Aquaponics Digest - Sat 04/28/01
Message 1: Re: Mohapatra's Mini Greenhouses
from "Adriana Gutierrez"
Message 2: Re: Steve Springs System
from fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber)
Message 3: RE: Steve Springs System
from "Harmon, Todd S."
Message 4: Re: Steve Springs System
from fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber)
Message 5: RE: Mohapatra's Mini Greenhouses
from "Carlos Arano"
Message 6: More neat stuff on Stirling Engines
from "TGTX"
Message 7: Re: Unlinking Systems
from Raul Vergueiro Martins
Message 8: Re: Unlinking Systems
from Raul Vergueiro Martins
Message 9: Re: Unlinking Systems - Biodigestor construction
from Raul Vergueiro Martins
Message 10: Re: Digester effluent as fertilizer
from CAVM 'at' aol.com
Message 11: Re: Digester effluent as fertilizer
from Raul Vergueiro Martins
Message 12: Re: Unlinking Systems
from kris book
Message 13: RE: Digester effluent as fertilizer
from "billevans"
Message 14: Re: Unlinking Systems
from Raul Vergueiro Martins
Message 15: Re: Digester effluent as fertilizer
from Raul Vergueiro Martins
Message 16: Re: Unlinking Systems
from kris book
Message 17: Re: Unlinking Systems
from fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber)
Message 18: Re: Unlinking Systems
from kris book
Message 19: unsubscribe
from "Paul F. Beglane"
Message 20: I Just Had to Let You Know - Solar Panels
from "TGTX"
Message 21: Re: Unlinking Systems
from Raul Vergueiro Martins
Message 22: RE: Unlinking Systems
from "Taylors"
Message 23: Re: Unlinking Systems
from kris book
Message 24: Re: Unlinking Systems
from Raul Vergueiro Martins
Message 25: Re: Unlinking Systems
from kris book
| Message 1
Subject: Re: Mohapatra's Mini Greenhouses
From: "Adriana Gutierrez"
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 03:29:57 -0500
Carlos,
Can you give us a source for this book? I searched for it on Amazon
to no avail and a search for Science & Technology Application Systems,
Inc. came up dry also.
For those waiting for the translation of the information on the mini
greenhouses, there are actually more of a "low tunnel" than a
greenhouse per se. If you do a seach on "high tunnels" and "low
tunnels" you will come up with lots of interesting information on low
cost structures. The Mohapatra approach however, is incredibly
structurally sound by virtue of its design. Since moving to Alabama I
have become very respectful of wind and what it can do. Carlos has
the translated information now and should be posting it shortly.
Adriana
> Subhas Mohapatra is an indian scientist at North Carolina State
> University, Biological & Agricultural Engineering Dept.. He wrote a
book
> "Affordable Greenhouse Technology (A do it yourself manual)"
published by
> Science & Technology Application Systems, Inc. In it he explain
several very
> interesting devices, most of them of very low cost. I tell to all of
you:
> for me this book is a fountain of new ideas for people without money
to
> spend.
| Message 2
Subject: Re: Steve Springs System
From: fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 09:11:08 -0500 (CDT)
Hi every one I just got back on to the Orachel net and had to wade
through 97 aquaponic messages .
Last sunday I visited Steve Spring and his system and I have to tell
you that its nice to meet other Aquaponicers Steve and his wife are
great folks .
You know how he has been getting discouraged in his posts lately
because of slow fish growth so let me tell you what I observed while
there and we will see if you come to the same conclusions
The system consists of 2 huge blue poly tanks with a square clarifier
staged in between and water is piped to the grow gravel beds with at
least 4 beds in operation with fluorescent lighting down to the
plantings all most touching the plants.
a few kill sized Tilapia at the top dyeing from white
fungal(fighting) wounds but be sides that every thing was as it should
be.
Clearly I was not seeing something wrong with the system. Water temps
and clarity looked acceptable but I would prefer to see a lot more sun
light in to a grow area and this one is in an enclosed garage which will
cost more in lighting.
Steve just made a very radical 80% water change with colder water a
few days before which unknown to him would cause cold shock (and
spawning) if the water was not cold enough to kill the fish but since
these were highbreed fish spawning should not be a problem right?? I
asked Steve for some live fish to bring home to play with and in the
second net scoop came up with 9 fish of various sizes groups 3 close to
one lb., 6. 8month old 6 inch fish and 1 at 2inch size all of the
females had hollow bellies from incubation and one 6 incher was holding
eggs when put in my tank. and now 4 are holding eggs one large one that
i thought to be a male is in fact a female with a mouth full of eggs
So it seems obvious to me that Steves stunting problem is in fact a
breeding constantly problem and that hes not doing any thing wrong to
stunt the fish but that he has a mixed age groups in the same tank
giving the impression of stunting correct? And the fish dieing at the
top were from fighting over bed space to spawn in.
OK now what would you tell him to do to stop the unwanted spawning?
Bruce
| Message 3
Subject: RE: Steve Springs System
From: "Harmon, Todd S."
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 10:30:19 -0400
We raise tilapia at fairly high densities (0.5 lb/gal)and have little
trouble with breeding such as you mentioned. I would try raising them at a
higher density(that is if the system can maintain good water quality). The
higher density disrupts breeding activity and also doesn't let any one fish
set up a territory--which may help with the lesions that some of the fish
have developed.
Good Luck
Todd
-----Original Message-----
From: fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net [mailto:fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net]
Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2001 10:11 AM
To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com; careplus 'at' execpc.com
Subject: Re: Steve Springs System
Hi every one I just got back on to the Orachel net and had to wade
through 97 aquaponic messages .
Last sunday I visited Steve Spring and his system and I have to tell
you that its nice to meet other Aquaponicers Steve and his wife are
great folks .
You know how he has been getting discouraged in his posts lately
because of slow fish growth so let me tell you what I observed while
there and we will see if you come to the same conclusions
The system consists of 2 huge blue poly tanks with a square clarifier
staged in between and water is piped to the grow gravel beds with at
least 4 beds in operation with fluorescent lighting down to the
plantings all most touching the plants.
a few kill sized Tilapia at the top dyeing from white
fungal(fighting) wounds but be sides that every thing was as it should
be.
Clearly I was not seeing something wrong with the system. Water temps
and clarity looked acceptable but I would prefer to see a lot more sun
light in to a grow area and this one is in an enclosed garage which will
cost more in lighting.
Steve just made a very radical 80% water change with colder water a
few days before which unknown to him would cause cold shock (and
spawning) if the water was not cold enough to kill the fish but since
these were highbreed fish spawning should not be a problem right?? I
asked Steve for some live fish to bring home to play with and in the
second net scoop came up with 9 fish of various sizes groups 3 close to
one lb., 6. 8month old 6 inch fish and 1 at 2inch size all of the
females had hollow bellies from incubation and one 6 incher was holding
eggs when put in my tank. and now 4 are holding eggs one large one that
i thought to be a male is in fact a female with a mouth full of eggs
So it seems obvious to me that Steves stunting problem is in fact a
breeding constantly problem and that hes not doing any thing wrong to
stunt the fish but that he has a mixed age groups in the same tank
giving the impression of stunting correct? And the fish dieing at the
top were from fighting over bed space to spawn in.
OK now what would you tell him to do to stop the unwanted spawning?
Bruce
| Message 4
Subject: Re: Steve Springs System
From: fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 10:01:27 -0500 (CDT)
Steve I don't think that you need to ad the sand filter to your system
because of the fish that you gave me I can see that you have a over
population of young competing for resources with your original grow out
group.
3 of the fish that you gave me are from your originals the rest are
their young!!
