Aquaponics Digest - Tue 08/14/01
Message 1: RE: Water Water everywhere. from "Mark Allen Wells"
Message 2: Re: Seeding a Biofilter
from Elisheva Ruth
Message 3: Re: Seeding a Biofilter
from "KenHale"
Message 4: Re: Seeding a Biofilter
from "Arlos"
Message 5: Re: Seeding a Biofilter
from "F.Carl Uhland"
Message 6: RE: Seeding a Biofilter
from "Hurst, Steve ( China)"
Message 7: RE: Seeding a Biofilter
from "Mark Allen Wells"
Message 8: Re: Seeding a Biofilter
from "Arlos"
Message 9: Re: Seeding a Biofilter
from Mick
Message 10: curled tomato leaves-calcium deficiency?
from "Mark Allen Wells"
Message 11: Re: curled tomato leaves-calcium deficiency?
from "KenHale"
Message 12: too much nitrogen
from "Marc Laberge"
Message 13: RE: Seeding a Biofilter
from "Mark Allen Wells"
Message 14: Re: too much nitrogen
from "KenHale"
Message 15: Re: Water Water everywhere. from "Brent Bingham"
Message 16: Re: Seeding a Biofilter using ammonia
from "Leslie Ter Morshuizen"
Message 17: Organic fish food
from Mick
Message 18: Re: Seeding a Biofilter
from Arlus Farnsworth
Message 19: Re: Seeding a Biofilter using ammonia
from Mick
Message 20: RE: Water Water everywhere. from "Chris Mills"
Message 21: Re: Seeding a Biofilter using ammonia
from Michael Grey
Message 22: Re: curled tomato leaves-calcium deficiency?
from "gutierrez-lagatta"
Message 23: Re: too much nitrogen
from "gutierrez-lagatta"
Message 24: Re: Seeding a Biofilter using ammonia
from "Arlos"
Message 25: Pest Control: Irish Spring, "Cedar" (Juniper), & Citrus
from "TGTX"
Message 26: Re: Seeding a Biofilter using ammonia
from "gerry magnuson"
Message 27: Re: curled tomato leaves-calcium deficiency?
from Bertmcl
. .
| Message 1
Subject: RE: Water Water everywhere.From: "Mark Allen Wells"
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 00:48:49 -0500
The cooler the water the more effect ozone is. Hot water destroys ozone,
hense
my earlier post on heat destruction of off gas. Its going to take some good
engineering to reduce the temp needs in hospital laundry facilities and use
ozone.
--
Arlos,
My 'water notes' file is growing. I think you are like I am when it comes
to water. Back in my wastewater/waterworks days my friends called me
'the water man' because it's all I talked about. Maybe it's as much
a part of my heritage as agriculture
.I think my last name 'Wells' is an
old english name for "one who draws from the well" (or maybe a cistern
LOL)
Thanks for all the info. I was aware about ozone and water temps. My
drinking water is always chilled before ozonating. (an unrelated note:
the cooler water temps in my basement also help keep my DO levels up.
The temps wouldn't do for tilapia but it doesn't slow the bluegill down
at all).
I wondered about the laundry thing too
.it will be interesting to see
how they pull it off. Maybe it's some type of presoak system or something.
You are right about the chemical companies resisting ozone
.they stand to
lose billions
.so does the pharmaceutical industry if ozone gains the
acceptance here that it has in Europe. It's widely used there to destroy
pathogens (including HIV) in blood.
For me, being able to supply my own water needs is right up there with
growing my own food and producing my own energy. The article you posted
the link for that started this thread is the writing on the wall. Many
feel that fresh water will become like oil one day if we aren't careful.
Rare, expensive, fought over and regulated by governments. I hope it
doesn't come to that but nothing surprises me anymore.
Mark
. .
| Message 2
Subject: Re: Seeding a Biofilter
From: Elisheva Ruth
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 07:38:58 +0000
Try seeding earthworms and/or fresh moist earthworm castings
in biofilters, full of rich complex microbial communities.
