Aquaponics Digest - Wed 08/08/01

Message   1: Re: Used oil heaters
             from "Nick" 

Message   2: Re: Pacu vs Bluegill
             from "STEVE SPRING" 

Message   3: Re: Re:bacterial soup
             from "STEVE SPRING" 

Message   4: Re: GM tomato thrives on salt (fwd)
             from "dyarrow" 

Message   5: Re: GM tomato thrives on salt (fwd)
             from "dyarrow" 

Message   6: Re: Re:GM tomato thrives on salt (fwd)
             from "dyarrow" 

Message   7: Re: Sea salt
             from "dyarrow" 

Message   8: Re: Sea salt
             from "dyarrow" 

Message   9: RE: Propagation of Plants - useful information in the propagation
         of food plants
             from "Hurst, Steve ( China)" 

Message  10: Re: sustainable energy
             from "TGTX" 

Message  11: Geothermal energy
             from "gutierrez-lagatta" 

Message  12: RE: Pacu vs Bluegill
             from "Mark Allen Wells" 

Message  13: Re: Re:GM tomato thrives on salt (fwd)
             from "Dorothy Mann" 

Message  14: Re: Fish data needed
             from Jenny Reed 

Message  15: RE: Report on farmer's market
             from "Mark Allen Wells" 

Message  16: Re: Re:GM tomato thrives on salt (fwd)
             from "bennett" 

Message  17: bluegill tank
             from "bennett" 

Message  18: Re: Used oil heaters
             from "Brent Bingham" 

Message  19: Adriana's New Thread
             from DAVEINBHAM 'at' aol.com

Message  20: Re: Adriana's New Thread
             from "gutierrez-lagatta" 

Message  21: bacteria
             from Andrei Calciu

Message  22: Re: bluegill tank
             from "Arlos" 

Message  23: Re: Used oil heaters
             from "Arlos" 

Message  24: Re: bacteria
             from "Arlos" 

Message  25: New Alchemy And Green Center Archives - Falmouth, MA
             from kris book 

Message  26: # of fish per tank
             from Teresa Blackwood 

Message  27: more ??? on # of fish per tank
             from "bennett" 

Message  28: Re: Used oil heaters
             from "Brent Bingham" 

Message  29: Re: Sea salt
             from "Brent Bingham" 

Message  30: Re: Sea salt
             from "Arlos" 

Message  31: Re: Used oil heaters
             from "Arlos" 

Message  32: References
             from S & S Aqua Farm 

Message  33: Aqua-L mail group and other lists for multiple species
             from S & S Aqua Farm 

Message  34: Re: Adriana's New Thread
             from "dyarrow" 

Message  35: RE: # of fish per tank
             from "Mark Allen Wells" 

Message  36: RE: New Alchemy And Green Center Archives - Falmouth, MA
             from "Mark Allen Wells" 

.         .
| Message 1                                                           

Subject: Re: Used oil heaters
From:    "Nick" 
Date:    Tue, 7 Aug 2001 22:14:49 -0700

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jay Myers" 

Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 5:57 AM
Subject: Used oil heaters

<<>>

> Harold Electric Co.  800 541-8910
> They also have a web-site - I've seen this one work at a Boise Farm Show
in
> November outside. It burned clean and put out a huge amount of heat. They
> sell a kit so you can make out of 2  55 gal drums for about $1600.  Used
oil
> gives 140,000 BTU's/ gallon.
>
> Jay
> Panama City Beach, Fl.
>

 http://www.heco.net/Wasteoil.htm

(link to Harold Electric Company HECO oil burner site)

.         .
| Message 2                                                           

Subject: Re: Pacu vs Bluegill
From:    "STEVE SPRING" 
Date:    Wed, 8 Aug 2001 01:26:43 -0500

Hi Mark,

"Ditto" the conversation.

Didn't know these were F-1 hybrids
."Sorry 'bout that!"  Also, didn't know
that this guy was a major "player" in supplying throughout Indiana. My
fault. I guess I missed that. Did you say that you pay 33c - 35c for a 3" -
5" fingerling? The fingerlings that I get from Ken are barely an inch long.

The main reason that I'm really interested is that I will be attending the
NC conference and I will also be attending the Crop King conference in
Orlando. These are not until November. I was going to swing through GA on my
way back from FL and pick up the fingerlings. If your supplier has F-I
hybrids that I can just run to Indiana and pick up, well, that gives me a 2
month advantage. When is he going to have another fish sale? Can you see if
this guy has an email address or a phone #?

On to the music thing. I told you about Lee Rittenour & Russ Freeman
(Rippingtons). Also get into Larry Carlton. You won't be sorry.

Pls. reply to:  so we don't burden Paula's list.

Later my friend

Steve

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Allen Wells" 

Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 8:41 AM
Subject: RE: Pacu vs Bluegill

>Now, these are from a basically  "unproven" supplier
.does he
have any records, etc. to his name
.I doubt it

I can't say that they are the same as Ken's fish, but I wouldn't
exactly call them unproven either.  He has supplied millions of them
to ponds in Indiana over the last decade.  They are F-1 hybrids.
What remains to be proven I think is a how hybrids perform in an
aquaculture/aquaponics environment.  They will most definitely
sell well if they can be produced efficiently.

I would be interested in knowing the growth rates that Ken has had
with them.

enjoyed the conversation, Steve

take it easy,
mark

.         .
| Message 3                                                           

Subject: Re: Re:bacterial soup
From:    "STEVE SPRING" 
Date:    Wed, 8 Aug 2001 01:50:15 -0500

"Ditto"
.Socially Insensitive

.Steve

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bruce Schreiber" 

Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 1:08 AM
Subject: Re: Re:bacterial soup

Ted nice to see you back I thought you maby migrated to mars or somthing
                  Bruce

.         .
| Message 4                                                           

Subject: Re: GM tomato thrives on salt (fwd)
From:    "dyarrow" 
Date:    Wed, 8 Aug 2001 13:50:01 -0400

----- Original Message -----
From: 

Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 6:12 AM
Subject: Re: GM tomato thrives on salt (fwd)
> Lemme ask a lateral 

 6000 years ago,
> in an obscure ancient writing some advice was given about leaving land
> fallow for a year, after 7 years,

the hebrew old testament, was it?  and every (7 x 7) + 1 years was the year of
jubilee.

> in which in my opinion is the same
> thing as saying that you should give the natural soil bacteria a chance
> to recoup and for natural decomposition and renewed bioaugmentation to
> occur.
>
> Question: IF we knew this all the way back then
. why have we drifted
> from this line of reasoning??

because we have become dependent on chemical technology to short circuit
natural processes.  biological processes involving bactreria and other
microbes.were discounted in the rush to reduce all life to chemical
constituents.  the industrial revolution brought us the machine metaphor as a
dominant paradigm for comprehending nature.  this mindset climaxed in the
period between the civil war and ww1.

then, in the latter half of the 19th century, chemistry -- especially organic
chemistry derived from coal tar and petroleum -- rose to become the ew
dominant paradigm to mimic nature and give us all the answers to nature's
mysteries.  biology, medicine, nutrition, agriculture and all else depended
opn chemical metaphors to enlighten our insights  into life.  this mindset
climaxed around ww2, and spawned a host of technologies and industries.

thus, plant nutrition was equated to this chemistry.  the restriction that
corn must be grown in rotation was abandoned for bags of nitrate chemical
fertilizers that allow corn to be grown year after year in the same soil.
plant roos were understood to feed directly on soluble salts in ionic states
in the soil solution.  the notion that bacteria and other microbes have
anything to do with plant nutrition was disregarded.  rather, microbes became
the enemy to be decimaterd with more chemicals.

since world war 2, the electrical paradigm has risen to dominance, altho it
has yet to reach its peak.  purely electric concepts are giving way lately to
electronic ideas, altho the notion of solid state biology in cell physiology
is still rather alien to life science.  the computer only appeared since ww2.

one thing i appeciate about aquaponics is its recognition of the role of
bacteria to transform animal waste into plant nutrients. microbes are seen as
allies, not enemies, in the life cycle.  without bacteria, plants starve and
fish drown in wastes.

interestingly, the man who invented chemical fertilizers -- german chemist
baron justus von liebig -- in his later years apparently repented of his
invention:

"I had sinned against the wisdom of the Creator

 I wished to improve His
work, and in my blindness believed that, in the marvelous chain of laws
binding life on earth's surface and keeping it always new, a link had been
forgotten which I, weak and powerless worm, must supply."  -- quoted from
Encyclopedia Brittanica, 1899 (removed from subsequent editions.)

for more about this, see: www.championtrees.org\topsoil\bread.htm

only in recent decades has the critical role of soil biology and the living
soil feeding web become recognized in agriculture and horticulture.  i
hestitate to call it a revolution -- yet.

personally, i'm waiting to see recognition of the subtle force in nature and
biolgy -- namely, magnetism.  we know lots about ions, electrolytes and
electricity in biological processes, but we comprehend little of how magnetism
engenders shape and coheres molecules into stable form.  electricity is chare,
which is spin, but magnetism is the force that impats form to the flow.

like, did you aquaponic pioneers ever consider that water is magnetic?  it's
not all hydrogen bonding.  under proper conditions -- like inside a cell
membrane -- water become a coherent liquid crystal -- a semiconductor.  to
comprehend that, you'll need a degree in solid state physics.

~  David Yarrow
Turtle EyeLand Sanctuary
44 Gilligan Road, East Greenbush, NY 12061
518-477-6100
www.championtrees.org

.         .
| Message 5                                                           

Subject: Re: GM tomato thrives on salt (fwd)
From:    "dyarrow" 
Date:    Wed, 8 Aug 2001 13:50:11 -0400

seems you've been reading sitchkin.  he is definitely onto something, but he
takes all things far too literally.  sitchkin's gods and angels are just a
roving band of extra-terrestrials who pay periodic visits to earth to
manipulate man and mine earth's gold.

but one man alien is another man's angel.  and one man's angel is just an
angle to an intellectual hard head.

even hollywood has discovered we live in a universe of more than four
dimensions.  the physical world is a phi-cycle whorled where cubic reality
defines the bars of our prison.

