Aquaponics Digest - Tue 04/03/01
Message 1: Re: Firewalls/Virus'
from "Adriana Gutierrez"
Message 2: Re: Firewalls/Virus'
from "Mary Whitney"
Message 3: Re: Firewalls/Virus'
from Ian Franzmann
Message 4: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Mon 04/02/01
from "Stan Clayton"
Message 5: hurtin' fish
from "Devon Williams"
Message 6: Re: Spinach anyone??
from "STEVE SPRING"
Message 7: Re: Firewalls/Virus'
from "STEVE SPRING"
Message 8: Re: hurtin' fish
from "STEVE SPRING"
Message 9: Ref: Firewalls, viruses, etc.
from "STEVE SPRING"
Message 10: Re: hurtin' fish
from Mark_Brotman 'at' kinetico.com
Message 11: Re: hurtin' fish
from "Devon Williams"
Message 12: Re: hurtin' fish
from "Devon Williams"
Message 13: Re: Spinach anyone??
from "Adriana Gutierrez"
Message 14: Re: hurtin' fish
from "Devon Williams"
Message 15: Re: hurtin' fish
from Mark_Brotman 'at' kinetico.com
Message 16: Re: hurtin' fish
from "Devon Williams"
Message 17: Re: hurtin' fish
from Mark_Brotman 'at' kinetico.com
Message 18: RE: spinach anyone?
from "Charlie Shultz"
Message 19: Gold fish - Koi
from "Chris Jeppesen"
Message 20: Re : Hurting Fish
from laberge 'at' cil.qc.ca (LABERGE MARC)
Message 21: Re: Gold fish - Koi
from fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber)
Message 22: Re: hurtin' fish
from fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber)
Message 23: Re: Firewalls/Virus'
from fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber)
Message 24: Re: hurtin' fish
from Mike Davey
Message 25: Re : Hurting Fish [Long]
from Michael Grey
Message 26: Re: Gold fish - Koi
from marc 'at' aculink.net
| Message 1
Subject: Re: Firewalls/Virus'
From: "Adriana Gutierrez"
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 00:23:42 -0500
> Outlook Express to send out an e-mail to the porn site's mail
server. This
> gives them your e-mail address and then it is nearly impossible to
block
> because they use a different temporary e-mail address each time to
send you
> offensive e-mails with links to their web pages.
I wound up blocking ALL mail from the ISP in question and it stopped
the attacks. I must have gotten 5 or 6 attacks before then. Since
then it has stopped.
| Message 2
Subject: Re: Firewalls/Virus'
From: "Mary Whitney"
Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 22:51:17 -0700
Hello all...I'm sure glad I missed out on this one! but it may be in part because I do not use
Outlook or any MS programs ..well sometimes I do use IE, but not often.
I am new to the list and am hoping to play with a few wiskey barrels turned into goldfish ponds
this summer and have the water circulate back through a gutter with lettuce in it.
How long should the tanks be established with fish before planting?
Has anyone done tilapia and lettuce or tomatoes?
Mary Whitney
--
www.whitneysorchard.com
Growing the best fruit, and vegetables. See us at the Woodinville Farmers Market
Home of quality French Lops, Mini Lops, Havanas and red Mini Rex
--
| Message 3
Subject: Re: Firewalls/Virus'
From: Ian Franzmann
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 22:50:10 +1000
Hi Roy
I had an attack that froze my machine and could only allow me to follow the
white rectangle error message saying you are out of memory (I have 256Mb)
and need to close some programs so I could continue running The first
program it asked me to shut down was ZoneAlarm, this gave the game away
because I had not come across any MS screen error message like this before.
I was running Win95. The only way to recover was to hit the resetbutton.
I dont use MS E-mail systems so I have been free of offline system problems.
I am concerned at a Email Pop address for my ISP as it flashes on the
screen during transmission changing to buffy 'at' Myaddress.com.au It was the
reply I sent last to the List to TED. The Email did get to the Aquaponics
list ok, it also may have gone elsewere not authorized.
The my email name change to buffy during transmission is very suspicious.
I am going to take closer notice to other than list emails sent, to see if
it repeats the address change. I use Eudora Pro 4.
Roy have you seen this before or can anyone on the list explain what may be
happening here.
Ian
>
>BE WARNED however that this is the intended attack method. Turning off
>zonealarm while still attached/logged onto the internet will then allow a
>trojan horse to be loaded onto your machine. It then executes at a later
>date. There are a couple of variants around. I've heard of the IE version
>Ted mentioned, but I haven't seen it. The other variant causes Outlook or
>Outlook Express to send out an e-mail to the porn site's mail server. This
>gives them your e-mail address and then it is nearly impossible to block
>because they use a different temporary e-mail address each time to send you
>offensive e-mails with links to their web pages.
| Message 4
Subject: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Mon 04/02/01
From: "Stan Clayton"
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 07:03:11 -0700
Hola, Carlos...! ;)
Hey everyone, the manual Carlos refers to can be read at
http://www.cals.cornell.edu/dept/flori/spinach/
Click on the "Menu" link...
Stan
> Subject: RE: Spinach anyone??
> From: "Carlos R. Arano"
> Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 08:41:37 -0300
>
> Adriana and friends interested in Spinach:
> I will recommend you take a look of:
> "A Handbook for Production of CEA-Grown Hydroponic Spinach" from Cornell
> University.
> --snip
> Regards to all of you.
> Carlos
| Message 5
Subject: hurtin' fish
From: "Devon Williams"
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 10:31:44 -0400
Hi everybody.
O.k., so I solved the problem with my "super-sucker" fish tank pump, and now
I have another problem...
When I went to check on my fish this morning, many of them (probably 30 or
so) had really bad problems with their tail fins. Some of their tails were
almost non-existent...I checked the pH, and it was at about 7.4, the ammonia
level was higher than when I first introduced the fish on Friday (when the
amonia was non-existent) at between 5 and 7 ppm...I didn't measure DO, but
the fish didn't seem to be presenting with any oxygen symptoms, such as
gasping for breath at the surface, etc.
Another fish had a obvious wound on its side. This is the only specimen
that I noticed with this problem.
One thing I noticed, but am not sure if it will make a difference is that
the "current" in my tank is rather brisk. The fish don't ever seem to get a
chance to rest due to the constant swimming they are doing against the
current. Could this be a problem???
I've looked in the books that I have and can't find anything convincing.
I have made a crude web page with pictures of a couple of the fish. You can
find it at
http://www.mindspring.com/~mcconnellms/staff/dwilliams/fishpics.html
I would really appreciate it if some of you could take a look and tell me
what you think.
Thanks!
Devon Williams
Beer Belly Brothers Brewing
Watkinsville, GA
ooooo
|..oo=|
|...o |
|...| |
|...|=|
|___|
_
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
| Message 6
Subject: Re: Spinach anyone??
From: "STEVE SPRING"
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 10:40:42 -0500
Hi Jay,
You mentioned "spray it in". I have noticed that I have to plant a lot of
lettuce seeds (and sometimes replant) to get them growing in the gravel
beds. Would you (others welcome to jump in) recommend "spraying in" lettuce
seeds as well. Now, to the dumber question, "spraying in" with what? I have
used a liquid fertilizer in the past when trying to get plants to start.
