Aquaponics Digest - Sat 05/12/01
Message 1: Re: organic certification requirements
from "Adriana Gutierrez"
Message 2: Re: organic certification requirements
from "TGTX"
Message 3: new member
from Jim Joyner
Message 4: Re: new member
from "TGTX"
Message 5: organic certification
from laberge 'at' cil.qc.ca (LABERGE MARC)
Message 6: Re: organic certification
from "TGTX"
Message 7: Re: organic certification requirements
from kris book
Message 8: Re: new member - Welcome
from "Adriana Gutierrez"
Message 9: Re: organic certification
from "Adriana Gutierrez"
Message 10: Re: organic certification requirements
from Peggy & Emmett
Message 11: Re: new member - Welcome
from Jim Joyner
Message 12: Re: organic certification requirements
from Peggy & Emmett
Message 13: Re: organic certification requirements
from "Adriana Gutierrez"
Message 14: Re: organic certification requirements
from "TGTX"
Message 15: Re: organic certification requirements
from LHaver1038 'at' aol.com
Message 16: RE: organic certification requirements
from "billevans"
Message 17: RE: organic certification requirements
from Peggy & Emmett
Message 18: Re: organic certification requirements
from kris book
Message 19: Re: organic certification
from pablo obiaga
Message 20: Mold
from "Steven Medlock"
Message 21: Re: organic certification requirements
from "TGTX"
Message 22: Re: organic certification requirements
from "TGTX"
Message 23: Re: Mold
from "TGTX"
Message 24: Re: organic certification requirements
from Peggy & Emmett
Message 25: RE: organic certification requirements
from "WALTER SHARRER"
| Message 1
Subject: Re: organic certification requirements
From: "Adriana Gutierrez"
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 05:38:20 -0500
Actually a consultant is somebody who borrows your watch to tell you
what time it is :>).> This reminds me of that old joke
"the definition of a
> consultant"
"Someone that travels more than 150 miles from home
to tell
> somebody else what to do
."
Adriana
(a consultant in a former life, having to use her own watch now)
| Message 2
Subject: Re: organic certification requirements
From: "TGTX"
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 07:38:22 -0500
> the expense and inconvienience. Certification is simply a marketing tool,
> period, and if you can't recoup enough to justify the time and money
required,
> then it's not for you.
I agree with you there. I found that I HAD to have certification. Thus, to
a degree therein lies some of my
.how shall I say this
.frustration?
>Without exception, I have found the field inspectors to
> be conscientious, polite, knowledgable folks who are committed to the
underlying
> principles of organic farming and healthy food.
I also agree with you there. I meant no characterization of actual
individuals, living or deceased, in my fictional representation of the 2
pack a day smoker tooling around the state to inspect the little organic
farmers garden plots
I will say that, as a current state employee,
(yes, I am part of the problem that I am whining about) I find it
fascinating that all these dedicated state employees that just live to bust
a small time polluter, some of whom that I have talked with are strick
vegetarians for some reason that they rationalize is related to the like,
environment, man, go outside the building 5 times a day to huff on those
cancer sticks. So I took some poetic license there
>They have never taken samples
> for lab analysis, nor, to my understanding of the Rule, will they
routinely do
> so in the future- only if a violation is suspected.
Well, in my state, that is the FIRST thing they do
.run a bunch of samples
to the lab
many samples. And of course I was exaggerating, for the sake
of illustration, the imagined impact of small amounts of industrial
chemicals that we use in everyday life, but you gotta admit
that the
blind, utter fear that people have of a part per trillion of certain things
drives much of the organic "movement", and I was playing conceptually fast
and loose with the notion of inspection and the government system that
monitors and regulates the organic system. Fast and loose doesn't mean it
ain't true. Some times fiction is truer than life, or something like that.
>I think that, in spite of
> the "organicracy" which will be created, the NOP will professionalize our
> business and result in expanded markets and most importantly, assure
consumers
> who do not have direct contact with the farmer that their food was grown
> organically. Just give it a chance to work.
O.K., Gord-o. Since I have no choice, I guess I have to.