~  David Yarrow
Turtle EyeLand Sanctuary
44 Gilligan Road, East Greenbush, NY 12061
518-477-6100
www.championtrees.org

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Schreiber" 

Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: GM tomato thrives on salt (fwd)

> Mike in answer your question.
>    Because its always open to interpretation.
>   One of my favorite subjects is the ancient world origins if you will
> .The culture in question was a branch of the great Akkadion culture
> first ruled by Sargon of Akkad ruler of the first Semitic empire.(He was
> as a baby put in a reed boat and cast into the water as an offering to
> the Crocodile God in an area invested with baby fed fattened crocodiles
> .< Try putting a crying hungry baby in a reed boat and see how fast the
> predators come to the sound of the crying its like a predator call and
> is very effective >.as was the law with all first born children of the
> overpopulating and unwanted Semites at that time and later  Moses.This
> was imposed on them by EnKi their Angel benefactor as a form of birth
> control against his will to keep the other gods from doing the Noah
> flood over again.Sin in that culture means And was a
> good thing when the Angel/Gods did it Enki was Noah's  Angel father by
> an Adomic=(mixed one ) woman and went against his brothers to save Noah
> and his seed the last time and was cast in prison for a time for it when
> he was found out.  ) then and was saved by a princes of Ur as was the
> custom of the time with surviors of the water
> crossing-infanticide-massacres and adopted and raised as a prince of Ur
> a sister culture to Sumer its elder partner.
>  AKA. UR the birth place of AbRam a son of the ruling class he later
> killed out the crocodiles by poisoning them with tar stuffed sheep skins
> he also being a survivor or the crocodiles he than had to flee to stay
> with Shem the son of Noah for protection until things cooled off a bit
> this is Abraham of genesis
>               Bruce
>
>

.         .
| Message 6                                                           

Subject: Re: Re:GM tomato thrives on salt (fwd)
From:    "dyarrow" 
Date:    Wed, 8 Aug 2001 14:09:32 -0400

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dorothy Mann" 

Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 8:32 AM
Subject: Re: Re:GM tomato thrives on salt (fwd)
> Hi-
> Is it possible to get a small amount of ' sea solids' to experiment with?
> Becky Hines

in 1983, the year before he died, maynard murray sold his florida hydroponics
farm to don jansen, a mennonite wheat and buffalo farmer from nebraska. don
jansen has kept the business going ever since, but has become completely
discouraged to find anyone interested in dr. murray's remarkable research
discoveries.  he is packing up and taking his system to haiti, where the need
for food is serious, and the need for a high quality, high efficiency food
production technology acute.

i interviewed don in january, and i will paste my short article about him
below.  also added is a bit of text from dr. murray about "crystalloid" water.

don told me he had perhaps two tons of sea solids left, and was willing to
share some with any serious experimenters.

Don Jansen
Ocean-grown Foods
3746 Luzon Street
Ft. Myers, FL  33901
941-936-6716

~  David Yarrow
Turtle EyeLand Sanctuary
44 Gilligan Road, East Greenbush, NY 12061
518-477-6100
www.championtrees.org

EXTRA TEXT: Tuesday morning, Jan. 2, 2001

Nebraska Disciple

In 1981, Maynard Murray, now retired to Florida, met Don Jansen, son of a
Mennonite farmer in western Nebraska.  That year Don had spread sea solids on
his wheat field.  Surprised at the results, Don contacted his fertilizer
supplier, Dr. Murray.

After high school, Don Jansen had left his parents Mennonite farm to pursue a
college degree and professional career.  His elderly parents passed the wheat
and buffalo farm on to Don's brother.  But when this brother had a crippling
heart attack, Don left his urban career to return to the farm.

Wheat grew unevenly on the farm's rolling Nebraska hills.  Fertilizer and
topsoil washed off high spots and steep slopes to puddle in hollows.  Wheat on

upper slopes was thin, weak, while bottom soils grew sturdy stands.

Don spread Murray's sea solids on wheat fields, uncertain what would happen.
All his wheat grew stronger, stouter, fuller heads, and matured earlier.
Differences between upland and bottomland was gone, and former bare patches
filled in and flourished.

The Jansen farm included a small herd of 35 buffalo.  Don noticed right away
the buffalo preferred sea solids to regular salt blocks, and chose sea-fed
crops over chemically fertilized.

Buffalo were a tourist attraction, and significant source of extra income.
They drew steady streams of guests to observe indigenous American herbivore.
But visitors were usually disappointed, because the herd stayed far from the
fence, and were hard to see.   Tourists found it unrewarding to admire tiny
brown specks half a mile away.

Remembering Murray's cattle experiences, Don devised a solution for his bovine
voyeurs.  He fertilized along the fence with sea solids.  Soon the herd hung
out along the fence to munch the dark green, vigorous grass growing there.
They would graze that area first in preference to all other pasture grass.
This made the herd happy, and tourists, too.

Ocean-Grown Foods

In 1982, Dr. Murray invited Don to buy his 5.5 acre seaponic farm in Ft.
Myers, Florida.  Don's acceptance was timely, for the doctor died in 1983.  In
that last year, he paid Don steady visits to offer his information and insight
gathered in 45 years of research and medical practice.

Don found sea solid dilutions gave the highest yields, and made fertilizers,
pesticides and herbicides unnecessary, since the nutrients are complete and
the plants resist disease and insects.  Nutrients were measurably higher in
sea solid grown foods, and blind taste tests proved them favorites.  Fruit
trees responded enthusiastically to sea solid feedings.

Since it grows without synthetic chemicals, Don's produce is Certified
Organic, and his few intensive acres supply international organic wholesalers.
However, Don believes seaponics is beyond organic, since organic methods alone
do not insure the will have all the essential elements.  Seaponics is ideal
for areas where soils are rain-leached and depleted, such as south Florida.

America Doesn't Get It

Don tried to tell others the tremendous success of sea solids gave him, but
found no one cared to listen.

One grower asked for help with his dying citrus orchard.  Don delivered a
series of sea solid soil treatments over the next year, and the citrus decline
vanished.  But Don heard nothing further from any farmers.

Dominance of agriculture petrochemical industries.  Extension service, farm
supply, bank loan requirements, federal support policies all favor the
chemical paradigm. inability to introduce new or different thinking.  Sever
restriction on the ability of farming-which is to say, farmers-to change.

"America just doesn't get it" lamented Don Jansen.  "I've tried for 25 years
to make the case for sea solid fertilizers and more natural, balanced methods.
But Americans aren't ready to hear the truth."

"And America isn't going to get it anytime soon, because the
chemical-pharmaceutical-petroleum industry has too tight a grip on all the
markets and everyone's thinking."

Hydroponics in Haiti

Last year, now in his 70's, but still stubbornly pursuing his work with sea
solids, Don decided to look elsewhere for collaborators in research.  He
decided to go where the need is greatest, and began negotiations with Haiti to
transfer his sea solid hydroponics to this poverty riddled Caribbean island
nation.  With over-population, widespread poverty and unemployment, limited
arable farmland, and significant hunger and malnutrition, Haiti was in
desperate need of an intensive food growing system.

Don was able to negotiate with Gulf Coast University to collaborate on his
Haiti hydroponics project.  The university will provide technical support,
training, scientific design, research protocols, and documentation and
publishing support.

Imagine if.
Imagine that seawater-so abundant it's nearly free-is just what soils need to
grow healthy plants.  Three quarters of Earth's surface is ocean.  Something
so ordinary, so freely available, is so effective as a balanced fertilizer,
fundamental and essential for health.

Such a simple idea.  Yet it seems to work.  Wonderfully.

But how to make money on a resource so cheap and available?  Unless a business
can control its product and price, survival in the marketplace is short-lived.
Enterprise can't turn a profit selling a natural resource beyond the ownership
boundaries of any nation.  Yet, an industry is needed to convert seawater into
a product usable on the scale of farmers and other husbandmen.

In the 1980's, the reality was that American markets for farm supplies was
already owned and controlled by a few companies that manufacture chemicals for
fertilizers.  Most are owned or controlled by oil companies and their
subsidiaries.  The result of this extreme level of concentrated corporate
control and vertical consolidation is that farmers have no options to buying
bags and tanks of synthetic chemicals.  Research and education services are
financed exclusively to investigate and encourage chemical industry
approaches.

Such well-established, deeply entrenched companies have too much vested
interest to avoid their complete control of consensus over farm technology,
training and extension.  Any idea or effort for alternatives to the chemical
mindset is lost or smothered by the weight of consensus to keep doing it by
the same sure way.  Alien ideas are weeded out and ridiculed without any trial
or investigation.

Today, this chemical mindset is being supplanted by ideas embracing
biological, ecological and social dimensions of farm technology.  Farmers are
now accountable for the impact of their practices on the biosphere.  "Cost
effectiveness" is giving ground to "sustainability" as research priority,
policy guide and sales slogan.  Alternative techniques and products are
available to any grower motivated to search for them.  Volumes of information
are clicks away on the internet, in every agriculture library, from any
bookseller.

*******************

extra text from dr. murray:

I began my 45 years of research because I felt we should put all the elements
back into soil in the same proportion as in the sea.  I feel strongly plants
should have the opportunity to take up any element they might need.  Also, a
plant may take up elements that aren't critical for its physiology, but
required by animals in organic form, and only plants perform the
transformation.

In topsoil, elements are in a colloidal state, defined as "a gelatinous
substance, which-dissolved in liquid-will not diffuse readily through
membranes." Colloidal minerals are in suspension, not truly in solution.

In the sea, elements are in liquid crystalloid state, defined as "a
crystallizable substance, which-dissolved in liquid-will diffuse readily
through membranes."

Unlike a colloid state, liquid crystalloid of seawater retains only enough of
each element needed to maintain consistent chemical balance.  An excess of any
element will drop to the ocean bottom, where it is taken up only if plant or
animal life deplete it from seawater.  Thus, chemical balance is maintained

.         .
| Message 7                                                           

Subject: Re: Sea salt
From:    "dyarrow" 
Date:    Wed, 8 Aug 2001 15:17:03 -0400

----- Original Message -----
From: "jimtee" 

Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 8:44 AM
Subject: Sea salt
> Does anyone have any thoughts about using the salt water aquarium salt as
> the source for using on plants ? It is readily available at tropical fish
shops.
> jimtee

according to dr. maynard murray, the key to success is to use a complete sea
salt mixture so that all elements are present in exactly the same ratios as in
sea water.  the original reason for this choice was murray's observation that
the salts in human blood plasm are in nearly the exact ratios as in sea water.
any leaching of the sea salt will extract the more soluble mineral salts --
mostly the trace elements.  the lighter elements -- sodium, potassium,
calcium, magnesium -- will tend to remain in crystalline states, while the
heavier metals are dissolved and washed out.  dr. murray believed his method
worked because he carefully chose his sea solids so all the elements remain in
the same ratios as in sea water.  this means he chose his sea solids harvested
from areas of the earth where there is essentially no rainfall -- mostly from
baja california.

raw, unrefined sea salt should be a gray or greenish color.  if the salts are
white, they're refined to some degree.  all the so-called sea salts in natural
food stores i've seen were white and at least partially refined, meaning
missing the trace minerals.  except a product named "celtic sea salt,"
although i am pretty sure this product is produced in open air clay beds where
it is subject to leaching by rainfall, and is further washed by water as part
of its production process.

for what it's worth, i'll mention that unrefined sea salt is unsuitable as a
seasoning for human cooking and food prep because it is too high in magnesium,
which can lower blood pressure, slow heart rate and cause other undesireable
physiological changes.  i now thgis, because it has happened to me (got my
heart rate downto 58 per minutes).  then again, on the other side, refined
table salt -- sodium chloride -- is a major factor in hypertension, heart
disease, artheriosclerosis, and other conditions.  everything in balance.

i have witnessed this with a jar of "nigari" -- the natural salts used by
traditional japanese to coagulate the proteins in soymilk to curdle the milk
into tofu.  natural nigari is the salt remaining after the sodium chloride is
washed out; traditionally this was done by hanging a sackof raw, crude sea
salt in a canvas sack outdoors or in a cellar. the salt attracts and condenses
water from the air, which then washes down through the salt, dissolving the
heavier elements and slowly migrates down through the sack.  this
salt-saturated solution slowly drips out the bottom of the cloth sack, and
this briny liquor is captured in a container positioned under the sack.
dehydrated, this liquor becomes "nigari" and is loaded withthe heavier
elements in ionic salt forms.  it is a medium beige color of fine grained
crystals.  added to soymilk, these strong electrolytes attract and hold the
soymilk proteins, causing them to clump together and coagulate out of
solution, becoming tofu bean curd.