This means that you have a 75% population of younger fish in the tank
and to be cost effective THE BREEDING MUST STOP
I know of 3 ways that will work for you
1) Tilapia spawn on the bottom of the tank only so you can cage them off
of the bottom in net cages
2) You can line the tank bottom with that egg crate used in lighting
fixtures that I was telling you about on sunday so they cant get to the
bottom to spawn.Making the entire tank into a net cage so to speak.
3) Introduce a predator specie to the tanks to wipe out any fry that do
make it to free swimming stage . I use bullheads because they are
hardy,dont get to large to eat my cash crop and they work at night when
the fry are on the bottom insuring a compleat wipe out but you could add
some Perch or Crapie to the mix to help them along.Yes I know the perch
are 2 year fish but keep in mind that they are your fixers and not your
cash crop .
Steve let me know if you need help on the change over I would like to
help
Bruce
| Message 5
Subject: RE: Mohapatra's Mini Greenhouses
From: "Carlos Arano"
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 07:53:42 -0300
Adriana:
The book was published by
STAS
322 N. Mason St.
Apex, NC 27502
or
1413 Boxwood Lane
Apex, NC 27502
Besides, you can contact directly with Mohapatra at
Biological & Agricultural Engineering Department
North Carolina State University
Raleigh, NC 27695-7625
or at
mohapatr 'at' unity.ncsu.edu
It is a pity, but I have not his phone number. You can search it at the
yellow pages.
Yes, you are right. I was not thinking in your southern winds there.
However, in some place in his book, S.M. is talking on the high resistance
of his MGH to winds. Remember, he is at Raleigh, NC , where winds are also
strong during windy season.
Of course, I have not that problem here ("yet ?"). Hurricanes are not
common and tornadoes are less common. But, if they came, my quonset GH will
not resist either.
A year ago I builded a modified 6 m long by 90 cm wide MGH on a table at
80 cm high. Now I'm using it for propagation in styrofoam cups ( by wick
method ). Its worked very well. But, I'm agree with you. Something good for
somebody, could be not good for somebody else under other circumstances.
Regards,
Carlos
----- Original Message -----
From: Adriana Gutierrez
To:
Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2001 5:29 AM
Subject: Re: Mohapatra's Mini Greenhouses
> Carlos,
> Can you give us a source for this book? I searched for it on Amazon
> to no avail and a search for Science & Technology Application Systems,
> Inc. came up dry also.
>
> For those waiting for the translation of the information on the mini
> greenhouses, there are actually more of a "low tunnel" than a
> greenhouse per se. If you do a seach on "high tunnels" and "low
> tunnels" you will come up with lots of interesting information on low
> cost structures. The Mohapatra approach however, is incredibly
> structurally sound by virtue of its design. Since moving to Alabama I
> have become very respectful of wind and what it can do. Carlos has
> the translated information now and should be posting it shortly.
>
> Adriana
>
> > Subhas Mohapatra is an indian scientist at North Carolina State
> > University, Biological & Agricultural Engineering Dept.. He wrote a
> book
> > "Affordable Greenhouse Technology (A do it yourself manual)"
> published by
> > Science & Technology Application Systems, Inc. In it he explain
> several very
> > interesting devices, most of them of very low cost. I tell to all of
> you:
> > for me this book is a fountain of new ideas for people without money
> to
> > spend.
>
>
| Message 6
Subject: More neat stuff on Stirling Engines
From: "TGTX"
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 12:04:06 -0500
This just sent to me on Stirling Engines.
Why would we care?
Well, solar energy applications for one, to power pumps and fans.
Heating and cooling aquaculture/greenhouse/produce refrigeration systems for
another.
You mechanical gurus should lecture this rusty lug nut on how he should go
about doing a homestead Stirling Engine thing for his nuclear family unit
;-).
Tedzo.
> http://www.airsport-corp.com/tbo.html
>
> It's called the Stirling cycle engine, and it has been around since the
> year 1816. Rather than suck- squish-pop-ptui, the Stirling cycle
> consists of heat-cool. That's it. It's a sealed system, similar to a
> refrigerator in the sense that the same working fluid goes round and
> round without being consumed.
>
> Stirlings are external combustion engines, and can burn whatever fuel is
> available. That takes care of requirement number one. Steady continuous
> combustion doesn't make any appreciable noise, that satisfies
> requirement number two.
>
> In 180 degrees rotation of a four cylinder Lyc or Continental, torque
> varies from a negative 100% to a positive 350%! The extreme torque
> reversals place severe constraints on propeller design. On the other
> hand, the same size four cylinder Stirling has torque that varies
> smoothly between 95% and 105%. No torque reversals, no need for a prop
> that must also serve as a flywheel, and silky idling at very slow
> speeds. Smooth power can save weight in engine mounts and isolators,
> too.
>
> Heat and cool. Heat and cool. The same chunk of gas is alternately
> heated and cooled. Heating a trapped body of gas raises it's pressure,
> and the pressure pushes a piston which does work. Then the gas is
> cooled, and the piston returns. The Stirling cycle.
>
> ...Energy (heat) is input at high temperature, the heat "quality" is
> converted to shaft horsepower, and the energy is rejected at a lower
> temperature. The bigger the temperature spread, the more output.
>
> There are Stirling-powered submarines, major automakers all over the
> world have designed and operated Stirlings, and RC models have flown
> under Stirling power. NASA has displayed their Stirling-powered blue
> Dodge pickup truck at Oshkosh a number of times. You may have seen it
> carrying pilots up and down the flightline during the afternoon airshow.
>
> My favorite Stirling quote is found in Joe Walker's book Stirling
> Engines, where he is telling about witnessing tests of an 800 HP General
> Motors Electromotive Division engine at La Grange, IL in 1967. "It was
> said at the time that the engine could be reversed in less than a
> revolution (but only when the stress office engineers were not
> present!)."
>
> One of the more spectacular (and least successful) Stirling engines was
> installed in the 2200 ton ship Ericsson in 1853. It had four cylinders,
> each with a diameter of 14 feet and stroke of six feet, direct-coupled
> to a 32 foot paddle wheel.
>
> Engine layout was such that the pressure was applied to the bottom side
> of the pistons, and the tops were exposed. During a demonstration trip,
> reporters were invited to step onto the pistons and ride up and down.
>
> So if Stirlings are so good, why don't we have them already? Good
> question, with many answers. For one thing, we do have them already. One
> of the interesting characteristics is the bilateral nature of the
> Stirling.
>
> If you input temperatures, the engine puts out shaft horsepower. But if
> you input horsepower, the engine outputs temperature difference. (Can
> you imagine producing gasoline that way?) Stirlings are uniquely suited
> to producing very cold temperatures, and are used to make liquid
> nitrogen, oxygen, etc. Some of those Stirlings are as big as a bus.
>
> At the other extreme, tiny Stirlings are used in satellites to cool the
> image sensors. The next time you look at the weather satellite pictures,
> remember that you have a Stirling to thank.
>
> Modern Stirlings are pressurized, sealed systems. Usually the working
> gas is helium or hydrogen because the lightest molecules need the least
> heat energy for a given change in temperature. (This is exactly the
> opposite of refrigeration or air conditioning, where the object is to
> move as much heat as possible and a heavy molecule such as Freon is
> needed.)
>
> Pressurization is used to increase the specific power of the engine. If
> the absolute temperature of a gas at ambient pressure (say 15 psi) is
> doubled, the pressure goes to 30, for a net "push on the piston" of 15
> psi. But if the engine is pressurized, say, to 300 psi, then the same
> temperature difference raises the pressure to 600 psi, for a delta of
> 300 psi on the piston. For the same displacement, this amount of
> pressurization nets 20 times as much power. It's sort of like
> turbocharging to 600 inches of manifold pressure!
