Aquaponics Digest - Sun 07/15/01

If this stuff is half as good as they claim, it will save a bunch of= =20 cash. I spent a couple of hours just browsing through this place.

http://www.= jademountain.com/heatcool/supertherm.html

Does anyone have any first hand knowledge on the paulownia tree?&= nbsp;=20

http://www.= jademountain.com/FarmRanch?paulownia.html=20

----__JNP_000_3143.36d4.6da2-- | Message 2 Subject: RE:Paulownia . Radiant barrier: From: "billevans" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 02:19:56 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. =_NextPart_000_0019_01C10CD4.A3D96CE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone have any first hand knowledge on the paulownia tree? [billevans] Have 600 trees. What cha wanna know? =_NextPart_000_0019_01C10CD4.A3D96CE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Does anyone have any first hand knowledge on the paulownia = tree? =20
[billevans] Have 600 trees. = What cha=20 wanna know?

=_NextPart_000_0019_01C10CD4.A3D96CE0-- | Message 3 Subject: Re: dealing with solids From: Bill Patrick Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 09:07:59 -0400 Ron, I didn't quite get a picture of your 3 sump design from your description in my mind. A diagram would be great if you wouldn't mind sending it to me. Also I'd would like to see the picture of your Koi pond. Maybe Ada or I could post the diagram and picture on a page for all on the list to see. Thanks, Bill Patrick wcp 'at' zb.net Ron Brooks wrote: > > Pete > > well > > if you look at tom and Paula's web page were they show a diagram of their > design > > I di something similar > > I have a pump going from the Koi pond into a 3 by 8 gravel bed > Now I changed it yesterday after cleaning all the green stuff out > > so now it is a continually wet bed that has water flowing through it to > within an 1/2 inch of the surface of the gravel constantly. I replumped it > to discharge water at one end that has a settling area free of pea gravel > now then the water flows through the gravel to the end where an old screen > holds back the gravel from the water fall area and also traps any large > particles making it past the gravel. Now instead of planting it with lettuce > and such as I originally did I replaced it with bog and marsh pond plants > that will act as my biofilter . I decided I would like flowers there around > the pond more than veggies > > actually I did take a picture of that one and can send it to you if you like > > once again as with most of my first trials this is made with salvage > material as I like to experiment with a lot of differing systems to find one > I like. > > Ron > The One Who Walks Two Paths > > -> -----Original Message----- > -> From: aquaponics-request 'at' townsqr.com > -> [mailto:aquaponics-request 'at' townsqr.com]On Behalf Of Pete and Diana > -> Scholtens > -> Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 10:54 AM > -> To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com > -> Subject: RE: dealing with solids > -> > -> > -> Ron, second question. Could you elaborate a little more on your > -> statement "I > -> set up a system like S&S describes for my Koi pond"? > -> > -> Thanks. > -> Pete > -> Langley, BC > -> > -> | Message 4 Subject: Re: bee moth larvae From: fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 08:38:53 -0500 (CDT) Thank you Mark that is use full Bruce | Message 5 Subject: Re: Any Questions out there ??? From: fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 09:20:31 -0500 (CDT) Robby Richards you can start asking questions any time now. What do you want to learn about in Aquaponics? We can't answer a question that has not been asked. Its some sort of rule I think! Other wise we Oraceles get bored and start to get of topic a bit to keep awake. Note in the last few days the posts from this list average about 8 per day and its the only list I am on Bruce | Message 6 Subject: Re: Fwd. Introduction and Thanks From: fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 09:43:42 -0500 (CDT) Miriam your green house with the block wall on the north side should function fine just make sure that the block wall is well insulated and that on the inside its painted white to reflect light back into the grow area .I assume that this green house shares a wall with your home so you can use the greenhouse to help to heat your home in the winter saving you a lot of money at current power prices. And that the fish tanks are below the grow beds using the same space twice. Maybe even in the ground to act as a heat sink storage area .Am I right? Bruce | Message 7 Subject: Re: Paulownia . Radiant barrier: From: kris book Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 08:48:12 -0600 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_2645.31c0.28d4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill, 1. If you had it to do over again, would you purchase 600 trees? 2. Do they grow at the advertised rate? 3. Do you think they will winter well in Southern Colorado? 4. How many years until they grow flowers? 5. Do the flowers taste good? 5. Do your animals like to eat the leaves? 6. Have you seen a stump regenerate itself? 7. Have you made anything from the wood? Thanks in advance, kris On Sun, 15 Jul 2001 02:19:56 -0700 "billevans" writes: Does anyone have any first hand knowledge on the paulownia tree? [billevans] Have 600 trees. What cha wanna know? ----__JNP_000_2645.31c0.28d4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Bill,

1. If you had it to do over again, would you purchase 600=20 trees?

2. Do they grow at the advertised rate?

3. Do you think they will winter well in Southern Colorado?

4. How many years until they grow flowers?

5. Do the flowers taste good?

5. Do your animals like to eat the leaves?

6. Have you seen a stump regenerate itself?

7. Have you made anything from the wood?

Thanks in advance,

kris

On Sun, 15 Jul 2001 02:19:56 -0700 "billevans" <williamevans 'at' home.com> writes:=

Does anyone have any first hand knowledge on the paulownia=20 tree?
[billevans] Have 600 trees. = What cha=20 wanna know?

----__JNP_000_2645.31c0.28d4-- | Message 8 Subject: Re: Any Questions out there ??? From: kris book Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 09:01:16 -0600 Bruce, You need more lists. I am on 8 or 9, I can't remember which. You can contact me privately if you want to know about some good lists. Hey Mike, I'd like to know about any good ones that I'm unaware of. kris krisbook 'at' juno.com | Message 9 Subject: Re: Question? From: fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 10:02:39 -0500 (CDT) Whats lateral thinking and vertical thinking this stumped me Bruce | Message 10 Subject: Re: Question? From: marc 'at' aculink.net Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 09:06:01 -0600 I think lateral has something to do with leach fields and vertical is what ladder to buy? :) Marc Bruce Schreiber wrote: > > Whats lateral thinking and vertical thinking this stumped me > Bruce | Message 11 Subject: Africa Question From: fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 10:13:01 -0500 (CDT) Margi what water temps do you get in your high veld fish tanks does veld mean field , meadow or high country Bruce | Message 12 Subject: RE: Paulownia .From: "billevans" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 08:22:55 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. =_NextPart_000_0005_01C10D07.58F11010 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Paulownia . Radiant barrier: Bill, 1. If you had it to do over again, would you purchase 600 trees? [billevans] yes 2. Do they grow at the advertised rate? [billevans] yes 3. Do you think they will winter well in Southern Colorado? [billevans] At tenthoussand feet in Teluride? No I think can take down to zone 5 . will top kill but will sprout back from the roots everyspring "Paulownia can adapt to a wide range of temperatures. The northern limit of species distribution approximately coincides with the mean January isotherm of -5oC (Fig. 25). The absolute lowest temperature is around -20oC. With regard to altitude, most of P. farbesii trees are seen around 1,000 m where the lowest temperature is around -10oC. Different Paulownia species have different reactions to low temperatures. Several species of Paulownia were introduced into Beijing in the spring of 1976. Through the winter of 1976 (lowest temperature -16oC), majority of the P. tomentosa saplings were free from frost injury; those of P. elongate and P. catalpifolia which were on sunny side suffered slight frost injury. The above ground parts of P. taiwaniana and P. kawakamii suffered serious frost injury and all the trees of P. fargesii died. The trees of P. fortunei introduced from Guangzhou and Hongzhou (22 - 30oN) provinces. to Beijing died but those from Nanjing (32oN) suffered less serious frost injury. All the seedlings of P. fargesii in Beijing probably died because this species is adapted to the cold and moist climate of the high mountains but could not adapt to the very dry and cold winter in north central China (Table 9)." http://www.idrc.ca/library/document/071235/071235e.htm#1. 4. How many years until they grow flowers? [billevans] three or you can force the first season w/ fert.>>>ie ." super bloom" formulations 5. Do the flowers taste good?[billevans] dunno 5. Do your animals like to eat the leaves?[billevans] ya , fer shure 6. Have you seen a stump regenerate itself?[billevans] That's it's best trick! My second tree grew from a cutting that was ignored the frist year . grew to 8 feet .I physically bent that down to ground level and broke it). . the following growing season it sprouted past twenty feet. 7. Have you made anything from the wood?[billevans] a couple blanks to show local mills . they'd never seen it It mills very easily qand is strong for it's weight [billevans] It's the density of balsa,,, fire retardant,,, twice the insulating value of most woods,,,, dries very easily w/o checking splitting, warping ,cupping, etc . very dimensionally stable w/ changes in moisture content . best of all lwoods I think, doesnt rot in grond contact( P coffins have been unearthed in China - hundreds of years old . no rot. bille zone 10 san diego , ca =_NextPart_000_0005_01C10D07.58F11010 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Subject: Re: Paulownia . Radiant=20 barrier:

