Aquaponics Digest - Fri 05/11/01
Message 1: Fish Sales vs. Fecal Taste
from "STEVE SPRING"
Message 2: RE: Fish Sales vs. Fecal Taste
from "billevans"
Message 3: Re: Fish Sales vs. Fecal Taste
from "KenHale"
Message 4: organic certification requirements
from laberge 'at' cil.qc.ca (LABERGE MARC)
Message 5: Re: organic certification requirements
from "Adriana Gutierrez"
Message 6: SGVGA COnference 2001
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 7: RE: Mohapatha greenhouse design
from "Carlos Arano"
Message 8: Re: organic certification requirements
from Peggy & Emmett
Message 9: Re: organic certification requirements
from "TGTX"
Message 10: Re: organic certification requirements
from marc 'at' aculink.net
Message 11: Re: organic certification requirements
from Gordon Watkins
Message 12: Re: organic certification requirements
from "TGTX"
| Message 1
Subject: Fish Sales vs. Fecal Taste
From: "STEVE SPRING"
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 00:51:10 -0500
Hi Mike Davey, Peggy, Emmitt and Ken Hale,
Thanks for your respective responses.
I'm kind of in limbo right now as far as these Tilapia go. Someone on the
list stated that their Tilapia had the taste of the "system" and even had a
fecal taste to them. I remember wondering at the time, "What in the world is
this guy talking about? What is a "fecal taste"? I mean, has this guy been
out tasting "you know what"? Then, one night, I was cleaning some Tilapia
that I had just purged for 4 days and his words came to me again
.I almost
fell over. What the guy was saying in pure colloquial (sp) terms is that
they "taste like sh
!" Sometimes you have to spell things out for me. It
took me almost 2 months to catch on to this.
Well, the only reason I bring this up is that this is the problem that I am
having. I through a grave lack of experience cooked and tasted (& even
sold
woe is me) some fish straight out of the system. THEY WERE
HORRIBLE! I actually spit a mouthful back into my plate. Then I remembered
that you have to purge these things first. Well, I purged a batch for 4
days. Did everything right. Changed 1/3 of the water twice a day and even
ran a filter. I tried these today and, to tell you the truth, they were
"kind of" o.k., but I would never buy them. I have a new batch that I just
filleted and these were purged for over 5 days. If these aren't tasty, I'm
not sure what I'm going to do.
Now, you have to remember that these are my original Tilapia babies. These
guys are 18-20 months old and are only 1/2 - 3/4 # ea. They have been
subjected to all kind of stresses due to my learning curve. I wonder if I
should just trash all of them and start over. (Those hybrid bluegills are
starting to sound better and better.)
Any feedback is appreciated. Again, thanks to all who responded.
Mike Davey, have you actually grown any of these out and tried them?
Later
Steve
| Message 2
Subject: RE: Fish Sales vs. Fecal Taste
From: "billevans"
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 07:05:42 -0700
Crops grown w/ raw manure can acquire some of the constituents in that
manure. Possibly , some of the feed ingredients you are using were fert'd
w/ raw manure
or the fish are eating their own.
bille
| Message 3
Subject: Re: Fish Sales vs. Fecal Taste
From: "KenHale"
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 09:20:51 -0500
Steve- Tilapia will eat each others waste so you want to be sure that your
system is sweeping the bottom and pushing that to your drain so that when
you add fresh water the waste is being pushed out. This usually has to be
pretty bad before that kind of flavor develops and usually other problems
will occur first. Best I can do from here. Ken Hale
----- Original Message -----
From: "STEVE SPRING"
To:
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 12:51 AM
Subject: Fish Sales vs. Fecal Taste
> Hi Mike Davey, Peggy, Emmitt and Ken Hale,
>
> Thanks for your respective responses.
>
> I'm kind of in limbo right now as far as these Tilapia go. Someone on the
> list stated that their Tilapia had the taste of the "system" and even had
a
> fecal taste to them. I remember wondering at the time, "What in the world
is
> this guy talking about? What is a "fecal taste"? I mean, has this guy been
> out tasting "you know what"? Then, one night, I was cleaning some Tilapia
> that I had just purged for 4 days and his words came to me again
.I
almost
> fell over. What the guy was saying in pure colloquial (sp) terms is that
> they "taste like sh
!" Sometimes you have to spell things out for me. It
> took me almost 2 months to catch on to this.