Am I not doing something basic here?
ThanksSteve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jay Myers"
To:
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 7:21 PM
Subject: Re: Spinach anyone??
Mike -
I grew, and still do grow it. I just sprinkle the seed into the pea gravel,
spray it in, and I have little plants in 2-5 days. My gravel stays about 75
degrees F., so temp is good. It grows really good, and eats that way too.
Jay
Panama City Beach, Fl.
| Message 7
Subject: Re: Firewalls/Virus'
From: "STEVE SPRING"
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 11:03:37 -0500
WOW Mary,
You are on the "Tilapia, lettuce & tomatos" aquaponics list. I think there
may be one or two of us. ;)
I will let the gurus handle this.
(See guys, I can be nice!)
See Ya...Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mary Whitney"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 12:51 AM
Subject: Re: Firewalls/Virus'
Hello all...I'm sure glad I missed out on this one! but it may be in part
because I do not use Outlook or any MS programs ..well sometimes I do use
IE, but not often.
I am new to the list and am hoping to play with a few wiskey barrels turned
into goldfish ponds this summer and have the water circulate back through a
gutter with lettuce in it.
How long should the tanks be established with fish before planting?
Has anyone done tilapia and lettuce or tomatoes?
Mary Whitney
--
www.whitneysorchard.com
Growing the best fruit, and vegetables. See us at the Woodinville Farmers
Market
Home of quality French Lops, Mini Lops, Havanas and red Mini Rex
--
| Message 8
Subject: Re: hurtin' fish
From: "STEVE SPRING"
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 11:40:04 -0500
Hi Devon,
I'm going to be very careful with my response. And I'm going to ask Ted,
Bruce, Adrianna and some of the other subscribers to jump in on this. I
mention these people only because they are some of the folks who come to
mind who have very clinical minds. (I include myself in this group, but not
to the degree that these fine folks are.)
I think you have a nitrate/nitrite problem. (Man, I'm going out on a limb
here!) I have a very good Hatch test kit. The only problem with it is that
the nitrate/nitrite testing process is so complicated that it takes a
nuclear scientist to figure it out. (I called the people at Hatch and THEY
couldn't even explain what they had written.) (I'm a respiratory therapist
& my wife is a R.N. and we both have a fair degree of schooling which
includes chemistry, flow dynamics, blah, blah, blah and we couldn't
understand the booklet.)
I had the same problem that you have & I felt that nitrates/nitrites was
probably my problem. I contacted my "friend" down in Georgia: Ken Holyoak of
Ken's Fish Farm & Hatchery. He made me feel much better. He told me that the
Best Hatch test kit was way too complicated and he had even stopped using
it. He sent me a different kit. Well, I'm rambling now.....been up too
longTo make a long story short: He told me, in "good ole boy Georgia
english", Steve, Nitrates/nitrites are poison to fish. You don't want ANY! A
.25 ppm is an acceptable level. (Now, that may be impossible to attain in
concentrated fish farming.)
Now Devon you say you have a 7 - 8 ppm. You might as well add cyanide to
your water. (I'm not being rude. I made the same mistake.)
I corrected my problem with concerns to nitrates/nitrites, DO and water
clarity in one step. I was going post this to the list in the next couple
of days because I'm brain dead right now. I was going to entitle it, "Paula,
you never told me to change my underwear". It is kind of cute and how we, I,
can overlook the obvious. I am still going to do this, but not today.
Take care.Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Devon Williams"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 9:31 AM
Subject: hurtin' fish
Hi everybody.
O.k., so I solved the problem with my "super-sucker" fish tank pump, and now
I have another problem...
When I went to check on my fish this morning, many of them (probably 30 or
so) had really bad problems with their tail fins. Some of their tails were
almost non-existent...I checked the pH, and it was at about 7.4, the ammonia
level was higher than when I first introduced the fish on Friday (when the
amonia was non-existent) at between 5 and 7 ppm...I didn't measure DO, but
the fish didn't seem to be presenting with any oxygen symptoms, such as
gasping for breath at the surface, etc.
Another fish had a obvious wound on its side. This is the only specimen
that I noticed with this problem.
One thing I noticed, but am not sure if it will make a difference is that
the "current" in my tank is rather brisk. The fish don't ever seem to get a
chance to rest due to the constant swimming they are doing against the
current. Could this be a problem???
I've looked in the books that I have and can't find anything convincing.
I have made a crude web page with pictures of a couple of the fish. You can
find it at
http://www.mindspring.com/~mcconnellms/staff/dwilliams/fishpics.html
I would really appreciate it if some of you could take a look and tell me
what you think.
Thanks!
Devon Williams
Beer Belly Brothers Brewing
Watkinsville, GA
ooooo
|..oo=|
|...o |
|...| |
|...|=|
|___|
_
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
| Message 9
Subject: Ref: Firewalls, viruses, etc.
From: "STEVE SPRING"
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 11:49:28 -0500
Hi guys,
You know, we are just a bunch of people trying to make something work.
Trying to grow vegetables and/or fish. Trying to supplement income or
supplement food or just for fun or whatever.
Why would someone want to plant a virus to hurt us? It is kind of like
"kicking the school crossing guard".
Does this just absolutely scare the HELL out of anyone besides me? What
happens next? What happens when one of these SOB's gain the capacity to
LAUNCHYou know.it's possible.
O.K. I'm going to bed now. Night All
Steve
| Message 10
Subject: Re: hurtin' fish
From: Mark_Brotman 'at' kinetico.com
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 12:44:20 -0400
Devon,
Back off on your feed. Ammonia is really getting too high. After the
ammonia spike comes the nitrite spike, which can be even more harmful. If
you don't have plants associated with the fish water right now, put some
uniodized salt in with the fish to help them deal with their current stress
and the coming nitrite spike. If you just put them in on Friday and the
tails are rotting right now, then there was probably something that came in
with them like a fungus or bacteria that has begun to express itself with
their current stress levels. Ideally, new fish should be quarantined
before putting into the system's growing tanks. New fish should always be
dipped in something before introduction as well, like a 1-3% salt bath for
as long as they can stand it. That usually takes care of the parasites and
many other "unwanteds." They can handle not being fed for a few days. You
may want to do a partial water exchange right now as well, e.g., about 20%,
to help get them over this particular hump. By the way, what is your water
source (looking for other stressors like chloramine in municipal supplies)?
Mark Brotman
"Devon Williams" 'at' townsqr.com on 04/03/2001 10:31:44
AM
Please respond to aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
Sent by: aquaponics-request 'at' townsqr.com
To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
cc:
Subject: hurtin' fish
Hi everybody.
O.k., so I solved the problem with my "super-sucker" fish tank pump, and
now
I have another problem...
When I went to check on my fish this morning, many of them (probably 30 or
so) had really bad problems with their tail fins. Some of their tails were
almost non-existent...I checked the pH, and it was at about 7.4, the
ammonia
level was higher than when I first introduced the fish on Friday (when the
amonia was non-existent) at between 5 and 7 ppm...I didn't measure DO, but
the fish didn't seem to be presenting with any oxygen symptoms, such as
gasping for breath at the surface, etc.