Bill,

1. If you had it to do over again, would you purchase 600=20 trees?
[billevans] yes
=

2. Do they grow at the advertised rate?
[billevans] yes
=

3. Do you think they will winter well in Southern Colorado? =
[billevans] At tenthoussand feet in = Teluride?=20 No I think can take down to zone 5 . will top kill but will = sprout back=20 from the roots everyspring

"Paulownia can adapt to a wide range of = temperatures.=20 The northern limit of species distribution approximately coincides = with the=20 mean January isotherm of -5ºC (Fig. 25). The absolute lowest = temperature is=20 around -20ºC. With regard to altitude, most of P. farbesii trees = are seen=20 around 1,000 m where the lowest temperature is around -10ºC. = Different=20 Paulownia species have different reactions to low temperatures. = Several=20 species of Paulownia were introduced into Beijing in the spring = of=20 1976. Through the winter of 1976 (lowest temperature -16ºC), = majority of the=20 P. tomentosa saplings were free from frost injury; those of = P.=20 elongate and P. catalpifolia which were on sunny side = suffered=20 slight frost injury. The above ground parts of P. taiwaniana = and P.=20 kawakamii suffered serious frost injury and all the trees of P. = fargesii died. The trees of P. fortunei introduced from = Guangzhou=20 and Hongzhou (22 - 30ºN) provinces. to Beijing died but those = from Nanjing=20 (32ºN) suffered less serious frost injury. All the seedlings of = P.=20 fargesii in Beijing probably died because this species is adapted = to the=20 cold and moist climate of the high mountains but could not adapt to = the very=20 dry and cold winter in north central China (Table = 9)."

http://= www.idrc.ca/library/document/071235/071235e.htm#1.

4. How many years until they grow = flowers?
[billevans] three or you can force the = first=20 season w/ fert.>>>ie ." super bloom" formulations=20

5. Do the flowers taste good?[billevans] dunno

5. Do your animals like to eat the leaves?[billevans] ya ,=20 fer shure

6. Have you seen a stump regenerate itself?[billevans] That's it's=20 best trick! My second tree grew from a cutting that was = ignored=20 the frist year . grew to 8 feet .I physically bent that down to = ground level=20 and broke it).

. the following growing = season it=20 sprouted past twenty feet.

7. Have you made anything from the wood?[billevans] a couple=20 blanks to show local mills . they'd never seen = it

It=20 mills very easily qand is strong for it's weight

[billevans] It's the density of balsa,,, fire = retardant,,,=20 twice the insulating value of most woods,,,, dries very easily w/o = checking=20 splitting, warping ,cupping, etc . very dimensionally stable w/ = changes in=20 moisture content . best of all lwoods I think, doesnt rot in=20 grond contact( P coffins have been unearthed in China - hundreds = of years=20 old . no rot .

bille

zone=20 10 san diego , ca

=_NextPart_000_0005_01C10D07.58F11010-- | Message 13 Subject: Re: off topic Shark message From: fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 10:34:22 -0500 (CDT) Margi I believe that water temps are the reason for your fish to get dormant and when they warmed up they went back on feed. If it happens again always remove the uneaten feed after 5 minutes to prevent water fouling and loss of your fish. Is there some kind of edible bottom feeding fish available to you to raise with your Tilapias in a policulture? You seem to be a European so could you except Israeli mirror carp as a table fish to eat or sell? In the US there is an unreasonable stigma attached to them Bruce | Message 14 Subject: Teds CD From: fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 10:37:35 -0500 (CDT) Ted put me on the list for on of your CDs Bruce | Message 15 Subject: Cold water crabs (was Re: Any Questions out there ???) From: Lynn Wigglesworth Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 11:36:45 -0400 At 09:20 AM 7/15/2001 -0500, Bruce Schreiber wrote: >Robby Richards you can start asking questions any time now. What do you >want to learn about in Aquaponics? We can't answer a question that has >not been asked. Its some sort of rule I think! Well I have a question! I'm new to the list (and aquaponics). In fact, I'm still in the research and 'thinking about it' stage. I'm thinking about warm water species like tilapia and/or redclaw crayfish. For right now it would be a hobby with a tank in a greenhouse, but it could expand into a business if it works out. If it ends up costing too much to heat the greenhouse and tank through the winter, I'd like to have some colder water species as a Plan B. I grew up eating blue-claw crabs, and can't get them here (in northern Pennsylvania). I can't find much info on raising cold-water crabs in tanks or where to get the stock. I know they can live in a brackish (not strictly salt water) environment. Is it not feasible? Or am I on to an untapped market niche? Lynn Wigglesworth Peasant Farmer Tioga County, PA | Message 16 Subject: RE: Question? From: "Mark Allen Wells" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 10:49:24 -0500 Bruce, I found this funny example .basically it is a creative way to think. Vertical the way we normal think and solve things I believe. One creative tool I always had fun with was mind maps. Start with a main subject in the center and from there, draw lateral lines outward like spokes in a wheel and connect them to anything imaginable .-- Edward de Bono writes in "Serious Creativity", how he became interested in the sort of thinking that computers could not do: creative and perceptual thinking. The entry in the Concise Oxford Dictionary reads: "seeking to solve problems by unorthodox or apparently illogical methods. Lateral thinking is about moving sideways when working on a problem to try different perceptions, different concepts and different points of entry. The term covers a variety of methods including provocations to get us out of the usual line of thought. Lateral thinking is cutting across patterns in a self-organizing system, and has very much to do with perception. For example: Granny is sitting knitting and three year old Susan is upsetting Granny by playing with the wool. One parent suggests putting Susan into the playpen. The other parent suggests it might be a better idea to put Granny in the playpen to protect her from Susan. A lateral answer! -- mark ---- Whats lateral thinking and vertical thinking this stumped me Bruce | Message 17 Subject: RE: Paulownia .From: "Mark Allen Wells" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 10:53:55 -0500 Bille, your posts are in html .I know paula gets tired of asking us to use plain text because html causes problems .do her favor and change it, OK? Mark | Message 18 Subject: Marine aquaponics From: "Robby Richards" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 09:12:53 -0700 =_NextPart_001_0001_01C10D0E.54068060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bruce, you have more stamina than I since you can find yourself bored and= in need of questions with your work schedule .re: "I am working long ho= urs lately mostly 18 to 20 hrs per day". I see you have already gotten on= e question, so here is another that should tide you over for awhile. What are your experiences, and recomendations regarding marine aquaponics= in brackish water? Here in Southwestern Arizona, we have ample geotherma= l wells spitting out 120 degree water with ultra high mineral content. Se= veral fish farms have attempted to utilize this natural resource in the p= ast and have failed. I am attempting to learn from the mistakes of the pa= st in hopes of not repeating them. I hope to begin experiments with several marine species to see if I can d= evelop niche products as Lynn Wigglesworth had mentioned in her post. Fur= ther to her post, has anyone ever worked with any of the many freshwater = crab species? I never knew that there were so many varieties until last m= onth when I read an article in a magazine-Aquaria I think it was. The man= y species the article talked about all seemed to be runts and probably no= t much commercial potential for table fare. Anyone know of edible freshwa= ter crabs a little larger? The University of Arizona has done extensive research into Salcornia (Sp.= ?) production in Mexico and other areas. I understand from their researc= h that the crop can be utilized for many uses from animal feed (cows love= d the salty taste) to oil production from the seeds. I am also attempting= to find out if there are other potential plants for cash crops that grow= in brackish water. Anyone know of a salt water tolerant Bamboo or other = woody plant? Hope this keeps you occupied for awhile Bruce. Thanks for sharing your kn= owledge. Robby =_NextPart_001_0001_01C10D0E.54068060 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Bruce, you hav= e more stamina than I since you can find yourself bored and in need of qu= estions with your work schedule .re: "I am working long hours lately mos= tly 18 to 20 hrs per day". I see you have already gotten one question, so= here is another that should tide you over for awhile.