anyway, i put my nigari in a jar with a loose-fitting lid, and in the summer,
the high humidity air seeped into the jar and the water condensed into the
nigari, creating a thick soupy broth of quasi-liquid crystals.  after two
months, the bottom of the jar was a dark brown, while the upper layers of
nigari were several shades lighter color.  the heavy elements were dissolved
and migrated to the bottom, leaving the lighter elements in the upper layers.

so, now, imagine the jar full of nigari is topsoil, and the humid air is acid
rain.  guess which elements leach out of topsoil first?

my guess is that salt water aquarium salt is partially refined, which means
the trace elements are reduced.

also note that dr. murray used a dilute solution of sea water or sea solids
for his experiments.  and these applications were made infrequently -- every
five years or more.  not annually the way chemical farmers spread their n-p-k
fertilizers and lime.  this reduces the chance the lighter elements --
especially sodium -- will accumulate and slowly "poison" the soil.

another interesting agricultural soil amndment is a montmorillonite clay from
central utah.  one such product is "azomite" trademarked by a company in
missoui, altho the clay is ined by other companies using other names: elemite,
mezotrace, etc.  "azomite" is an acronym for "a-to-z of minearls including
trace elements," and contains over 70 elements.  it was written up in a
chapter of christopher bird's remarkable book "secrets of the soil."  see
www.azomite.com.

anyway, this clay is really an ancient sea floor sediment.  the great salt
lake is the last dregs of a vast inland ocean trapped amid the rocky
mountains, slowly drying up.  this clay is the debris that settled out of that
ocean and sedimented on the sea floor.  it includes not only the minerals
precipitating out, but all the dead organisms -- from microbes and algae to
fish and shellfish -- that iled up on the sea floor.  so the clay is a kind of
geological compost built up over eons on the sea floor.  as a sea sediment, it
is rich in trace elements much like murray's sea solids.  i suspect the
lighter minerals tend to remain in solution longer, and so the sediment is
more the heavier (trace) elements.

in considering this geological compost, be aware that the iron ore deposits
(hematite, etc.) we mine to make steel are really sea floor sediments formed
in earth's very early oceans.  primeval bacteria thrived by feeding on the
energy rich iron salts, and after the microbes extracted energy from the
ferrous salts, the iron preciptated out of solution to form sea floor
sediments.  after a few million years, enough iron was removed from sea water
to allow oxygen to remain in watery solution, and new organisms appeared able
to take advantage of this new chemistry.  eventually, bluegreen algae appeared
(spirulina) that coud capture sunshine to split water and store the energy
released as sugar, releasing oxygen.

at any rate. the utah clay has a 70 year history of being a dramatic plant
nutrient.  other companies are packing tis stuff in capsules and selling it as
colloidal mineral supplement for people and animals; so swear it prevents
cancer.  for more about the incredible effects of this trace element
fertilizer in horticulture, see:
www.championtrees.org\topsoil\JaredM.htm
www.championtrees.org\topsoil\EarthPlus.htm

good luck figuring out how to use this material in an aquaponic system.

~  David Yarrow
Turtle EyeLand Sanctuary
44 Gilligan Road, East Greenbush, NY 12061
518-477-6100
www.championtrees.org

.         .
| Message 8                                                           

Subject: Re: Sea salt
From:    "dyarrow" 
Date:    Wed, 8 Aug 2001 15:44:55 -0400

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Schreiber" 
Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 10:44 PM
Subject: Re: Sea salt
> Jimtee Guys be careful of trying salt on your system its only tolerated
> by a very few plants and you will wipe out your system plantings real
> quick with it !!!!!!!!

a good caution, but not applicable to seaponics.  the sea solids (or seawater)
is added in dilute fom, not full strength, as in ocean water.

also, be careful about terminologies.  "salt" is a general term for ionic
minerals, whereas it is sodium in table salt (sodium chloride) that poisons
plants (and animals).  using table alt is definitely unwise.  murray's sea
solids are crude, raw, unrefined sea salts where all the elements are present
in correct proportion to the sodium.  murray initially observed that human
blood has the same elements in the same ratios as sea water, which piqued his
curiosity to look deeper into the phenomena that few ocean creatures develop
degenerative diseases that plague freshwater animals, including humans.

consider that nitrogen is a necessary nutrient.  but too much becomes a toxin
that can cause sickness and death.  a lot of groundwater in the midwest is
unfit for consumption due to the accumulation of nitrogen as nitrates from
excess use of farm fertilizers -- bag chemicals and manure.  and then there's
all the algae blooms, red tide and related diseases created by caused by
manure and sewage in rivers and estuaries.

and calcium, too. too much lime on your soil will inhibit plant growth and
made feed and food unpalatable.

everything in balance.  as i coined in the 70's: "more is better, but less is
best."

>      Later when we have clones that are salt tolerant try it but now you
> should remember that the vast desert areas of the world that once were
> lush irrigated gardens like most of the middle east are now waist
> lands.The ancient irrigation canals are still in place the water is
> still there to use but using it just brings up more salt destroying

salt buildup is also a serious problem in prime farmland in california where
irrigation is being used.  farmland is being lost there due to salinization as
much as from erosion.

> seems that only
> in the valleys like the Nile where they have major seasonal  flooding
> are the salts washed away and agriculture can exist for any length of
> time

those annual river floods also bring in fresh loads of silt and rock dust to
replenish the minerals (particularly trace elements, not the n-p-k) in those
soils.  in fact, in the ancient world, most agriculture was conducted in river
valleys for just that reason.  only in modern times has mankind plowed up the
prairies and drylands to grow grain.  most dryland farming is mining not only
the soil for its minerals, but also the groundwater for irrigation, and such
practices have a short life, especially on a geological time scale.

it is worth reflecting on the role of water in these riverine systems of soil
renewal.  a few comments were made recently about "energized water."  the
combination of river water and minerals definitely generates a significant
energy to charge both the water and the electromagnetic state of the dissolved
minerals.

~  David Yarrow
Turtle EyeLand Sanctuary
44 Gilligan Road, East Greenbush, NY 12061
518-477-6100
www.championtrees.org

.         .
| Message 9                                                           

Subject: RE: Propagation of Plants - useful information in the propagation
         of food plants
From:    "Hurst, Steve ( China)" 
Date:    Wed, 8 Aug 2001 18:08:40 +0800

Thanks Kris,
 I have been searching to, problem is, I don 'at' t really know what
I am looking for !!

Thanks for those links, I will be checking them all out this evening,
Steve H

SNIP
Steve,

I've been searching for about 6 hours, with very little success. All
these links tell a little about propagation (cloning). I'll try again
tomorrow.The first one might have the best info.

kris

http://telework.ucdavis.edu/Propagation/

http://www.hcs.ohio-state.edu/mg/manual/prop2.htm#A

http://www.rainyside.com/resources/propagation/cuttings.html

http://www.windowbox.com/cgi-bin/experts/DisplayArticle.asp?TopicID=9&Art
icleID=121

http://www.powerup.com.au/~1earth/propagat.html

http://www.crfg.org/tidbits/proptable.html

.         .
| Message 10                                                          

Subject: Re: sustainable energy
From:    "TGTX" 
Date:    Wed, 8 Aug 2001 07:10:06 -0500

Ray,

"Fye

 were King

a da Forest

"
I would make you co-regent

you'd be a major satrap, governor, or energy
czar.
Very cogent and balanced arguements, sir.  And you didn't even resort to
reducing (or magnifying) your self to an 8 foot cartoon moose to deliver the
message.  Well done.
Had you done so, I might have been upstaged on my own guerrilla theatre
stage, and we simply can't have that, what?  heh,heh,heh.
I would also like to say I think the graphite jacketed sphere approach
(nuclear pebbles) to nuclear should be intensively investigated.  I have
read briefly on this topic and I am fascinated. There are no spent rods left
as in "conventional" nuclear.  Also, a few years ago there were some
supposedly major breakthroughs with a process called a Migatron?  Dimly
recall this

boron or beryllium involved, low level neutron flux, very low
level radioactivity, but enough power to make it very interesting

.Let
me not forget
.three cheers for wind, solar (PV and thermal), hydrogen,
tidal, ocean-thermal, hydro, coal, natural gas, shale oil, wood, methane,
and geothermal, as well
.whatever it takes to forever isolate the
industrialized democracies from energy dependencies on OPEC, and from the
strangleholds on supply that Russia (the former Soviet Union
.HA!! what a
practical joke!!), and Communist China and other joy boys might
introduce

.did I leave anything out?
.oh, and biomass
.sorry,
Neal

saved the best for last there, amigo

.and if anybody figures out
how to tap the zero point energy, engineer the quantum foam and flux of the
energetic vaccuum, as the good Dr. Hal Puthoff might say, then three cheers
and a hearty back slap for that chap or dudette as well

.buy them a pint
on my tab

  Maybe Dr. Mills at blacklight power has some major
breakthroughs, but that remains to be seen.

Tally ho!!  What?

Talking about storage

check this out

http://unisci.com/stories/20013/0802016.htm

The idea of storing energy by compressing air in underground mines may
sound like science fiction, but it's already being done in Alabama and
within a few years residents in Ohio will have their own compressed air
plant.

"The world's first compressed air energy storage plant was in Germany,"
says Lee Davis, plant manager for the Compressed Air Energy Storage
(CAES) Power Plant in McIntosh, Alabama. "The Alabama CAES plant was the
first in the United States when it opened in 1991."

The Alabama Electric Cooperative CAES plant works like this: On nights
and weekends, air is pumped underground and compressed, using low-cost
electricity, at pressures up to 1,078 pounds per square inch.

(Average air pressure at sea level is 14.7 pounds per square inch.)

During the day, at peak times, air is released and heated using a small
amount of natural gas. The heated air flows through a turbine generator
to produce electricity.

In conventional gas-turbine power generation, the air that drives the
turbine is compressed and heated using natural gas. On the other hand,
CAES technology needs less gas to produce power during periods of peak
demand because it uses air that has already been compressed and stored
underground.

With the success of the Alabama plant, developers began to look for
other suitable locations. "We looked at several other states before we
decided on an abandoned limestone mine in Ohio, but soon we hope to
explore some of the other promising CAES sites around the country and
begin constructing," says Michael McGill, Vice President of business
development at Norton Energy Storage.

"The proposed plant in Norton, OH, about 35 miles south of Cleveland,
will be the world's largest CAES plant," he says. "At peak operation,
the plant will store enough electricity to provide 675,000 homes with
electricity for just over two days."

While the idea of compressed air energy storage has been in existence
for the last decade, it is only now gaining popularity and support as
researchers look for energy alternatives.

"I think that it is important for all states to look at their
alternative energy generation resources and ways of storing energy,"
says John Turner, a researcher at National Renewable Energy Laboratory.
"Compressed air energy storage is definitely one."

_________

and how about this right cheer?

Electricity & air conditioning in one process;

http://www.discover.com/aug_01/gthere.html?article=news_chills.html

Yogi Goswami has a few questions for homeowners worried about high
electricity bills this summer. What if your house had its own power
plant to supply solar-generated electricity? What if it doubled as an
air conditioner? And what if the whole thing cost about half as much as
a conventional set of solar cells?

Goswami, a mechanical engineer and director of the Solar Energy and
Conversion Laboratory at the University of Florida, has devised a
low-cost generator/refrigerator that might be able to do all of the
above.