Look, don't get me wrong. I don't use pesticides, and my tomatoes grow in
compost. I tend to use pyrethrin and diatomateous earth, or ammonia and hot
water, on fire ant mounds on the lawn once in a rare while, but generally I
have an old hippie rural kind of life style, with no, like, chemicals, man.
So I have mixed feelings and approaches to this whole "organic" concept. I
kinda like it for certain reasons, and I kinda resent the idea that we had
to go through years of bureaucratic and decidedly left wing political
machinations to get to this point on the national level. Quite Silly and
Embarassing to me
.embarassing in that at times I am not very proud of
the human race and all it's regulatory zeal, you know, like Barney Phife as
a rabid little Chihuahua dog wanting to put the bullet in the gun
"Can I
put the bullet in the gun, now, Andy??".
And if we get the big greenhouse system cranked back up at this new
location, I will likely have every square inch of the property certified
organic by the State. But I will do it because I HAVE to do it, to reach
the markets that I must reach, not because I am a true believer that the
State is protecting me or that this system is the best of all worlds.
Perhaps this is a necessary complexity and I am just whining. So, O.K.
Gordon, I will stop doing that right now.
Right now I gotta go shopping for metal roofing. I will lay that down
first, before I install my solar hot water heater system that was donated to
me just recently, and the metal roof will be part of my future rainwater
capture system. So, you see, I am still out there on the alternative
resources fringe, Gordon
.so, don't give up hope on me yet.
Your Old (& Former) Hippie Compadre
Ted
| Message 3
Subject: new member
From: Jim Joyner
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 09:39:14 -0500
Hello,
We are Barb and Jim Joyner -- we've joined this list, primarily, with a
great interest in aquaponics, but we notice that other interesting topics
get woven into a good-hearted fray.
We live and farm in Middle Tennessee (little place called short Mountain).
We grow blueberries, blackberries, and raspberries -- we are in the process
of integrating poultry with our brambles. We are an organic farm in the
J.I. Rodale tradition but do not certify Organic. We also have a buying
club (http://morningsidefarm.com) from which we retail all manner of whole
foods to about 500 families -- mostly local, but we do some mail order all
over the globe. The buying club reduces our marketing costs of farm product
so that we can remain a small, yet diversified, farm operation.
Occasionally, we train/support others to create and run their own buying
clubs.
Barb has an interest in teaching folks to eat better.(she was an elementary
teacher in a former life). She does classes in cooking and nutrition,
besides running the buying club.
Jim has a passion for sustainable agriculture (He was an electrical
engineer). He's been active with various NGO and gov't organizations in SA
for over a decade -- is presently on the southern SARE Professional
Development Program, Leadership committee (besides lifting the heavy boxes
and running the computer stuff for the buying club).
We are in our late fifties. We built our farm enterprise with the idea of
having the business revolve around the way we live rather the other way
round. Kids are gone now, so we continue to struggle with keeping a
balanced life and a balanced business.
Presently, we are setting up a 20x20 metal hoop frame greenhouse. In it we
are planning a single "node" with a fish tank and 4 growing beds. We have
high hopes for growing a lot of produce but realize we probably have a lot
to learn. To that end we are happy to be here.
Barb and Jim Joyner
| Message 4
Subject: Re: new member
From: "TGTX"
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 10:13:20 -0500
> We are Barb and Jim Joyner -- we've joined this list, primarily, with a
> great interest in aquaponics, but we notice that other interesting topics
> get woven into a good-hearted fray.
>
Howdy Barb and Jim.
Glad you could Joyn us.
Ted
| Message 5
Subject: organic certification
From: laberge 'at' cil.qc.ca (LABERGE MARC)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 12:11:03 -0400
Thank you Adriana, I am planning to follow all the rules, then fight like
hell here in Quebec to market my lettuce as hydro-organic. I saw this term
on one of the fertilizers sold by California Hydroponics. I thought it was
great, and plan to plant this seed everywhere I can up here to stir-up
things a little.
Marc Laberge
Mont Tremblant
Quebec , Canada
| Message 6
Subject: Re: organic certification
From: "TGTX"
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 11:20:53 -0500
> Thank you Adriana, I am planning to follow all the rules, then fight like
> hell here in Quebec to market my lettuce as hydro-organic. I saw this term
> on one of the fertilizers sold by California Hydroponics. I thought it was
> great, and plan to plant this seed everywhere I can up here to stir-up
> things a little.