>
> Well, the only reason I bring this up is that this is the problem that I
am
> having. I through a grave lack of experience cooked and tasted (& even
> sold
woe is me) some fish straight out of the system. THEY WERE
> HORRIBLE! I actually spit a mouthful back into my plate. Then I remembered
> that you have to purge these things first. Well, I purged a batch for 4
> days. Did everything right. Changed 1/3 of the water twice a day and even
> ran a filter. I tried these today and, to tell you the truth, they were
> "kind of" o.k., but I would never buy them. I have a new batch that I just
> filleted and these were purged for over 5 days. If these aren't tasty, I'm
> not sure what I'm going to do.
>
> Now, you have to remember that these are my original Tilapia babies. These
> guys are 18-20 months old and are only 1/2 - 3/4 # ea. They have been
> subjected to all kind of stresses due to my learning curve. I wonder if I
> should just trash all of them and start over. (Those hybrid bluegills are
> starting to sound better and better.)
>
> Any feedback is appreciated. Again, thanks to all who responded.
>
> Mike Davey, have you actually grown any of these out and tried them?
>
> Later
Steve
>
>
>
| Message 4
Subject: organic certification requirements
From: laberge 'at' cil.qc.ca (LABERGE MARC)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 14:08:18 -0400
Can anyone give me a link to what is and what is not accepted in
hydro-organic farming?
Marc Laberge
Mont Tremblant
Quebec , Canada
| Message 5
Subject: Re: organic certification requirements
From: "Adriana Gutierrez"
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 14:09:03 -0500
Marc,
"Hydro-organic" per se is not a farming practice covered by any
specific national regulations in the US, but "ORGANIC" soon will be.
The United States Department of Agriculture's National Organic Program
Final Final Rules will become effective October 21, 2002I . The rules
are available on http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/ and run to many, many,
MANY, MANY pages which govern how production and handling operations
must comply in order to sell, label, or represent agricultural
products as "100 percent organic," "organic," or "made with organic
(specified ingredients or food group(s))." The producer or handler of
an organic production or handling operation must comply with all
applicable provisions of the rules. Any production practice
implemented in accordance with this subpart must maintain or improve
the natural resources, including soil and water quality, of the
operation. (Since hydroponic operations don't affect the soil since
they are above ground I would think you could argue that you are
"maintaining" the soil)
So, you must follow the rules in order to be certified and be allowed
to use the term organic in conncetion with your product. To be
certifiied you must go through an extensive review/inspection process
by an authorized certification agency that checks for compliance with
the rules and the record keeping requiremtns, which I understand are
extensive. Once you are certified, you can call yor products
"organic". This review occurs every year, I believe.
Now as to hydroponic or aquaponic operations being certified
organic
.in the past, different states had different organic
regulations and approved certiers could certifiy you "California
organic" or "Florida Organic", etc. and you could label your products
organic. In some states with NO regulations you could label your
products organic with no oversight whatsoever. All of that will end
with the new National regulations. The ceritifying agencies used to
use a certain amount of individual criteria in their interpretations
of the regulations - some certifiers interpreted certain practices as
allowable and others wouldn't. Under the old state programs some
aquaponic and hydroponic growers are reported to have obtained
certification despite not growing their crops in soil (which some
organic growers consider "unnatural" therefore not certifiable). I
don't beleive the new standards address hydroponics at all, and
aquaculture is not governed by them either. So
.I suspect the trick
to getting a hydroponic operation certified "organic" will be to
follow all of the rules to the letter with the exception of things
that ONLY apply to soil farming (like the requirement that you
practice crop rotation) and then find THE RIGHT CERTIFYING AGENCY, one
that has certified one of these operations before. I don't think
there are any geographic restrictions on the agencies, so a California
based agency can certifiy a Canadian operation if the grower is
willing to pay to fly them in and pay their inspection fees.
Now, to further complicate things, I believe European countries have
different and possibly more stringent standards than the US, so if you
want to export there you may need a separate certification. I don't
know if Canada has it own requirements.
Sorry this is so long, there simply is no short answer.
Adriana
> Can anyone give me a link to what is and what is not accepted in
> hydro-organic farming?
| Message 6
Subject: SGVGA COnference 2001
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 17:19:00 -0500
Southern Greenhouse Vegetable Growers Association=20
36th Annual Conference & Trade Show=20
Holiday Inn Hotel & Suites
Wichita Falls, Texas=20
July 13 =96 15, 2001
Here's the main page for the association:
http://www.sgvga.org/
Conference information begins at:
http://www.sgvga.org/tshowmain.htm
Agenda is listed:
http://www.sgvga.org/tshowagenda.htm
This growers group is a wonderful bunch of people, and as you can see, the
association has been active for 36 years now! There's a lot of indoor
growing experience there, folks! As you scroll through the agenda, be sure
to notice that "our own" Ted Ground is speaking on aquaponics. =20
A tour of the Young=92s Tilapia/Lettuce/Watercress Operation is planned for
Saturday morning -- they have a children's program -- good food and great
company. I highly recommend this conference!
Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
| Message 7
Subject: RE: Mohapatha greenhouse design
From: "Carlos Arano"
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 07:47:16 -0300
Bennett:
I think Adriana answered very well your questions. However I will add few
things. See below.
----- Original Message -----
From: bennett
To:
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 9:17 AM
Subject: Mohapatha greenhouse design
> Hello all,
> I am really intrigued with the Mohapatha greenhouse design, now that
I've
> seen it. (Thank you Carlos and Adrianne for getting it posted on a web
> site.) http://www.geocities.com/c_arano
> I do have some questions that I'd welcome others in the list to discuss:
> 1 - What kinds of "rope" or twine would hold up under humidity and
> sunlight for at least 5 years?
> 2 - Will this design work with the double layer of plastic air pillow
> design commonly used here in the USA?
I THINK IT IS POSSIBLE BUT YOU WILL HAVE TO MAKE YOUR OWN CHANGES. TRY BY
YOURSELF. ALSO, I TELL YOU, I HAVE IN MY MIND TO TRY IT MODIFYING MY OWN OUT
OF THE FLOOR MGH.
> 3 - Will it handle snow loads?
YES. IT WILL DO. BUT, IF YOU WANT, SEND A MAIL TO MOHAPATRA.
> Probably I'll think of more later, but really am interested in
> incorporating it in a "standard hoop" design, 'cause I have some hoops!
>
>
>
| Message 8
Subject: Re: organic certification requirements
From: Peggy & Emmett
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 20:01:43 -0400
At 02:09 PM 5/11/2001 -0500, Adriana Gutierrez wrote:
>Marc,
>
>"Hydro-organic" per se is not a farming practice covered by any
>specific national regulations in the US, but "ORGANIC" soon will be.
>
Well said. Em
| Message 9
Subject: Re: organic certification requirements
From: "TGTX"
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 20:23:06 -0500
> applicable provisions of the rules. Any production practice
> implemented in accordance with this subpart must maintain or improve
> the natural resources, including soil and water quality, of the
> operation. (Since hydroponic operations don't affect the soil since
> they are above ground I would think you could argue that you are
> "maintaining" the soil)
Indeed, A.G. Right On! Clearly, Hydroponics and Aquaponics, and various
hybridizations of the two, can ultimately result in soil conservation by
relieving a certain amount of tillage/disturbance pressure on open fields,
and even, later on, sending nutrients out to those fields in broadly dilute
forms, rather than discharging them directly into natural streams and
surface water bodies
.We can still recycling those "spent" greenhouse
nutrients after some point of multiple recycling periods within the
greenhouse
.and, I believe, consequentially enhance those outside,
natural soil conditions even more
. Agreed?
> organic. In some states with NO regulations you could label your
> products organic with no oversight whatsoever.
Ah, those were the days, my friend. Imagine honest farmers telling their
customers that they grew their crops without doing certain things, and
conserving topsoil by doing other things, and saying, "Folks, I believe in
what I am doing here, and I believe honestly that I am doing the right
thing
So, I grew this crop "organically" or "naturally"
by my own
rules", and then standing behind that claim by inviting folks out to the
farm to show them how they did it and why they did it , and talking to
them
So that neighbors, friends, family, and loyal consumers are
happy
. and so, these become satisfied customers, folks "connected" to
their food supply, as a result.
But, no, it is no longer legal to claim such a thing
or label your
product "Organically Grown" unless you are "certified organically grown".
Well, so be it.