The device uses heat to boil a mix of ammonia and water. Even under
intense pressure, the ammonia vaporizes at temperatures as low as 150
degrees Fahrenheit, versus upward of 500 degrees for water alone. "That
means we can utilize cheap solar collectors, like the flat-plate
collectors you see on people's roofs," he says, "and that reduces the
capital cost to about half."

The ammonia passes through a turbine to generate electricity. In the
process, it transfers energy and grows cold enough to make ice--or to
air-condition a house. The ammonia vapor is then absorbed by water to
re-condense it.

The conversion efficiency of Goswami's process is about 28 percent,
versus 35 percent for a traditional power plant. But he notes that his
system could also squeeze extra energy out of conventional power plants'
waste heat, which is still hot enough to boil ammonia. Additionally,
geothermal heat could be used as the initial energy source.

Having run successful experiments, Goswami now wants to build a unit
large enough for a household. "Looking at the energy situation in this
country," he says, "I have a feeling that after this summer, more and
more people will want to have their own power source where they don't
entirely depend on the utility."

More on the ammonia/water thermal generator for electricity and air
conditioning;

http://www.napa.ufl.edu/2001news/solar.htm

GAINESVILLE, Fla. --- A network of steel pipes and tanks tucked behind a
small building at the University of Florida could lead to a new method
of creating two seemingly unrelated products -- electricity and
refrigeration -- by tapping into the power of the sun.

The pipes and tanks are the guts of a just-launched experiment to test
what Yogi Goswami, a UF professor of mechanical engineering, describes
as a novel solar- or geothermal-powered thermodynamic cycle.

"We.ve seen that it works in theory, and we.ve set up this experimental
system to prove that it works in practice," said Goswami, a specialist
in solar energy who also is director of UF.s Solar Energy & Energy
Conversion Laboratory.

The system, first described in the Journal of Solar Energy Engineering
last year, will attempt to verify what Goswami describes as a new
combination of two classic thermodynamic cycles: the Rankine, or steam
cycle, and the absorption-refrigeration cycle.

Both cycles are standard fare in engineering textbooks. The Rankine
cycle, typically found in large power plants, uses heat to boil water
and create pressurized steam, spinning a turbine and producing
electricity. The absorption-refrigeration cycle, seen in large
commercial refrigeration units, chills air through boiling and
condensing ammonia.

In Goswami.s experimental set-up, hot water is used to heat pressurized
ammonia past its boiling point, generating ammonia steam.

This is possible because ammonia maintained at the pressure required to
spin the turbine boils at a far lower temperature, around 212 degrees
Farenheit, than water in the same circumstances, which requires
temperatures of at 400 to 500 degrees.

In theory, the hot water would come from deep underground or solar
collectors, although for the purposes of the experiment a household
hot-water heater is used.

The next step is for the pressurized ammonia vapor to spin a turbine and
produce electricity (a process simulated in the experiment through using
a heat exchanger and expansion valve). The unique part is what happens
next.

As the ammonia spins the turbine, it actually falls below room
temperature, reaching lows of 32 degrees or lower -- cold enough to make
ice. The result can be used for
refrigeration or air conditioning.

"The unique thing we.re doing is that we can remove so much of the
energy from the ammonia in the turbine that it actually becomes very
cold," Goswami said. "We can then use that cold gas to our advantage for
air conditioning or to create ice."

The system is not the first to attempt to use solar or geothermal power
to drive a turbine, Goswami said. The Solar Energy Generating System, a
mammoth facility in the Mojave desert in Southern California, has used
specially designed hot water collectors to produce as much as 354
megawatts of power -- enough for 70,000 homes.

But the collectors are extremely expensive, making the power more costly
than electricity produced with fossil fuel technology.

"The problem has been that the capital cost is about $3,500 per kilowatt
of capacity," he said. "To make it competitive, we really need to bring
that cost to less than $2,000."

Goswami said his system is more economical because it can use
off-the-shelf collectors. Although it could be used on a large scale,
the system would be ideal for homes that could easily take advantage of
both the electricity and the refrigeration, he said.

"What we.re looking at is we can have a power plant to give you as low
as five kilowatts, so a power plant is good enough for a household," he
said.

Another application for the technology is to milk additional energy from
the hot waste water produced by conventional power plants. Even the most
efficient power plants today capture only 30 to 40 percent of the energy
in the fuel, releasing the bulk of the remainder in the form of heat --
much of it as hot water with sometimes damaging environmental
consequences.

Goswami said his system, installed on the outlet pipes for the hot
water, could leach 20 to 30 percent more energy from the system while
also cooling down the water. As a result, the plant could generate extra
electricity while gaining cooling capability for on-site refrigeration
or air conditioning needs, he said.

The research is funded with a $175,000 grant from the U.S. Department of
Energy, which is interested in developing the geothermal application of
the technology.

_____

Cool.  Y'all have fun.

I'm going offshore fishing outta Port Aransas.  Wish me luck.  Check with
y'all Saturday.
I want a bumper harvest of red snapper and shark

maybe some
tuna

trying to get my annual dose of methylmercury, doncha know

heh,
heh, heh

Ted
(This digest thing is really workin better for me.  Thanks for the
suggestion, Mr. Marc.)

.         .
| Message 11                                                          

Subject: Geothermal energy
From:    "gutierrez-lagatta" 
Date:    Wed, 8 Aug 2001 08:12:05 -0500

For those of you who do not subscribe, there is an article on
Geothermal energy for greenhouse applications in the Agugust 2001
issue of GMPro.  Subscriptions are free to qualified commercial
growers in the US.  For info go to www.greenbeam.com.

Adriana

.         .
| Message 12                                                          

Subject: RE: Pacu vs Bluegill
From:    "Mark Allen Wells" 
Date:    Wed, 8 Aug 2001 08:53:58 -0500

Steve

try giving this guy a call. Tell him you are
looking for a good hybrid bluegill supplier in Wisconsin.
You may have something close to home. He is your state
aquaculture extension agent.

Mr. Fred P. Binkowski

Senior Scientist
Great Lakes WATER Institute 
University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee
600 E. Greenfield Avenue
Milwaukee, WI 53204

(414) 382-1723
(414) 382-1700
FAX: (414) 382-1705
sturgeon 'at' csd.uwm.edu

let me know how it turns out,
mark

.         .
| Message 13                                                          

Subject: Re: Re:GM tomato thrives on salt (fwd)
From:    "Dorothy Mann" 
Date:    Wed, 8 Aug 2001 09:14:47 -0500

Hi David

I feel I am too inexperienced to do such important research. Please, someone
with experience- try this. It is important knowledge for us all.

Becky Hines

----- Original Message -----
From: "dyarrow" 

Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 1:09 PM
Subject: Re: Re:GM tomato thrives on salt (fwd)

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dorothy Mann" 
> 
> Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 8:32 AM
> Subject: Re: Re:GM tomato thrives on salt (fwd)
> > Hi-
> > Is it possible to get a small amount of ' sea solids' to experiment
with?
> > Becky Hines
>
> in 1983, the year before he died, maynard murray sold his florida
hydroponics
> farm to don jansen, a mennonite wheat and buffalo farmer from nebraska.
don
> jansen has kept the business going ever since, but has become completely
> discouraged to find anyone interested in dr. murray's remarkable research
> discoveries.  he is packing up and taking his system to haiti, where the
need
> for food is serious, and the need for a high quality, high efficiency food
> production technology acute.
>
> i interviewed don in january, and i will paste my short article about him
> below.  also added is a bit of text from dr. murray about "crystalloid"
water.
>
> don told me he had perhaps two tons of sea solids left, and was willing to
> share some with any serious experimenters.
>
> Don Jansen
> Ocean-grown Foods
> 3746 Luzon Street
> Ft. Myers, FL  33901
> 941-936-6716
>
> ~  David Yarrow
> Turtle EyeLand Sanctuary
> 44 Gilligan Road, East Greenbush, NY 12061
> 518-477-6100
> www.championtrees.org
>
> EXTRA TEXT: Tuesday morning, Jan. 2, 2001
>
> Nebraska Disciple
>
> In 1981, Maynard Murray, now retired to Florida, met Don Jansen, son of a
> Mennonite farmer in western Nebraska.  That year Don had spread sea solids
on
> his wheat field.  Surprised at the results, Don contacted his fertilizer
> supplier, Dr. Murray.
>
> After high school, Don Jansen had left his parents Mennonite farm to
pursue a
> college degree and professional career.  His elderly parents passed the
wheat
> and buffalo farm on to Don's brother.  But when this brother had a
crippling
> heart attack, Don left his urban career to return to the farm.
>
> Wheat grew unevenly on the farm's rolling Nebraska hills.  Fertilizer and
> topsoil washed off high spots and steep slopes to puddle in hollows.
Wheat on
>
> upper slopes was thin, weak, while bottom soils grew sturdy stands.
>
> Don spread Murray's sea solids on wheat fields, uncertain what would
happen.
> All his wheat grew stronger, stouter, fuller heads, and matured earlier.
> Differences between upland and bottomland was gone, and former bare
patches
> filled in and flourished.
>
> The Jansen farm included a small herd of 35 buffalo.  Don noticed right
away
> the buffalo preferred sea solids to regular salt blocks, and chose sea-fed
> crops over chemically fertilized.
>
> Buffalo were a tourist attraction, and significant source of extra income.
> They drew steady streams of guests to observe indigenous American
herbivore.
> But visitors were usually disappointed, because the herd stayed far from
the
> fence, and were hard to see.   Tourists found it unrewarding to admire
tiny
> brown specks half a mile away.
>
> Remembering Murray's cattle experiences, Don devised a solution for his
bovine
> voyeurs.  He fertilized along the fence with sea solids.  Soon the herd
hung
> out along the fence to munch the dark green, vigorous grass growing there.
> They would graze that area first in preference to all other pasture grass.
> This made the herd happy, and tourists, too.
>
> Ocean-Grown Foods
>
> In 1982, Dr. Murray invited Don to buy his 5.5 acre seaponic farm in Ft.
> Myers, Florida.  Don's acceptance was timely, for the doctor died in 1983.
In
> that last year, he paid Don steady visits to offer his information and
insight
> gathered in 45 years of research and medical practice.
>
> Don found sea solid dilutions gave the highest yields, and made
fertilizers,
> pesticides and herbicides unnecessary, since the nutrients are complete
and
> the plants resist disease and insects.  Nutrients were measurably higher
in
> sea solid grown foods, and blind taste tests proved them favorites.  Fruit
> trees responded enthusiastically to sea solid feedings.
>
> Since it grows without synthetic chemicals, Don's produce is Certified
> Organic, and his few intensive acres supply international organic
wholesalers.
> However, Don believes seaponics is beyond organic, since organic methods
alone
> do not insure the will have all the essential elements.  Seaponics is
ideal
> for areas where soils are rain-leached and depleted, such as south
Florida.
>
> America Doesn't Get It
>
> Don tried to tell others the tremendous success of sea solids gave him,
but
> found no one cared to listen.
>
> One grower asked for help with his dying citrus orchard.  Don delivered a
> series of sea solid soil treatments over the next year, and the citrus
decline
> vanished.  But Don heard nothing further from any farmers.
>
> Dominance of agriculture petrochemical industries.  Extension service,
farm
> supply, bank loan requirements, federal support policies all favor the
> chemical paradigm. inability to introduce new or different thinking.
Sever
> restriction on the ability of farming-which is to say, farmers-to change.
>
> "America just doesn't get it" lamented Don Jansen.  "I've tried for 25
years
> to make the case for sea solid fertilizers and more natural, balanced
methods.
> But Americans aren't ready to hear the truth."
>
> "And America isn't going to get it anytime soon, because the
> chemical-pharmaceutical-petroleum industry has too tight a grip on all the
> markets and everyone's thinking."
>
> Hydroponics in Haiti
>
> Last year, now in his 70's, but still stubbornly pursuing his work with
sea
> solids, Don decided to look elsewhere for collaborators in research.  He
> decided to go where the need is greatest, and began negotiations with
Haiti to
> transfer his sea solid hydroponics to this poverty riddled Caribbean
island
> nation.  With over-population, widespread poverty and unemployment,
limited
> arable farmland, and significant hunger and malnutrition, Haiti was in
> desperate need of an intensive food growing system.
>
> Don was able to negotiate with Gulf Coast University to collaborate on his
> Haiti hydroponics project.  The university will provide technical support,
> training, scientific design, research protocols, and documentation and
> publishing support.
>
> Imagine if.>
> Imagine that seawater-so abundant it's nearly free-is just what soils need
to
> grow healthy plants.  Three quarters of Earth's surface is ocean.
Something
> so ordinary, so freely available, is so effective as a balanced
fertilizer,
> fundamental and essential for health.
>
> Such a simple idea.  Yet it seems to work.  Wonderfully.
>
> But how to make money on a resource so cheap and available?  Unless a
business
> can control its product and price, survival in the marketplace is
short-lived.
> Enterprise can't turn a profit selling a natural resource beyond the
ownership
> boundaries of any nation.  Yet, an industry is needed to convert seawater
into
> a product usable on the scale of farmers and other husbandmen.
>
> In the 1980's, the reality was that American markets for farm supplies was
> already owned and controlled by a few companies that manufacture chemicals
for
> fertilizers.  Most are owned or controlled by oil companies and their
> subsidiaries.  The result of this extreme level of concentrated corporate
> control and vertical consolidation is that farmers have no options to
buying
> bags and tanks of synthetic chemicals.  Research and education services
are
> financed exclusively to investigate and encourage chemical industry
> approaches.
>
> Such well-established, deeply entrenched companies have too much vested
> interest to avoid their complete control of consensus over farm
technology,
> training and extension.  Any idea or effort for alternatives to the
chemical
> mindset is lost or smothered by the weight of consensus to keep doing it
by
> the same sure way.  Alien ideas are weeded out and ridiculed without any
trial
> or investigation.
>
> Today, this chemical mindset is being supplanted by ideas embracing
> biological, ecological and social dimensions of farm technology.  Farmers
are
> now accountable for the impact of their practices on the biosphere.  "Cost
> effectiveness" is giving ground to "sustainability" as research priority,
> policy guide and sales slogan.  Alternative techniques and products are
> available to any grower motivated to search for them.  Volumes of
information
> are clicks away on the internet, in every agriculture library, from any
> bookseller.
>
> *******************
>
> extra text from dr. murray:
>
> I began my 45 years of research because I felt we should put all the
elements
> back into soil in the same proportion as in the sea.  I feel strongly
plants
> should have the opportunity to take up any element they might need.  Also,
a
> plant may take up elements that aren't critical for its physiology, but
> required by animals in organic form, and only plants perform the
> transformation.
>
> In topsoil, elements are in a colloidal state, defined as "a gelatinous
> substance, which-dissolved in liquid-will not diffuse readily through
> membranes." Colloidal minerals are in suspension, not truly in solution.
>
> In the sea, elements are in liquid crystalloid state, defined as "a
> crystallizable substance, which-dissolved in liquid-will diffuse readily
> through membranes."
>
> Unlike a colloid state, liquid crystalloid of seawater retains only enough
of
> each element needed to maintain consistent chemical balance.  An excess of
any
> element will drop to the ocean bottom, where it is taken up only if plant
or
> animal life deplete it from seawater.  Thus, chemical balance is
maintained
>
>
>