>
> Likewise, if the absolute temperature ratio is 3:1, then the pressure
> ratio is 3:1 and more crankshaft power is produced. So it's important to
> operate the burner at as high a temperature as possible, and keep the
> cool end as cold as possible. More temperature spread, more output.
> ------------------------
> a good diagram showing the Stirling schematic;
>
> http://jenny.mes.titech.ac.jp/jshinozu/Engine/engine.html
>
> Stirling Engine theoretically has the same cycle as the "Carnot's
> cycle". Striling Engine is very clean and economical engine. This engine
> is very curious mecanism, because this engine needs only the temperature
> variation.
>
> When the air temperatue is forced to raise, the air pressure shall be
> raised. While the air is cooled, the air pressure shall be decompressed.
> In order to separate these high temperature portion and low temperature
> portion, this engine has the displacer. The optimum size of displacer
> diameter is 98% of its cylinder diameter. In short, there is a optimum
> clearance between the displacer and its cylinder.
>
> This is our Stirling Engine Model. This machine works well under the
> condition that the temperature difference is around over 500 centigrade.
> The heat source is electric heater. When the heater temperature is
> about 600 centigrade, the fly wheel revolutes about 1000 rpm. In this
> case, the temperature of cooling portion is about 100 centigrade.
>
> (100 C = 212 F, 600 C = 1,112 F, 800 C = 1472 F - Resistive electric
> heater easily produce 1000-2000 Watts)
> ------------------------
> The thermoacoustic acoustic heat engine;
>
> http://www.lanl.gov/mst/engine/
>
> Our new heat engine efficiently converts heat to intense acoustic power
> in a simple device that comprises only pipes and conventional heat
> exchangers and has no moving parts.
>
> The acoustic power can be used directly in acoustic refrigerators or
> pulse-tube refrigerators to provide heat-driven refrigeration with no
> moving parts, or it can be used to generate electricity via a linear
> alternator or other electroacoustic power transducer.
>
> Already the engine's 30% efficiency and high reliability may make
> medium-sized natural-gas liquefaction plants (with a capacity of up to a
> million gallons per day) and residential cogeneration economically
> feasible.
| Message 7
Subject: Re: Unlinking Systems
From: Raul Vergueiro Martins
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 14:43:43 +0100
Hello Paula:
Excuse me for my delay in answering your post. Sometimes I must wait the weekend to do
so with some calm.
S & S Aqua Farm wrote:
> At 11:42 PM 04/22/2001 +0100, Raul wrote in part:
>
> >From S&S Aqua Farm:
> >> I can't say that we claim to "maintain an exquisite balance" in our system,
> >> but we've found that most problems can be attributed to oversupply or
> >> undersupply -- overfeeding at start-up, undersizing of the grow beds, or
> >> less plant growth than is necessary for the size of fish stocked. Most of
> >> these problems can be corrected by cycling the system with reduced input for
> >> a few days, allowing the system to balance itself. And actually I can't say
> >> that we can take credit for that -- allowing the natural systems time to
> >> recover is the most intervention that's usually necessary. It's when we
> >> overengineer (humans love to do this!) that we've seen problems.
>
> Raul:
> >I think that to accomplish this, we need a lot of skill from the system's
> operator.
> >For a high scale commercial unit, this would be a problem.
>
> I still feel that it's not a matter of a "lot of skill" as much as
> evaluation and common sense. In a "high scale commercial unit", I think
> that a certain degree of skill or experience would be a requirement before
> committing the amount of money that would entail.
I think that evaluation and common sense, as well as a lot of skill, are some of the most
important items when somebody sets any system.
But if we look to high commercial units, you will have contracted operators that will not
look to the system as if it was of their own. I'm sure that those people not allways
will evaluate things nor they will use the common sense.
> >Protection in case of a system crash
>
> I wrote:
> >> As you know, the process in a gravel-based system is constantly composting.
> >> The fish effluent pumped into the beds today is not what the plants are
> >> uptaking, so even though the input side is "immediately affected", the
> >> nutrient supply is not. Unless you have a long shut-down time of fresh
> >> effluent being input, or if you completely stop watering the grow beds, the
> >> one need not necessarily cause a system "crash".
>
> Raul:
> >In the case of some fish diseases, for insurance, you must shut down the
> water flow to the
> >plants, as you are undesr the risk of contaminating plants with microbes
> that can be
> >harmfull to humans.
> >But, if you have an anaerobic biodigester, these microbes are destroyed during
> >biodigestion and in a final sanitizing of the biofertilizer ( a normal
> procedure), and you
> >can continue feeding your plants, with a paralell feeding system.
>
> But fish diseases, in most cases, are not developed in mid-stream, or at
> least I believe that to be the case. Normal quarantine of new fish stocks,
> buying from reputable suppliers, and maintaining water quality should
> prevent this situation in the first place.
Even so, we can't be sure that disease problem will not happen. You must be prepared for
them
> We've certainly raised enough
> ornamentals over the years to be aware of the problems that result from fish
> diseases that require treatment that would harm the total system if it were
> still interconnected, but we have not had any occurrences of these types of
> problems in our aquaponics systems....only in our previous aquarium set-ups.
> May I ask what specific diseases you refer to?
You are a lucky lady, and I wish you continue being so. I should give you the examples
of all the diseases where you must use anthibiotics.
> >
> >> It is also possible for the plant side of an operation to
> >> >crash - aphids or pest problems or a freeze or pump breakdown
> >> >sometimes require a premature clearing of growing beds to eliminate a
> >> >problem. An unscheduled reduction in plant volume will affect the
> >> >filtration of the fish effluent and could affect the water quality and
> >> >health of the fish.
> >>
> >> This can be the case, and would be most likely in a mono-crop situation. If
> >> you have mixed crops (which we usually encourage), most insect problems
> >> would not affect all of the multiple beds attached to one tank.
> >
> >But if you have a fish disease in a tank, all the beds attached to that
> tank will be
> >affected
> >
> >> Again, I'd like to suggest that the balance does not have to be as "fine" as
> >> you might think. We've found the systems to be very forgiving in many cases
> >> where our planning was not perfect.
> >
> >I agree with you here, but is this possible in large commercial units?
>
> I guess I don't know precisely what you mean by large commercial units --
> could you elaborate?
For instance, a system producing about 100,000 heads of lettuce per month, ans some
hundered pound of fisk per month too.
> I wrote:
> >> We encourage fish production, as you know, as a secondary product, with the
> >> primary being the plants/produce grown on the other side, and don't ever
> >> work to clear a system of fish at any time. If we do a mass harvest from a
> >> specific tank, we generally will have enough fish in another to split and
> >> still supply both systems.
>
> Raul wrote:
> >Here is a point that many newbies don't understand.
> >We use fishes to produce our organic nutrient solution.
> >There are situations where we must be clear.
> >The first is the production of hydroponic "organic" plants, using fishes as
> the producers
> >of the "organic" nutrient solution. You sell plants, not fishes. Fishes
> are no more
> >than a byproduct.
> >The second, is the production of fishes, using plants to clean the water
> they live in.
> >You sell fishes, not plants.
> >And here, plants are no more than a byproduct.
> >One thing I have seen in all Aquaponic systems. Your profits with plants
> selling are
> >much larger than the profits with fish selling.
>
> I understand that you see the biodigester addition as a way to improve
> profits in aquaponics.
In your system, yes.
> What we have always promoted is production using the
> simplest, least costly methods. I suppose I am just finding it hard to
> accept the inclusion of additional equipment, labor, monitoring, etc. as
> being necessary.
I think that a small biodigester as the one whose drawings I'm finishing, will cost about
US$ 200.00 (this is not a final number), and it wil take from you no more than half an
hour per day to manage it. You just charge the manure at one side, and get the
biofertilizer at the other side.