>
> Marc Laberge
> Mont Tremblant
> Quebec , Canada
There you go, Marc. Put on the velvet glove on the old iron fist and go for
it. I personally wouldn't mind seeing plain old hydroponics with inorganic
salts (CaNO3, etc) being considered "organic", if no synthetic pesticides
such as diazinon, chlorpyrifos, etc, were used in the plant culture, but I
then that's just me
.you won't find many organic true believers that
would agree to that broad a definition.
Good Luck, Old Chap.
Ted
| Message 7
Subject: Re: organic certification requirements
From: kris book
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 10:38:22 -0600
Ted,
I have a question about insects in an aquaponic greenhouse but, first
I'll give you a little info of my greenhouse experience with insects. Of
the seven years I spent growing organically in a greenhouse, the first 4
were spent frantically trying to stop insect infestations with Safer's
soap, pyrethrum, hot water sprays,
and all kind of foul smelling concoctions that were supposed to drive the
damn bugs out. All of a sudden, one day I went into the greenhouse to
resume my own private little war and to my amazement, I couldn't find a
bug to kill. Totally confused, I went from plant to plant but, none could
be found. Finally, I went outside and starting looking under the leaves
of the weeds that were growing and sure enough, there were all of my
adversaries munching on weeds. Looking back, I realized that I had only
recently changed from making my compost haphazardly, to a traditional
Indore method and I had also added worms and castings to my organic
soilless planting mix. Well, I guess I'll try to speed up this thing by
saying, I never bought anymore soap or spray. And now for my question,
are the nutrient levels in an aquaponic system sufficient to discourage
insects or is a constant battle the norm.
kris
Look, don't get me wrong. I don't use pesticides, and my tomatoes grow
in
compost. I tend to use pyrethrum and diatomaceous earth, or ammonia and
hot
water, on fire ant mounds on the lawn once in a rare while, but generally
I
have an old hippie rural kind of life style, with no, like, chemicals,
man.
So I have mixed feelings and approaches to this whole "organic" concept.
_________
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
| Message 8
Subject: Re: new member - Welcome
From: "Adriana Gutierrez"
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 12:08:09 -0500
Jim and Barb,
Welcome to this jolly, dysfunctional, rambunctious and occasionally
socially inept crowd. I think we can learn as much from you as you
can from us.
Adriana
(Where in Tennessee are you - N, S, E or W?)
> Presently, we are setting up a 20x20 metal hoop frame greenhouse. In
it we
> are planning a single "node" with a fish tank and 4 growing beds. We
have
> high hopes for growing a lot of produce but realize we probably have
a lot
> to learn. To that end we are happy to be here.
>
> Barb and Jim Joyner
>
>
>
| Message 9
Subject: Re: organic certification
From: "Adriana Gutierrez"
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 12:11:16 -0500
Go for it Marc! Unless there is legislation similar to that recently
adopted in the US (or previously at the state level) you should be
able to do it. Here in the US we'll prbably have to go with
"hydro-natural" or some other name without the "O" word in it.
Adriana
> Thank you Adriana, I am planning to follow all the rules, then fight
like
> hell here in Quebec to market my lettuce as hydro-organic. I saw
this term
> on one of the fertilizers sold by California Hydroponics. I thought
it was
> great, and plan to plant this seed everywhere I can up here to
stir-up
> things a little.
| Message 10
Subject: Re: organic certification requirements
From: Peggy & Emmett
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 13:27:14 -0400
At 08:23 PM 5/11/2001 -0500, TGTX wrote:
>> applicable provisions of the rules. Any production practice
Organic farming demands crop rotation? Curious. Who rotates the crops on
the wild praries, desert, and our great forests?
.Emmett
| Message 11
Subject: Re: new member - Welcome
From: Jim Joyner
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 12:28:20 -0500
>
>(Where in Tennessee are you - N, S, E or W?)
Middle Tennessee, about 75 miles southeast of Nashville -- in the boonies.