.         .
| Message 14                                                          

Subject: Re: Fish data needed
From:    Jenny Reed 
Date:    Wed, 8 Aug 2001 10:06:54 -0400 (EDT)

> 
>   Zero response from the group so far. I've talked with a few in southern

Well, that's not a good thing.  I think I'll try to get the ball rolling 
by going first.  :)

> >you could share your production rates, prior, current and projected.
> Include
> >species including exotics (eel, mussel, fresh water shrimp,etc

.), water
> >quality controls and waste stream management, size of operation and
> location

Okay.  Current production rate: 0!!!!!  

That's okay.  I don't have any fish.  Or even a fish tank.  Yet.  

Projected:  hm.  Honestly, I'm still trying to decide what scale would be 
appropriate for me.  Am I interested in producing for myself only, and calling 
this an expensive hobby?  Am I interested in producing enough to sell at the 
local farmer's market, or in opening a CSA?  Am I interested in seriously 
marketing and trying to make this my primary living?  Hm.  I don't know.  And 
that makes it hard to project.  

Sorry
. my data isn't at all useful to you.  I'm just hoping that, by 
posting this, I can shame somebody with useful data into answering you.  :)

.         .
| Message 15                                                          

Subject: RE: Report on farmer's market
From:    "Mark Allen Wells" 
Date:    Wed, 8 Aug 2001 09:28:56 -0500

>Thanks to all of you for your help and suggestions for 
additional resources.  I especially enjoyed the direct 
quotations from Jefferson's writings.  

Your post made my day, Miriam

I had a very long night
at work and wasn't in a good mood. I came home and fed
my fish, took my boots off and checked the mail
.your post
and a few others made the problems at work vanish

I'm glad I could be of help.  I love this list.

I'm glad you liked the Jefferson quotes
.there are some 
great online resources.  

Mark

.         .
| Message 16                                                          

Subject: Re: Re:GM tomato thrives on salt (fwd)
From:    "bennett" 
Date:    Wed, 8 Aug 2001 11:05:04 -0400

>I feel I am too inexperienced to do such important research. Please,
someone
>with experience- try this. It is important knowledge for us all.
>
I'd LOVE to do it!  My problem is I'm too poor to pay Attention!  It all
takes money, unfortunately.
I'm trying to write a paper as a forerunner to getting a grant or loan, but
am not getting much help with some "bibliographical proof" that I need.
Yes, I've studied and done this, this and this, but I didn't keep track of
the authors and quotes, etc. of the things I experimented with.  Now, they
want an extensive bibliography and I'm afraid I can't come up the info in
time to make the deadline.
    Whine, whine

.         .
| Message 17                                                          

Subject: bluegill tank
From:    "bennett" 
Date:    Wed, 8 Aug 2001 13:26:11 -0400

Another greenhouse is about to go up on our hillside.  I'm considering
putting a bluegill tank along a long wall
.64' long give or take.:-)  This
will be only 3 or 4 feet wide and will act as a heat sink in winter.  What
depth do you all think would be the MINIMUM for such a tank?  How many giant
hybrid blue gill might this first be stocked with?
    D. is sometimes for Donna, though my parents said it was for Don't.

.         .
| Message 18                                                          

Subject: Re: Used oil heaters
From:    "Brent Bingham" 
Date:    Wed, 8 Aug 2001 10:58:33 -0700

Not to start a debate but a word of warning! Check that the unit you are
going to buy is UL listed. We were denied an insurance payment because
 a unlisted heating device caught the ceiling on fire. They were very smart,
the unit we looked at buying had a UL sticker but the one we purchased on
sale was bigger and per the salesman a better deal but we did not look when
it arrived. The brand only had one model that was UL. Let the buyer beware,
I guess. We need a buyers co-op or something.
Brent
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick" 

Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 10:14 PM
Subject: Re: Used oil heaters

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jay Myers" 
> 
> Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 5:57 AM
> Subject: Used oil heaters
>
>
> <<>>
>
> > Harold Electric Co.  800 541-8910
> > They also have a web-site - I've seen this one work at a Boise Farm Show
> in
> > November outside. It burned clean and put out a huge amount of heat.
They
> > sell a kit so you can make out of 2  55 gal drums for about $1600.  Used
> oil
> > gives 140,000 BTU's/ gallon.
> >
> > Jay
> > Panama City Beach, Fl.
> >
>
>  http://www.heco.net/Wasteoil.htm
>
> (link to Harold Electric Company HECO oil burner site)
>
>

.         .
| Message 19                                                          

Subject: Adriana's New Thread
From:    DAVEINBHAM 'at' aol.com
Date:    Wed, 8 Aug 2001 14:09:03 EDT

Adriana,
So you want to start a new thread ? OK, but what do you have 
against discussing sex, religion or politics ?
I do not know much about the seed trade except that there is a 
helluve markup between what the grower is paid and what seed 
sell for.
Next time you find yourself in downtown Birmingham, go by 
Massey's  on 2nd Avenue North between 
24 th. street & 25 th street. Go to the seed counter and find Shirley.
( Say " Hello" to her from me. We went th high school together. 
Phillips High, class of '59. ) Now, look at the gallon glass jugs full of 
seeds on the shelves behind Shirley's counter. There are about a 
hundred of them, Shirley will weigh out what you want by the
 fraction of an ounce and sell them to you for a small fraction of 
what you would pay off the seed rack at any of the local chain stores.
Massey's has been doing this and making a profit and been in 
business over a hundred years. I am sure many other cities 
have something similar.
This only illustrates the tremendous markup between wholesale and 
normal retail.

More information at American Seed Trade Association.
   http://www.amseed.com/

I will write more when I get time.

Regards,
Dave

.         .
| Message 4                                                           

Subject: Aquaponics/hydroponics for seed production?
From:    "gutierrez-lagatta" 
Date:    Tue, 7 Aug 2001 03:41:16 -0500

Taking Emmett's sage advice - I'd like to start a new thread, taking
great care to steer away from politics, religion and women(men, I
assume are OK to discuss? :>)).

Has anybody done any investigation into the commercial production of
vegetable or herb seeds using a hydroponic or aquaponic production
facility?  Every time I order seeds I am amazed at the cost, with some
lettuces and basil (notably Purple Ruffles) at >$100/#.  The high
price of Purple Ruffles Basil at $338/# compared to Genovese which
runs $22/# is attributed to low yields.

Is it possible that the higher planting densities of
hydroponics/aquaponics and the optimal nutrients provided the plants
would provide higher yields and better quality seeds vs. field grown
plants?  We KNOW that we can grow healthier plants in a shorter time.
I would assume this would translate into healthier seeds and better
plants in the second generation.

>From a business perspective it may or may not make sense.  Perhaps the
long "harvest time" required for seed production is not a good use of
greenhouse space compared to the revenue potential from other crops.
I know there are some very exacting requirements to prevent cross
pollination of similar species.   I expect that there is a significant
labor component involved in  the separation of the seeds from the
plant material and some very specific handling requirements regarding
temperature and humidity.

Just a thought, does anybody know anything on this subject?

