Control Process) assessment would be full
of red flags.
> Look at the Texas Tech web page at the work of Dr. Nick Parker. He
is doing
> just what you suggest only he starts out with cattle manure, goes to
> hydroponics, duckweed, algae, aquaculture and then to an indoor
wetland all
> in his greenhouses. Except he does not use worms that I saw.
>>
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| Message 6
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Subject: Re: worms as feed and solids removal
From: CAVM@aol.com
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 08:52:42 EST
Our research shows a wholesale value for the compost worms to depend on the
type of worm but to go from $5/lb USD to $15/lb USD live weight.
Neal Van Milligen
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In a message dated 2/11/2001 1:43:48 AM Central Standard Time,
gutierrez-lagatta@home.com writes:
<< Berry,
I believe the worms are worth more than the fish so it doesn't make
financial sense to use them as feed as you're actualy devaluing them. >>
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| Message 7
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Subject: Re: Simplest description of a small anaerobic digester
From: "Bennett"
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 08:59:52 -0500
> I would think that the health risks of running manure directly into
> the hydroponic system will make public health experts and
> microbiologists shudder.
Does the fermentation in anaerobic digestion kill enough pathogens
to use THAT effluent for the hydroponics system?
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| Message 8
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Subject: Re: Simplest description of a small anaerobic digester
From: CAVM@aol.com
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 09:17:51 EST
It is my understanding that under the new USDA regulations the outflow from
an anaerobic digester using animal manure is now certifiable as an organic
fertilizer. It qualifies to be used in crops grown to be sold as Organic.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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In a message dated 2/11/2001 8:02:53 AM Central Standard Time,
bennett@frognet.net writes:
<<
Does the fermentation in anaerobic digestion kill enough pathogens
to use THAT effluent for the hydroponics system?
>>
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| Message 9
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Subject: Re: Simplest description of a small anaerobic digester
From: fishmanbruce@webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 08:35:14 -0600 (CST)
I disagree with you about the Chinese Aquaponic system being dangerous
and unfeasible .
You discount the fact that they have been Pioneering and perfecting all
of the integrated forms of Aquaculture on Earth not for centuries but
for THOUSANDS OF YEARS. (during which time I might add our European
ancestors were still eating one an other )
You imply that the minds and TIME PROVEN methods of Tens of
Millions of Chinese Aquculturists that live in a CLIMATE IDENTICAL TO
OURS are unfeasible for North American purposes
Do you forget that the cost of heating our water for Talapia and
other warm water species may soon cripple northern Aquculture systems
ability to compete
with the banana belt
In the biosphere 2 experiments they use the Chinese methods most of the
time they just polish them up abit
Bruce
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| Message 10
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Subject: Re: Simplest description of a small anaerobic digester
From: "Adriana Gutierrez"
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 09:25:46 -0600
I'm pretty sure that the product of a combined aerobic/anaerobic
digester does, I don't know about straight anaerobic. May Raul
Vergueiro Martins will jump in and clarify this for us.
Adriana
> Does the fermentation in anaerobic digestion kill enough pathogens
> to use THAT effluent for the hydroponics system?
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| Message 11
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Subject: Re: So you think you're tougher than a little old bug, eh?
From: "TGTX"
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 09:32:56 -0600
> > I love San Antonio!! What a beautiful place.
> > 3-corners: San Antonio, San
> > Marcos & Austin!! Just doesn't get any prettier than
> > that. Wildflowers,
> > bluebonnets, etc.
> >
> > SS
We should have a pretty good growth of bluebonnets this year around these
parts, I predict. Winter has been wet enough to make that happen, I hope.
When my little Laura was about 2 years old, she used to call them
"Boo-Bobbies".
"Look at all the Boo-Bobbies, Daddy".
Friends of my wife and I, Frank and Pam Arnosky, live in Blanco County west
of us, and they have a successful cut flower business. They, too have a
flock of children and they homeschool their kids, too. Anyway, so they grow
the "long stem" bluebonnet, which is a sub-species or genetic variation of
the bluebonnets that grow wild around here. This long stem bluebonnet is
beautiful, as you can imagine, and they work it into their bouquets that
they sell. The origin of this sub-species is somewhere out in West Texas,
maybe out in Big Bend, but I am not sure about that.