Another fish had a obvious wound on its side. This is the only specimen
that I noticed with this problem.
One thing I noticed, but am not sure if it will make a difference is that
the "current" in my tank is rather brisk. The fish don't ever seem to get
a
chance to rest due to the constant swimming they are doing against the
current. Could this be a problem???
I've looked in the books that I have and can't find anything convincing.
I have made a crude web page with pictures of a couple of the fish. You
can
find it at
http://www.mindspring.com/~mcconnellms/staff/dwilliams/fishpics.html
I would really appreciate it if some of you could take a look and tell me
what you think.
Thanks!
Devon Williams
Beer Belly Brothers Brewing
Watkinsville, GA
ooooo
|..oo=|
|...o |
|...| |
|...|=|
|___|
_
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
| Message 11
Subject: Re: hurtin' fish
From: "Devon Williams"
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 12:56:56 -0400
Hey Steve,
Thanks for the response. I have one question though...in your note, you
said, (snip)"Now Devon you say you have a 7 - 8 ppm. You might as well add
cyanide to your water. (I'm not being rude. I made the same mistake.)"...The
only number near that that I gave in my original post was for ammonia, and
it was in the 5-7ppm range. Is that what you were referring to?
How can I lower my ammonia level? and my nitrite/nitrate level (if it is
high)???
Thanks,
Devon
>From: "STEVE SPRING"
>Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>To:
>Subject: Re: hurtin' fish
>Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 11:40:04 -0500
>
>Hi Devon,
>
>I'm going to be very careful with my response. And I'm going to ask Ted,
>Bruce, Adrianna and some of the other subscribers to jump in on this. I
>mention these people only because they are some of the folks who come to
>mind who have very clinical minds. (I include myself in this group, but
>not
>to the degree that these fine folks are.)
>
>I think you have a nitrate/nitrite problem. (Man, I'm going out on a limb
>here!) I have a very good Hatch test kit. The only problem with it is that
>the nitrate/nitrite testing process is so complicated that it takes a
>nuclear scientist to figure it out. (I called the people at Hatch and THEY
>couldn't even explain what they had written.) (I'm a respiratory therapist
>& my wife is a R.N. and we both have a fair degree of schooling which
>includes chemistry, flow dynamics, blah, blah, blah and we couldn't
>understand the booklet.)
>
>I had the same problem that you have & I felt that nitrates/nitrites was
>probably my problem. I contacted my "friend" down in Georgia: Ken Holyoak
>of
>Ken's Fish Farm & Hatchery. He made me feel much better. He told me that
>the
>Best Hatch test kit was way too complicated and he had even stopped using
>it. He sent me a different kit. Well, I'm rambling now.....been up too
>longTo make a long story short: He told me, in "good ole boy Georgia
>english", Steve, Nitrates/nitrites are poison to fish. You don't want ANY!
>A
>.25 ppm is an acceptable level. (Now, that may be impossible to attain in
>concentrated fish farming.)
>
>Now Devon you say you have a 7 - 8 ppm. You might as well add cyanide to
>your water. (I'm not being rude. I made the same mistake.)
>
>I corrected my problem with concerns to nitrates/nitrites, DO and water
>clarity in one step. I was going post this to the list in the next couple
>of days because I'm brain dead right now. I was going to entitle it,
>"Paula,
>you never told me to change my underwear". It is kind of cute and how we,
>I,
>can overlook the obvious. I am still going to do this, but not today.
>
>Take care.Steve
>
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Devon Williams"
>To:
>Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 9:31 AM
>Subject: hurtin' fish
>
>
>Hi everybody.
>
>O.k., so I solved the problem with my "super-sucker" fish tank pump, and
>now
>I have another problem...
>
>When I went to check on my fish this morning, many of them (probably 30 or
>so) had really bad problems with their tail fins. Some of their tails were
>almost non-existent...I checked the pH, and it was at about 7.4, the
>ammonia
>level was higher than when I first introduced the fish on Friday (when the
>amonia was non-existent) at between 5 and 7 ppm...I didn't measure DO, but
>the fish didn't seem to be presenting with any oxygen symptoms, such as
>gasping for breath at the surface, etc.
>
>Another fish had a obvious wound on its side. This is the only specimen
>that I noticed with this problem.
>
>One thing I noticed, but am not sure if it will make a difference is that
>the "current" in my tank is rather brisk. The fish don't ever seem to get
>a
>chance to rest due to the constant swimming they are doing against the
>current. Could this be a problem???
>
>I've looked in the books that I have and can't find anything convincing.
>
>I have made a crude web page with pictures of a couple of the fish. You
>can
>find it at
>http://www.mindspring.com/~mcconnellms/staff/dwilliams/fishpics.html
>I would really appreciate it if some of you could take a look and tell me
>what you think.
>
>Thanks!
>
>
>
>Devon Williams
>Beer Belly Brothers Brewing
>Watkinsville, GA
>
> ooooo
> |..oo=|
> |...o |
> |...| |
> |...|=|
> |___|
>
>_
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
_
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
| Message 12
Subject: Re: hurtin' fish
From: "Devon Williams"
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 13:04:02 -0400
Mark,
I have barely fed them, so I don't think the feeding is the issue. When you
say uniodized salts, do you mean something like epsom salts? How much would
you suggest for a 125 gallon tank?
My water source is your basic tap water from the city, not a well. Should I
test for chloramine? what else might been in "your basic tap water"???
This is super frustrating because I used to keep LOTS of tropical fish in
aquariums (south american (oscars) and african cichlids (assorted) mostly),
and I feel as though I was a pretty good "parent".
Thanks.
Devon
>From: Mark_Brotman 'at' kinetico.com
>Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>Subject: Re: hurtin' fish
>Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 12:44:20 -0400
>
>
>Devon,
>Back off on your feed. Ammonia is really getting too high. After the
>ammonia spike comes the nitrite spike, which can be even more harmful. If
>you don't have plants associated with the fish water right now, put some
>uniodized salt in with the fish to help them deal with their current stress
>and the coming nitrite spike. If you just put them in on Friday and the
>tails are rotting right now, then there was probably something that came in
>with them like a fungus or bacteria that has begun to express itself with
>their current stress levels. Ideally, new fish should be quarantined
>before putting into the system's growing tanks. New fish should always be
>dipped in something before introduction as well, like a 1-3% salt bath for
>as long as they can stand it. That usually takes care of the parasites and
>many other "unwanteds." They can handle not being fed for a few days. You
>may want to do a partial water exchange right now as well, e.g., about 20%,
>to help get them over this particular hump. By the way, what is your water
>source (looking for other stressors like chloramine in municipal supplies)?
>
>Mark Brotman
>
>
>
>
>
>"Devon Williams" 'at' townsqr.com on 04/03/2001 10:31:44
>AM
>
>Please respond to aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>
>Sent by: aquaponics-request 'at' townsqr.com
>
>
>To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>cc:
>Subject: hurtin' fish
>
>
>Hi everybody.
>
>O.k., so I solved the problem with my "super-sucker" fish tank pump, and
>now
>I have another problem...