> From: dreadlox
> Organization: Barnetech Industrial Consultants
> Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
> Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 17:20:02 -0700
> To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
> Subject: Re: Seeding a Biofilter
>
> Carolyn Hoagland wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> If you were starting a new biofilter in a remote location, where would
>> you obtain the nitrosomas and other bacterias necessary to get the
>> biofilter working? Does anyone have a favorite commercial source for
>> buying a starter culture?
>>
>> Carolyn
>
> --
>
> Carolyn, I dont know what the biofilter is for (swimming hole, fish) but
> a visit down to your nearest farmer is fine. Go out on the fields and
> get some dried cow "pads" (dung), and pack them in bags and puncture
> them so the "Juice" can drip all over your biofilter. Better yet in a
> remote area is a visit to the abbatoir and get some stomach juice from a
> sheep or cow. I am not joking. Some water from the cowstall washdown
> area will seed your biofilter too, or a visit to the nearest sewage
> plant, tell them what you are doing and they will give you some
> "activated sludge". Thats four options
. man why do I tell all the
> secrets??
>
> Commercial concoctions are nothing more than a concentrated brew of the
> above bacteria. Dont be fooled.
>
> Save your money. I Do.!! :)
>
>
>> <{{{*> Mike Barnett <*}}}><
> JAMAICA, West Indies
>
. .
| Message 3
Subject: Re: Seeding a Biofilter
From: "KenHale"
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 16:47:14 -0500
Boatcycle Supply has that. 1/800-333-9154
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carolyn Hoagland"
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2001 4:13 PM
Subject: Seeding a Biofilter
> Hello,
>
> If you were starting a new biofilter in a remote location, where would
> you obtain the nitrosomas and other bacterias necessary to get the
> biofilter working? Does anyone have a favorite commercial source for
> buying a starter culture?
>
> Carolyn
>
. .
| Message 4
Subject: Re: Seeding a Biofilter
From: "Arlos"
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 05:38:47 -0700
Carolyn,
I use and recommend a product called, "BIOLIFT". It's available in 32 oz.
containers and contains more than ample amounts of the correct bacteria for
seeding a biofilter. It is sold an most pond suppliers.
Arlos
-----Original Message-----
From: Carolyn Hoagland
To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
Date: Monday, August 13, 2001 2:13 PM
Subject: Seeding a Biofilter
>Hello,
>
>If you were starting a new biofilter in a remote location, where would
>you obtain the nitrosomas and other bacterias necessary to get the
>biofilter working? Does anyone have a favorite commercial source for
>buying a starter culture?
>
>Carolyn
>
. .
| Message 5
Subject: Re: Seeding a Biofilter
From: "F.Carl Uhland"
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 09:10:31 -0400
Howdy all,
I'm not certain it's a good idea to use fecal material from cows to seed=20
biofilters. It is probably true that it provides a good souce of nitrogen=
=20
to feed bacteria, and even some "good" bacteria itself, however, cows can=20
be carriers of the hamburger disease E.coli, Salmonella etc, and it is=20
probably prudent to utilize purified products with characterized bacterial=
=20
content rather than take risks with fecal coliforms.
Carl
At 17:20 13-08-01 -0700, you wrote:
>Carolyn Hoagland wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > If you were starting a new biofilter in a remote location, where would
> > you obtain the nitrosomas and other bacterias necessary to get the
> > biofilter working? Does anyone have a favorite commercial source for
> > buying a starter culture?
> >
> > Carolyn
>
>--
>
>Carolyn, I dont know what the biofilter is for (swimming hole, fish) but
>a visit down to your nearest farmer is fine. Go out on the fields and
>get some dried cow "pads" (dung), and pack them in bags and puncture
>them so the "Juice" can drip all over your biofilter. Better yet in a
>remote area is a visit to the abbatoir and get some stomach juice from a
>sheep or cow. I am not joking. Some water from the cowstall washdown
>area will seed your biofilter too, or a visit to the nearest sewage
>plant, tell them what you are doing and they will give you some
>"activated sludge". Thats four options
. man why do I tell all the
>secrets??