Anyway, Pam and Frank have a new book out that Johnny's Seeds sells in their
catalog.....It's call "We're gonna be Rich!!". A tongue in cheek title for
a book about the hard scrabble existence and VERY hard work that they went
through to get to where they are today. See them and their cute kids on the
cover at this URL:
http://www.johnnyseeds.com/cgi-local/Minishopsql4.cgi
Here's the summary of their book on Johnny's website:
"NEW! An indispensable reference for flower growers. We're Gonna Be Rich! is
a compilation of the Arnoskys' monthly "Growing for Market" flower columns
from 1995 through 1998. The Arnoskys grow an astonishing number of
varieties, and they are constantly tinkering with crop scheduling,
post-harvest treatments, labor management, and every other aspect of their
flower business. Full of trade secrets, variety and cultural information,
and their ability to see humor in their day-to-day experiences. Indexed by
topics. Softcover, 168 pp."
(These are indeed funny folks, and by the way, they are outstanding
two-steppers, and polka dancers....Sort of like Ginger Rogers and Fred
Astair meets Lonesome Dove.........We used to go " Daincin' " with them,
just to watch THEM dance the nuclear polka....at this old Tex-German dance
hall built at the end of the 1800s....out in the middle of a dang cow
pasture.....ah...those were the days....and all the fields were electric
blue with "Boo-Bobbies....Pam and Frank recently appeared in the Austin
American Statesman Newspaper....they were "Daincin" at the inaugural ball in
their typical energetic flair and pinache....)
Ted
(By the way, my son's team won 3rd place in the state homeschool basketball
tournament in San Antonio yesterday....by 4 points....I dont think I paced
that much since he was being born...)
Go Panthers! Now it's on to Nationals in Oklahoma!!! (For my oldest
daughter's team, not my son's team)
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| Message 12
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Subject: Re: Simplest description of a small anaerobic digester
From: "TGTX"
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 09:37:47 -0600
> It is my understanding that under the new USDA regulations the outflow
from
> an anaerobic digester using animal manure is now certifiable as an organic
> fertilizer. It qualifies to be used in crops grown to be sold as Organic.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
I believe I can confirm that. This is true to the best of my knowledge.
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| Message 13
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Subject: Re: Simplest description of a small anaerobic digester
From: "TGTX"
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 10:22:51 -0600
> HAACP (Hazard Analysis and Control Process) assessment would be full
> of red flags.
I was certified by the National Marine Fisheries Service HACCP training
group in Biloxi Mississpi in 1995, and I ran a food testing laboratory for
food processors and manufacturers, providing microbial testing services and
QC/HACCP assistance.
So I know a bit about HACCP (Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Point)
planning, perhaps enough to comment here.
I think that IF the anaerobic digestor process is kept constantly "under
control" (no inadvertent burps in the system...no "short circuits" or "short
cuts"), THEN, reasonable microbial hazards in hydroponic or aquaponic-like
systems using anaerobic digestor supernatant or liquid fractions could be
prevented and thereby controlled under an approved HACCP plan. Perhaps a UV
or Ozone step added prior to plant culture?
I agree that it would make one pause, think twice, monitor processes very
closely, and use reasonable preventative measures and precautions, but when
we stop to think about and compare the known pathogens in common soil, even
soils that receive absolutely no animal waste products or composts as soil
amendments, and in such soils, we have traditionally raised our crops in,
and subsequently wash or whatever, and deliver to the consumer, (a system
which, in my opinion needs it's own HACCP plan for prevention of hazards),
then I believe we can conclude that an anaerobic digestor liquid-based
hydroponic or aquaponic-like system could be successfully and safely
operated within reasonable risk management levels.