>
>When I went to check on my fish this morning, many of them (probably 30 or
>so) had really bad problems with their tail fins. Some of their tails were
>almost non-existent...I checked the pH, and it was at about 7.4, the
>ammonia
>level was higher than when I first introduced the fish on Friday (when the
>amonia was non-existent) at between 5 and 7 ppm...I didn't measure DO, but
>the fish didn't seem to be presenting with any oxygen symptoms, such as
>gasping for breath at the surface, etc.
>
>Another fish had a obvious wound on its side. This is the only specimen
>that I noticed with this problem.
>
>One thing I noticed, but am not sure if it will make a difference is that
>the "current" in my tank is rather brisk. The fish don't ever seem to get
>a
>chance to rest due to the constant swimming they are doing against the
>current. Could this be a problem???
>
>I've looked in the books that I have and can't find anything convincing.
>
>I have made a crude web page with pictures of a couple of the fish. You
>can
>find it at
>http://www.mindspring.com/~mcconnellms/staff/dwilliams/fishpics.html
>I would really appreciate it if some of you could take a look and tell me
>what you think.
>
>Thanks!
>
>
>
>Devon Williams
>Beer Belly Brothers Brewing
>Watkinsville, GA
>
> ooooo
> |..oo=|
> |...o |
> |...| |
> |...|=|
> |___|
>
>_
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
>
>
_
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
| Message 13
Subject: Re: Spinach anyone??
From: "Adriana Gutierrez"
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 11:56:50 -0500
Steve, you "sprinkle" the seed in using a shaker can (like for garlic
flakes, parmesan cheese, etc."; the "spray it in" with WATER from a
hose to get it settled into the media...
> You mentioned "spray it in". I have noticed that I have to plant a
lot of
> lettuce seeds (and sometimes replant) to get them growing in the
gravel
> beds.
| Message 14
Subject: Re: hurtin' fish
From: "Devon Williams"
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 13:08:12 -0400
Oh, and by the way, I do have some plants in the growing bed right now.
Tomato transplants (seem to be growing really well), and I have seeded with
spinach, lettuces, and other herbs...some of which are sprouting and
beginning to grow.
Maybe there isn't enough growth yet to offset the ammonia produced by the
fish???
Devon
>From: "Devon Williams"
>Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>Subject: Re: hurtin' fish
>Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 13:04:02 -0400
>
>Mark,
>
>I have barely fed them, so I don't think the feeding is the issue. When
>you
>say uniodized salts, do you mean something like epsom salts? How much
>would
>you suggest for a 125 gallon tank?
>
>My water source is your basic tap water from the city, not a well. Should
>I
>test for chloramine? what else might been in "your basic tap water"???
>
>This is super frustrating because I used to keep LOTS of tropical fish in
>aquariums (south american (oscars) and african cichlids (assorted) mostly),
>and I feel as though I was a pretty good "parent".
>
>Thanks.
>
>Devon
>
>
>>From: Mark_Brotman 'at' kinetico.com
>>Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>>To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>>Subject: Re: hurtin' fish
>>Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 12:44:20 -0400
>>
>>
>>Devon,
>>Back off on your feed. Ammonia is really getting too high. After the
>>ammonia spike comes the nitrite spike, which can be even more harmful. If
>>you don't have plants associated with the fish water right now, put some
>>uniodized salt in with the fish to help them deal with their current
>>stress
>>and the coming nitrite spike. If you just put them in on Friday and the
>>tails are rotting right now, then there was probably something that came
>>in
>>with them like a fungus or bacteria that has begun to express itself with
>>their current stress levels. Ideally, new fish should be quarantined
>>before putting into the system's growing tanks. New fish should always be
>>dipped in something before introduction as well, like a 1-3% salt bath for
>>as long as they can stand it. That usually takes care of the parasites
>>and
>>many other "unwanteds." They can handle not being fed for a few days.
>>You
>>may want to do a partial water exchange right now as well, e.g., about
>>20%,
>>to help get them over this particular hump. By the way, what is your
>>water
>>source (looking for other stressors like chloramine in municipal
>>supplies)?
>>
>>Mark Brotman
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>"Devon Williams" 'at' townsqr.com on 04/03/2001 10:31:44
>>AM
>>
>>Please respond to aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>>
>>Sent by: aquaponics-request 'at' townsqr.com
>>
>>
>>To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>>cc:
>>Subject: hurtin' fish
>>
>>
>>Hi everybody.
>>
>>O.k., so I solved the problem with my "super-sucker" fish tank pump, and
>>now
>>I have another problem...
>>
>>When I went to check on my fish this morning, many of them (probably 30 or
>>so) had really bad problems with their tail fins. Some of their tails
>>were
>>almost non-existent...I checked the pH, and it was at about 7.4, the
>>ammonia
>>level was higher than when I first introduced the fish on Friday (when the
>>amonia was non-existent) at between 5 and 7 ppm...I didn't measure DO, but
>>the fish didn't seem to be presenting with any oxygen symptoms, such as
>>gasping for breath at the surface, etc.
>>
>>Another fish had a obvious wound on its side. This is the only specimen
>>that I noticed with this problem.
>>
>>One thing I noticed, but am not sure if it will make a difference is that
>>the "current" in my tank is rather brisk. The fish don't ever seem to get
>>a
>>chance to rest due to the constant swimming they are doing against the
>>current. Could this be a problem???
>>
>>I've looked in the books that I have and can't find anything convincing.
>>
>>I have made a crude web page with pictures of a couple of the fish. You
>>can
>>find it at
>>http://www.mindspring.com/~mcconnellms/staff/dwilliams/fishpics.html
>>I would really appreciate it if some of you could take a look and tell me
>>what you think.
>>
>>Thanks!
>>
>>
>>
>>Devon Williams
>>Beer Belly Brothers Brewing
>>Watkinsville, GA
>>
>> ooooo
>> |..oo=|
>> |...o |
>> |...| |
>> |...|=|
>> |___|
>>
>>_
>>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>_
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
_
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
| Message 15
Subject: Re: hurtin' fish
From: Mark_Brotman 'at' kinetico.com
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 13:28:43 -0400
Hmm, barely fed and the ammonia is that high already? Maybe it's coming
from dead tissue then. If you've had lots of aquariums already then you
probably are indeed "a good parent" already. A good un-iodized salt
(NaCl) would be, e.g , kosher rock salt. (Epsom is a magnesium salt, which
may provide essential trace nutrients but you wouldn't want to dose the
tank therapeutically with it.) I see that you do have plants in the system
already, so you probably shouldn't add NaCl salt at this point (it will
dehydrate the plants). For future reference, a paper worth looking at on
the subject can be found at
http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/aquanic/publicat/usda_rac/efs/srac/462fs.pdf
If you're using tap water, the chlorine and/or chloramine is guaranteed to
be there (by law) and will have to be removed, preferably prior to contact
with the fish. The test for this is Total Chlorine, since that will pick
up both chlorine and chloramine. LaMotte and Hach make kits, among others;
pool test strips won't do the trick. You can get a carbon cartridge filter
at the hardware store and install it on your tap water line to the tank--
for your size system that would work fine. Another effective alternative
is chemical treatment, e.g., the sodium thiosulfate and it's mixes. Just
take care not to choose a mix that also locks up ammonia, or the biofilter
bacteria won't have anything to work with. If your fish are for eating
make sure that whatever you get is FDA approved.