> >No, Paula. You don't need an experience in biodigesting systems.
> >Biodigestion really incorporates a delicate sequence of activities, but
> these activities
> >are those normally encoutered in nature. We only put some order in those
> activities, for
> >them to be under our control. And we make this by means of a biodigester.
> >Once you have a biodigester setted, your only work you will have is to feed
> it, and
> >operate it closing or shutting two or three valves. It takes no more than
> half an hour a
> >day to do this.
> >
> >Raul Vergueiro Martins
> >rvm 'at' sti.com.br
>
> Thank you, Raul for your input.
It is me, Paula, who must thank you for the opportunities you give to us in your
wonderfull List.
Best regards
Raul Vergueiro Martins
rvm 'at' sti.com.br
| Message 8
Subject: Re: Unlinking Systems
From: Raul Vergueiro Martins
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 14:43:58 +0100
Hello Paula:
Excuse me for the delay in answering you.
S & S Aqua Farm wrote:
> At 11:05 PM 04/22/2001 +0100, Raul wrote (in part):
>
> >You are right till a certain point. Nitrogen can react very rapidly and
> can be
> >transformed in compounds that dissolve and ionize in water, so being
> immediatly used by
> >plants.
> >But the same doesn't happen with all the Calcium and with all the Magnesium.
> >It is a common problem the Magnesium and Calcium deficiencies in plants
> (specially with
> >fruit plants like tomatoes), when using fish efluents.
> >If you analyse the solution, these elements are there in good quantities,
> but in forms
> >that are not taken by plants.
> >If you make a good analisys, you will generally find these elements as
> organo-mineral
> >compounds, that are dissolved but not ionized. They are in large chain
> organic and
> >organo-mineral compounds, that plants can't absorb.
> >That is why in Aquaponic systems you produce very well the greens, but
> fruits become a
> >problem.
> >I don't mean that you can't produce tomatoes, peppers or similar ones.
> But for a large
> >commercial production that would be a problem.
> >Just for curiosity, Jim Rackocy in his system, corrects the pH of the water
> with Calcium
> >Hydroxide.
>
> Raul, I'm not disagreeing with your statements -- I'd be overstepping my
> knowledge to say that I can completely follow all the discussions. I'm
> trying to understand what you're saying, but let me just ask -- if your
> particular water and/or gravel has the components to correct the pH, does
> that make a difference?
If you have those components you will have not to make the corrections.
And here is a point that I don't understand quite well in your system. Tilapia do well
under a pH around 7.0, and plants do better (generally speaking) in pH ranging around 6.5
to 6.8.
How do you manage this?
>
>
> Raul said:
> I agree with all you said here, but if you can avoid the discharge of the
> solid part of
> >the efluent into the gravel beds, it would provide you a cleaner bed. You
> can even avoid
> >the use of earthworms in the system to increase its efficiency.
> >You can concentrate the solids in a closed anaerobic biodigester, and then
> discharge the
> >biofertilizer in the system.
> >I am not saying that the aerobic biodigestion would not do the job, because
> it will do it.
> >
> >But the anaerobic biodigestion can be carried in a more compact system,
> more rapidly, with
> >a larger efficiency, and wit les losses of nutrients, specially those
> capable of forming
> >volatile compounds like Nitrogen is.
> >And if you consider a large commercial system, you can take advantage of
> that small
> >byproduct called biogas.
> >Biogas means methane and CO2, and this means energy and carbonic fertilization.
>
> I understand the benefits (energy production-wise) of biogas production, and
> I can see that if you have hydroponic equipment that does not allow for most
> any solids to pass without clogging, this would be of benefit. But other
> than the energy by-product, is there a need to add another process to
> monitor into a system that basically works by itself (I mean the gravel
> growbed biofilter and the natural actions that take place there)?
We say here that a team wich is winning the games should not be changed. But that
doesn't mean that we should stop to look for new players to improove the team.
So happens with your system. I should not change it. But I would look and study some
other features that can improve it as to make it more easy to handle.
> I admit I've not had time to read your and Melvin Landers article in the new
> Growing Edge, so perhaps I should study it more closely before asking.
Please read it. It is very interesting, and it opens many windows.
Raul Vergueiro Martins
rvm 'at' sti.com.br
| Message 9
Subject: Re: Unlinking Systems - Biodigestor construction
From: Raul Vergueiro Martins
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 14:44:15 +0100
Hello Juan:
Excuse the delay in answerin to you, but I had to wait for the weekend to make it calmly.
"Juan C. Bobeda" wrote:
> Hello Raul:
>
> I was wondering what happened to you during the seminar, it was too bad you didn't
> comment because I think your participation would have enriched the very interesting
> discussions, specially since several participants were experts in the field of anaerobic
> digestion.
Believe, I lost no one messange of the seminar. I had all them printed, and I collected
them in a book, as there are many informations on them.
I just didn't want to participate. I preferred to be a spectator since the begining.
> The reason I sent the addresses for the biodigester manuals was simply to demystify the
> subject of anaerobic digestion, and at the same time show that it can be done at a low
> cost.
I agree with you. A simple biodigester can be made at low cost
> I agree that no anaerobic biodigester will completely digest normal agricultural waste
> biomass. As you know, the most we can expect with a anaerobic digester is around an 85%
> removal of BOD5. However, we can easily mineralize most of the remaining unmineralized
> biomass if we use an extended aeration tank. This aeration tank would only need a
> retention time of 6 to 24 hours, and since the volumes we are talking about are
> relatively small, the cost will also be acceptable.
This is what I try do show to those who look for a biodigester. For us to have a
complete biodigestion, we need some more steps in the process.
As my goal is the use of biofertilizer as the basis for the preparation o nutrient
solutions for hydroponics, those stages are needed.
In principle, when we speak about Organic Hydroponics, we can't add no more mineral
nutrients to our nutrient solution, and so, a complete mineralization of the biomass is
needed. We must avoid too any solids in the solution, as they can become a problem in
some of the hydroponic systems.
On the other side, if those solids are particles of organic matter, they continue
decomposing in the nutrient solution, and this is a great problem, because some bacteria
develop over the roots of the plants and inside some other parts of the hydroponic system,
killing the plants, and clogging minute orifices in emmiters, for instance.
> If you read Step 7 in Francisco Aguilar's manual, for a 10 meter long (33 feet)
> biodigester treating 18 kilograms (40 pounds) of cow dung per day, we only need to treat
> about 100 liters per day or some 27 gallons, so a 55 gallon plastic barrel will work OK.
> To this tank we would only need to add a small aeration device such as a small pump with
> a venturi to reasonably finish the process.
Im just finishing the drawings of a small biodigester that uses 200 liter plastic drums,
basically designed to treat the daily feces of 50 laying hens (about 15 or 18 Kg/day).
The resulting biofertilizer will basically be used to prepare nutrient solutions for
hydroponics. I can say that the final stage is an aeration one, and unless you make the
aeration during at least 24 hours, the process is not complete.
And the venturi doesn't work so well.
For this biodigester we will furnish the complete drawings and a small handbook for people
to set and use it.
This will be distributed to poor people around the world, and will be sold for those who
can pay for it.
You can contact Mr. Melvin Landers at agrimel 'at' yahoo.com to know about our project.
> I know you will tell me that you are using many more steps with your method and I won't
> argue if your system treats the agricultural biomass more completely, but please
> remember that we are talking about an aquaponic system that Adriana thought should be
> unlinked and I agree with her.
I agree with Adriana, a friend of mine, who helped me a lot in the translation of my site
in the Internet.
May be some people is not understanding what Adriana wants to say.