<= /DIV>

What are your experiences, and recomendations regarding marine= aquaponics in brackish water? Here in Southwestern Arizona, we have ampl= e geothermal wells spitting out 120 degree water with ultra high mineral = content. Several fish farms have attempted to utilize this natural resour= ce in the past and have failed. I am attempting to learn from the mistake= s of the past in hopes of not repeating them.

I hope to begin experiments with several marine species to see if I can= develop niche products as Lynn Wigglesworth had mentioned in her post. Further to her post, has = anyone ever worked with any of the many freshwater crab species? I never = knew that there were so many varieties until last month when I read an ar= ticle in a magazine-Aquaria I think it was. The many species the article = talked about all seemed to be runts and probably not much commercial pote= ntial for table fare. Anyone know of edible freshwater crabs a little lar= ger?

The University of Arizona has done extensive r= esearch into Salcornia (Sp. ?) production in Mexico and other areas. I un= derstand from their research that the crop can be utilized for many uses = from animal feed (cows loved the salty taste) to oil production from= the seeds. I am also attempting to find out if there are other potential= plants for cash crops that grow in brackish water. Anyone know of a salt= water tolerant Bamboo or other woody plant?

Hope this keeps you occupied for awhile Bruce. Thanks for sharing your k= nowledge.

Robby

=_NextPart_001_0001_01C10D0E.54068060-- | Message 19 Subject: Re: Paulownia .From: kris book Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 10:21:42 -0600 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_5e41.5c80.204c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill, You wrote will top kill but will sprout back from the roots every spring Can you please expand on this. I don't understand how the tree ends up 80 feet tall. And please tell what is the average stump diameter of a mature tree. kris ----__JNP_000_5e41.5c80.204c Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Bill,

You wrote will top kill but will sprout back from the roots every= =20 spring

Can you please expand on this. I don't understand how the tree ends up= 80=20 feet tall. And please tell what is the average stump diameter of a mature=20 tree.