And "certified" means inspected and registered and stamped etc by the State
and/or the Feds
So, the State inspectors drive out to your area in
their State vehicle, traveling 150 miles to get to your county, then they
have to stay at the local hotel where they use the local drinking water and
waste water treatment plant facilities to linger about before the deed is
done, drive out to your farm in the State car, smoking a pack or two of
Marlboro cigarettes over the course of their trip
cause, like, tobacco is
organic, man,
(hack, hack)
.and then they come out and take samples of
your soil, gravel, water, and plants, and they fill out reams of paper work,
with multiple copies, consuming trees for that paperwork, and air
conditioned office space for the filing cabinets to store it all in for 5
years or more, and using copier machines that generate loads of selenium,
solvents, and other industrial compounds in the State Office paperwork
process, then they send the samples to the State lab, where hundreds of
milliliters of nitric, hydrochloric, and sulfuric acids, and up to several
liters of methylene chloride,hexane, methanol, ether, and other solvents,
not to mention how many watts of precious electic energy, are used in the
lab to digest, extract, and analyze your "organic" samples, along with
analytical standards and blanks and QC samples
.a considerable percentage
of which, of these acids and solvents and DDT, chlordane, diazinon, and
chlorpyrifos lab standards, are blown up into the atmosphere and into the
clouds, which eventually rain down upon us all, and upon our "organic
farms"
.So that more pollutants are generated, and more of your public
tax dollars are spent, to visit you, sample your farm, and analyze your farm
at the State lab, than you would have ever generated on your farm site in 10
years of farm production
.HA!!!
> organic growers consider "unnatural" therefore not certifiable). I
> don't beleive the new standards address hydroponics at all, and
> aquaculture is not governed by them either.
Well, it is not because some of us didn't try to insert some kinda language
in there as a way of keeping the
.uh, certain elements
from
dominating the rap, but seeing the ambitious zeal of the regulatory writing
on the wall, I am tempted to somberly repeat
"Mene, Mene, Tekel,
Uparsham", or cuneform expressions to that effect.
> So
.I suspect the trick
> to getting a hydroponic operation certified "organic" will be to
> follow all of the rules to the letter with the exception of things
> that ONLY apply to soil farming (like the requirement that you
> practice crop rotation) and then find THE RIGHT CERTIFYING AGENCY, one
> that has certified one of these operations before. I don't think
> there are any geographic restrictions on the agencies, so a California
> based agency can certifiy a Canadian operation if the grower is
> willing to pay to fly them in and pay their inspection fees.
This reminds me of that old joke
"the definition of a
consultant"
"Someone that travels more than 150 miles from home to tell
somebody else what to do
."
> Sorry this is so long, there simply is no short answer.
>
> Adriana
Indeed. Way to be, A.G
You managed to cover it eloquently and lucidly
.with only 10% of the
verbage and 1% of the "Sturm und Drong" (Goethe) that I seem to launch into.
Ted
| Message 10
Subject: Re: organic certification requirements
From: marc 'at' aculink.net
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 19:37:46 -0600
Well Put Tedzo!
I would have had to launch one of my tirades about the
current state of scam artist protectionist socialist
mongering human hating government employees at the pork
barrel feed trough of the eternal children "take care of me"
bunch willing to take half of what I make to support their
endless addiction to the illusion of government protection.
I'm so happy I didn't have to.
Marc
TGTX wrote:
>
.>
> And "certified" means inspected and registered and stamped etc by the State
> and/or the Feds
So, the State inspectors drive out to your area in
| Message 11
Subject: Re: organic certification requirements
From: Gordon Watkins
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 20:49:09 -0500
Aw, come on Ted. It's really not that bad. I've been certified continously for
over 20 years now and, yes, it's gotten a little more stringent, and yes, it's
gotten a little more expensive and, yes, there's a little more paperwork, but
the expanded markets and higher prices for my products way more more than offset
the expense and inconvienience. Certification is simply a marketing tool,
period, and if you can't recoup enough to justify the time and money required,
then it's not for you. Without exception, I have found the field inspectors to
be conscientious, polite, knowledgable folks who are committed to the underlying
principles of organic farming and healthy food. They have never taken samples
for lab analysis, nor, to my understanding of the Rule, will they routinely do
so in the future- only if a violation is suspected. I think that, in spite of
the "organicracy" which will be created, the NOP will professionalize our
business and result in expanded markets and most importantly, assure consumers
who do not have direct contact with the farmer that their food was grown
organically. Just give it a chance to work.
Gordon Watkins
TGTX wrote:
> > applicable provisions of the rules. Any production practice
> > implemented in accordance with this subpart must maintain or improve
> > the natural resources, including soil and water quality, of the
> > operation. (Since hydroponic operations don't affect the soil since
> > they are above ground I would think you could argue that you are
> > "maintaining" the soil)
>
> Indeed, A.G. Right On! Clearly, Hydroponics and Aquaponics, and various
> hybridizations of the two, can ultimately result in soil conservation by
> relieving a certain amount of tillage/disturbance pressure on open fields,
> and even, later on, sending nutrients out to those fields in broadly dilute
> forms, rather than discharging them directly into natural streams and
> surface water bodies
.We can still recycling those "spent" greenhouse
> nutrients after some point of multiple recycling periods within the
> greenhouse
.and, I believe, consequentially enhance those outside,
> natural soil conditions even more
. Agreed?