Jim
| Message 12
Subject: Re: organic certification requirements
From: Peggy & Emmett
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 14:07:48 -0400
At 07:38 AM 5/12/2001 -0500, TGTX wrote:
>> the expense and inconvienience. Certification is simply a marketing tool,
>> period, and if you can't recoup enough to justify the time and money
>required,
>> then it's not for you.
>
Marketing, finally, a subject I know a little about. My tomatoes are
grown aquaponically following all standards, that are applicable, set forth
by Florida Organic Growers. The store that sells my tomatoes won't put an
organic sign on them because they aren't "certified". O.K. So the sign
reads, "Picked Today, Grown in Palm Harbor. PESTICIDE FREE. They sit
right next to the Mexican certified organic tomatoes. Sell for the same
price $2.59 a pound. And sell out before one Mexican tomato is sold. This
is in a health food store. Customers tell me they "look healthy". And
they do.
Organic to me, as a consumer, means something that was free of pesticides.
Just that simple. So my fully vine ripened, rave about the flavor, bright
red, shiny (I was asked if I polish them), pesticide free tomatoes outsell
the "organic" ones. Now, if I can just make a living at it.
.Emmett
| Message 13
Subject: Re: organic certification requirements
From: "Adriana Gutierrez"
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 13:21:53 -0500
I was reading the complete text (where they refer to comments received
and the rationale for certain changes and inclusions)and it said that
this was inserted into the requirements. I haven't gotten to the
straight text of the regulatins to where this is included. Some day
I'll sit down and read the whole thing from start to finish - do you
supposed the FDA will send out a hard copy if we request it? Long
documents on-screen are tedious.
Hey! We can always rotate the variety of algae or weeds that we allow
to grow under our raised beds
.Emmett, you need to stop being so
logical.:>)
Adriana
> Organic farming demands crop rotation? Curious. Who rotates the
crops on
> the wild praries, desert, and our great forests?
.Emmett
| Message 14
Subject: Re: organic certification requirements
From: "TGTX"
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 14:44:48 -0500
Way to go, Emmett.
> Marketing, finally, a subject I know a little about. My tomatoes are
> grown aquaponically following all standards, that are applicable, set
forth
> by Florida Organic Growers. The store that sells my tomatoes won't put an
> organic sign on them because they aren't "certified
But, if Texas is an example for your situation, and I suspect it would be,
you can go through the whoops to get certified organic if that is what you
wish to do. If you sell all you can produce right now, and do that at a
premium price, and have no plans to get any bigger, then why bother?
I did get certified. To my knowledge, I was the only certified organic
aquaponic grower in the State of Texas. I too, got a lot of rave reviews
for the products.
So, it can be done. Or, it was at one time possible, back in 1997-98
Ted
| Message 15
Subject: Re: organic certification requirements
From: LHaver1038 'at' aol.com
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 15:51:13 EDT
I have been lurking on this list ser for a while now. I am in the process of
building an 18,000 SQ ft aquaponic project in inner city Philadelphia, PA and
have up until recentely enjoyed and learned from everyone. But recently
some, especially Ted have been using the list to proselytize their political
views.
First, let me say that I find them and the smugness they are wrapped in
scary. It is usually the "true believers", that believe they are "100%
right" and "know more" than everyone else who start the book burnings, ethnic
cleansing and genocide. Humility in expressing ones ideas and recognizing
the possibility that one could be wrong seems to me to be a must before
serious dialogue can begin.
However aside from that, I am asking Paula to decide if the list is an
appropriate place to proselytize a far right political view. If so, I would
like to sign off, If not, could we please limit our conversations to the
things that brought us to the list to begin with, trying to find a better way
to produce food.
thank you,
Lance Haver
| Message 16
Subject: RE: organic certification requirements
From: "billevans"
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 12:58:41 -0700
So if one were to proselytize a "far left" political view, you would stay
on the list?
DOnt take Ted so seriously,,, imho, he's just funnin', tho might have some
basis in fact.
-lighten up a little
billevans
who will sign off if the "far left" starts espousing their views,not
----------------
---------------
" But recently
some, especially Ted have been using the list to proselytize their political
views.