kris

----__JNP_000_5e41.5c80.204c-- | Message 20 Subject: RE: Paulownia .From: "billevans" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 09:21:16 -0700 Hmmmmm that's funny,,, I typed out some text, threw in a link and disdane others who send html . never had this complaint b4 . Im using MS outlook 2000 I checked under "format menu" only "plain text" is enabled.HTML is disabled( and was, when I sent my reply). What's up?. 'Cause I don't know bille .Bille, your posts are in html. | Message 21 Subject: RE: Paulownia .From: "billevans" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 09:21:18 -0700 -----Original Message----- From: aquaponics-request 'at' townsqr.com [mailto:aquaponics-request 'at' townsqr.com]On Behalf Of billevans Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2001 8:23 AM To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com Subject: RE: Paulownia . Subject: Re: Paulownia . Radiant barrier: Bill, 1. If you had it to do over again, would you purchase 600 trees? [billevans] yes 2. Do they grow at the advertised rate? [billevans] yes 3. Do you think they will winter well in Southern Colorado? [billevans] At tenthoussand feet in Teluride? No I think can take down to zone 5 . will top kill but will sprout back from the roots everyspring "Paulownia can adapt to a wide range of temperatures. The northern limit of species distribution approximately coincides with the mean January isotherm of -5oC (Fig. 25). The absolute lowest temperature is around -20oC. With regard to altitude, most of P. farbesii trees are seen around 1,000 m where the lowest temperature is around -10oC. Different Paulownia species have different reactions to low temperatures. Several species of Paulownia were introduced into Beijing in the spring of 1976. Through the winter of 1976 (lowest temperature -16oC), majority of the P. tomentosa saplings were free from frost injury; those of P. elongate and P. catalpifolia which were on sunny side suffered slight frost injury. The above ground parts of P. taiwaniana and P. kawakamii suffered serious frost injury and all the trees of P. fargesii died. The trees of P. fortunei introduced from Guangzhou and Hongzhou (22 - 30oN) provinces. to Beijing died but those from Nanjing (32oN) suffered less serious frost injury. All the seedlings of P. fargesii in Beijing probably died because this species is adapted to the cold and moist climate of the high mountains but could not adapt to the very dry and cold winter in north central China (Table 9)." http://www.idrc.ca/library/document/071235/071235e.htm#1.4. How many years until they grow flowers? [billevans] three or you can force the first season w/ fert.>>>ie ." super bloom" formulations 5. Do the flowers taste good?[billevans] dunno 5. Do your animals like to eat the leaves?[billevans] ya , fer shure 6. Have you seen a stump regenerate itself?[billevans] That's it's best trick! My second tree grew from a cutting that was ignored the frist year . grew to 8 feet .I physically bent that down to ground level and broke it). . the following growing season it sprouted past twenty feet. 7. Have you made anything from the wood?[billevans] a couple blanks to show local mills . they'd never seen it It mills very easily qand is strong for it's weight [billevans] It's the density of balsa,,, fire retardant,,, twice the insulating value of most woods,,,, dries very easily w/o checking splitting, warping ,cupping, etc . very dimensionally stable w/ changes in moisture content . best of all lwoods I think, doesnt rot in grond contact( P coffins have been unearthed in China - hundreds of years old . no rot. bille zone 10 san diego , ca | Message 22 Subject: RE: Paulownia .From: "billevans" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 09:34:04 -0700 Ok, first,,,, cant' seem to keep plain text enabled,,, sorry for the HTML.this post shoiuld be ok. the tree will end up tall if not winterkilled you can'tgrow an 80 foot P. tree in zone 5, best you can do is to get it to shrub out every year.\ average stump diameter???? that's like an "average soil" hehe . Ive seen pics of two foot dia trees . at ten years which is kinda min. harvest time -would say foot and a half. my three yrold tree has a 6" caliper and is pushing 35 feet high . again zone 10 very temperate here in san diego. check out these P.links http://www.idrc.ca/library/document/071235/index_e.html#toc http://www.paulowniatrees.com./ http://www.tropicalpaulownia.com/index.html http://www.paulowniatrees.com.au/Growing.htm http://www.paulowniatrees.com.au/Photo.htm Bill, You wrote will top kill but will sprout back from the roots every spring Can you please expand on this. I don't understand how the tree ends up 80 feet tall. And please tell what is the average stump diameter of a mature tree. kris | Message 23 Subject: Re: Paulownia .From: marc 'at' aculink.net Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 10:43:53 -0600 they're fine. you're doing text. marc billevans wrote: > > Hmmmmm that's funny,,, I typed out some text, threw in a link and > disdane others who send html . never had this complaint b4 . Im using MS > outlook 2000 I checked under "format menu" only "plain text" is enabled.> HTML is disabled( and was, when I sent my reply). > What's up?.> 'Cause I don't know > bille > .> Bille, > > your posts are in html. | Message 24 Subject: Outlook, Virus, Paulownia Qs, Greenhouse From: "Ada Erickson" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 10:00:48 -0700 Users of Outlook may need to alter some settings when editing directly in the body of a received message. As you can see, the inserted text is tagged [username], and for those of us who can see HTML, the inserted text is blue. I have fixed this for many people, but I don't have outlook available to me at this moment so I apologize my inability to offer complete instructions. I do know that there are 2-3 options that need to be edited/disabled in the options or preferences menus in order to alter this. I would imagine that the call for blue text overrides the manual selection of plain text. Who knows? The world of Microsoft products are a mystery. On the topic of the virus - I did not open it, but every morning I get a strange email with an attachment with a random letter arrangement for a title. I sent it off to Symantec and they said it was the same virus. Has anyone had this experience, and how do you get it to stop? On the topic of Paulownia- This stuff sounds amazing. I have a couple questions: 1. Is there a commercially used term for the wood? Is it used in a widespread number of applications, or not yet well known? 2. What is the primary purpose for growing this tree? On the amazing $150 greenhouse; Did anyone look at the plans and uncover any flaws or suggestions? Do you have any tips or tricks to make this more specifically friendly to hydroponics? Thanks always for your advice. Ada Erickson www.primadonnasrevenge.com ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2001 9:43 AM Subject: Re: Paulownia . > they're fine. you're doing text. > > marc > > billevans wrote: > > > > Hmmmmm that's funny,,, I typed out some text, threw in a link and > > disdane others who send html . never had this complaint b4 . Im using MS > > outlook 2000 I checked under "format menu" only "plain text" is enabled.> > HTML is disabled( and was, when I sent my reply). > > What's up?.> > 'Cause I don't know > > bille > > .> > Bille, > > > > your posts are in html.> | Message 25 Subject: RE: Question? From: fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 12:08:58 -0500 (CDT) Now I get it. Being heavily Dyslexic from childhood Lateral was the only way that I learned any thing! I could not read until about age 16 and only looked at pictures not having a clue as to what I was supposed to do. And than one day it came to me and I read a book a day for most of my life since. I read anything on any subject and think about it when I sleep and sort of frankinstine it all together in my own way of off beat way of thinking and solving. The Ancient Sumerian wrightings for instance have Aquaponic references for the first angel king of Earth EA (which meant his house is water) .Earth (which meant far away home) . He was given earth and was titled as ENKI( which meant Lord of Earth) or (lord of far away home)and he is still worshipped today by the Watutsi in Africa as ENGI the sky water god and in The Andis another (Aquaculture based culture) to the Incas the title INCA meant Lord of Earth .I better stop ramblings Bruce | Message 26 Subject: Re: Marine aquaponics From: fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 13:04:05 -0500 (CDT) Robby now your talking Oh by the way I am off today and starting on Wednesday I will be off on wednesdays to so I can get to see my wife and answer these posts more often First go to the GARF website and see what they can do with Geothermal water .They do a good and PROFITABLE job with their Coral farm.Call Leroy Garf and talk to him he is very approachable and open to questions . He will probably help you set up . Arlos is looking at Geothermal as we speak so when he comes back on maybe we can get him to report on it .I take it that you live in the heavily Mormon South Eastern Arizona in the San Pedro river drainage because of all of the hot springs there . Have you gotten a water analyses yet and if so what was the mineral content Could you grow say giant clams for export? Coral to ship to city markets? Soon very soon all coral importation will be outlawed and captive growers will set the price. This could be you! What do you know about Salt water? Are you experienced as a hobbyist or will you just hire some one like Arlos or Ted? I will be using mangroves as nitrate sinks and would also like to know about veggie crops that I can grow in salt water. Bruce | Message 27 Subject: RE: Iron in fish water ? From: "Chris Jeppesen" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 12:27:11 -0700 Bert When my system was new I added IRONITE to the fish tank with no illeffect to the gold fish and Koi. but you can just put some nails down where it is wet in your grow beds and wait. Chris Jeppesen Iron in fish water >Does anyone have any experience in a suggestion for an Iron Source that may >be added to the fish tank water without causing problems with the Tilapia ? | Message 28 Subject: RE: Iron in fish water ? From: Peggy & Emmett Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 16:03:48 -0400 At 12:27 PM 7/15/2001 -0700, you wrote: >Bert >When my system was new I added IRONITE to the fish tank with no illeffect to the gold fish and Koi. but you can just put some nails down where it is wet in your grow beds and wait. >Chris Jeppesen > I wouldn't use Ironite. It's a byproduct of the mining industry in Arizona and has been shown to contain heavy metals. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/health-science/html98/fchar_051798.html Scroll down the list. Arsenic and cadmium come up first so you'll have to scroll down to see nickel, lead, mercury, moly, and zinc. It's for this reason I counsel people not to use either Ironite or Milorganite( a product of Milwaukee sewer sludge) in the garden or around their fruit trees. Emmett | Message 29 Subject: Re: Tomato plant question From: "gutierrez-lagatta" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 15:09:40 -0500 Andrei, The process is calkled "suckering" as in "pruning the suckers off of the plants". The Mississippi State University Haqnddbook is excellent and provides specifics. See it at http://msucares.com/pubs/pub1828.htm > Andrei you need to train your tomatoes to single stalks to get the most > fruit from them .Basically you have a main stalk with leaf stalks coming > out of it alternating side to side .From each leaf joint after the leaf > stalk grows out also develop 2 more buds 1 fruiting bud the top one and > 1 branching bud the bottom one you remove the branching bud to keep the > plant from growing to large and promoting fruit growth | Message 30 Subject: CD's From: wylie bass Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 16:01:52 -0500 Ted
If you have extra CD's and they are not to expensive I'd love to have one. Wylie