Adriana

.         .
| Message 20                                                          

Subject: Re: Adriana's New Thread
From:    "gutierrez-lagatta" 
Date:    Wed, 8 Aug 2001 13:27:39 -0500

Yes Dave, but Massey's (been there already :>)) doesn't do extensive
testing or carry mizuna, tatsoi, revolution lettuce, purple ruffles
basil, merveille de quatre staziones, etc. etc., etc. As to the
difference between bulk and retail individual package, all that
handling costs money - heck, I would bet that most produce has a
greater investment in the boxes than in thwhat the farmer gets paid
for the content

that's why grocery store herbs cost $30+/pound.It's not the common stuff that is pricey, it's the more unusual
stuff.> Massey's has been doing this and making a profit and been in
> business over a hundred years. I am sure many other cities
> have something similar.
> This only illustrates the tremendous markup between wholesale and
> normal retail.>

Adriana

.         .
| Message 21                                                          

Subject: bacteria
From:    Andrei Calciu
Date:    Wed, 8 Aug 2001 15:00:51 -0400

Can the bacteria in the biofilter survive if the biofilter is submerged all
the time?

-_______________
Andrei D. Calciu (VA-4270)
NEC America, Inc.
14040 Park Center Dr.
Herndon, VA 20171-3227

Voice: 703-834-4273
Fax: 703-787-6613

This message and any attachment are confidential.  If you are not the
intended recipient, please telephone or email the sender and delete the
message and any attachment from your system. If you are not the intended
recipient you must not copy this message or attachment or disclose the
contents to any other person.

.         .
| Message 22                                                          

Subject: Re: bluegill tank
From:    "Arlos" 
Date:    Wed, 8 Aug 2001 12:26:27 -0700

Donna,
  How stable is your hill and what degree of slope?. Winter rains and
hydraulic pressure might be something to consider.  Expansive clay soil and
pools don't play well together.  Get a soils report and save your pennies
for a P.E.
  Water is approx
 64 lb per cubic foot. Engineered drilled piers are the
only way to keep this from moving unless you cut away the hill and allow for
drainage. Blow outs are a ____!

Arlos
-----Original Message-----
From: bennett 
To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com 
Date: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 10:27 AM
Subject: bluegill tank

>Another greenhouse is about to go up on our hillside.  I'm considering
>putting a bluegill tank along a long wall
.64' long give or take.:-)  This
>will be only 3 or 4 feet wide and will act as a heat sink in winter.  What
>depth do you all think would be the MINIMUM for such a tank?  How many
giant
>hybrid blue gill might this first be stocked with?
>    D. is sometimes for Donna, though my parents said it was for Don't.
>
>

.         .
| Message 23                                                          

Subject: Re: Used oil heaters
From:    "Arlos" 
Date:    Wed, 8 Aug 2001 12:38:26 -0700

Brent,

  Great point. with all the conversation of  backyard Biogas stills. One
little mishap and your won't be in good hands with All State. UL,UR, AGA and
others are the secret to getting any hope of a permit, much less an
insurance settlement. As interesting as the threads have been to read on
alternative energy sources I certainly don't have the inclination to
reinvent the wheel anytime soon. I was just listening to KGO radio and the
local utility provider PG&E just disconnected a house in Correlitos ,CA and
told them with their Solar system (includes a double throw back switch) it
would cost the home owner $600,000 to reconnect them. apparently PG&E
couldn't be reached for a comment. Powers that be don't like having their
feather ruffled.

Arlos
-----Original Message-----
From: Brent Bingham 
To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com 
Date: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: Used oil heaters

>Not to start a debate but a word of warning! Check that the unit you are
>going to buy is UL listed. We were denied an insurance payment because
> a unlisted heating device caught the ceiling on fire. They were very
smart,
>the unit we looked at buying had a UL sticker but the one we purchased on
>sale was bigger and per the salesman a better deal but we did not look when
>it arrived. The brand only had one model that was UL. Let the buyer beware,
>I guess. We need a buyers co-op or something.
>Brent
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Nick" 
>
>Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 10:14 PM
>Subject: Re: Used oil heaters
>
>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jay Myers" 
>> 
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 5:57 AM
>> Subject: Used oil heaters
>>
>>
>> <<>>
>>
>> > Harold Electric Co.  800 541-8910
>> > They also have a web-site - I've seen this one work at a Boise Farm
Show
>> in
>> > November outside. It burned clean and put out a huge amount of heat.
>They
>> > sell a kit so you can make out of 2  55 gal drums for about $1600.
Used
>> oil
>> > gives 140,000 BTU's/ gallon.
>> >
>> > Jay
>> > Panama City Beach, Fl.
>> >
>>
>>  http://www.heco.net/Wasteoil.htm
>>
>> (link to Harold Electric Company HECO oil burner site)
>>
>>
>
>

.         .
| Message 24                                                          

Subject: Re: bacteria
From:    "Arlos" 
Date:    Wed, 8 Aug 2001 12:59:28 -0700

Andrei,

  Yes, they can  survive and thrive provided the are kept aerobic and have
food. I use a expanded ceramic foam medium in an downflow configuration in a
vertical column. Air is via hub and lateral below the effluent hub and
lateral and vented with a Honeywell off gas vent. This has allowed me to
design series systems with common influent and effluent manifolds for system
expansion. The bed is 2/3 of the vertical column height.It takes about 30
days to seed a bed. A flow restrictor prevents high flow and loss of
bacterial stock. Flow through a single bed is kept below 6 gpm per cubic
foot of bed. No backwash is ever needed as a clarifier is upstream to settle
out solids. If stocking density is high, a foam fraction protein skimmer has
to be put in line as proteins will foul the wet sump biofilter. Sand and
gravel don't offer near the surface area that an expanded ceramic foam or
sintered glass offers and in other applications takes an enormous amount of
flow to rinse the bed up. A UV lamp rated at 254 nM down stream from the
biofilter will keep the water in near pristine condition. Hope this helps

Arlos
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrei Calciu 
To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com 
Date: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 12:09 PM
Subject: bacteria

>
>Can the bacteria in the biofilter survive if the biofilter is submerged all
>the time?
>
>-_______________
>Andrei D. Calciu (VA-4270)
>NEC America, Inc.
>14040 Park Center Dr.
>Herndon, VA 20171-3227
>
>Voice: 703-834-4273
>Fax: 703-787-6613
>
>This message and any attachment are confidential.  If you are not the
>intended recipient, please telephone or email the sender and delete the
>message and any attachment from your system. If you are not the intended
>recipient you must not copy this message or attachment or disclose the
>contents to any other person.
>
>
>

.         .
| Message 25                                                          

Subject: New Alchemy And Green Center Archives - Falmouth, MA
From:    kris book 
Date:    Wed, 8 Aug 2001 15:08:42 -0600

This greenhouse is heated by compost, it only costs $40 a year to heat in
Ma.

http://www.vsb.cape.com/~afs/greencenter/home.htm

.         .
| Message 26                                                          

Subject: # of fish per tank
From:    Teresa Blackwood 
Date:    Wed, 08 Aug 2001 15:10:24 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

=_NextPart_000_0057_01C1201C.4006DFD0
Content-Type: text/plain;
        charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

1st I want to thank everyone who submitted info about the different =
kinds of fish we can use in an aquaponics system.  All of your info was =
very valuable and it helped us come to a decision about what to use.

Now I need another question answered. How many hybrid striped bass can =
be grown in a 1,000 gallon tank?  I cant seem to find any info that is =
not pond related.  Everything mentions tanks in passing and nothing in =
detail.  If anyone can help me w/this I'd greatly appreciate it :)=20

Thanyou in advance :)=20
Teresa

=_NextPart_000_0057_01C1201C.4006DFD0
Content-Type: text/html;
        charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable








1st I want to thank everyone who =
submitted info=20
about the different kinds of fish we can use in an aquaponics =
system.  All=20
of your info was very valuable and it helped us come to a decision about =
what to=20
use.
 
Now I need another question answered. =
How many=20
hybrid striped bass can be grown in a 1,000 gallon tank?  I cant =
seem to=20
find any info that is not pond related.  Everything mentions tanks =
in=20
passing and nothing in detail.  If anyone can help me w/this I'd =
greatly=20
appreciate it :) 
 
Thanyou in advance :) 
Teresa

=_NextPart_000_0057_01C1201C.4006DFD0--

.         .
| Message 27                                                          

Subject: more ??? on # of fish per tank
From:    "bennett" 
Date:    Wed, 8 Aug 2001 19:25:33 -0400

    How about the hybrid bluegill?  How many hybrid blue gill can be grown
out in a 1,000 gallon tank?

    >Now I need another question answered. How many hybrid striped bass can
be grown in a 1,000 gallon tank?  I cant >seem to find any info that is not
pond related.  Everything mentions tanks in passing and nothing in detail.
If anyone >can help me w/this I'd greatly appreciate it :)

.         .
| Message 28                                                          

Subject: Re: Used oil heaters
From:    "Brent Bingham" 
Date:    Wed, 8 Aug 2001 16:58:23 -0700

I bet some one will blame Bush. What does Governor Davis have to say?
India and China have literally thousands of back yard digesters. It is
amazing they have almost no problems.
Brent
----- Original Message -----
From: "Arlos" 

Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: Used oil heaters

> Brent,
>
>   Great point. with all the conversation of  backyard Biogas stills. One
> little mishap and your won't be in good hands with All State. UL,UR, AGA
and
> others are the secret to getting any hope of a permit, much less an
> insurance settlement. As interesting as the threads have been to read on
> alternative energy sources I certainly don't have the inclination to
> reinvent the wheel anytime soon. I was just listening to KGO radio and the
> local utility provider PG&E just disconnected a house in Correlitos ,CA
and
> told them with their Solar system (includes a double throw back switch) it
> would cost the home owner $600,000 to reconnect them. apparently PG&E
> couldn't be reached for a comment. Powers that be don't like having their
> feather ruffled.
>
> Arlos
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brent Bingham 
> To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com 
> Date: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 11:01 AM
> Subject: Re: Used oil heaters
>
>
> >Not to start a debate but a word of warning! Check that the unit you are
> >going to buy is UL listed. We were denied an insurance payment because
> > a unlisted heating device caught the ceiling on fire. They were very
> smart,
> >the unit we looked at buying had a UL sticker but the one we purchased on
> >sale was bigger and per the salesman a better deal but we did not look
when
> >it arrived. The brand only had one model that was UL. Let the buyer
beware,
> >I guess. We need a buyers co-op or something.
> >Brent
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Nick" 
> >
> >Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 10:14 PM
> >Subject: Re: Used oil heaters
> >
> >
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Jay Myers" 
> >> 
> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 5:57 AM
> >> Subject: Used oil heaters
> >>
> >>
> >> <<>>
> >>
> >> > Harold Electric Co.  800 541-8910
> >> > They also have a web-site - I've seen this one work at a Boise Farm
> Show
> >> in
> >> > November outside. It burned clean and put out a huge amount of heat.
> >They
> >> > sell a kit so you can make out of 2  55 gal drums for about $1600.
> Used
> >> oil
> >> > gives 140,000 BTU's/ gallon.
> >> >
> >> > Jay
> >> > Panama City Beach, Fl.
> >> >
> >>
> >>  http://www.heco.net/Wasteoil.htm
> >>
> >> (link to Harold Electric Company HECO oil burner site)
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>

.         .
| Message 29                                                          

Subject: Re: Sea salt
From:    "Brent Bingham" 
Date:    Wed, 8 Aug 2001 17:23:13 -0700

I believe a water softener works almost exactly on this principal?
Brent
----- Original Message -----
From: "dyarrow" 

Cc: ""Myles Harston"" ; "Jared Milarch"
; "Terry Mock" 
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 12:17 PM
Subject: Re: Sea salt