>
> > organic. In some states with NO regulations you could label your
> > products organic with no oversight whatsoever.
>
> Ah, those were the days, my friend. Imagine honest farmers telling their
> customers that they grew their crops without doing certain things, and
> conserving topsoil by doing other things, and saying, "Folks, I believe in
> what I am doing here, and I believe honestly that I am doing the right
> thing
So, I grew this crop "organically" or "naturally"
by my own
> rules", and then standing behind that claim by inviting folks out to the
> farm to show them how they did it and why they did it , and talking to
> them
So that neighbors, friends, family, and loyal consumers are
> happy
. and so, these become satisfied customers, folks "connected" to
> their food supply, as a result.
>
> But, no, it is no longer legal to claim such a thing
or label your
> product "Organically Grown" unless you are "certified organically grown".
> Well, so be it.
>
> And "certified" means inspected and registered and stamped etc by the State
> and/or the Feds
So, the State inspectors drive out to your area in
> their State vehicle, traveling 150 miles to get to your county, then they
> have to stay at the local hotel where they use the local drinking water and
> waste water treatment plant facilities to linger about before the deed is
> done, drive out to your farm in the State car, smoking a pack or two of
> Marlboro cigarettes over the course of their trip
cause, like, tobacco is
> organic, man,
(hack, hack)
.and then they come out and take samples of
> your soil, gravel, water, and plants, and they fill out reams of paper work,
> with multiple copies, consuming trees for that paperwork, and air
> conditioned office space for the filing cabinets to store it all in for 5
> years or more, and using copier machines that generate loads of selenium,
> solvents, and other industrial compounds in the State Office paperwork
> process, then they send the samples to the State lab, where hundreds of
> milliliters of nitric, hydrochloric, and sulfuric acids, and up to several
> liters of methylene chloride,hexane, methanol, ether, and other solvents,
> not to mention how many watts of precious electic energy, are used in the
> lab to digest, extract, and analyze your "organic" samples, along with
> analytical standards and blanks and QC samples
.a considerable percentage
> of which, of these acids and solvents and DDT, chlordane, diazinon, and
> chlorpyrifos lab standards, are blown up into the atmosphere and into the
> clouds, which eventually rain down upon us all, and upon our "organic
> farms"
.So that more pollutants are generated, and more of your public
> tax dollars are spent, to visit you, sample your farm, and analyze your farm
> at the State lab, than you would have ever generated on your farm site in 10
> years of farm production
.HA!!!
>
> > organic growers consider "unnatural" therefore not certifiable). I
> > don't beleive the new standards address hydroponics at all, and
> > aquaculture is not governed by them either.
>
> Well, it is not because some of us didn't try to insert some kinda language
> in there as a way of keeping the
.uh, certain elements
from
> dominating the rap, but seeing the ambitious zeal of the regulatory writing
> on the wall, I am tempted to somberly repeat
"Mene, Mene, Tekel,
> Uparsham", or cuneform expressions to that effect.
>
> > So
.I suspect the trick
> > to getting a hydroponic operation certified "organic" will be to
> > follow all of the rules to the letter with the exception of things
> > that ONLY apply to soil farming (like the requirement that you
> > practice crop rotation) and then find THE RIGHT CERTIFYING AGENCY, one
> > that has certified one of these operations before. I don't think
> > there are any geographic restrictions on the agencies, so a California
> > based agency can certifiy a Canadian operation if the grower is
> > willing to pay to fly them in and pay their inspection fees.
>
> This reminds me of that old joke
"the definition of a
> consultant"
"Someone that travels more than 150 miles from home to tell
> somebody else what to do
."
>
> > Sorry this is so long, there simply is no short answer.
> >
> > Adriana
>
> Indeed. Way to be, A.G
> You managed to cover it eloquently and lucidly
.with only 10% of the
> verbage and 1% of the "Sturm und Drong" (Goethe) that I seem to launch into.
>
> Ted
| Message 12
Subject: Re: organic certification requirements
From: "TGTX"
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 22:57:29 -0500
> Aw, come on Ted. It's really not that bad. I've been certified continously
for
> over 20 years now and, yes, it's gotten a little more stringent, and yes,
it's
> gotten a little more expensive and, yes, there's a little more paperwork,
but
> the expanded markets and higher prices for my products way more more than
offset
> the expense and inconvienience.
Oh.
O.K.
Then everything is AOK.
Sorry to have brought up any kind of opinions otherwise.
Good night, Nurse.
Ted
|