An Aquaponic system will never be completely unlinked, as the plants are basicaly used to
clean the waters from the nitrates formed. But we can improove the system, if we
separate the feces and treat them in a biodigester, and return the biofertilizer to the
system, or carry this biofertilizer to a parallel hydroponic system.
On the other hand, she is presenting a new system, the Geo-Hydroponic system, that uses
terrestrial animal feces (even human ones, with some retrictions).
In this system, the animal wastes are completely unlinked from the Hydroponic System.
In this case, the feces from fishes can be used in Geo-Hydroponics. and only the filtered
water will be used in the Aquaponic System.
Dr. James Rackocy uses only the filtered water in his system, and discards the feces for
other uses.
> All I am saying is that if before we send the fish tank effluent to the gravel beds we
> first treat the dilute fish waste with a low cost anaerobic digester such as an
> anaerobic filter, an Upflow Anaerobic Sludge Bed (USAB) digester or an Anaerobic Biofilm
> Fluidized Bed Reactor (ABFBR), and then we aerate the effluent 6 to 24 hours, we will
> obviously have a better mineralized effluent than if we simply send the fish waste to a
> gravel grow bed such as used in the S & S System. With this system we could also use
> other feed to increase the volume of nutrients for our plants when we harvest the fish
> or for any other reason.
That is the point. With a mechanical filter we will never get a water completelly exempt
of solid particles in suspension, and as those particles are mainly constituted of organic
matter, they will allways have a tendency to decompose aerobically or anaerobically.
This can be carried in the same biological filter mainly used for the nitrification
process, and, as the water has been previously filtered, the small residual particles will
have not a too bad effect in this filter.
In the S & S System, this filtration is carried in the growing beds and at the same time,
these beds act as the mechanical filter, and nitrifying filter.
If we consider that we will have many biodecompositions carried at the same time in the
growing beds, I believe that the beds can be more efficient in this process, and will
become cleaner, if we make a pre-filtration.
One of the great advantages of Paula's system, is the use of CO2 derived from the
biodecomposition, wich goes directly to the underside of the plant's leaves.
> If you visited the Ocean Arks page, you will see that they do exactly the same thing
> using plants to remove almost all nutrients from wastewater.
>
> As for the biogas, if you don't want to use it, simply burn it.
You are right here, to a certain extension.
But, depending of the size of the system, why should we discard so many energy just
burning it? And what about the effects of SH2 in the atmosphere?
> There is however a point where I don't agree with you and it is where you say: "To use
> the biofertilizer produced by one of these biodigesters in hydroponics, is not feasible,
> and will bring lots of problems for those who try to do that. I would never advise
> someone to do so. ... snip ... But to use it in hydroponics, it is a great adventure,
> that certainly will carry its user and others that talk with him, to a complete
> discredit in biodigestion technology. It would be a very bad propaganda, based in the
> poor knowledge of the actual technology of agricultural biodigestion."
>
> Although I must recognize that I haven't tried this yet, I do recall having read in
> Practical Hydroponics & Greenhouses some months ago about a hydroponic grower that
> simply put fish waste in a tightly closed tank and after a couple of months used this as
> his only nutrient in a gravel bed flood and drain system. If I remember correctly, he
> has been doing this for several years with excellent results.
And you can be sure it works. But it takes some months for the anaerobic decomposition
to take place.
I believe that those tanks must have some kind of vent, or some explosion will take place
because of the gas formation inside the tanks.
Biodigestion iis a natural process. It takes place in Nature since organic matter exists
in our planet.
What we make with biodigesters, is to use the natural processes controled in such a way as
to them to be of greater beneffit to us.
By using a biodigester that hydroponic grower would not have to wait some months to use
his fertilizer.
> Anyway, I am now in the process of designing and afterwards building a small anaerobic
> digester followed by extended aeration to obtain an organic nutrient solution for
> lettuce and tomato plants. The lettuce will be grown in 9 six meter long NFT channels
> and the tomatoes will be grown in Autopots. I will keep the list informed about my
> results and send photos and detailed information to anyone interested at no cost.
Be sure you will have good results. I have no doubts that you will have some problems in
the begining, but you will succeed.
Best regards,
Raul Vergueiro Martins
rvm 'at' sti.com.br
> Raul Vergueiro Martins wrote:
>
>> Hello Juan:
>>
>> I have recently participated of a e-seminar about these biodigesters, as you did too.
>> I made no comments during all the e-seminar, because, as I told to Jackie Foo by that
>> time, all I wanted was to know about the stage of development of agricultural
>> biodigestion
>> practice at this momment.
>> What I can say here, is that those biodigesters are not sufficient developed as to
>> give us
>> a complete biodigested biomass.
>> The principle goal of those biodigesters, as the major part of them around the world,
>> is
>> the production of biogas, and not for the production of a high quality biofertilizer
>> (in
>> terms of complete biodigestion).
>> To use the biofertilizer produced by one of these biodigesters in hydroponics, is not
>> feasible, and will bring lots of problems for those who try to do that.
>> I would never advise someone to do so.
>> As for the use of that biofertilizer in soil, it is a good practice, as the final
>> decomposition will be carried in soil.
>> Even for the use of the biogas from such a biodigester, it will be very dangerous, as
>> it
>> is stocked in a poliethilene film bag.
>> In one of the manuals furnished during the e-seminar, we can see a photo of large
>> sized
>> bags with biogas, placed in the ceiling of a laboratory.
>> I would never make that. Imagine the ceiling of a laboratory, completely covered
>> with
>> biogas (and this means methane) filled bags, with people working under them.
>> Where are the minimum concepts of safety?
>> If somebody wants to try the use of biofertilizer in soil, he can build such a
>> biodigester. But to use it in hydroponics, it is a great adventure, that certainly
>> will
>> carry its user and others that talk with him, to a complete discredit in biodigestion
>> technology. It would be a very bad propaganda, based in the poor knowledge of the
>> actual
>> technology of agricultural biodigestion.
>> I don't want to say here that the poliethilene biodigester doesn't work. It works,
>> and
>> very well, once you want small ammounts of biogas to be burned in a small single fired
>>
>> stove, and some incomplete digested biofertilizer.
>>
>> Raul Vergueiro Martins
>> rvm 'at' sti.com.br
>>
>
| Message 10
Subject: Re: Digester effluent as fertilizer
From: CAVM 'at' aol.com
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 13:46:34 EDT
In order for the effluent from a digester to meet the new USDA standards as a
fertlizer which can be applied on certified organic crops, a digester has to
reach 130 F for 3 days during the dwell time in the vessel. If the pathogen
kill after these 3 days is sufficient for organic farming, I would think it
was complete enough for hydroponics.
Not all anaerobic digesters are designed to meet this standard, however.
Plus there may be other issues besides pathogen destruction.
Neal Van Milligen
<<
Subject: Re: [POLY-DIG] INTRO: Jacky Foo (Sweden)
From: Raul Vergueiro Martins
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 10:59:24 +0100
Hi Kris:
May be you didn't understand my words, or may be my English is too bad (at
least I believe
it is), for you to understand what I told some days ago in the Aquaponics
List.
This gentleman has a name, and what this gentleman told, is that the
Poliethilene
Biodigester, is mainly being used to produce gas (or biogas).
The Poliethilene Biodigester produces Biogas and Biofertilizer.
This gentleman said too, that the Poliethilene Biodigester produces a
biofertilizer not
completely biodigested, and so with no good conditions to be used as a basis
to prepare an
"organic" nutrient solution to be used in all hydroponic systems. >>
| Message 11
Subject: Re: Digester effluent as fertilizer
From: Raul Vergueiro Martins
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 15:54:19 +0100
Hi Neal:
CAVM 'at' aol.com wrote:
> In order for the effluent from a digester to meet the new USDA standards as a
> fertlizer which can be applied on certified organic crops, a digester has to
> reach 130 F for 3 days during the dwell time in the vessel. If the pathogen
> kill after these 3 days is sufficient for organic farming, I would think it
> was complete enough for hydroponics.