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jimtee" 
> 
> Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 8:44 AM
> Subject: Sea salt
> > Does anyone have any thoughts about using the salt water aquarium salt
as
> > the source for using on plants ? It is readily available at tropical
fish
> shops.
> > jimtee
>
> according to dr. maynard murray, the key to success is to use a complete
sea
> salt mixture so that all elements are present in exactly the same ratios
as in
> sea water.  the original reason for this choice was murray's observation
that
> the salts in human blood plasm are in nearly the exact ratios as in sea
water.
> any leaching of the sea salt will extract the more soluble mineral
salts --
> mostly the trace elements.  the lighter elements -- sodium, potassium,
> calcium, magnesium -- will tend to remain in crystalline states, while the
> heavier metals are dissolved and washed out.  dr. murray believed his
method
> worked because he carefully chose his sea solids so all the elements
remain in
> the same ratios as in sea water.  this means he chose his sea solids
harvested
> from areas of the earth where there is essentially no rainfall -- mostly
from
> baja california.
>
> raw, unrefined sea salt should be a gray or greenish color.  if the salts
are
> white, they're refined to some degree.  all the so-called sea salts in
natural
> food stores i've seen were white and at least partially refined, meaning
> missing the trace minerals.  except a product named "celtic sea salt,"
> although i am pretty sure this product is produced in open air clay beds
where
> it is subject to leaching by rainfall, and is further washed by water as
part
> of its production process.
>
> for what it's worth, i'll mention that unrefined sea salt is unsuitable as
a
> seasoning for human cooking and food prep because it is too high in
magnesium,
> which can lower blood pressure, slow heart rate and cause other
undesireable
> physiological changes.  i now thgis, because it has happened to me (got my
> heart rate downto 58 per minutes).  then again, on the other side, refined
> table salt -- sodium chloride -- is a major factor in hypertension, heart
> disease, artheriosclerosis, and other conditions.  everything in balance.
>
> i have witnessed this with a jar of "nigari" -- the natural salts used by
> traditional japanese to coagulate the proteins in soymilk to curdle the
milk
> into tofu.  natural nigari is the salt remaining after the sodium chloride
is
> washed out; traditionally this was done by hanging a sackof raw, crude sea
> salt in a canvas sack outdoors or in a cellar. the salt attracts and
condenses
> water from the air, which then washes down through the salt, dissolving
the
> heavier elements and slowly migrates down through the sack.  this
> salt-saturated solution slowly drips out the bottom of the cloth sack, and
> this briny liquor is captured in a container positioned under the sack.
> dehydrated, this liquor becomes "nigari" and is loaded withthe heavier
> elements in ionic salt forms.  it is a medium beige color of fine grained
> crystals.  added to soymilk, these strong electrolytes attract and hold
the
> soymilk proteins, causing them to clump together and coagulate out of
> solution, becoming tofu bean curd.
>
> anyway, i put my nigari in a jar with a loose-fitting lid, and in the
summer,
> the high humidity air seeped into the jar and the water condensed into the
> nigari, creating a thick soupy broth of quasi-liquid crystals.  after two
> months, the bottom of the jar was a dark brown, while the upper layers of
> nigari were several shades lighter color.  the heavy elements were
dissolved
> and migrated to the bottom, leaving the lighter elements in the upper
layers.
>
> so, now, imagine the jar full of nigari is topsoil, and the humid air is
acid
> rain.  guess which elements leach out of topsoil first?
>
> my guess is that salt water aquarium salt is partially refined, which
means
> the trace elements are reduced.
>
> also note that dr. murray used a dilute solution of sea water or sea
solids
> for his experiments.  and these applications were made infrequently --
every
> five years or more.  not annually the way chemical farmers spread their
n-p-k
> fertilizers and lime.  this reduces the chance the lighter elements --
> especially sodium -- will accumulate and slowly "poison" the soil.
>
> another interesting agricultural soil amndment is a montmorillonite clay
from
> central utah.  one such product is "azomite" trademarked by a company in
> missoui, altho the clay is ined by other companies using other names:
elemite,
> mezotrace, etc.  "azomite" is an acronym for "a-to-z of minearls including
> trace elements," and contains over 70 elements.  it was written up in a
> chapter of christopher bird's remarkable book "secrets of the soil."  see
> www.azomite.com.
>
> anyway, this clay is really an ancient sea floor sediment.  the great salt
> lake is the last dregs of a vast inland ocean trapped amid the rocky
> mountains, slowly drying up.  this clay is the debris that settled out of
that
> ocean and sedimented on the sea floor.  it includes not only the minerals
> precipitating out, but all the dead organisms -- from microbes and algae
to
> fish and shellfish -- that iled up on the sea floor.  so the clay is a
kind of
> geological compost built up over eons on the sea floor.  as a sea
sediment, it
> is rich in trace elements much like murray's sea solids.  i suspect the
> lighter minerals tend to remain in solution longer, and so the sediment is
> more the heavier (trace) elements.
>
> in considering this geological compost, be aware that the iron ore
deposits
> (hematite, etc.) we mine to make steel are really sea floor sediments
formed
> in earth's very early oceans.  primeval bacteria thrived by feeding on the
> energy rich iron salts, and after the microbes extracted energy from the
> ferrous salts, the iron preciptated out of solution to form sea floor
> sediments.  after a few million years, enough iron was removed from sea
water
> to allow oxygen to remain in watery solution, and new organisms appeared
able
> to take advantage of this new chemistry.  eventually, bluegreen algae
appeared
> (spirulina) that coud capture sunshine to split water and store the energy
> released as sugar, releasing oxygen.
>
> at any rate. the utah clay has a 70 year history of being a dramatic plant
> nutrient.  other companies are packing tis stuff in capsules and selling
it as
> colloidal mineral supplement for people and animals; so swear it prevents
> cancer.  for more about the incredible effects of this trace element
> fertilizer in horticulture, see:
> www.championtrees.org\topsoil\JaredM.htm
> www.championtrees.org\topsoil\EarthPlus.htm
>
> good luck figuring out how to use this material in an aquaponic system.
>
> ~  David Yarrow
> Turtle EyeLand Sanctuary
> 44 Gilligan Road, East Greenbush, NY 12061
> 518-477-6100
> www.championtrees.org
>
>

.         .
| Message 30                                                          

Subject: Re: Sea salt
From:    "Arlos" 
Date:    Wed, 8 Aug 2001 17:30:40 -0700

Water softners use sodium chloride in a monovalant exchange when cation
resin beds are regenerated.

Arlos
-----Original Message-----
From: Brent Bingham 
To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com 
Date: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 5:25 PM
Subject: Re: Sea salt

>I believe a water softener works almost exactly on this principal?
>Brent
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "dyarrow" 
>
>Cc: ""Myles Harston"" ; "Jared Milarch"
>; "Terry Mock" 
>Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 12:17 PM
>Subject: Re: Sea salt
>
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "jimtee" 
>> 
>> Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 8:44 AM
>> Subject: Sea salt
>> > Does anyone have any thoughts about using the salt water aquarium salt
>as
>> > the source for using on plants ? It is readily available at tropical
>fish
>> shops.
>> > jimtee
>>
>> according to dr. maynard murray, the key to success is to use a complete
>sea
>> salt mixture so that all elements are present in exactly the same ratios
>as in
>> sea water.  the original reason for this choice was murray's observation
>that
>> the salts in human blood plasm are in nearly the exact ratios as in sea
>water.
>> any leaching of the sea salt will extract the more soluble mineral
>salts --
>> mostly the trace elements.  the lighter elements -- sodium, potassium,
>> calcium, magnesium -- will tend to remain in crystalline states, while
the
>> heavier metals are dissolved and washed out.  dr. murray believed his
>method
>> worked because he carefully chose his sea solids so all the elements
>remain in
>> the same ratios as in sea water.  this means he chose his sea solids
>harvested
>> from areas of the earth where there is essentially no rainfall -- mostly
>from
>> baja california.
>>
>> raw, unrefined sea salt should be a gray or greenish color.  if the salts
>are
>> white, they're refined to some degree.  all the so-called sea salts in
>natural
>> food stores i've seen were white and at least partially refined, meaning
>> missing the trace minerals.  except a product named "celtic sea salt,"
>> although i am pretty sure this product is produced in open air clay beds
>where
>> it is subject to leaching by rainfall, and is further washed by water as
>part
>> of its production process.
>>
>> for what it's worth, i'll mention that unrefined sea salt is unsuitable
as
>a
>> seasoning for human cooking and food prep because it is too high in
>magnesium,
>> which can lower blood pressure, slow heart rate and cause other
>undesireable
>> physiological changes.  i now thgis, because it has happened to me (got
my
>> heart rate downto 58 per minutes).  then again, on the other side,
refined
>> table salt -- sodium chloride -- is a major factor in hypertension, heart
>> disease, artheriosclerosis, and other conditions.  everything in balance.
>>
>> i have witnessed this with a jar of "nigari" -- the natural salts used by
>> traditional japanese to coagulate the proteins in soymilk to curdle the
>milk
>> into tofu.  natural nigari is the salt remaining after the sodium
chloride
>is
>> washed out; traditionally this was done by hanging a sackof raw, crude
sea
>> salt in a canvas sack outdoors or in a cellar. the salt attracts and
>condenses
>> water from the air, which then washes down through the salt, dissolving
>the
>> heavier elements and slowly migrates down through the sack.  this
>> salt-saturated solution slowly drips out the bottom of the cloth sack,
and
>> this briny liquor is captured in a container positioned under the sack.
>> dehydrated, this liquor becomes "nigari" and is loaded withthe heavier
>> elements in ionic salt forms.  it is a medium beige color of fine grained
>> crystals.  added to soymilk, these strong electrolytes attract and hold
>the
>> soymilk proteins, causing them to clump together and coagulate out of
>> solution, becoming tofu bean curd.
>>
>> anyway, i put my nigari in a jar with a loose-fitting lid, and in the
>summer,
>> the high humidity air seeped into the jar and the water condensed into
the
>> nigari, creating a thick soupy broth of quasi-liquid crystals.  after two
>> months, the bottom of the jar was a dark brown, while the upper layers of
>> nigari were several shades lighter color.  the heavy elements were
>dissolved
>> and migrated to the bottom, leaving the lighter elements in the upper
>layers.
>>
>> so, now, imagine the jar full of nigari is topsoil, and the humid air is
>acid
>> rain.  guess which elements leach out of topsoil first?
>>
>> my guess is that salt water aquarium salt is partially refined, which
>means
>> the trace elements are reduced.
>>
>> also note that dr. murray used a dilute solution of sea water or sea
>solids
>> for his experiments.  and these applications were made infrequently --
>every
>> five years or more.  not annually the way chemical farmers spread their
>n-p-k
>> fertilizers and lime.  this reduces the chance the lighter elements --
>> especially sodium -- will accumulate and slowly "poison" the soil.
>>
>> another interesting agricultural soil amndment is a montmorillonite clay
>from
>> central utah.  one such product is "azomite" trademarked by a company in
>> missoui, altho the clay is ined by other companies using other names:
>elemite,
>> mezotrace, etc.  "azomite" is an acronym for "a-to-z of minearls
including
>> trace elements," and contains over 70 elements.  it was written up in a
>> chapter of christopher bird's remarkable book "secrets of the soil."  see
>> www.azomite.com.
>>
>> anyway, this clay is really an ancient sea floor sediment.  the great
salt
>> lake is the last dregs of a vast inland ocean trapped amid the rocky
>> mountains, slowly drying up.  this clay is the debris that settled out of
>that
>> ocean and sedimented on the sea floor.  it includes not only the minerals
>> precipitating out, but all the dead organisms -- from microbes and algae
>to
>> fish and shellfish -- that iled up on the sea floor.  so the clay is a
>kind of
>> geological compost built up over eons on the sea floor.  as a sea
>sediment, it
>> is rich in trace elements much like murray's sea solids.  i suspect the
>> lighter minerals tend to remain in solution longer, and so the sediment
is
>> more the heavier (trace) elements.
>>
>> in considering this geological compost, be aware that the iron ore
>deposits
>> (hematite, etc.) we mine to make steel are really sea floor sediments
>formed
>> in earth's very early oceans.  primeval bacteria thrived by feeding on
the
>> energy rich iron salts, and after the microbes extracted energy from the
>> ferrous salts, the iron preciptated out of solution to form sea floor
>> sediments.  after a few million years, enough iron was removed from sea
>water
>> to allow oxygen to remain in watery solution, and new organisms appeared
>able
>> to take advantage of this new chemistry.  eventually, bluegreen algae
>appeared
>> (spirulina) that coud capture sunshine to split water and store the
energy
>> released as sugar, releasing oxygen.
>>
>> at any rate. the utah clay has a 70 year history of being a dramatic
plant
>> nutrient.  other companies are packing tis stuff in capsules and selling
>it as
>> colloidal mineral supplement for people and animals; so swear it prevents
>> cancer.  for more about the incredible effects of this trace element
>> fertilizer in horticulture, see:
>> www.championtrees.org\topsoil\JaredM.htm
>> www.championtrees.org\topsoil\EarthPlus.htm
>>
>> good luck figuring out how to use this material in an aquaponic system.
>>
>> ~  David Yarrow
>> Turtle EyeLand Sanctuary
>> 44 Gilligan Road, East Greenbush, NY 12061
>> 518-477-6100
>> www.championtrees.org
>>
>>
>
>