.proselytize a far right political view. If so, I would
like to sign off,
."
| Message 17
Subject: RE: organic certification requirements
From: Peggy & Emmett
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 17:10:26 -0400
At 12:58 PM 5/12/2001 -0700, billevans wrote:
> So if one were to proselytize a "far left" political view, you would stay
>on the list?
> DOnt take Ted so seriously,,, imho, he's just funnin', tho might have some
>basis in fact.
> -lighten up a little
>billevans
I'm going to proselytize some neutral political views. This should keep
everyone happy. It'll have to be some other day though. When I can think
of some.
Emmett
| Message 18
Subject: Re: organic certification requirements
From: kris book
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 15:16:35 -0600
Hey Ted,
When you're on top, there's always somebody going to try to pull you
down. I say that as long as you keep giving out more good info than
anybody else on the list, I for one, am very happy to put up with your
sense of humor. Besides, now that I know you better, your posts are
sometimes funny even when you don't mean for them to be. Now to the
point, are you speaking organically, politically or did your tongue get
stuck in your cheek again. Please don't stop being Ted.
kris
_________
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
| Message 19
Subject: Re: organic certification
From: pablo obiaga
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 19:10:17 -0300
Marc:
Beware of hard-liners. Doing research I ran into some pretty characters.
The best: I was looking for info on greenhouses and came to this
"Appropriate Technology" ONG. When the man herd "hydro
." (I didn't have a
chance to end "ponics"), his face changed. The sceen turned into a part of
the movie "Scanners", his veins were inflated.
I tried to explain that I was aware that the fosphate we lak in Uruguay
implicates shipinng by bits the Atlas mountains in northern Africa but,
Hydro is politically correct when it comes to ordinary people gainning
control of what they eat, since most of them chose not to use chemically
sinthetysed pesticides such as Ted ennumerated. (difficult to define when
the old meaning of "organic" runs into a new one for the same word.)
It was no good. So, I spent some time carefully listening to him, enough to
notice that for him, the world was divided in 2: "organic" and the rest.
"Inorganic" had come to mean anti-organic. The case is that in his mind
Ideology had taken the place of information, and had whiped out simple
inorganic chemestry, and is likelly to devolop fear if salt is presented to
him as NaCl.Remember de Dihydrogen peroxide joke we had running on the list.
Never the less, if people's control on what they eat was not correct for
him I felt that I was in the presence of a newborn petty polititian who
potentially might meet the perverted plesure of having control on what
people eat, no matter what that is, as long as he, at least, feels he
controls it, not aware or caring if he dose somebody elses dirty job along
the chain.
Yes, we sat at opposite sides of the "bureau", and our State is not yet thear.
I back your effort. Go for it, and good luck,
Pablo
P.S. "When the man herd "hydro
." ". I didn't mean anything by not
correcting the lapsus, due or not to my lausy spelling.
>
>There you go, Marc. Put on the velvet glove on the old iron fist and go for
>it. I personally wouldn't mind seeing plain old hydroponics with inorganic
>salts (CaNO3, etc) being considered "organic", if no synthetic pesticides
>such as diazinon, chlorpyrifos, etc, were used in the plant culture, but I
>then that's just me
.you won't find many organic true believers that
>would agree to that broad a definition.
>
>Good Luck, Old Chap.
>
>Ted
>
| Message 20
Subject: Mold
From: "Steven Medlock"
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 17:16:59 -0500
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0085_01C0DB07.5AD2EAC0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey everyone,
I have a mold on my tomatoes, anyone know a non chem. way of getting =
rid of it. It is only on the ones in one growing bed.=20
Steve(red)
------=_NextPart_000_0085_01C0DB07.5AD2EAC0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey everyone,
I have a mold on my tomatoes, =
anyone know=20
a non chem. way of getting rid of it. It is only on the ones =
in one=20
growing bed.