There are other methods to sterilyse the biofertilizer, and we use them.
We avoid the use of a thermal system as for us not to destroy the soluble humus
components.
I don't know if the USDA standards says that the process must be thermic or not.
I don't know of any hydroponic system that uses thermal sterilization.
Even UV radiation and ozone are not recommended in hydroponic solutions.
> Not all anaerobic digesters are designed to meet this standard, however.
The anaerobic digestion by itself, promotes a large spectrum sterilization, but our
biodigesters are provided with an extra sterilization step.
Raul Vergueiro Martins]
rvm 'at' sti.com.br
> Plus there may be other issues besides pathogen destruction.
>
> Neal Van Milligen
>
> <<
> Subject: Re: [POLY-DIG] INTRO: Jacky Foo (Sweden)
> From: Raul Vergueiro Martins
> Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 10:59:24 +0100
>
> Hi Kris:
>
> May be you didn't understand my words, or may be my English is too bad (at
> least I believe
> it is), for you to understand what I told some days ago in the Aquaponics
> List.
> This gentleman has a name, and what this gentleman told, is that the
> Poliethilene
> Biodigester, is mainly being used to produce gas (or biogas).
> The Poliethilene Biodigester produces Biogas and Biofertilizer.
> This gentleman said too, that the Poliethilene Biodigester produces a
> biofertilizer not
> completely biodigested, and so with no good conditions to be used as a basis
> to prepare an
> "organic" nutrient solution to be used in all hydroponic systems. >>
| Message 12
Subject: Re: Unlinking Systems
From: kris book
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 13:04:07 -0600
Dear Raul,
I think that, what I didn't understand was the man, not the words. After
reading your kind and informative responses to my tactless question to
Jacky(on the bio-digester list), I find it necessary to add a personal
apology to the one that I gave to the IBS list for not taking a little
more time to formulate a question without brining an unknown third party
into the equation, especially when that third party had already chosen
not to speak to the rest of the list. To begin with I was a little
confused by your web site, which I read for the first time about a year
ago. I remembered that you had said that a commercial bio-digester needed
to be engineered by an expert and if you knew me better, you'd know that
my ears prick up like a pit bull when someone tells me that I can't do
something by myself. And if memory serves correctly, you later made
mention of your "hydor site" and said that digesters were explained at
your site. When I returned to your site it appeared to be the same thing
I had already read but, really didn't understand, so when I got to the
part about needing an expert I made a rash assumption about something
like, this guy must need to make money because he is only partly
explaining what going on. I am now forced by your kind actions and my own
code to say,"You are a great asset to mankind and you have my total
respect!"
Namaste,
kris book
krisbook 'at' juno.com
| Message 13
Subject: RE: Digester effluent as fertilizer
From: "billevans"
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 13:07:57 -0700
IMHO, the new standards will only bring down the quality of what can be
called "compost".
if that is along the same subject....Others more learned than I have
brought attention to the new "standard" for "compost" as being inadequate
for pathogen destruction.... as well as maturation.
billevans
....
..
In order for the effluent from a digester to meet the new USDA standards as
a
fertlizer which can be applied on certified organic crops, a digester has to
reach 130 F for 3 days
"organic" nutrient solution to be used in all hydroponic systems. >>
| Message 14
Subject: Re: Unlinking Systems
From: Raul Vergueiro Martins
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 17:50:27 +0100
Dear Kris:
kris book wrote:
> Dear Raul,
>
> I think that, what I didn't understand was the man, not the words. After
> reading your kind and informative responses to my tactless question to
> Jacky(on the bio-digester list), I find it necessary to add a personal
> apology
You must not apologise with me. Sometimes we say things in the wrong momments to the
wrong people.
May be this happened between us.
> to the one that I gave to the IBS list for not taking a little
> more time to formulate a question without brining an unknown third party
> into the equation, especially when that third party had already chosen
> not to speak to the rest of the list.
I chose to participate as a spectator in the e-seminar, because my goal was to know how
was the actual agricultural biodigestion technology around the world.
And I saw it didn't develop too much, as at the momment, agricultural biodigesters are
still seen as gas producers and not as fertilizer producers.
Fertilizers are the main product of agricultural biodigesters, and we should carry our
attention to its production and use.
We should change our way of thinking, when we speak about a biodigester.
A biodigester is an apparatus to produce fertilizers using manure as the prime matter, and
they also produce a combustible gas, called biogas, wich has a high percentage of methane.
At the momment we see the contrary, as people believe that an agricultural biodigester is
made to produce a combustible gas, and produces an efluent that "can be used as a
fertilizer".
> To begin with I was a little
> confused by your web site, which I read for the first time about a year
> ago. I remembered that you had said that a commercial bio-digester needed
> to be engineered by an expert and if you knew me better, you'd know that
> my ears prick up like a pit bull when someone tells me that I can't do
> something by myself.
Yes, my friend, you can build your biodigester with your hands, and be sure it will work.
But try to build it the most perfect you can, and for that, look for someone to help you.
> And if memory serves correctly, you later made
> mention of your "hydor site" and said that digesters were explained at
> your site. When I returned to your site it appeared to be the same thing
My site was made to show what hydroponics is, for those that don't know it, or want some
simple information about it, before entering the process.
I added to it some concepts about modern hydroponics, with respect to organic hydroponics,
and some information about humus, that product that many people speak about, but very few
know really what it is, or what it makes in soil.
That's why I made from Humus a personage telling something about itself, as a simple story
like those for children.
> I had already read but, really didn't understand, so when I got to the
> part about needing an expert I made a rash assumption about something
> like, this guy must need to make money because he is only partly
> explaining what going on. I am now forced by your kind actions and my own
> code to say,"You are a great asset to mankind and you have my total
> respect!"
My friend, when I made that site, my first intention was not to sell anything to anybody,
but to teach something
After the site was ready, many friends forced me to put in it a commercial part, mainly to
sell my books in Brazil.
Any commercial site designer will laugh if he sees my site. And note that the commercial
part is at the end of the site, and not in its begining or in its midle.
Really in the site I don't put all I know, nor the site was made for that.
I reserch hydroponics for more than 33 years, and I wrote tree large books about that.
And in the books there is no more than a half of what I know.
How could I put that in a site?
Yes, I sell my products, but not by means of the Internet. I have my accessory work in
hydroponic instalations and in biodigester designing.
It is understandable that many things are taken as part of my know-how, and must be used
exclusively for my work, but that doesn't mean that I don't help people who need me.
If you speak with Mr. Melvin Landers, you will know about the work we are developing.
And note, at our expenses.
I liked your explanation about the word Namaste and its meaning, and I will finish this
message with it, and asking God in my prayers for a rapid recovery of your wife.
Namaste
Raul Vergueiro Martins
rvm 'at' sti.com.br
| Message 15
Subject: Re: Digester effluent as fertilizer
From: Raul Vergueiro Martins
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 17:53:04 +0100
Hello Bill:
You told everything in few words.
Congratulations.
Raul Vergueiro Martins
rvm 'at' sti.com.br
billevans wrote:
> IMHO, the new standards will only bring down the quality of what can be
> called "compost".
> if that is along the same subject....Others more learned than I have
> brought attention to the new "standard" for "compost" as being inadequate
> for pathogen destruction.... as well as maturation.
>
> billevans
> ....
> ..