I also think it is likely that the anaerobic digestor liquid (supernatant)
that has been digested a sufficient amount of time (very important) would be
superior in terms of nutrients as well as microbial safety compared with
"compost tea", which could really run risks of not only pathogenic bacteria
(perhaps opportunistic pathogens), but paracites and all kinds of nasty
pathogens as well, which are not necessarily bacterial (fungal, amoebic,
trematodes, etc...) I just don't buy into the arguement that hot composts
kill EVERYTHING.....Having run a few big piles of hot compost through my
garden for many years, and trying earnestly to keep it well mixed and
cooking...you still see little clumps and pockets of non-decomposed manure,
occassionally.
Nevertheless, I suspect it would not be a zero risk situation with anaerobic
digestor liquid used in plant culture systems, as there is no such
situation....there is no such thing as zero risk. For example, depending on
digestor thermal optima....and Neal Van M. could address this much more
adroitly than I could.... it might be possible to pass "thermophilic
anaerobes", such as Clostridium thermosaccharolyticum (a spoilage bacterium)
, through the system if heat were the only deciding factor in their
control........BUT (and this is a BIG BUT) , just as heat is NOT the ONLY
pathogen or "undesirable microorganism" control factor involved in aerobic
composting (competitive exclusion by Pseudomonas sp. and others is a major
control factor), I suspect that heat or temperature optima is not the only
control factor involved with pathogen or "undesirable microbe" control in
anaerobic digestors....Perhaps Kevin Reed or other astute microbiologists
among us can clarify and instruct us much better than my feeble attempt
here....
Again, these are just my opinions, wild speculations.....
Fascinating topic, though...I will try to do more digging into it and learn
a bit more before I shoot my mouth off again....you know, Pedantically
Pontificate in Public as I tend to do sometimes........
Have a Great Weekend, Everybody!!
Ted
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| Message 14
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Subject: Re: worms as feed and solids removal
From: Gordon Watkins
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 11:06:46 -0600
Ben,
Below is some info on nutritional value of red wigglers (E. foetida).
While they are an excellent feed source, I agree with other responses you've
gotten that they are too valuable to use for that purpose. You'd be ahead
(economically at least) to sell the worms and purchase the feed. I did
inoculate my gravel beds with wigglers however, and they are now well
populated. I find that they help break down solids and algae mats, prevent
compaction by bringing castings to the surface, and I frequently notice babies
in my fish vats so I do get some incidental feed value. The one area where
they may be justifiable as fish feed is in conditioning breeding stock.
Gordon Watkins
Chemical composition of E.foetida meal
Wet Basis (%)
Protein (N x 6,25)
66,8 +-
3,2
Lipids (As EE)
8,8
+- 0,9
Humidity
7,3 +- 0,7
Ashes
8,4 +- 0,6
Crude fiber
1,3 +- 0,8
Carbohidrates
1,2
+- 0,2
Non proteic nitrogen
5,7
+- 0,4
Other constituents
0,5
+- 0,3
Aminoacidic content and composition of E.foetida meal
Aminoacid Gr. o aminoacid per 100 gr
of
protein
+ Lisyne 12,51
Histidine
2,51
Arginine
7,03
+ Tryptophane 0,29
Asparctic acid 11,01
+ Treonine
3,76
Serine
3,30
Glutamic acid
13,57
Proline
4,47
Glicine
5,22
Alanine
5,54
Cisteine
4,23
+
Valine
6,14
+ Metionine
1,53
+
Isoleucine
4,73
+
Leucine
7,39
Tirosine
3,23
+ Phenilalanine
3,54
(+) Human essential aacids
bberry wrote:
> ... Does anyone know about the nutrient content of
> these critters?
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| Message 15
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Subject: Re: worms as feed and solids removal
From: "Paul F. Beglane"
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 09:15:25 -0800 (PST)
Hi Ben,
We're doing that right now in Boston. I'm based
right on the edge of the 'hood, in a former abandoned
lot. Will be happy to share details off-group, and I'd
like to compare what plusses and pitfalls you guys are
hitting out there, too...
best,
Paul B.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
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| Message 16
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Subject: Re: Simplest description of a small anaerobic digester
From: "TGTX"
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 12:56:20 -0600
> Fascinating topic, though...I will try to do more digging into it and
learn
> a bit more before I shoot my mouth off again....