Steve(red)
------=_NextPart_000_0085_01C0DB07.5AD2EAC0--
| Message 21
Subject: Re: organic certification requirements
From: "TGTX"
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 17:44:37 -0500
> be found. Finally, I went outside and starting looking under the leaves
> of the weeds that were growing and sure enough, there were all of my
> adversaries munching on weeds. Looking back, I realized that I had only
> recently changed from making my compost haphazardly, to a traditional
> Indore method and I had also added worms and castings to my organic
> soilless planting mix. Well, I guess I'll try to speed up this thing by
> saying, I never bought anymore soap or spray. And now for my question,
> are the nutrient levels in an aquaponic system sufficient to discourage
> insects or is a constant battle the norm.
> kris
Well, Kris, I found that certain varieties of plants were subject to more
insect predation and problems than some other varieties of plants, and I
believe this has less to do with the nutrients in the growing media and more
to do with the biochemistry that the plants express due to their individual
genetics.
For example, mustards and Tat-Soi, etc, which I believe have a different
sulfur/amino acid profile than lettuces, are subject to intense aphid
attack. The mustards and the lettuce can be grown side by side in the same
grow bed, but the aphids are there sucking on the Tat Soi, Mezuna, and
Mustards.
I believe that having a wide variety of wild, native plant species growing
in borders perhaps within, and surrounding your greenhouse, will provide
native species of plant that are either 1) attractive to plant pests as food
sources or 2) havens for natural predators of your plant pests which can
control them within and around your greenhouse, or 3) combinations of 1 and
2 above.
Ted
Far Right Book Burning Genocidal Ethnic Cleanzer, with Scrubbing Bubbles, to
Eliminate that Troublesome Bathtub Ring
| Message 22
Subject: Re: organic certification requirements
From: "TGTX"
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 18:03:13 -0500
> sense of humor. Besides, now that I know you better, your posts are
> sometimes funny even when you don't mean for them to be. Now to the
> point, are you speaking organically, politically or did your tongue get
> stuck in your cheek again. Please don't stop being Ted.
>
> kris
Gee, Kris, what you just said
. makes me feel funny
. even if I don't
know why
like having a slice of baloney in each of my socks
.it makes
me feel funny
.unlike the recent missle launch from the city of brotherly
love
which amazes me
.this world and its denizens never ceases to amaze
me.
Later, dude.
Ted
| Message 23
Subject: Re: Mold
From: "TGTX"
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 18:17:10 -0500
>Hey everyone,
>I have a mold on my tomatoes, anyone know a non chem. way of getting rid
of it. It is >only on the ones in one growing bed.
>Steve(red)
Howdy, Steve (red)
Could you try a dilute hydrogen peroxide mist or compost tea spray? What
have you tried so far, Mr. Steve?
Ted
| Message 24
Subject: Re: organic certification requirements
From: Peggy & Emmett
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 19:43:01 -0400
I have a distinct feeling of family on this list.
Em
| Message 25
Subject: RE: organic certification requirements
From: "WALTER SHARRER"
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 21:36:01 -0500
POOOOR BABY --- not PC (politically correct) in YOUR OPINION .
w
> -----Original Message-----
> From: aquaponics-request 'at' townsqr.com
> [mailto:aquaponics-request 'at' townsqr.com]On Behalf Of LHaver1038 'at' aol.com
> Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 2:51 PM
> To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
> Subject: Re: organic certification requirements
>
>
> I have been lurking on this list ser for a while now. I am in
> the process of
> building an 18,000 SQ ft aquaponic project in inner city
> Philadelphia, PA and
> have up until recentely enjoyed and learned from everyone. But recently
> some, especially Ted have been using the list to proselytize
> their political
> views.
>
> First, let me say that I find them and the smugness they are
> wrapped in
> scary. It is usually the "true believers", that believe they are "100%
> right" and "know more" than everyone else who start the book
> burnings, ethnic
> cleansing and genocide. Humility in expressing ones ideas and
> recognizing
> the possibility that one could be wrong seems to me to be a must before
> serious dialogue can begin.
>
> However aside from that, I am asking Paula to decide if the
> list is an
> appropriate place to proselytize a far right political view. If
> so, I would
> like to sign off, If not, could we please limit our conversations to the
> things that brought us to the list to begin with, trying to find
> a better way
> to produce food.
>
> thank you,
>
> Lance Haver
>
|