Mark
"Devon Williams" 'at' townsqr.com on 04/03/2001 01:04:02
PM
Please respond to aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
Sent by: aquaponics-request 'at' townsqr.com
To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
cc:
Subject: Re: hurtin' fish
Mark,
I have barely fed them, so I don't think the feeding is the issue. When
you
say uniodized salts, do you mean something like epsom salts? How much
would
you suggest for a 125 gallon tank?
My water source is your basic tap water from the city, not a well. Should
I
test for chloramine? what else might been in "your basic tap water"???
This is super frustrating because I used to keep LOTS of tropical fish in
aquariums (south american (oscars) and african cichlids (assorted) mostly),
and I feel as though I was a pretty good "parent".
Thanks.
Devon
>From: Mark_Brotman 'at' kinetico.com
>Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>Subject: Re: hurtin' fish
>Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 12:44:20 -0400
>
>
>Devon,
>Back off on your feed. Ammonia is really getting too high. After the
>ammonia spike comes the nitrite spike, which can be even more harmful. If
>you don't have plants associated with the fish water right now, put some
>uniodized salt in with the fish to help them deal with their current
stress
>and the coming nitrite spike. If you just put them in on Friday and the
>tails are rotting right now, then there was probably something that came
in
>with them like a fungus or bacteria that has begun to express itself with
>their current stress levels. Ideally, new fish should be quarantined
>before putting into the system's growing tanks. New fish should always be
>dipped in something before introduction as well, like a 1-3% salt bath for
>as long as they can stand it. That usually takes care of the parasites
and
>many other "unwanteds." They can handle not being fed for a few days.
You
>may want to do a partial water exchange right now as well, e.g., about
20%,
>to help get them over this particular hump. By the way, what is your
water
>source (looking for other stressors like chloramine in municipal
supplies)?
>
>Mark Brotman
>
>
>
>
>
>"Devon Williams" 'at' townsqr.com on 04/03/2001 10:31:44
>AM
>
>Please respond to aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>
>Sent by: aquaponics-request 'at' townsqr.com
>
>
>To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>cc:
>Subject: hurtin' fish
>
>
>Hi everybody.
>
>O.k., so I solved the problem with my "super-sucker" fish tank pump, and
>now
>I have another problem...
>
>When I went to check on my fish this morning, many of them (probably 30 or
>so) had really bad problems with their tail fins. Some of their tails
were
>almost non-existent...I checked the pH, and it was at about 7.4, the
>ammonia
>level was higher than when I first introduced the fish on Friday (when the
>amonia was non-existent) at between 5 and 7 ppm...I didn't measure DO, but
>the fish didn't seem to be presenting with any oxygen symptoms, such as
>gasping for breath at the surface, etc.
>
>Another fish had a obvious wound on its side. This is the only specimen
>that I noticed with this problem.
>
>One thing I noticed, but am not sure if it will make a difference is that
>the "current" in my tank is rather brisk. The fish don't ever seem to get
>a
>chance to rest due to the constant swimming they are doing against the
>current. Could this be a problem???
>
>I've looked in the books that I have and can't find anything convincing.
>
>I have made a crude web page with pictures of a couple of the fish. You
>can
>find it at
>http://www.mindspring.com/~mcconnellms/staff/dwilliams/fishpics.html
>I would really appreciate it if some of you could take a look and tell me
>what you think.
>
>Thanks!
>
>
>
>Devon Williams
>Beer Belly Brothers Brewing
>Watkinsville, GA
>
> ooooo
> |..oo=|
> |...o |
> |...| |
> |...|=|
> |___|
>
>_
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
>
>
_
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
| Message 16
Subject: Re: hurtin' fish
From: "Devon Williams"
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 14:09:48 -0400
The fish were not added to fresh tap water, the water had been recirculating
through the system for some two+ weeks. I assumed that would dissipate the
chlorine/chloramine. Is this true? Any water I add has been sitting out at
least 24 hours to do the same thing. This is how I handled things as a
"tropical fish parent"...
I wouldn't be surprised if it is from the dead tissue, as I have been
removing dead bodies on a pretty regular basis since I got the
fish...unfortunately I could tell that some of the bodies had been dead for
a while (a few somehow got "hidden" underneath my intake pump...yuck)
Any other way to decrease the ammonia? I will do a water transfer, but any
other suggestions otherwise???
Devon
>From: Mark_Brotman 'at' kinetico.com
>Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>Subject: Re: hurtin' fish
>Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 13:28:43 -0400
>
>
>Hmm, barely fed and the ammonia is that high already? Maybe it's coming
>from dead tissue then. If you've had lots of aquariums already then you
>probably are indeed "a good parent" already. A good un-iodized salt
>(NaCl) would be, e.g , kosher rock salt. (Epsom is a magnesium salt, which
>may provide essential trace nutrients but you wouldn't want to dose the
>tank therapeutically with it.) I see that you do have plants in the system
>already, so you probably shouldn't add NaCl salt at this point (it will
>dehydrate the plants). For future reference, a paper worth looking at on
>the subject can be found at
>http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/aquanic/publicat/usda_rac/efs/srac/462fs.pdf
>
>If you're using tap water, the chlorine and/or chloramine is guaranteed to
>be there (by law) and will have to be removed, preferably prior to contact
>with the fish. The test for this is Total Chlorine, since that will pick
>up both chlorine and chloramine. LaMotte and Hach make kits, among others;
>pool test strips won't do the trick. You can get a carbon cartridge filter
>at the hardware store and install it on your tap water line to the tank--
>for your size system that would work fine. Another effective alternative
>is chemical treatment, e.g., the sodium thiosulfate and it's mixes. Just
>take care not to choose a mix that also locks up ammonia, or the biofilter
>bacteria won't have anything to work with. If your fish are for eating
>make sure that whatever you get is FDA approved.
>
>Mark
>
>
>
>
>
>"Devon Williams" 'at' townsqr.com on 04/03/2001 01:04:02
>PM
>
>Please respond to aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>
>Sent by: aquaponics-request 'at' townsqr.com
>
>
>To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>cc:
>Subject: Re: hurtin' fish
>
>
>Mark,
>
>I have barely fed them, so I don't think the feeding is the issue. When
>you
>say uniodized salts, do you mean something like epsom salts? How much
>would
>you suggest for a 125 gallon tank?
>
>My water source is your basic tap water from the city, not a well. Should
>I
>test for chloramine? what else might been in "your basic tap water"???
>
>This is super frustrating because I used to keep LOTS of tropical fish in
>aquariums (south american (oscars) and african cichlids (assorted) mostly),
>and I feel as though I was a pretty good "parent".
>
>Thanks.
>
>Devon
>
>
> >From: Mark_Brotman 'at' kinetico.com
> >Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
> >To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
> >Subject: Re: hurtin' fish
> >Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 12:44:20 -0400
> >
> >
> >Devon,
> >Back off on your feed. Ammonia is really getting too high. After the
> >ammonia spike comes the nitrite spike, which can be even more harmful.