| Message 31 Subject: RE: Outlook, Virus, Paulownia Qs, Greenhouse From: "billevans" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 14:15:10 -0700 >>>>Users of Outlook . I figurred it out Aparently "outlook 2000" toggles backk and forth btwn html an plain text format depending on what the format of the last email read was. Duh ,now i know that the change in color of text whne reply means html.solly On the topic of Paulownia- >>>>>This stuff sounds amazing. Yup, do you think i have enuf trees to fill out this 15,000 ft^2 Lets see ,,600 trees on 1/3 acre leaves a spacing of.:> >>>>> . I have a couple questions: 1. Is there a commercially used term for the wood? Paulownia, basically,,, some species called "dragon tree" i think common name for all in the genus is empress tree seven or eight major specie and many clones off of them-grown for their different plumage, mainly. Is it used in a widespread number of applications, or not yet well known? "reputedly". IT is widely grown in the Orient , and has 4,000 years of documented history. Its strength to weight ratio, and ease of milling makes it very suitable for furniture( and surfboards, model airplanes, ultralight composite aircraft, certain compressive components in scaffolding, and "drumroll" log home construction( remember the insulating value of the wood) 2. What is the primary purpose for growing this tree? For me, right now( i winging it) it's purely entertainment( that will develop into the requirement for a sawmill((( at least))))ugh( and cerratinly more land) For others, it's plywood filler, or companies that set up plantations . several that give you the authority to call yourself a P. grower(( just sign over some duckets$$$$)) Costa RIca seems hot for this as well as Australia., ."select" old growth WIDE board lumber for fine furniture Did I mention it mills very well and looks good to boot? . it is tecnically considerd a lightweight "hardwood", tho it is softer than most when looking at physical "surface hardness" of the wood . makes great wood for stringed instruments a picture of a display cabinet amde of Paulownia wood made by a craftsman none other than President Jimmy Carter,,, someone boought it from the Carter Center for 230,000$US http://www.paulownia.com/auction.html bird perches, compost aerators, "pins" to hold the pile to gether, walking sticks, flowers for florists, and asthma concoctions,,,,its in the link by the chinese academy foresters that i provided earlier . lots of good forage when coppiced, and lucky for me - doesnt seem to be attractive to gophers.be | Message 32 Subject: RE: Outlook, Virus, Paulownia Qs, Greenhouse From: Peggy & Emmett Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 17:37:04 -0400 At 02:15 PM 7/15/2001 -0700, you wrote: >>>>>Users of Outlook .> > I figurred it out Aparently "outlook 2000" toggles backk and forth btwn >html an plain text format depending on what the format of the last email >read was. > I can't stand outlook. Try Eudora Lite. Its free. Emmett http://www.eudora.com/ | Message 33 Subject: Re: Virus Update From: S & S Aqua Farm Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 17:10:39 -0500 At 06:23 AM 07/14/2001 -0700, Ada wrote: >Robert Rogers received the email too. > >Therefore, the virus is coming from someone on the list. > >Please check your computers. Removal instructions are available at the link >I previously posted. Ada - the virus you mentioned later with the random letters in the .exe attachment, as I remember, comes not from a message sent to the list, but are sent to the originator of a message in the unread email box of a recipient (list member or private email). I just received one after posting a message to the tilapia group, and it had happened before on a genealogy list to which I belong. Yes, everyone should do a virus check on their computer often, even with a virus program in place. But the HAHAHA virus is not necessarily coming from someone on this list -- it's too random, and I haven't seen it tied to any one person's postings. If you can track it, I'd be glad to address this to the individual involved. Problem is, most of our email addresses are logged many places on the internet -- it could be coming from so many places. Since Bruce only subscribes to this list, perhaps it is our problem. But, Bruce, is your webtv address accessible through any of the search registry's? Could be that as well. Paula S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124 Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/ | Message 34 Subject: Re: Iron in fish water ? From: Bertmcl 'at' aol.com Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 18:15:41 EDT Thanks for the replies. that what makes this list so GREAT. Bert | Message 35 Subject: Random letter virus for Ada - Re: Outlook, Virus, Paulownia Qs, Greenhouse From: S & S Aqua Farm Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 17:18:21 -0500 At 10:00 AM 07/15/2001 -0700, Ada wrote: >On the topic of the virus - I did not open it, but every morning I get a >strange email with an attachment with a random letter arrangement for a >title. I sent it off to Symantec and they said it was the same virus. Has >anyone had this experience, and how do you get it to stop? If it's there every morning, could it be tied to a list for which you receive only the digest version? I know you are more computer proficient than I am, but that's where I'd look first. Paula S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124 Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/ | Message 36 Subject: Re: Southern Greenhouse Vegetable Growers Association Meeting From: S & S Aqua Farm Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 17:27:11 -0500 At 11:33 AM 07/11/2001 -0400,Robert Rogers wrote: >How about taping your presentation & burning a few cd's? >I would be glad to pay your costs and time. I don't know that they have the capability for doing this at the conference, but they generally do sell a book of proceedings after each annual meeting. I'm sure Ted will know when he returns. Keep in mind that Ted is probably just now returning home. I've received one comment on his presentation: > >Ted did a great job!!! It was a little rocky getting started because of >some equipment problems and he was nervous but did GREAT. I heard one woman >say she took more notes of Ted than the rest of the day combined! Sounds as if he represented us well! Good going Ted!! Look forward to a report. Paula S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124 Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/ | Message 37 Subject: Re: CD's From: kris book Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 15:46:27 -0600 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_1142.2ac5.5cba Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ted, Since you seem to have begun a new career, I want one, even at retail prices. kris ----__JNP_000_1142.2ac5.5cba Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ted,

Since you seem to have begun a new career, I want one, even at retail= =20 prices.

kris

----__JNP_000_1142.2ac5.5cba-- | Message 38 Subject: Activate short range sensor scan!! From: "billevans" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 16:39:32 -0700 http://housecall.antivirus.com/pc_housecall/ --Trend Micro's " House Call" - virus scan software-- I highly recommend a visit to the above link! be | Message 39 Subject: outlook express From: "Robert Rogers" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 19:45:10 -0400 If you go to the tools at the top of screen then go to options, then the send tab, uncheck; reply in format message was sent, and outlook will stop changing your format. | Message 40 Subject: RE: Iron in fish water ? From: "Mark Allen Wells" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 19:04:10 -0500 Ferrous sulfate is an my fish pellets and the iron supplements for people I saw at wal-mart. Not sure about dosage though. Mark | Message 41 Subject: RE: Outlook From: "Mark Allen Wells" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 19:12:37 -0500 Bille, I had the same problem when I started on the list. My settings were for plain text when sending an original note, but when I hit reply it was in html for some reason. Then I found the switch for it under the format button .all is well .lol. mark ---- >>>>Users of Outlook . I figurred it out Aparently "outlook 2000" toggles backk and forth btwn html an plain text format depending on what the format of the last email read was. Duh ,now i know that the change in color of text whne reply means html.solly On the topic of Paulownia- >>>>>This stuff sounds amazing. Yup, do you think i have enuf trees to fill out this 15,000 ft^2 Lets see ,,600 trees on 1/3 acre leaves a spacing of.:> | Message 42 Subject: Re: Marine aquaponics From: "Robby Richards" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 17:21:25 -0700 =_NextPart_001_0007_01C10D52.936C1D20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I take it that you live in the heavily Mormon South Eastern Arizona in t= he San Pedro river drainage because of all of the hot springs there . Actually I am talking about the Southwestern part of AZ along the Gila Ri= ver Basin from Gila Bend, AZ west towards Yuma, AZ. Have you gotten a water analyses yet and if so what was the mineral conte= nt? Could you grow say giant clams for export? Coral to ship to city mark= ets? =20 I am attempting to find more data on wells in the area. I have data on te= mps, etc. but not mineral content as yet I know that the Total Dissolved = Solids (TDS) levels are off the scale for human consumption in many of th= e areas surrounding Gila Bend, Arizona. Also the Flouride levels are at o= r exceeding toxic levels to humans. Are fish affected in the same way as = humans by high Flouride concentrations? TSD levels have been sampled at 9= 00 mg/l to about 5,000 mg/l in 1979 (Sebenik, 1981). Flouride levels rang= ed from 0.5 to 6.2 mg/l. Water temperatures range from 105 degrees near H= yder, AZ west of Gila Bend, to 167 degrees F from just north of Gila Bend= in Perryville, AZ. I am searching the United States Geological Survey, A= rizona Department of Water Resources, and other sites to try and find wat= er sample data. Anyone know of other sites for water quality data? I migh= t just go out there and pull some samples from several farmer's irrigatio= n canals, etc. and have them analyzed as well. Any suggestions on the lea= st expensive solution to have water samples analyzed for mineral content? =20 What do you know about Salt water? Are you experienced as a hobbyist or= will you just hire some one like Arlos or Ted? I only have basic knowledge of salt water systems. I am positioning my bu= siness as a mid sized commercial operation and thus intend to hire an exp= ert in the field for at least an ongoing consulting post if not a full-ti= me farm operations manager. As a life long entrepreneur and small busines= s owner, I am delegating the technical details to someone strong in those= skills while freeing me to do what I do best, i.e. marketing and sales o= f my crops. I will be using mangroves as nitrate sinks and would also like to kn= ow about veggie crops that I can grow in salt water. I had not thought of Mangrove forests as an option. With our 300 plus day= s of sunshine out here and plenty of available water, I bet that they wou= ld grow well here. I appreciate the suggestion and will research potentia= l commercial uses for the lumber, etc. from the trees. =20 I have lost my bookmarks on the salt water asparagus research that I was = talking about earlier. I am sure that the University of Arizona was invol= ved in research near Rocky Point, Mexico to develop a suitable cash crop = for third world countries with large coastal areas. They had great succes= s growing their test plants and had successful tests with human and anima= l food trials. The very tips of the plants were pruned off for humans to = minimize the salty taste, and the rest given to animals which seemed to l= ove the taste but required higher water levels to offset the increased sa= lt intake. The plant also produces a small seed with good oil properties,= although not near as valuable as say Soy Beans. Still, promising researc= h. For you folks on the list from Jamiaca and other areas, this could be = an excellent choice to add to your aquaponics mix of crops. =20 Being located here in Arizona, I will attempt to find out all the details= on the plant and post when I get it. My particular take on this plant is= to try and grow it in the high mineral content freshwater on my land. My= experiment will be to grow the plant with the idea of developing at leas= t four potential "markets". 1) Human table food (Asparagus like veggie), = 2) Use the seeds for oil production, 3) sell the leftover plant to local = farmers for animal fodder, and 4) Feed the leftover bits to Tilapia and o= ther herbivore species to see if they will eat it. It will be several mon= ths before I have any hard facts for you, but I will post it when I have = some data. Robby =_NextPart_001_0007_01C10D52.936C1D20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I take it that you live in the heavily M= ormon South Eastern Arizona in the San Pedro river drainage
beca= use of all of the hot springs there .