.         .
| Message 31                                                          

Subject: Re: Used oil heaters
From:    "Arlos" 
Date:    Wed, 8 Aug 2001 17:31:55 -0700

I wouldn't be suprise if we don't see Gov. /davis in the next Macys Day
parade

-----Original Message-----
From: Brent Bingham 
To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com 
Date: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: Used oil heaters

>I bet some one will blame Bush. What does Governor Davis have to say?
>India and China have literally thousands of back yard digesters. It is
>amazing they have almost no problems.
>Brent
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Arlos" 
>
>Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 12:38 PM
>Subject: Re: Used oil heaters
>
>
>> Brent,
>>
>>   Great point. with all the conversation of  backyard Biogas stills. One
>> little mishap and your won't be in good hands with All State. UL,UR, AGA
>and
>> others are the secret to getting any hope of a permit, much less an
>> insurance settlement. As interesting as the threads have been to read on
>> alternative energy sources I certainly don't have the inclination to
>> reinvent the wheel anytime soon. I was just listening to KGO radio and
the
>> local utility provider PG&E just disconnected a house in Correlitos ,CA
>and
>> told them with their Solar system (includes a double throw back switch)
it
>> would cost the home owner $600,000 to reconnect them. apparently PG&E
>> couldn't be reached for a comment. Powers that be don't like having their
>> feather ruffled.
>>
>> Arlos
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Brent Bingham 
>> To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com 
>> Date: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 11:01 AM
>> Subject: Re: Used oil heaters
>>
>>
>> >Not to start a debate but a word of warning! Check that the unit you are
>> >going to buy is UL listed. We were denied an insurance payment because
>> > a unlisted heating device caught the ceiling on fire. They were very
>> smart,
>> >the unit we looked at buying had a UL sticker but the one we purchased
on
>> >sale was bigger and per the salesman a better deal but we did not look
>when
>> >it arrived. The brand only had one model that was UL. Let the buyer
>beware,
>> >I guess. We need a buyers co-op or something.
>> >Brent
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: "Nick" 
>> >
>> >Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 10:14 PM
>> >Subject: Re: Used oil heaters
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Jay Myers" 
>> >> 
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 5:57 AM
>> >> Subject: Used oil heaters
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> <<>>
>> >>
>> >> > Harold Electric Co.  800 541-8910
>> >> > They also have a web-site - I've seen this one work at a Boise Farm
>> Show
>> >> in
>> >> > November outside. It burned clean and put out a huge amount of heat.
>> >They
>> >> > sell a kit so you can make out of 2  55 gal drums for about $1600.
>> Used
>> >> oil
>> >> > gives 140,000 BTU's/ gallon.
>> >> >
>> >> > Jay
>> >> > Panama City Beach, Fl.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>  http://www.heco.net/Wasteoil.htm
>> >>
>> >> (link to Harold Electric Company HECO oil burner site)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>

.         .
| Message 32                                                          

Subject: References
From:    S & S Aqua Farm 
Date:    Wed, 08 Aug 2001 21:39:07 -0500

At 11:05 AM 08/08/2001 -0400, you wrote:

>I'd LOVE to do it!  My problem is I'm too poor to pay Attention!  It all
>takes money, unfortunately.
>I'm trying to write a paper as a forerunner to getting a grant or loan, but
>am not getting much help with some "bibliographical proof" that I need.
>Yes, I've studied and done this, this and this, but I didn't keep track of
>the authors and quotes, etc. of the things I experimented with.  Now, they
>want an extensive bibliography and I'm afraid I can't come up the info in
>time to make the deadline.
>    Whine, whine

Donna - Resources and links to many research papers, articles, websites,
etc. are available through the ATTRA website -- just search on the topic of
your choice.  They also have links to the National Ag Library site.

Appropriate Technology Transfer for Rural Areas (ATTRA)
Fayetteville, AR
http://www.attra.org  
800-346-9140
"Steve Diver" 
Aquaponics Resource page:
http://www.attra.org/attra-pub/aquaponic.html

If you were researching tilapia, which I don't believe you are, the American
Tilapia Association website(s) also contains much of the information you
might need:

American Tilapia Association
1901 North Fort Meyer Dr., Suite 700
Arlington, VA 22209  
phone 703-524-2633
fax 703-524-4619
Ofc. Mgr. Yolanda Franklin 
http://www.tilapia.org
http://ag.arizona.edu/azaqua/ata.html
Sec/Treas.  (Kevin M. Fitzsimmons)

Another source for aquaculture information:
Aquaculture Network Information Center
http://aquanic.org

Publications with links as well as articles for documentation:

Aquaponics Journal
Rebecca Nelson 
Nelson/Pade Multimedia
tel 209-742-6869, fax 209-742-4402
http://www.aquaponics.com

Practical Hydroponics and Greenhouses
Casper Publications Pty Ltd
PO Box 225 Narrabeen
NSW 2101 Australia
Tel: 61 2 9905 9933 Fax: 61 2 9905 9030
E-mail: casper 'at' hydroponics.com.au
http://www.hydroponics.com.au

The Growing EDGE
P.O. Box 1027
341 S.W. 2nd Street
Corvallis, OR 97333
"Doug Peckenpaugh" 
Website -- http://www.growingedge.com

Kris Book just last week posted a list from Doug Peckenpaugh of articles,
etc.  I can repost that if you can't locate it (dated 7/26/2001, subject
Resources List).   

And Mike has started a bookmarks site for us, but I don't know the current
status.

Through the above websites, you should be able to obtain sufficient
documentation for most any proposal.

Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775  417-256-5124
Web page  http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/

.         .
| Message 33                                                          

Subject: Aqua-L mail group and other lists for multiple species
From:    S & S Aqua Farm 
Date:    Wed, 08 Aug 2001 21:53:29 -0500

For those interested in fish species other than Tilapia, here are a few mail
groups that cover multiple species:

AQUA-L

To Subscribe to AQUA-L
Send a message to majordomo 'at' killick.mi.mun.ca
In the message body, type subscribe aqua-l

For the Aqua-culture list at yahoogroups, you can join at
http://www.yahoogroups.com or contact the list owner:
Aqua-culture-owner 'at' yahoogroups.com

For the yellow perch list out of Ohio State, email to:
listserver 'at' postoffice.ag.ohio-state.edu
with "subscribe yellowperch" in the body
Send administrative queries to  

Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775  417-256-5124
Web page  http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/

.         .
| Message 34                                                          

Subject: Re: Adriana's New Thread
From:    "dyarrow" 
Date:    Thu, 9 Aug 2001 09:46:00 -0400

----- Original Message -----
From: 

Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 2:09 PM
Subject: Adriana's New Thread
> Next time you find yourself in downtown Birmingham, go by
> Massey's  

   gallon glass jugs full of
> seeds on the shelves behind Shirley's counter. There are about a
> hundred of them, Shirley will weigh out what you want by the
>  fraction of an ounce and sell them to you for a small fraction of
> what you would pay off the seed rack at any of the local chain stores.
> Massey's has been doing this and making a profit and been in
> business over a hundred years. I am sure many other cities
> have something similar.

i get my seed from FEDCO
federation of cooperatives in maine

started as a repackager of johnny's select seeds to resell to new england food
coops.  now they do bulbs, trees, potatoes, soil amendments, books, farem &
garden equipment, etc.  generally great prices and variety selection.  simple
newsprint catalog with no pictures.  sends out three catalogs annually:
Seeds, Tubers & Supplies: in winter
Trees in october
Bulbs in June

Fedco Seeds
PO Box 520
Waterville, ME  04903-0520
207-873-7333

~  David Yarrow
Turtle EyeLand Sanctuary
44 Gilligan Road, East Greenbush, NY 12061
518-477-6100
www.championtrees.org

.         .
| Message 35                                                          

Subject: RE: # of fish per tank
From:    "Mark Allen Wells" 
Date:    Wed, 8 Aug 2001 23:31:44 -0500

Now I need another question answered. How many hybrid striped bass can be
grown in a 1,000 gallon tank?  I cant seem to find any info that is not pond
related.  Everything mentions tanks in passing and nothing in detail.  If
anyone can help me w/this I'd greatly appreciate it :)

Thanyou in advance :)
Teresa
----
Hi Teresa,

I don't know much about hybrid striped bass but you may find
some good info in this document from AquaNic on.
A WHITE PAPER ON THE STATUS AND NEEDS OF HYBRID STRIPED BASS AQUACULTURE
IN THE NORTH CENTRAL REGION

http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/aquanic/ncrac/wpapers/hsb32900.htm

this page discussed using them in a recirculating system and using
different stocking densities but they didn't say what they were.
I would try to contact them.http://www.nalusda.gov/ttic/tektran/data/000009/19/0000091915.html

this page of Extension contacts may be of help too.
http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/aquanic/ncrac/direc/excont.htm

hope this helps,
mark

.         .
| Message 36                                                          

Subject: RE: New Alchemy And Green Center Archives - Falmouth, MA
From:    "Mark Allen Wells" 
Date:    Wed, 8 Aug 2001 23:37:30 -0500

This greenhouse is heated by compost, it only costs $40 a year to heat in
Ma.

http://www.vsb.cape.com/~afs/greencenter/home.htm

-----

another great link, kris
.thanks!  my greenhouse is in the planning
stages and I like looking all the alternatives.  It's amazing how
much is out there.

mark