>If
> >you don't have plants associated with the fish water right now, put some
> >uniodized salt in with the fish to help them deal with their current
>stress
> >and the coming nitrite spike. If you just put them in on Friday and
>the
> >tails are rotting right now, then there was probably something that came
>in
> >with them like a fungus or bacteria that has begun to express itself with
> >their current stress levels. Ideally, new fish should be quarantined
> >before putting into the system's growing tanks. New fish should always
>be
> >dipped in something before introduction as well, like a 1-3% salt bath
>for
> >as long as they can stand it. That usually takes care of the parasites
>and
> >many other "unwanteds." They can handle not being fed for a few days.
>You
> >may want to do a partial water exchange right now as well, e.g., about
>20%,
> >to help get them over this particular hump. By the way, what is your
>water
> >source (looking for other stressors like chloramine in municipal
>supplies)?
> >
> >Mark Brotman
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >"Devon Williams" 'at' townsqr.com on 04/03/2001 10:31:44
> >AM
> >
> >Please respond to aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
> >
> >Sent by: aquaponics-request 'at' townsqr.com
> >
> >
> >To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
> >cc:
> >Subject: hurtin' fish
> >
> >
> >Hi everybody.
> >
> >O.k., so I solved the problem with my "super-sucker" fish tank pump, and
> >now
> >I have another problem...
> >
> >When I went to check on my fish this morning, many of them (probably 30
>or
> >so) had really bad problems with their tail fins. Some of their tails
>were
> >almost non-existent...I checked the pH, and it was at about 7.4, the
> >ammonia
> >level was higher than when I first introduced the fish on Friday (when
>the
> >amonia was non-existent) at between 5 and 7 ppm...I didn't measure DO,
>but
> >the fish didn't seem to be presenting with any oxygen symptoms, such as
> >gasping for breath at the surface, etc.
> >
> >Another fish had a obvious wound on its side. This is the only specimen
> >that I noticed with this problem.
> >
> >One thing I noticed, but am not sure if it will make a difference is that
> >the "current" in my tank is rather brisk. The fish don't ever seem to
>get
> >a
> >chance to rest due to the constant swimming they are doing against the
> >current. Could this be a problem???
> >
> >I've looked in the books that I have and can't find anything convincing.
> >
> >I have made a crude web page with pictures of a couple of the fish. You
> >can
> >find it at
> >http://www.mindspring.com/~mcconnellms/staff/dwilliams/fishpics.html
> >I would really appreciate it if some of you could take a look and tell me
> >what you think.
> >
> >Thanks!
> >
> >
> >
> >Devon Williams
> >Beer Belly Brothers Brewing
> >Watkinsville, GA
> >
> > ooooo
> > |..oo=|
> > |...o |
> > |...| |
> > |...|=|
> > |___|
> >
> >_
> >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>_
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
>
>
_
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
| Message 17
Subject: Re: hurtin' fish
From: Mark_Brotman 'at' kinetico.com
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 14:11:52 -0400
Chlorine is destroyed with heat and light; alas, chloramine has to be
treated chemically or with carbon. At this point flushing is a good bet to
keep the nitrite from getting dangerous. Whatever you're using for solids
removal should be purged/rinsed/flushed frequently right now so that you
can get the pieces of dead tissue out of the system and get the ammonia
back under control. The morts are sneaky, aren't they?
Mark
"Devon Williams" 'at' townsqr.com on 04/03/2001 02:09:48
PM
Please respond to aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
Sent by: aquaponics-request 'at' townsqr.com
To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
cc:
Subject: Re: hurtin' fish
The fish were not added to fresh tap water, the water had been
recirculating
through the system for some two+ weeks. I assumed that would dissipate the
chlorine/chloramine. Is this true? Any water I add has been sitting out
at
least 24 hours to do the same thing. This is how I handled things as a
"tropical fish parent"...
I wouldn't be surprised if it is from the dead tissue, as I have been
removing dead bodies on a pretty regular basis since I got the
fish...unfortunately I could tell that some of the bodies had been dead for
a while (a few somehow got "hidden" underneath my intake pump...yuck)
Any other way to decrease the ammonia? I will do a water transfer, but any
other suggestions otherwise???
Devon
>From: Mark_Brotman 'at' kinetico.com
>Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>Subject: Re: hurtin' fish
>Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 13:28:43 -0400
>
>
>Hmm, barely fed and the ammonia is that high already? Maybe it's coming
>from dead tissue then. If you've had lots of aquariums already then you
>probably are indeed "a good parent" already. A good un-iodized salt
>(NaCl) would be, e.g , kosher rock salt. (Epsom is a magnesium salt,
which
>may provide essential trace nutrients but you wouldn't want to dose the
>tank therapeutically with it.) I see that you do have plants in the
system
>already, so you probably shouldn't add NaCl salt at this point (it will
>dehydrate the plants). For future reference, a paper worth looking at
on
>the subject can be found at
>http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/aquanic/publicat/usda_rac/efs/srac/462fs.pdf
>
>If you're using tap water, the chlorine and/or chloramine is guaranteed to
>be there (by law) and will have to be removed, preferably prior to contact
>with the fish. The test for this is Total Chlorine, since that will pick
>up both chlorine and chloramine. LaMotte and Hach make kits, among
others;
>pool test strips won't do the trick. You can get a carbon cartridge
filter
>at the hardware store and install it on your tap water line to the tank--
>for your size system that would work fine. Another effective alternative
>is chemical treatment, e.g., the sodium thiosulfate and it's mixes. Just
>take care not to choose a mix that also locks up ammonia, or the biofilter
>bacteria won't have anything to work with. If your fish are for eating
>make sure that whatever you get is FDA approved.
>
>Mark
>
>
>
>
>
>"Devon Williams" 'at' townsqr.com on 04/03/2001 01:04:02
>PM
>
>Please respond to aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>
>Sent by: aquaponics-request 'at' townsqr.com
>
>
>To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>cc:
>Subject: Re: hurtin' fish
>
>
>Mark,
>
>I have barely fed them, so I don't think the feeding is the issue. When
>you
>say uniodized salts, do you mean something like epsom salts? How much
>would
>you suggest for a 125 gallon tank?
>
>My water source is your basic tap water from the city, not a well. Should
>I
>test for chloramine? what else might been in "your basic tap water"???
>
>This is super frustrating because I used to keep LOTS of tropical fish in
>aquariums (south american (oscars) and african cichlids (assorted)
mostly),
>and I feel as though I was a pretty good "parent".
>
>Thanks.
>
>Devon
>
>
> >From: Mark_Brotman 'at' kinetico.com
> >Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
> >To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
> >Subject: Re: hurtin' fish
> >Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 12:44:20 -0400
> >
> >
> >Devon,
> >Back off on your feed. Ammonia is really getting too high. After the
> >ammonia spike comes the nitrite spike, which can be even more harmful.
>If
> >you don't have plants associated with the fish water right now, put some
> >uniodized salt in with the fish to help them deal with their current
>stress
> >and the coming nitrite spike. If you just put them in on Friday and
>the
> >tails are rotting right now, then there was probably something that came
>in
> >with them like a fungus or bacteria that has begun to express itself
with
> >their current stress levels. Ideally, new fish should be quarantined
> >before putting into the system's growing tanks. New fish should always
>be
> >dipped in something before introduction as well, like a 1-3% salt bath
>for
> >as long as they can stand it. That usually takes care of the parasites
>and
> >many other "unwanteds." They can handle not being fed for a few days.