Well, I went and done some diggin'....and to my serendipitous joy found out
some stuff that goes back to my former hippie roots in aquaponics.....here's
the story.
Back in 1968 or so, I was a voracious reader of science, agriculture, and
anything about weird stuff, which of course worried my folks a great deal,
but I somehow got ahold of the Whole Earth Catalog....they didn't get it for
me, I can assure you.....Well, I felt at the time that it just changed my
life....(sounds kind of like John Lennon talkin about rock n roll) But it
changed my very young world view at the time.....
Thing is, Whole Earth Catalog was put out by the Portola Institute, so
anything that came along from those folks, I tended to latch onto....so,
later, around 1974, 75, around that time, I latched onto the "Energy
Primer"....that's where I caught the BUG for Aquaponics....although it was
not called that at the time, as I recall.....on page 136 of that book....
there is a sketch....a simple drawing...I still have this book to this
day...yellowed and tattered....well, on page 136 is a picture of a 100 ft x
30 ft "Aquasolarium" Solar-Wind Powered Aquatic food production unit, after
a design of D. Mendola, New Alchemy Institute West and S.A. Serfling, Solar
Aquafarms, Davis, California.....I can point to that book, that one page,
and perhaps the New Alchemists Journals coming out at the time, and say that
is where I really got caught up into "Aquaponics" or "Integrated
Agriculture". Another book that was influential, but that I never got ahold
of, was "Radical Agriculture".....influential in that I read the review of
it and saw some excerpts from it in the Whole Earth Catalog...I think it was
the first time I had every heard or read about the chicken tractor
concept....this was long before Salatin wrote about it....
O.K., so at that time, I got everything I could get a hold of on the doings
of the New Alchemists, which many of you know was headed up by John Todd,
who later developed the Living Machine systems or the "Solar Aquatic"
systems for wastewater treatment, etc, and some of you may know that Solar
Aquafarms later evolved into one of the largest Tilapia producers in the
U.S....I think they are owned by a big fruit company, like Chaquita or Dole
or something like that....seems like they do greenwater culture
systems.....Dr. Jim R. is that correct??
Well, this is starting to sound like Burke's rambling tales of historical
connections, or the script to "My Dinner with Andre" or something, but just
bear with me.....
So, anyway, in my effort to read up on compost teas and the like as promised
in my earlier post, I went back and read a neat little article in the
Organic Farming Research Foundation's Winter 2001 issue of their Information
Bulletin. "Apparatus Design and Experimental Protocol for Organic Compost
Teas....by Richard Merrill and John McKeon. Richard Merrill is the Program
Director, Dept. of Horticulture, at Cabrillo Community College, in Soquel,
California. (I subscribe to this bulletin which get via snail mail)
This article really addresses some of what we have been discussing, and at
the end it says that I could access it via their website at
http://www.ofrf.org. Well, I searched the world over and I thought I found
true love, but I didn't find anything on their website other than the fact
that they funded a project by Merrill for this (Project #97-40) for $4,860.
So, I tried to find out more about Merrill's work by looking at Cabrillo
Community Colleges' website at
http://www.cabrillo.cc.ca.us/~tsmalley/FacultyAuthors.html#L-M
So what did I find out.....but Merrill had put together all these books that
influenced my young, hippie, idealistic viewpoint and life 25 years
ago....this gave me one of those Shirely McClain moments that I am am known
to poke fun at from time to time.......Check out his list of
publications.......
Merrill, Richard. The Down and Dirty Grow It and Cook It Companion, by Joe
Ortiz, and Richard Merrill. Berkeley, CA: Ten Speed Press, 1999.
Merrill, Richard. Energy Primer: Solar, Water, Wind, and Biofuels, ed. by
Richard Merrill and Thomas Gage. Menlo Park, CA: Portola Institute, 1978.
(1st edition was 1974, I believe).