Actually I am talking about the Southwestern part of AZ along the Gila River Basin from Gila Bend, AZ west towa= rds Yuma, AZ.

Have you gotten a water analyses yet and if so what was the min= eral content? Could you grow say giant clams for export? Coral to sh= ip to city markets?

I am attempting to find more data on wells in the area. I have data= on temps, etc. but not mineral content as yet I know that the Total Diss= olved Solids (TDS) levels are off the scale for human consumption in many= of the areas surrounding Gila Bend, Arizona. Also the Flouride leve= ls are at or exceeding toxic levels to humans. Are fish affected in the s= ame way as humans by high Flouride concentrations? TSD levels have been s= ampled at 900 mg/l to about 5,000 mg/l in 1979 (Sebenik, 1981). Flou= ride levels ranged from 0.5 to 6.2 mg/l. Water temperatures range from 105 degrees near Hyder, AZ we= st of Gila Bend, to 167 degrees F from just north of Gila Bend in Pe= rryville, AZ. I am searching the United States Geological Survey, Arizona= Department of Water Resources, and other sites to try and find water sam= ple data. Anyone know of other sites for water quality data? I might= just go out there and pull some samples from several farmer's irrigation= canals, etc. and have them analyzed as well. Any suggestions on the leas= t expensive solution to have water samples analyzed for mineral content?<= /FONT>

What do you know about Salt water? Are you experienced a= s a hobbyist or will you just hire some one like
Arlos or Ted?<= /DIV>

I only have basic knowledge of salt water = systems. I am positioning my business as a mid sized commercial operation= and thus intend to hire an expert in the field for at least an ongoing c= onsulting post if not a full-time farm operations manager. As a life long= entrepreneur and small business owner, I am delegating the technical det= ails to someone strong in those skills while freeing me to do what I do b= est, i.e. marketing and sales of my crops.

I will be= using mangroves as nitrate sinks and would also like to know about veggi= e crops that I can grow in salt water.

I had not thought of Mangrove forests as an option. With our 300 plus= days of sunshine out here and plenty of available water, I bet that they= would grow well here. I appreciate the suggestion and will research= potential commercial uses for the lumber, etc. from the trees.

I have lost my bookmarks on t= he salt water asparagus research that I was talking about earlier. I am s= ure that the University of Arizona was involved in research near Rocky Po= int, Mexico to develop a suitable cash crop for third world countries wit= h large coastal areas. They had great success growing their test plants a= nd had successful tests with human and animal food trials. The very tips = of the plants were pruned off for humans to minimize the salty taste, and= the rest given to animals which seemed to love the taste but required hi= gher water levels to offset the increased salt intake. The plant also pro= duces a small seed with good oil properties, although not near as valuabl= e as say Soy Beans. Still, promising research. For you folks on the list = from Jamiaca and other areas, this could be an excellent choice to add to= your aquaponics mix of crops.

Being located here in Arizona, I will attempt to find out all = the details on the plant and post when I get it. My particular take on th= is plant is to try and grow it in the high mineral content freshwater on = my land. My experiment will be to grow the plant with the idea of develop= ing at least four potential "markets". 1) Human table food (Asparagus lik= e veggie), 2) Use the seeds for oil production, 3) sell the leftover plan= t to local farmers for animal fodder, and 4) Feed the leftover bits to Ti= lapia and other herbivore species to see if they will eat it. It will be = several months before I have any hard facts for you, but I will post it w= hen I have some data.

<= /DIV>

Robby

=_NextPart_001_0007_01C10D52.936C1D20-- | Message 43 Subject: RE: Iron in fish water ? From: "Chris Jeppesen" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 18:00:17 -0700 Thanks Emmett well where back to nails. chris >I wouldn't use Ironite. It's a byproduct of the mining industry in Arizona >and has been shown to contain heavy metals. > > http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/health-science/html98/fchar_051798.html > >Scroll down the list. Arsenic and cadmium come up first so you'll have to >scroll down to see nickel, lead, mercury, moly, and zinc. It's for this >reason I counsel people not to use either Ironite or Milorganite( a product >of Milwaukee sewer sludge) in the garden or around their fruit trees. > Emmett | Message 44 Subject: Re: Virus Update From: fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 20:03:10 -0500 (CDT) To tell you the truth I have not been sent the HAHAHA E-mail virus since getting off of the other worthless lists .My web.tv cant get it but on my other system an Acer I think the HAHAHA virus disabled the mouse when my wife clicked on it Bruce | Message 45 Subject: Animals for heat conservation From: "Hiromi Iwashige" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 21:24:14 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. =_NextPart_000_0005_01C10D74.7F053660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bruce, The greenhouse we're considering building would be on a 16 ft. = concrete slab on the south side of a 50 ft. east/west wing of an empty = hog facility. The block wall on the north side has four windows and = four swinging doors at floor level that gave hogs passage between the = inside and outside pens. These openings access a large unpartitioned, = uninsulated area that was originally used for growing feeder pigs. The = concrete deck outside was the feeding/watering area. I don't have a handle on how these openings could be used for = ventilation--perhaps in conjunction with window fans and other openings = in the greenhouse structure.=20 This farm also has rabbits, chickens, goats, and cattle, all of = which would benefit from weather protection during the coldest part of = the winter. I'm toying with ideas on how housing them inside the = building adjacent to the greenhouse could facilitate stabilizing = nighttime and cloudy day temperatures in the greenhouse on the other = side of the block wall. Their body heat can be significant, but the = space is large. Does anyone have any idea whether this is a feasible = option for winter heat conservation? We generally have fairly sunny, = open winters. These animals would likely all be outside during the = summer and not be adversely affected by heat venting from the = greenhouse. Thanks for the tip on locating fish tanks under grow beds. I never = thought of that. Miriam =_NextPart_000_0005_01C10D74.7F053660 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Bruce,

The greenhouse we're = considering=20 building would be on a 16 ft. concrete slab on the south side of a = 50 ft.=20 east/west wing of an empty hog facility. The block wall on the = north side=20 has four windows and four swinging doors at floor level that gave hogs = passage=20 between the inside and outside pens. These openings access a = large=20 unpartitioned, uninsulated area that was originally used for growing = feeder=20 pigs. The concrete deck outside was the feeding/watering=20 area.