>
>Commercial concoctions are nothing more than a concentrated brew of the
>above bacteria. Dont be fooled.
>
>Save your money. I Do.!! :)
>
>
> ><{{{*> Mike Barnett <*}}}><
> JAMAICA, West Indies
F. Carl Uhland, DVM
Facult=E9 M=E9decine V=E9t=E9rinaire
University of Montreal
3200 rue Sicotte
Saint-Hyacinthe (Qu=E9bec) J2S 7C6
T=E9l: 450-773-8521; ext: 8317
Fax: 450-778-8116
Carl.F.Uhland 'at' umontreal.ca
. .
| Message 6
Subject: RE: Seeding a Biofilter
From: "Hurst, Steve ( China)"
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 22:05:41 +0800
Hi Carolyn,
I am pretty new to the Aquaponics side, so I can only comment
on what I experienced.
I obtained the start-up pack from Paula, but I decided
to try and set it up without using the bacteria seed that Paula usually send
out.
The reason for this was mainly that I did not want to rely on anything
that I had to obtain from the other side of the world. Anyway, I set up the
whole system, as per S&S design pack, put some "kamikaze" Tilapia in
to the tank, and expected them to die off at regular intervals until
I had established a healthy bacteria culture in the growbed.
I already had Ammonia , Nitrite and Nitrate test kids available.
At first I had about 10 fish a day start to die-off. I never detected any
Ammonia levels, but I put this down to lack of sensistivity of the kit.
I did detect a sharp increase in Nitrite levels after the first two weeks
though, then this started to drop around the third week. Fish Deaths had
reduced
to around 2/3 a day by then.
Around 4 weeks, the Nitrite levels were dropping sharply.
I now beleive that the bed is well established, and it is supporting Tilapia
at around
1/2 lb per gallon ( per Cu/ft growbed )
I did no bacteria seeding whatsoever.
Incidentally plant seeds that I put in to the bed started to germinate
almost immediately,
but there was a noticeable increase in Plant Growth around the Third week.
Note also, that I am in the tropics, so I am not sure if the Heat/Humidity
levels
had any effect on the time it takes for a bed to establish a bacteria colony
on its own.
Steve H
SNIP
> >
> > If you were starting a new biofilter in a remote location, where would
> > you obtain the nitrosomas and other bacterias necessary to get the
> > biofilter working? Does anyone have a favorite commercial source for
> > buying a starter culture?
> >
> > Carolyn
. .
| Message 7
Subject: RE: Seeding a Biofilter
From: "Mark Allen Wells"
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 11:00:16 -0500
Hi folks.
I just had a thought about livestock manures while I was watering
some cattle for a friend who is away this morning. A lot of our
livestock today is given wormers (like ivermectin) and other meds
that can render the stuff biologically dead for a while. I
always make sure manure has aged for a while before adding it to my
vermiculture bed (unless I know the animals aren't medicated).
Carl brought up a concern about bacteria. The following is from a report
called.
"HAMBURGER DISEASE - Deadly bacteria show up in surprising places"
http://www.plant.uoguelph.ca/safefood/micro-haz/fs-vtec.htm
"Last year, four outbreaks of hamburger disease in the U.S. were linked
to lettuce that had come in contact with contaminated hamburger or was
insufficiently washed after growers sprayed it with untreated manure,
a concoction known to gardeners as "manure tea."
"People living on dairy farms have much higher exposure," says
epidemiologist Dr. Jeff Wilson, who leads the Ontario study and has a
joint appointment with Health Canada and the University of Guelph. In
a report published in November in the Journal of Infectious Diseases,
Dr. Wilson's group reported finding verotoxigenic E. coli(VTEC) - the
family that O157:H7 belongs to - in 21 of 335 individualstested. More
important, 70 per cent of the farm children under 10 years of age were
seropositive, indicating they had been exposed to VTEC. A separate study
of children from Toronto in the same age groupfound that only 5 per cent
carried VTEC antibodies."