Merrill, Richard. The Gardener's Resource Guide for the Monterey Bay: Where
to Find All Your Gardening Needs. Soquel, CA: Two Bay Horticultural
Communications, 1995.
Merrill, Richard. Methane Digesters for Fuel Gas and Fertilizer. Santa
Barbara, CA: New Alchemy Institute, 1973.
Merrill, Richard. Radical Agriculture. New York: Harper & Row, 1976
O.K. so this is all freaking me out, man....sounding like William Shatner
here, but I guess you had to be there....Anyway, so keep tabs on the OFRF
website for this publication...apparently they have not posted on their
website yet...
Some highlights from his compost tea article include some interesting graphs
of heterotrophic aerobic and facultative anaerobic bacteria in compost tea
after 24 and 48 hours in Merrill's systems. Also shows fungal counts and
pseudomonad counts. And there is an extensive reference list at the end of
the article (53 citations).
Sounds like this guy could teach us a thing or two about bacteria
populations and types in aerobic compost teas vs. anaerobic digestor
liquids.
Cool stuff. Maybe I'll email him and pick his brains about his work.
If I find out any more, I'll send it along y'all's way
Have a great weekend.
Ted
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| Message 17
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Subject: Re: Simplest description of a small anaerobic digester
From: "James Rakocy"
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 16:28:38 -0400
Solar Aquafarms was developed by Steve Serfling, bought by Chiquita, then
sold to a group of Asians and is now out of business. This was the first
greenwater system in the U.S. The problem was that they had to leave all
their solids in the system by law, zero discharge. Each tank had 60-hp of
aeration to maintain adequate DO, very costly. To stay near carrying
capacity they had multiple size groups in each tank, which required frequent
seining to remove marketable-sized fish, very labor intensive. Runts
avoided capture and stayed in the system forever or until they finally grew
big enough to be captured, very wasteful. They eventually lost track of
their inventory, very confusing. R.I.P Jim R.
> O.K., so at that time, I got everything I could get a hold of on the
doings
> of the New Alchemists, which many of you know was headed up by John Todd,
> who later developed the Living Machine systems or the "Solar Aquatic"
> systems for wastewater treatment, etc, and some of you may know that
Solar
> Aquafarms later evolved into one of the largest Tilapia producers in the
> U.S....I think they are owned by a big fruit company, like Chaquita or
Dole
> or something like that....seems like they do greenwater culture
> systems.....Dr. Jim R. is that correct??
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| Message 18
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Subject: Re: worms as feed and solids removal
From: Purnima Farms
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 14:23:52 -0700
Here is a great site to see what you can do by growing and feeding
water weeds to fish.
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| Message 19
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Subject: Re: worms as feed and solids removal
From: Purnima Farms
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 14:27:51 -0700
>Here is a great site to see what you can do by growing and feeding
>water weeds to fish.
>http://www.idrc.ca/books/focus/776/yangguan.html
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| Message 20
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Subject: Re: Simplest description of a small anaerobic digester
From: "TGTX"
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 15:28:38 -0600
> big enough to be captured, very wasteful. They eventually lost track of
> their inventory, very confusing. R.I.P Jim R.
Well, that shows what I know about current events. R.I.P. indeed....I
thought that maybe they were still kickin' it.
But, Dr. Jim, back to Merrill's compost tea article...in the OFRF
bulletin.....you may want to check out some of the citations related to
Botrytis, Phytophthora, and Pythium control. Since the publication doesn't
seem to be available on the Internet yet, I have quickly reviewed the
citations and am forwarding to you select citations, some of which you may
already have in hand, but you never can tell....
Elad Y, Shtienberg D. Effects of compost water extracts on grey mould,
Botrytis cinerea. Crop Protection 1994; 13 (2):109-114.
Stindt A, Weltzien HC. Der Einfluss von wassrigen, mikrobiologisch aktiven
Extrakten von kompostiertem organischen Material auf Botrytis cinerea.
Rijisuniversiteit Gent 1988;53: 379-388. Mededelingen Faculteit
Landbouwwetenschappen.