I don't have a = handle on how=20 these openings could be used for ventilation--perhaps in conjunction = with window=20 fans and other openings in the greenhouse structure.

This farm also has = rabbits,=20 chickens, goats, and cattle, all of which would benefit = from weather=20 protection during the coldest part of the winter. I'm toying with = ideas on=20 how housing them inside the building adjacent to the greenhouse could = facilitate=20 stabilizing nighttime and cloudy day temperatures in the = greenhouse on the=20 other side of the block wall. Their body heat can be significant, = but the=20 space is large. Does anyone have any idea whether this is a = feasible=20 option for winter heat conservation? We generally have fairly = sunny, open=20 winters. These animals would likely all be outside during the = summer and=20 not be adversely affected by heat venting from the = greenhouse.

Thanks for the tip = on locating=20 fish tanks under grow beds. I never thought of=20 that. =20 Miriam

=_NextPart_000_0005_01C10D74.7F053660-- | Message 46 Subject: Greenhouse construction handbook From: "Hiromi Iwashige" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 21:26:54 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. =_NextPart_000_000E_01C10D74.DEC67500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Can anyone recommend a good greenhouse construction handbook ? = Miriam =_NextPart_000_000E_01C10D74.DEC67500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Can anyone recommend a good greenhouse = construction=20 handbook ? =20 Miriam

=_NextPart_000_000E_01C10D74.DEC67500-- | Message 47 Subject: Joel Salatin's books From: "Hiromi Iwashige" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 21:36:49 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. =_NextPart_000_0020_01C10D76.417E9000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark, =20 I am familiar with Joel Salatin's work and have studied and used his = pastured poultry system. I have browsed through You Can Farm but have = never read it thoroughly. I want to. I hope to hear him speak this = fall in MO. I am completely in agreement with his observations and = appreciate his contribution to helping people make sense of and find joy = in making a living on the farm. Miriam =_NextPart_000_0020_01C10D76.417E9000 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Mark,

I am familiar with = Joel=20 Salatin's work and have studied and used his pastured poultry = system. I=20 have browsed through You Can Farm but have never read it=20 thoroughly. I want to. I hope to hear him speak this fall in = MO. I am completely in agreement with his observations and = appreciate his=20 contribution to helping people make sense of and find joy in making a = living on=20 the farm.