>You
> >may want to do a partial water exchange right now as well, e.g., about
>20%,
> >to help get them over this particular hump. By the way, what is your
>water
> >source (looking for other stressors like chloramine in municipal
>supplies)?
> >
> >Mark Brotman
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >"Devon Williams" 'at' townsqr.com on 04/03/2001
10:31:44
> >AM
> >
> >Please respond to aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
> >
> >Sent by: aquaponics-request 'at' townsqr.com
> >
> >
> >To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
> >cc:
> >Subject: hurtin' fish
> >
> >
> >Hi everybody.
> >
> >O.k., so I solved the problem with my "super-sucker" fish tank pump, and
> >now
> >I have another problem...
> >
> >When I went to check on my fish this morning, many of them (probably 30
>or
> >so) had really bad problems with their tail fins. Some of their tails
>were
> >almost non-existent...I checked the pH, and it was at about 7.4, the
> >ammonia
> >level was higher than when I first introduced the fish on Friday (when
>the
> >amonia was non-existent) at between 5 and 7 ppm...I didn't measure DO,
>but
> >the fish didn't seem to be presenting with any oxygen symptoms, such as
> >gasping for breath at the surface, etc.
> >
> >Another fish had a obvious wound on its side. This is the only specimen
> >that I noticed with this problem.
> >
> >One thing I noticed, but am not sure if it will make a difference is
that
> >the "current" in my tank is rather brisk. The fish don't ever seem to
>get
> >a
> >chance to rest due to the constant swimming they are doing against the
> >current. Could this be a problem???
> >
> >I've looked in the books that I have and can't find anything convincing.
> >
> >I have made a crude web page with pictures of a couple of the fish. You
> >can
> >find it at
> >http://www.mindspring.com/~mcconnellms/staff/dwilliams/fishpics.html
> >I would really appreciate it if some of you could take a look and tell
me
> >what you think.
> >
> >Thanks!
> >
> >
> >
> >Devon Williams
> >Beer Belly Brothers Brewing
> >Watkinsville, GA
> >
> > ooooo
> > |..oo=|
> > |...o |
> > |...| |
> > |...|=|
> > |___|
> >
> >_
> >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>_
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
>
>
_
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
| Message 18
Subject: RE: spinach anyone?
From: "Charlie Shultz"
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 18:21:02
Mikey-D, Ted, others....
Interesting to read about Malabar Spinach.
My experience was quite different though. Over the past three months I have
been testing the culture potential of 12 different varieties of veggies in
our floating raft aquaponic system. The very first failure was with Malabar
Spinach (local seeds and Park Seeds). While other crops such as cucumbers,
okra, pole beans and tomatoes were lushiously green and healthy, my malabar
spinach seedlings went completely YELLOW. They seemed to prefer conditions
other than our aquaponics setup. Maybe a lacking nutrient or two, but I
think the other plants would have shown nutrient deficiencies as well.
Perhaps the pH (7.2) was just too far out of range for that crop. Although
Paula seemed to have grown the Malabar just fine in her setup. Anyhow, this
new information has convinced me to try just one more time before I
completely write off Malabar. It is a great variety to include in a mix, or
here in the Carib to sell for local calaloo.
Many of you don't know, but I have the opportunity during the next two weeks
to travel to Jamaica on an extension visit. I will be assisting a local
tilapia farmer in improving his production and culture techniques. As a
bonus, the rural farm is located just 30 mins from our Dreadlock list member
(Mike B). We plan to visit plenty during my stay. So, Mike, if you don't
have already, I'll be bringing you a pack or two of St. Croix malabar seeds.
Try 'em and let us know how they do for you.
Charlie
UVI-St.Croix
_________
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| Message 19
Subject: Gold fish - Koi
From: "Chris Jeppesen"
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 13:58:41 -0700
Does anyone know a (cheap) source for gold fish or koi.
Thanks
Chris Jeppesen
------------------------------------------------------------
http://37.com/Go/Horoscopes <--- Your daily Horoscope !
| Message 20
Subject: Re : Hurting Fish
From: laberge 'at' cil.qc.ca (LABERGE MARC)
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 19:06:56 -0400
Devon,
Judging by your pictures you seem to have 2 diseases. I am no expert with
tilapia, but I do know a lot about trout, so I'll give you my 2 cents.
1. Ammonia will peak and damage the fishes gills, Stop feeding until
peak goes down. The system is trying to achieve bacterial equilibrium, this
could take a while.
2. Nitrite signs in trout are that the fish gather at the air stone
thinking there is a lack of oxygen, also fish blood is brownish.
3. I would bet you that your nitrate is not contributing to your problem.
4. Check your ultra violet lights , change bulbs. If you do not use U.V.
, well.....uh...
5. If these were trout I would give them a 3% salt bath for 4 minutes,
outside the system, ( don't be putting salt in your system if you have
plants. I learned the hard way last year )
6. With trout there are maximum water velocities to respect, based on the
fish size.
Marc Laberge
Mont Tremblant
Quebec , Canada
| Message 21
Subject: Re: Gold fish - Koi
From: fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber)
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 18:36:02 -0500 (CDT)
Chris most of the cheap gold fish come from Arkansas but if you are
close to Wisconsin you might make a deal with Steve Spring (his emails
Cc above)on the koi .He pond raises them and might have what you want
Steve I have some cooler shipping boxes that you can have if you need
them.
Bruce
| Message 22
Subject: Re: hurtin' fish
From: fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber)
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 19:31:20 -0500 (CDT)
Devon Your fish look like they are suffering from the pump damage
that you reported which stressed them it would look like battel wounds
but your fish are to young to fight.Try using 1 teaspoon per gal. of
rock salt,water conditioning salt,canning salt or white side walk salt
NOT THE BLUE STUFF to knock down the bugs .And always keep some on hand
because its great for most bad bugs like Velvet and Ich etc.etc.
ALWAYS WHEN YOU GET FISH DIE OFFS DO MAJOR WATER CHANGES to dilute
any possible poisoning in the water and you will save yourself a lot of
greaf
Bruce
| Message 23
Subject: Re: Firewalls/Virus'
From: fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber)
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 19:46:11 -0500 (CDT)
Plant right away you need the lettuce to act as a nutrient sink to lock
up the fish waist or the fish will stunt
Bruce
| Message 24
Subject: Re: hurtin' fish
From: Mike Davey
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 20:56:59 -0500
Well since no one else brought this up I guess I will. If you're not
feeding them much it maybe inflicted by the other fish. If the fry
vary in size by much and there not being feed much they can be very
aggressive at this age. They also may not have eaten for 2 or 3 days
before they were shipped to you.
Also in a big tank (for the number of fish, I'm not sure of the
number and tank size) with a big pump, much of the food is lost in
minutes into the beds. From the pictures it looks like the fish are
about 2". We would feed them 4 times a day at that stage.
With the ammonia levels as high as they are it may not be the
problem. Watch them closely for 1/2 hour or so and see what they are
up to. I have seen a group of 1-1/2" fry kill and consume a 1" fry in
no time when hungry.
Just a different thought.