Hoitink HA, van Doren DM, Schmitthenner AF. Suppression of Phytophthora
cinnamomi in a composted bark potting medium. Phytopathology 1977;
67:561-565
Ketterer N, Weltzien HC. Wirkung von Kompostund Midroorganismen Extraklenauf
den Befall ter Kartoffeldurch Phytophthera infestans. Mitt. Biol.
Bundesanst. 1988:245-346.
Boehm MJ, Madden LV, Hoitink HA. Effect of organic matter decompostion
level on bacterial species diversity and composition in relationship to
Pythium damping-off severity. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 1993;59:4171-4179.
Chen W, Hoitink HA, Madden LV. Microbial activity and biomass in container
media predictiong suppressiveness to damping-off caused by Pythium ultimum.
Phytopath. 1988;78:1447-1450.
Hadar Y, Mandelbaum R. Suppression of Pythium aphanidermatum damping-off in
container media containing composted liquorice roots. Crop Protect. 1986;
5:88-92.
Hoitink HA, Kuter GA. Effects of compost in growth media on soilborne plant
pathogens. In: The Role of Organic Matter in Modern Agriculture. Y. Chen &
Y. Avnimelech (eds), Martinus Nyhoff Publ., Dordrecht and The Netherlands.
1985. pgs. 28 9-306.
Hoitink HA, Fahy PC. Basis for the control of soil-borne plant pathogens
with composts. Annual Rev. Phytopath. 1986; 24:93-114.
Boehm MJ, Hoitink HA. Sustenance of microbial activity and severity of
Pythium root rot of Poinsettia. Phytopath. 1992;82: 259-264.
Redmond RD, Marois JJ, MacDonald JD. Biological control of Botrytis cinerea
on roses with epiphytic microorganisms. Plant Disease 1987;71: 799-802.
Wood R. The control of diseases on lettuce by the use of antagonistic
organisms. 1. The control of Botrytis cinerea Pers. Ann. Appl. Biol. 1951;
38: 203-216.
Just a sampling there. I know you have had some problems in the past with
water-borne plant pathogens in your systems there at UVI. Hope this helps
some....
Good Luck...
Ted
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| Message 21
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Subject: Re: worms as feed and solids removal
From: "TGTX"
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 15:37:56 -0600
Gordon wrote:
> in my fish vats so I do get some incidental feed value. The one area where
> they may be justifiable as fish feed is in conditioning breeding stock.
That is a most excellent suggestion. Broodstock reproductive development
can benefit from earthworms and other live feed stocks that have fresh,
essential fatty acids (EFAs) that have not been denatured, heat treated,
oxidized, or become rancid, as some pelleted feeds can sometimes
offer....EFAs and EFA stability are the areas I would most concentrate on in
formulating pelleted feeds from good feed stock sources...
Ted
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| Message 22
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Subject: Re: Simplest description of a small anaerobic digester
From: "David E. McCall"
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 13:43:04 -0800 (PST)
Actually, it depends on the temperature of the system and the hydraulic
retention time. Some of those bugs are hard to kill.
On Sun, 11 Feb 2001 09:25:46 -0600, aquaponics@townsqr.com wrote:
> I'm pretty sure that the product of a combined aerobic/anaerobic
> digester does, I don't know about straight anaerobic. May Raul
> Vergueiro Martins will jump in and clarify this for us.
>
> Adriana
>
>
> > Does the fermentation in anaerobic digestion kill enough pathogens
> > to use THAT effluent for the hydroponics system?
>
>
David E. McCall
David_E._McCall@Excite.com
_______________________________________________________
Send a cool gift with your E-Card
http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/
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| Message 23
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Subject: Re: Simplest description of a small anaerobic digester
From: "James Rakocy"
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 19:02:30 -0400
Thanks Ted, Temperature and varietal resistance seem to be the best bet for
now. Plus aquaponic systems generally run the color of tea from organic
waste (vegetative matter) decomposition. At least this slows pythium. Some
crops such as cantaloupe, hot peppers, and okra are very resistant so we
will just grow these seasonally when the water warms in the summer. Jim R.