Miriam

=_NextPart_000_0020_01C10D76.417E9000-- | Message 48 Subject: Re: France From: S & S Aqua Farm Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 22:01:33 -0500 At 11:41 AM 07/12/2001 -0400, you wrote: >I have to been in France for several weeks the first weeks of August >(it's a hard job but someone has to do it) to visit some greenhouse >manufacturing facilities. Does anyone have any suggests about >aquaculture research sites or aquaponic operations that I might visit >while in-country? > >Thanks for your advice, >Thomas S. Handwerker >Tshandwerker 'at' mail.umes.edu >http://www.skipjack.net/sfi Dr. Handwerker - It's terrible the things one must suffer through in order to expand knowledge, eh? Several weeks in France? my sympathies :>) While I don't have any direct knowledge of facilities/operations there, I hope that you'll give us a short report on your return -- both on your greenhouse facilities visits as well as any aquaculture/aquaponics operations. Best of luck. Paula S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124 Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/ | Message 49 Subject: RE: Greenhouse construction handbook From: "Mark Allen Wells" Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 22:08:07 -0500 Miriam, There is some decent information and a free design and installation guide here. http://www.sundancesupply.com/index2.html Our public library had a couple of decent books. If you have access to one, you may check there. The Appropriate Technology Transfer for Rural Areas website had lots of resources listed. http://www.attra.org/attra-pub/solar-gh.html hope it was of some help, Mark | Message 50 Subject: Re: My new page From: S & S Aqua Farm Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 22:11:44 -0500 At 03:29 PM 07/12/2001 -0300, you wrote: >Friends at Aquaponic list: > > My new page is now in English and in Spanish >http://www.geocities.com/englc_arano >and >http://www.geocities.com/c_arano > > Maybe some of you will like to read there about conductivities. > > As you know my English is not too good. I will appreciate any grammar or >syntaxis correction. You can help me in improving it. Send to my personal >address c.arano 'at' bigfoot.com > >Regards from Argentina, > >Carlos Carlos - congratulations on your English language page, and thanks for making the information accessible to those of us who don't read Spanish. Your efforts certainly reflect the long hours of work you have put into your project. Paula S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124 Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/ | Message 51 Subject: Re: Iron in fish water ? From: S & S Aqua Farm Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 22:18:18 -0500 At 05:57 PM 07/14/2001 EDT, Bert wrote: >Does anyone have any experience in a suggestion for an Iron Source that may >be added to the fish tank water without causing problems with the Tilapia ? Bert - you may not have an iron deficiency so much as an inability to uptake what is available, which (I understand) can be aggravated by a high level of calcium bicarbonate (not sure if I'm remembering this correctly). We were told, initially, that our water was too "hard" to allow the plants to uptake iron, and would have to supplement. We found, however, that adding Maxicrop (soluble seaweed extract) to the fish water provided the enzymes that would by-pass the problem and allow uptake by the plants. Hope this helps. Paula S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124 Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/ | Message 52 Subject: Free Solar Greenhouse Plans by The Sun Country Greenhouse Company From: kris book Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 21:19:05 -0600 Miriam, This web site has a lot of good info that you can use and it is easy to understand. kris http://www.icenter.net/~ggowler/FreeSolar.html | Message 53 Subject: RE: PH adjustment From: S & S Aqua Farm Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 22:51:46 -0500 At 10:39 PM 07/12/2001 -0400, Mark wrote: >Hi Paula, > >I'm setting up a bed with pea gravel. As I mentioned >in my last response, I hope to use mostly rainwater >and excessively high PH won't be an issue anymore. But >I'm setting the system up with municipal water and the PH >is very high. I just wanted to make sure the acid I bring >it down with was suitable for both fish and plants. I think >I know the answer to that now but any input you may have >is greatly appreciated. > >I know the PH will drop some from it's initial point after >a tank runs for a while. In an established, well ran tank, >does it stabilize at that point or will it need buffering? Mark - I've pulled some posts from the archives and hope they more completely answer your questions. My opinion is that pH will stabilize and require no further modifications, but I'll post some more informed opinions than my own. Paula S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124 Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/ ---- Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 13:03:49 -0400 (AST) From: james.rakocy 'at' uvi.edu (James Rakocy, Ph.D.) Subject: Re: Water hardness/fish tolerance, was Re: Partial Water Changes carbonate >alkalinity are very beneficial for fish in recirculating systems. >Alkalinity provides a buffering system preventing rapid flucuations in >pH. Low alkalinity water, less than 5 ppm. are actually a greater >stress on fish than higher levels. Bicarbonate buffers waters >against sudden changes in pH. There can be a difference in hardness and >alkalinity especially if the hardness components are alkaline earth >substances. A hard water does not always indicate high alkalinity. >When total hardness and total alkalinity are equal calcium and magnesium >are totaly associated with bicarbonate and carbonate. When total >alkalinity is higher than hardness than bicarbonate and carbonate must >be associated with other availabe minerals such as potassium and sodium. > When total hardness is greater than alkalinity calcium and magnesium >can be associated with sulfate, chloride, silicate or nitrate. >Alkalinity is important in recirculating systems because there is a >normal build up of carbon dioxide and in some systems the carbon dioxide >must be removed by aeration or other methods. Carbon dioxide is a >source for acid formation and can cause depressions in the pH. > >Paula, I trust this explanation will be helpful to some of the >subscribers. > >Chuck Hicks An additional note: Do not let your pH fall below 7.0 because nitrification efficiency, the conversion of ammonia to nitrite to nitrate by bacteria, declines dramatically. Nitrification stops when pH is below 6, and ammonia will build up rapidly. However, it will be in the non-toxic ionic form - NH4+. I once had ammonia-nitrogen levels at 169 mg/L without any problem as long as the pH was low. If pH increased 0.1 units, the fish went off feed immediately as NH4+ shifted to NH3, toxic ammonia gas (2.4 mg/L is lethal to tilapia). If you discover that your pH is in the 5 range, chances are that a large reservoir of NH4+ has accumulated. When you add a large amount of base to rectify the problem (bring the pH to 7), the fish will literally jump out of the tank in one massive explosion as they are zapped by the instantaneous conversion of NH4+ to NH3. Add the base very gradually over days until you reach pH 7. As for carbon dioxide, have plenty of aeration to blow it out of the water into your greenhouse where it can increase plant growth rates by up to 30% as many studies have shown. If CO2 accumulates in the water above 20 mg/L it will slow fish growth, even kill them at high levels, as CO2 will interfere with the fishes ability to absorb oxygen through their gills. In pure oxygen systems the accumulation of CO2 is a big problem because diffused aeration isn't used to avoid stipping the high levels of dissolved oxygen from the water. Chemicals can be used to convert CO2 to bicarbonate and carbonate alkalinity, but alkalinity levels become astronomically high - 700 to 800 mg/L or more. Special areation zones/towers are established to "sparge" the CO2 from the water. Jim R. - Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 14:17:48 -0600 From: Gordon Watkins Subject: Re: Water hardness/fish tolerance, Jim, your and Chuck's explanations of the inter-relatedness of pH, alkalinity, hardness, ammonia and CO2 was very enlightening. Thanks to both of you for taking the time to explain it so well. It confirms my belief that the hard, alkaline, high pH water that we have here in the Ozarks is well suited for aquaponic systems. Regards, Gordon ---- Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:50:21 -0400 (AST) From: james.rakocy 'at' uvi.edu (James Rakocy, Ph.D.) Subject: Re: Question about controlling pH In aquaponic systems pH always goes down. When less than pH 7.0, add bases such as calcium hydroxide, calcium oxide or potassium hydroxide. Do not use sodium hydroxide. Your source water must be very alkaline. In hydroponics I am told that pH goes up and must be brought down with acids. Jim R. >I have a question that I've been pondering concerning controlling the pH of >the water in an aquaponics system. I've done some hydroponics, and one of >the things that needs to be controlled with hydroponics is the pH of the >nutrient solution, which are generally chemicals that wouldn't be healthy >for fish. I also raise fish, and one of the problems with fish is that the >water pH changes as water evaporates, and fish wastes are produced. >Filtering the water and using things to absorb or break down fish wastes -- Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 07:12:39 -0500 From: S & S Aqua Farm Subject: Re: Question about controlling pH At 10:17 AM 6/11/98 -0500, Linda Jones wrote: >I have a question that I've been pondering concerning controlling the pH of >the water in an aquaponics system. I've done some hydroponics, and one of >the things that needs to be controlled with hydroponics is the pH of the >nutrient solution, which are generally chemicals that wouldn't be healthy >for fish. I also raise fish, and one of the problems with fish is that the >water pH changes as water evaporates, and fish wastes are produced. >Filtering the water and using things to absorb or break down fish wastes >weren't enough to keep the pH of the water from becoming very alkaline - in >part because we have very hard water here, and evaporation makes it even >harder. The way I have learned to control the fish water pH is to change out >some of the water on a regular basis. The way I have learned to control the >hydroponics nutrient pH is by adding buffering agents. So my question is, >how do you control the pH with a hydroponics/fish combination in aquaponics? >How does evaporation affect the pH of the water? Or do the plants somehow >help to buffer the pH of the fish water? Given that I'm not a very >scientifically minded person, and never understood chemistry very well, I'm >looking for laymen's methods, rather than complex chemistry instructions. Hi Linda - glad that you asked for laymen's opinions, or I'd have to leave this to our more scientifically-talented members. We don't have a method for adjusting pH, but I'll offer some opinions based on observation of our system. When we built our first system we were told by our local horticulture advisors that we would have to adjust the pH of our tank water (7.3) to lower it for good plant growth (we were starting with tomatoes and cucumbers because that's all either one of us had had much experience growing in gardens). Of course our advisors had no more experience with this type of system than we did. They suggested sulphuric acid, but we decided to try to find something we thought might be less drastic. While we pursued other options, the plants grew anyway, and when we found that they were growing and producing, decided that perhaps there was no need to bother. My personal opinion (others welcome to jump in here) is that there is a synergy in the system that keeps it balanced for both fish and plant growth - similar to a natural pond system. I don't know if the bacterial action in the gravel beds (continually breaking down the fish wastes into plant-usable nutrients) and the uptake of nutrients by the plants "buffers" the pH of the fish water. I do know that as long as we have sufficient plant growth in the beds and circulate the water to maintain good aeration the water quality remains stable for the fish. Paula Speraneo Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:50:15 -0400 (AST) From: james.rakocy 'at' uvi.edu (James Rakocy, Ph.D.) Subject: Re: Question about controlling pH >When we built our first system we were told by our local horticulture >advisors that we would have to adjust the pH of our tank water (7.3) to >lower it for good plant growth (we were starting with tomatoes and cucumbers >because that's all either one of us had had much experience growing in >gardens). Of course our advisors had no more experience with this type of >system than we did. They suggested sulphuric acid, This is what is supposed to happen in standard hydroponics where there is no organic matter or a continuous source of ammonia. but we decided to try to >find something we thought might be less drastic. While we pursued other >options, the plants grew anyway, and when we found that they were growing >and producing, decided that perhaps there was no need to bother. > >My personal opinion (others welcome to jump in here) is that there is a >synergy in the system that keeps it balanced for both fish and plant growth >- similar to a natural pond system. I don't know if the bacterial action in >the gravel beds (continually breaking down the fish wastes into plant-usable >nutrients) and the uptake of nutrients by the plants "buffers" the pH of the >fish water. I do know that as long as we have sufficient plant growth in >the beds and circulate the water to maintain good aeration the water quality >remains stable for the fish. Fish excrete ammonia gas (NH3) through their gills which acts as a buffer because it grabs a hydrogen ion (acid) to become NH4 (ammonium). The bacteria in the biofilter transform NH4 to NO3 (nitrate) and in the process release four hydrogen ions, lots of acid. Therefore in aquaponic systems the pH will always decrease rapidly unless base is added regularly. What's happening in your system, Paula, is that the gravel is carbonate based and is dissolving to neutralize the acid (e.g., CaCO3 = Ca++ plus CO3--; CO3-- plus 2H+ = H2O plus CO2 gas, which is drivem of into the atmosphere by your aeration system. Jim R. | Message 54 Subject: Tanks under growbeds From: S & S Aqua Farm Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 23:36:09 -0500 Bruce wrote: >And that the fish tanks are >below the grow beds using the same space twice. Maybe even in the ground >to act as a heat sink storage area .Am I right? At 09:24 PM 07/15/2001 -0500, Miriam wrote: > Thanks for the tip on locating fish tanks under grow beds. I never thought of that. Miriam -- be sure to consider your logistics when you think about putting the fish tanks under the grow beds. Where it may be a feasible system with raft growing, if you intend to use gravel beds this could create some problems. Our tanks are 4' tall, and adding another 1' height to that would certainly create an unworkable situation for most people. Now if you have some spare 8' tall workers, maybe not! Bruce - since we use black tanks to maximize the solar heat gain through the winter, sinking them into the ground would definitely defeat that purpose. Maximizing space in the greenhouse is a wise move, but not at the expense of ease-of-working conditions. A lot depends, I guess on climate and what you intend to grow .and whether you will heat your water by some other method and how you plan to harvest the fish .and many other variables. Paula S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124 Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/