>
> In order for the effluent from a digester to meet the new USDA standards as
> a
> fertlizer which can be applied on certified organic crops, a digester has to
> reach 130 F for 3 days
> "organic" nutrient solution to be used in all hydroponic systems. >>
| Message 16
Subject: Re: Unlinking Systems
From: kris book
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 15:27:57 -0600
Dear Raul,
For my purposes, both are of equal importance. Now that there are
reliable electrical generators that run on straight biogas(Capstone model
330), greenhouse growers can choose to create any climate they choose and
maintain that climate 12 months a year. In fact,I believe it will be
possible to grow the giant fruits and vegetables, that grow naturally in
the Mantuska Valley, Alaska anywhere in the world. Growers will be able
to harvest up to six crops a year or even for instance. We could
conceivably plant and harvest a broccoli plant or whatever we choose,
every day of the year. Cheap fuel(biogas) will allow a farmer to create
any light intensity desired with the aid of gro-lights.
I've got to get back to the hospital but, I am pasting a couple of
paragraphs from an intro I sent an intentional community. Thank you for
taking time to clarify so much in so little time. One last thing, I've
been thinking that bio-fertilizer will allow aquaponic systems to grow
the heaviest feeding plants without any nutrient problems.
kris book
During the 1980's and early 90's my wife and I gardened year round at
about 6,000 ft. in Central Oregon. I designed and built a greenhouse out
of PVC pipe. In the winter we added gro-lights and CO2 injection. We
learned to start plants from cuttings. We also experimented with
different compost recipes, which led us to experimenting with organic
hydroponics (bioponic) growing. We attained a great deal of satisfaction
from the knowledge that we could feed ourselves fresh organic food every
day of the year under any climate conditions. In fact, we had some of our
best crops in January when the temperature never reached above 0 for 8 or
9 days in a row. I am sure that I can double the normal production of a
commercial greenhouse, and I speculate that I can probably triple and
maybe a little more than average production with my organic hydroponics
(bioponic) system and CO2 injection. Please let me know if ya'll have in
interest in communicating with us.
I'd also be interested in talking to anyone that you know that is
planning to build similar communities, preferably some place that has
four seasons. That way, I can resume my quest to eliminate world hunger.
I believe that since most of the world's population lives in urban areas
with short growing seasons, then that's where the food should be grown. I
see no reason to pay truck drivers and brokers to bring me food that is
picked too early because the food has to travel so far. My wife and I
have 7 years experience growing organic vegetables without the sun and
using the sun in conjunction with gro-lights in the winter . We can grow
bananas in Alaska, in January. I want to create a CD that anybody,
regardless of experience, can drop in their computer and have all the
info needed to grow delicious fruits and veggies year round no matter
what the climate is. I want to see a commercial greenhouse on every
vacant lot, parking lot of every church, school, hospital, and in every
neighborhood in the world. With the right backing, organic greenhouse
farming combined with aquaculture can become a top ten franchise. Well,
I'm out of time again.
| Message 17
Subject: Re: Unlinking Systems
From: fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 17:45:25 -0500 (CDT)
Kris it so happens that my wife and I would be interested in joining a
community like you have just described and my thinking has followed
along similar lines for most of my life
Bruce
| Message 18
Subject: Re: Unlinking Systems
From: kris book
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 17:13:44 -0600
Bruce,
I'm happy to meet you, I've enjoyed your posts very much. If you'd like
to discuss this community vision in private, you can reach me at
krisbook 'at' juno.com or call me at (719) 565- 2056 in Pueblo, Colorado. If
you'll send me your # and the best time to call, maybe we have enough
common interests to help each other manafest what we desire the most.
Besides taking care of my wife, this community searching/building is job
1. I am not looking for a community to survive the tough times ahead, I'm
looking for a community that will thrive in the toughest times. I've got
to go back to the hospital now, more soon.
On Sat, 28 Apr 2001 17:45:25 -0500 (CDT) fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce
Schreiber) writes:
> Kris it so happens that my wife and I would be interested in joining
> a
> community like you have just described and my thinking has followed
> along similar lines for most of my life
> Bruce
>
>
| Message 19
Subject: unsubscribe
From: "Paul F. Beglane"
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 16:16:43 -0700 (PDT)
unsubscribe
=====
******************************************
Paul F. Beglane,
Aquaculture Project Manager
Re-Vision House, Inc.
Boston, MA, USA
__________________________________________________
| Message 20
Subject: I Just Had to Let You Know - Solar Panels
From: "TGTX"
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 19:21:55 -0500
Folks, I just got a call from my oldest buddy, Michael.
Our mutual friend, Bob, wants to get rid of a solar water heater panel,
that, so far as he knows, has never been put to good use.just sitting
on a SHADED roof in suburbiaand so I am up tomorrow to asend the roof
of said Bobster and take that puppy off his hands.
Wish me luck.
And here I was scratchin' and schemin' to go out and build my own, and one
lands in my lap, unsolicited.....and totally unexpected
Shine on you Crazy Diamonds...
Tedster.
| Message 21
Subject: Re: Unlinking Systems
From: Raul Vergueiro Martins
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 21:08:49 +0100
Hello Kris:
kris book wrote:
> Dear Raul,
>
> For my purposes, both are of equal importance. Now that there are
> reliable electrical generators that run on straight biogas(Capstone model
> 330), greenhouse growers can choose to create any climate they choose and
> maintain that climate 12 months a year. In fact,I believe it will be
> possible to grow the giant fruits and vegetables, that grow naturally in
> the Mantuska Valley, Alaska anywhere in the world. Growers will be able
> to harvest up to six crops a year or even for instance. We could
> conceivably plant and harvest a broccoli plant or whatever we choose,
> every day of the year. Cheap fuel(biogas) will allow a farmer to create
> any light intensity desired with the aid of gro-lights.
Yes, you are right, but biogas can't be used directly in internal combustion engines.
You must purify it.
CO2 and SH2 must be removed for you to improove your biogas, getting pure methane from it,
and to avoid the destruction of the engines by SH2.
Not only that, but, you can mix methane with other combustibles to reduce their
consumption, just mixing said methane with air, at the air inlet of the engines.
We made all that with great success.
You can use biogas for CO2 enrichment, just burning it, but even so, you should clean it
from SH2.
> I've got to get back to the hospital but, I am pasting a couple of
> paragraphs from an intro I sent an intentional community. Thank you for
> taking time to clarify so much in so little time. One last thing, I've
> been thinking that bio-fertilizer will allow aquaponic systems to grow
> the heaviest feeding plants without any nutrient problems.
With plants used by their leaves, like lettuce, you will have no problems.
But for plants used by the fruits, in a medium or large commercial system, you will have
some defficiencies that must be corrected, like Calcium and Magnesium.
> kris book
>
> During the 1980's and early 90's my wife and I gardened year round at
> about 6,000 ft. in Central Oregon. I designed and built a greenhouse out
> of PVC pipe. In the winter we added gro-lights and CO2 injection. We
> learned to start plants from cuttings. We also experimented with
> different compost recipes, which led us to experimenting with organic
> hydroponics (bioponic) growing. We attained a great deal of satisfaction
> from the knowledge that we could feed ourselves fresh organic food every
> day of the year under any climate conditions. In fact, we had some of our
> best crops in January when the temperature never reached above 0 for 8 or
> 9 days in a row. I am sure that I can double the normal production of a
> commercial greenhouse, and I speculate that I can probably triple and
> maybe a little more than average production with my organic hydroponics
> (bioponic) system and CO2 injection. Please let me know if ya'll have in
> interest in communicating with us.
> I'd also be interested in talking to anyone that you know that is
> planning to build similar communities, preferably some place that has
> four seasons. That way, I can resume my quest to eliminate world hunger.