Mike
>Hi everybody.
>
>O.k., so I solved the problem with my "super-sucker" fish tank pump,
>and now I have another problem...
>
>When I went to check on my fish this morning, many of them (probably
>30 or so) had really bad problems with their tail fins. Some of
>their tails were almost non-existent...I checked the pH, and it was
>at about 7.4, the ammonia level was higher than when I first
>introduced the fish on Friday (when the amonia was non-existent) at
>between 5 and 7 ppm...I didn't measure DO, but the fish didn't seem
>to be presenting with any oxygen symptoms, such as gasping for
>breath at the surface, etc.
>
>Another fish had a obvious wound on its side. This is the only
>specimen that I noticed with this problem.
>
>One thing I noticed, but am not sure if it will make a difference is
>that the "current" in my tank is rather brisk. The fish don't ever
>seem to get a chance to rest due to the constant swimming they are
>doing against the current. Could this be a problem???
| Message 25
Subject: Re : Hurting Fish [Long]
From: Michael Grey
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 20:20:14 -0700
Devon,
As others have already mentioned, it appears that the root cause of your
problem is excess ammonia, especially un-ionized ammonia. Un-ionized
ammonia is particularly problematic because it can readily diffuse across
gill membranes due to its lipid solubility and lack of charge. Conversely,
the ionized form cannot diffuse as readily because, as a charged ion, it
does not easily pass through the charged-lined micropores of the
hydrophobic gill membrane.
With respect to water quality and nitrogenous waste products, un-ionized
ammonia levels are of most concern in your system, followed to a much
lesser degree by ionized ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. Both ionized and
un-ionized ammonia can occur together, but the ratio between them is
dependent on temperature, pH, DO, carbon dioxide concentration,
biocarbonate alkalinity, and salinity. Un-ionizaed ammonia increases
relative to ionized ammonia with increasing temperature and pH.
Knowing the system pH and temperature, the mole fraction of ammonia in the
un-ionized form can be calculated using the following relationship:
NH(subscript)3-N = 1/(1+10(superscript)(10.068-0.033T-pH))
For example: fish tank water temperature=25 degrees C, pH=7.5, salinity =0,
TAN=,65 mg/L
Solution: mole fraction of un-ionized ammonia = 0.0177. The concentration
of un-ionized ammonia = NH(subscript)3-N = (0.018)(0.65) = 0.011 mg/L
For your case, you reported TAN of 7 mg/L at pH 7.5. Assuming 25 degrees C
water temperature you are experiencing a 0.13 mg/L un-ionized ammonia
level. Your levels are certainly at a point where you should be concerned.
For comparison purposes, during 72-hour LC50 tests with adult Tilapia,
complete mortalities occurred at concentrations above 2.5 mg/L un-ionized
ammonia (Redner and Stickney, 1979) for adult fish. 96-Hr LC50 tests for
Tilapia fingerlings occurred at .3 mg/L (Ruffier et. al., 1981).
Nitrate levels are normally not a problem unless at very high levels. The
addition of NaCl will help mitigate any problems with nitrite
(methemoglobinemia [brown-blood]) and it certainly will do no harm to add
some to your system, but your main concern is to reduce un-ionized ammonia
levels immediately, and the addition of salt will have very little effect
in solving that problem and could adversely impact your plants.
I speculate that your ammonia problem is probably due to a bio-filter which
has had insufficient time to acclimate after the introduction of your fish.
Like a house-of-cards, once stress is introduced into the system by one
factor, all the other problems will be exacerbated. Until a biofilter comes
on-line you really do not have any choice but to do water exchanges to
maintain water quality.
Some comments on biofilter acclimation;
Its always a good idea to try to acclimate your bio-filter prior to the
addition of you fish. Given sufficient time, the gradual addition of fish
to a system can allow for proper acclimation without detrimental water-quality.
Some studies have been conducted to reduce acclimation times prior to the
introduction of fish into the system;
The simultaneous addition of inorganic ammonia and nitrite solutions holds
promise for reducing filter start-up times (Manthe and Malone 1987). In
normal filter start-up with organic compounds, the bacterial autotrophs
must compete for space on filter media surfaces with heterotrophs. By using
an inorganic ammonia solution Nitrosomonas become established well before
the addition of organic compounds and the subsequent development of
heterotrophs. By adding nitrite simultaneously with ammonia, Nitrobacter do
not have to wait the normal 10-14 day period before they have enough
nitrite for their development; they start up right away. The total result
is reduced filter start-up time and lower concentrations of ammonia and
nitrite.
Bower and Turner (1981 and 1984) studied acceleration of start-up in
seawater closed systems. In the 1981 study, commercial inoculants and the
addition of media from established filters were compared to control systems
for length of start-up. In the 1984 study, two commercial inoculants were
compared to control seawater systems. Bower and Turner (1981 and 1984)
concluded from their studies that seeding filters with filter media from
established filters could significantly reduce new system start-up times.
Addition of 10% of wet filter media from established seawater systems
reduced start-up time 81 % (4 days compared to 21 days) for ammonia removal
and 89% (4 days compared to 37 days) for nitrite removal compared to
controls. The use of dry filter media from established filters, seawater
from established filters or wet filter media from freshwater filter systems
produced considerably less reductions in filter start-up time than did the
addition of wet filter media from seawater systems. Additions of commercial
additives provided variable results, none of which were as rapid as the wet
filter media additions.
Seeding of freshwater systems was examined by Carmigiani and Bennett
(1977). The authors found that addition of approximately 3% of wet filter
media from an established filter decreased start-up time by 48% compared to
control filters.
At 07:06 PM 4/3/01 -0400, you wrote:
>Devon,
>Judging by your pictures you seem to have 2 diseases. I am no expert with
>tilapia, but I do know a lot about trout, so I'll give you my 2 cents.
>
>1. Ammonia will peak and damage the fishes gills, Stop feeding until
>peak goes down. The system is trying to achieve bacterial equilibrium, this
>could take a while.
>2. Nitrite signs in trout are that the fish gather at the air stone
>thinking there is a lack of oxygen, also fish blood is brownish.
>3. I would bet you that your nitrate is not contributing to your problem.
>4. Check your ultra violet lights , change bulbs. If you do not use U.V.
>, well.....uh...
>5. If these were trout I would give them a 3% salt bath for 4 minutes,
>outside the system, ( don't be putting salt in your system if you have
>plants. I learned the hard way last year )
>
>6. With trout there are maximum water velocities to respect, based on the
>fish size.
>
>Marc Laberge
>Mont Tremblant
>Quebec , Canada
| Message 26
Subject: Re: Gold fish - Koi
From: marc 'at' aculink.net
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 22:03:02 -0600
Just got a flyer in the Greenhouse Producer News yesterday
that has an ad for Koi (4" for $.95, 50 min). Haven't
checked koi prices lately so don't know how that compares
and we've never ordered from them before. They also list
pond plants and will do a weekly fax of specials.
Animals Etc., Inc.
551 Rt 130 S
Burlington, NJ 08016
1-800-631-PETS
1-800-650-PETS (Fax)
Marcy Nameth
Chris Jeppesen wrote:
>
> Does anyone know a (cheap) source for gold fish or koi.
>
|