> But, Dr. Jim, back to Merrill's compost tea article...in the OFRF
> bulletin.....you may want to check out some of the citations related to
> Botrytis, Phytophthora, and Pythium control. Since the publication
doesn't
> seem to be available on the Internet yet, I have quickly reviewed the
> citations and am forwarding to you select citations, some of which you may
> already have in hand, but you never can tell....
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| Message 24
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Subject: Re: Simplest description of a small anaerobic digester
From: "Bennett"
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 18:15:05 -0500
Just what is the optimum temperature to do the anaerobic digestion?
Ditto - temperature for killing "bad bugs" without destroying the "good
bugs"?
> Actually, it depends on the temperature of the system and the hydraulic
> retention time. Some of those bugs are hard to kill.
>
> > I'm pretty sure that the product of a combined aerobic/anaerobic
> > digester does, I don't know about straight anaerobic. May Raul
> > Vergueiro Martins will jump in and clarify this for us.
> >
> > > Does the fermentation in anaerobic digestion kill enough pathogens
> > > to use THAT effluent for the hydroponics system?
> >
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| Message 25
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Subject: Re: Simplest description of a small anaerobic digester
From: fishmanbruce@webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 17:41:59 -0600 (CST)
Hey Ted thanks . It seems like we got our start the same way at the
same time from the same guys with the same books from the same
institute. I look up from this console and the books you mentioned are
mostly rite there except for the one the dog ate and i still have part
of it .If the dog tries that again ill stir fry him!
Bruce
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| Message 26
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Subject: Re: Simplest description of a small anaerobic digester
From: Raul Vergueiro Martins
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 22:32:28 +0000
Hi Adriana:
I would call the process "anaerobic bodigestion".
Yes, when conducted in a multiphase biodigester, you can destroy pathogens during the
process, and they will not be present in the biofertilizer.
Best regards
Raul Vergueiro Martins
rvm@sti.com.br
Adriana Gutierrez wrote:
> I'm pretty sure that the product of a combined aerobic/anaerobic
> digester does, I don't know about straight anaerobic. May Raul
> Vergueiro Martins will jump in and clarify this for us.
>
> Adriana
>
> > Does the fermentation in anaerobic digestion kill enough pathogens
> > to use THAT effluent for the hydroponics system?
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| Message 27
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Subject: Re: Simplest description of a small anaerobic digester
From: "TGTX"
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 18:58:00 -0600
> Hey Ted thanks . It seems like we got our start the same way at the
> same time from the same guys with the same books from the same
> institute.
Ya, Bruce, Lucky for me I got some other influence from some other Book and
from some other Institute and from some other Guy along the way....How sad
indeed if Stewart Brand and Bucky Fuller were my only inspirations......but,
indeed, those Portola Beatnick guys and gals had.... and apparently still
have.... a few good things to say and do with growin' food, doin' solar
work, and generatin' economic activity....
Sorting the candy from the compost is what I have found to be the most
rewarding aspect of being "influenced", and then going beyond that passive
role by doin' some influencing of my own, in turn, with a few personal
twists...... I want to encourage people to keep experimenting and trying
things that are good and interesting and promising.....Creating Stuff....
The Time is Short, This Age is Coming to a Close......So Look Busy!!
Ted
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| Message 28
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Subject: bio-diesel
From: "timjohanns"
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 21:03:03 -0800
There is a huge detailed article in the Jan.-Feb. 2001 issue of Countryside
Magazine, dealing with the home production of bio-diesel. There is a
windmill on the cover. It includes some detailed instruction including
chemistry, and diagrams. It may be available on-line. www.countrysidemag.com
will get you there. Home Power Magazine would be a good source too. Enjoy.
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| Message 29
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Subject: red claw-late
From: "timjohanns"
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 21:15:12 -0800
Ok, so I've been busy, and not watching the e-mail. I have 728 messages, and
this is late....but....I raise Red Claw, and have had then reproduce several
hundred of which I have about 20 left, and they are beating each other up. I
will not start another group until I can build a controlled pond under a
greenhouse (cold-frame) with a mud /sand mixture bottom, and tainted color
water. They are most tasty, Lord knows I've had enough die to eat them, but
they are fighters. I'm in north-central Iowa. We have a 36" snow base, and
it's 60 degrees in the house, 10 below outside.