> I believe that since most of the world's population lives in urban areas
> with short growing seasons, then that's where the food should be grown. I
> see no reason to pay truck drivers and brokers to bring me food that is
> picked too early because the food has to travel so far. My wife and I
> have 7 years experience growing organic vegetables without the sun and
> using the sun in conjunction with gro-lights in the winter . We can grow
> bananas in Alaska, in January. I want to create a CD that anybody,
> regardless of experience, can drop in their computer and have all the
> info needed to grow delicious fruits and veggies year round no matter
> what the climate is. I want to see a commercial greenhouse on every
> vacant lot, parking lot of every church, school, hospital, and in every
> neighborhood in the world. With the right backing, organic greenhouse
> farming combined with aquaculture can become a top ten franchise. Well,
> I'm out of time again.
Best regards
Raul Vergueiro Martins
rvm 'at' sti.com.br
| Message 22
Subject: RE: Unlinking Systems
From: "Taylors"
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 21:30:12 -0400
I am from southern Ontario 2 hours north west of Toronto. This past winter
which started in early October and did not end until mid April and there was
very little sunlight caused a lot of greenhouse farmers to break the budget
on heating and lighting. I would be interested in hearing the best way to
heat and provide artificial light to a greenhouse when the temp is an
average -10 for most of the winter and only around 9-10 hours of sunlight.
-----Original Message-----
From: aquaponics-request 'at' townsqr.com
[mailto:aquaponics-request 'at' townsqr.com]On Behalf Of kris book
Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2001 5:28 PM
To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
Subject: Re: Unlinking Systems
Dear Raul,
For my purposes, both are of equal importance. Now that there are
reliable electrical generators that run on straight biogas(Capstone model
330), greenhouse growers can choose to create any climate they choose and
maintain that climate 12 months a year. In fact,I believe it will be
possible to grow the giant fruits and vegetables, that grow naturally in
the Mantuska Valley, Alaska anywhere in the world. Growers will be able
to harvest up to six crops a year or even for instance. We could
conceivably plant and harvest a broccoli plant or whatever we choose,
every day of the year. Cheap fuel(biogas) will allow a farmer to create
any light intensity desired with the aid of gro-lights.
I've got to get back to the hospital but, I am pasting a couple of
paragraphs from an intro I sent an intentional community. Thank you for
taking time to clarify so much in so little time. One last thing, I've
been thinking that bio-fertilizer will allow aquaponic systems to grow
the heaviest feeding plants without any nutrient problems.
kris book
During the 1980's and early 90's my wife and I gardened year round at
about 6,000 ft. in Central Oregon. I designed and built a greenhouse out
of PVC pipe. In the winter we added gro-lights and CO2 injection. We
learned to start plants from cuttings. We also experimented with
different compost recipes, which led us to experimenting with organic
hydroponics (bioponic) growing. We attained a great deal of satisfaction
from the knowledge that we could feed ourselves fresh organic food every
day of the year under any climate conditions. In fact, we had some of our
best crops in January when the temperature never reached above 0 for 8 or
9 days in a row. I am sure that I can double the normal production of a
commercial greenhouse, and I speculate that I can probably triple and
maybe a little more than average production with my organic hydroponics
(bioponic) system and CO2 injection. Please let me know if ya'll have in
interest in communicating with us.
I'd also be interested in talking to anyone that you know that is
planning to build similar communities, preferably some place that has
four seasons. That way, I can resume my quest to eliminate world hunger.
I believe that since most of the world's population lives in urban areas
with short growing seasons, then that's where the food should be grown. I
see no reason to pay truck drivers and brokers to bring me food that is
picked too early because the food has to travel so far. My wife and I
have 7 years experience growing organic vegetables without the sun and
using the sun in conjunction with gro-lights in the winter . We can grow
bananas in Alaska, in January. I want to create a CD that anybody,
regardless of experience, can drop in their computer and have all the
info needed to grow delicious fruits and veggies year round no matter
what the climate is. I want to see a commercial greenhouse on every
vacant lot, parking lot of every church, school, hospital, and in every
neighborhood in the world. With the right backing, organic greenhouse
farming combined with aquaculture can become a top ten franchise. Well,
I'm out of time again.
| Message 23
Subject: Re: Unlinking Systems
From: kris book
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 20:35:45 -0600
Hello Taylor,
I could tell you how I did it but, I'm sure you'd rather hear how I would
do it the next time I am faced with below zero temps. A few things you
really need to garden year round at your latitude are; a well insulated
room with some ventilation for those weeks when the temp never gets above
zero. You will have to move everything that is alive in the greenhouse to
the gro-room before the temp drops to much unless your gro-room is
attached to your greenhouse. Outside winter temps raise hell with plants
in about 30 seconds.
Just as important is a cheap source of electricity. I don't know what
power costs in Canada. Despite what my friend Raul just said about biogas
not being sufficient on its own to power internal combustion engines, I
have seen a generator that is marketed as being able to run for years on
straight biogas. It is called the Capstone model 330, look up
microturbine.com. It is a very expensive machine to purchase but, its
output is 30KW and that's enough power to run a house and 150' of
commercial greenhouse. This machine also makes hot water, forced air
heat, and has water chiller capabilities. So what ever the costs are,
don't mean much because, you can purchase the machine with your increased
profits.
And finally you need gro-lights which burn so hot that you can get a
severe burn from just one touch. These lights were almost always all I
had to use to keep my greenhouse warm all night on the coldest nights.
Only when the sun didn't shine at all for a few days would I be forced to
move my plants to the gro-room. I almost never used my gas heater and the
money spent on lights increased profits, where money spent on heat was
just a hole in the ground to pour money in. There are also about 100
accessories you'll want when you start playing with all these new toys
but, I'll go into that another time.
kris
P.S> If you live near an oil field, this Capstone generator is
advertised to run on the low grade gas that oil fields throw away.
| Message 24
Subject: Re: Unlinking Systems
From: Raul Vergueiro Martins
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 23:03:20 +0100
Hello Taylors:
If you have sufficient animal manure, biodigesting it could produce sufficient biogas run
an electrical generatoror.
This is a possibility, and not a final solution, as at those temperatures we could have
problems with biodigestion.
Produced gas should have to be sufficient to heat the biomass and to run the generator.
Best regards
Raul Vergueiro Martins
rvm 'at' sti.com.br
Taylors wrote:
> I am from southern Ontario 2 hours north west of Toronto. This past winter
> which started in early October and did not end until mid April and there was
> very little sunlight caused a lot of greenhouse farmers to break the budget
> on heating and lighting. I would be interested in hearing the best way to
> heat and provide artificial light to a greenhouse when the temp is an
> average -10 for most of the winter and only around 9-10 hours of sunlight.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: aquaponics-request 'at' townsqr.com
> [mailto:aquaponics-request 'at' townsqr.com]On Behalf Of kris book
> Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2001 5:28 PM
> To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
> Subject: Re: Unlinking Systems
| Message 25
Subject: Re: Unlinking Systems
From: kris book
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 22:42:14 -0600
Taylor,
I probably don't have to tell a Canadian anything about keeping a
bio-digester warm but, I will say that I never had a problem keeping my
compost operation running year round. Just remember that not much happens
below 55 degrees F where compost and I assume bio-digesters are
concerned. I've never tested my root cellar's temp. but, I've read that
below frost line is always 50+ F. I have wintered at over 9,000 ft. and
the root cellar didn't freeze. There is certainly lot to learn about this
hi-tech growing and it's for sure much more labor intensive but, the
rewards are real security and if things ever get really tough, you'll be
the richest guy around. My life has never been better than the years I
spent gardening/farming year round in the north.
kris
|