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| Message 30
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Subject: Re: Water Question
From: "STEVE SPRING"
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 23:11:43 -0600
Hi Wylie,
No, I wasn't. I know them quite well. Been doing business with them for some
time...GREAT BUNCH OF PEOPLE.
There was someone on this list who asked me where I got the 1/20th hp
in-tank aerator from. I replied that it was from Ken's, but I didn't have
their email at that moment.
I was commenting on the good prices that Ken has on various items. (Not
necessarily the cheapest in the world on everything, but overall very, very
reasonable.) For example, I just bought a gallon of "Microbe-Lift Aqua-C"
for algae control, ammonio & nitrate reduction, etc. etc. Ken's price on
this is $50/gal. I have seen it advertised other places for $24.95/qt. (Yes,
I'm sure if someone digs hard enough, they can beat this price. But the
overall quality and trustworthiness of Ken's Hatchery and Fish Farm is, I
believe, A+.)
For any of you interested, Ken's phone # is: 912-532-6135. His website is,
as Wylie mentioned: www.kens-fishfarm.com
Ken is the creator of the Georgia Giant Hybrid Bream (Bluegill). These are
what I will be stocking my pond with this spring. Give Ken a call and he
will send you his catalogue.It is not just a catalogue to buy things. It has
a lot of good information, stories about the GA Giant, etc. It is well worth
having and it is free.
Tell him that Steve from Milwaukee sent you. As I said earlier, he's a "Good
Ole Georgia Boy".
Thanks & take care...............Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "wylie bass"
To:
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2001 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: Water Question
Steve,
If you looking for Ken's Fish Farm go to www.kens-fishfarm.com and your
georgia bound. Wylie
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| Message 31
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Subject: Re: worms as feed and solids removal
From: "STEVE SPRING"
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 23:37:30 -0600
Hi Gordon,
What exactly are the wigglers you speak of? Can they be purchased from a
bait shop? I'm having trouble with algae beds and you say the wigglers help
breaking them down.
Thanks.........Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gordon Watkins"
To:
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2001 11:06 AM
Subject: Re: worms as feed and solids removal
Ben,
Below is some info on nutritional value of red wigglers (E. foetida).
While they are an excellent feed source, I agree with other responses you've
gotten that they are too valuable to use for that purpose. You'd be ahead
(economically at least) to sell the worms and purchase the feed. I did
inoculate my gravel beds with wigglers however, and they are now well
populated. I find that they help break down solids and algae mats, prevent
compaction by bringing castings to the surface, and I frequently notice
babies
in my fish vats so I do get some incidental feed value. The one area where
they may be justifiable as fish feed is in conditioning breeding stock.
Gordon Watkins
Chemical composition of E.foetida meal
Wet Basis (%)
Protein (N x 6,25)
66,8 +-
3,2
Lipids (As EE)
8,8
+- 0,9
Humidity
7,3 +- 0,7
Ashes
8,4 +- 0,6
Crude fiber
1,3 +- 0,8
Carbohidrates
1,2
+- 0,2
Non proteic nitrogen
5,7
+- 0,4
Other constituents
0,5
+- 0,3
Aminoacidic content and composition of E.foetida meal
Aminoacid Gr. o aminoacid per 100 gr
of
protein
+ Lisyne 12,51
Histidine
2,51
Arginine
7,03
+ Tryptophane 0,29
Asparctic acid 11,01
+ Treonine
3,76
Serine
3,30
Glutamic acid
13,57
Proline
4,47
Glicine
5,22
Alanine
5,54
Cisteine
4,23
+
Valine
6,14
+ Metionine
1,53
+
Isoleucine
4,73
+
Leucine
7,39
Tirosine
3,23
+ Phenilalanine
3,54
(+) Human essential aacids
bberry wrote:
> ... Does anyone know about the nutrient content of
> these critters?
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