There have been some interesting studies that suggest what cattle eat
may be playing a role in the increase of E.coli outbreaks (as well the
conditions in today's slaughterhouses. Every person concerned about
our food should read "Slaughterhouse"
.this story was set to be
told by 2 different news shows but was pulled by officials who felt
it would "upset the viewing public"
.ya right). Some farmers feel that
grazing animals (like cattle) that aren't permitted to graze and eat lots
of green grass are at odds with nature and this will naturally cause
problems
related to health. I am not a biologist but I agree with this.
This is a good article from Colorado State entitled;
"Preventing E. coli From Garden to Plate"
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/foodnut/09369.html
All this being said, I do use compost/manure teas around the (urban) farm.
But I compost my manure first and my tea is well aerated rather than
fermented (anaerobic). Two things help the beneficial microbes grow
and at the same time help keep pathogens in check
.heat and oxygen.composting provides this.
take care everyone,
mark
. .
| Message 8
Subject: Re: Seeding a Biofilter
From: "Arlos"
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 09:26:46 -0700
Mark,
Good point about bacterial sources. I think it may be best for anyone to
research specific strains before using anything from an animal husbandry
operation as e.Coli or other undesirable bacteria or meds as you stated
getting in the water column and calling the biofilter home, may thrive in an
aquaponics closed loop system. Microbiology is not my area but I will call a
friend at Stanford today and ask her if there are any concerns. Protecting
an enclosed aquaponics system from flying pests is one thing but swimming
ones are another. Pre-treatment of source water is always good practice,
then you have a base line to begin work with.
Arlos
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Allen Wells
To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
Date: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 9:00 AM
Subject: RE: Seeding a Biofilter
>Hi folks.>
>I just had a thought about livestock manures while I was watering
>some cattle for a friend who is away this morning. A lot of our
>livestock today is given wormers (like ivermectin) and other meds
>that can render the stuff biologically dead for a while. I
>always make sure manure has aged for a while before adding it to my
>vermiculture bed (unless I know the animals aren't medicated).
>
>Carl brought up a concern about bacteria. The following is from a report
>called.>
>"HAMBURGER DISEASE - Deadly bacteria show up in surprising places"
>http://www.plant.uoguelph.ca/safefood/micro-haz/fs-vtec.htm
>
>"Last year, four outbreaks of hamburger disease in the U.S. were linked
>to lettuce that had come in contact with contaminated hamburger or was
>insufficiently washed after growers sprayed it with untreated manure,
>a concoction known to gardeners as "manure tea."
>
>"People living on dairy farms have much higher exposure," says
>epidemiologist Dr. Jeff Wilson, who leads the Ontario study and has a
>joint appointment with Health Canada and the University of Guelph. In
>a report published in November in the Journal of Infectious Diseases,
>Dr. Wilson's group reported finding verotoxigenic E. coli(VTEC) - the
>family that O157:H7 belongs to - in 21 of 335 individualstested. More
>important, 70 per cent of the farm children under 10 years of age were
>seropositive, indicating they had been exposed to VTEC. A separate study
>of children from Toronto in the same age groupfound that only 5 per cent
>carried VTEC antibodies."
>
>
>There have been some interesting studies that suggest what cattle eat
>may be playing a role in the increase of E.coli outbreaks (as well the
>conditions in today's slaughterhouses. Every person concerned about
>our food should read "Slaughterhouse"
.this story was set to be
>told by 2 different news shows but was pulled by officials who felt
>it would "upset the viewing public"
.ya right). Some farmers feel that
>grazing animals (like cattle) that aren't permitted to graze and eat lots
>of green grass are at odds with nature and this will naturally cause
>problems
>related to health. I am not a biologist but I agree with this.
>
>This is a good article from Colorado State entitled;
>"Preventing E. coli From Garden to Plate"
>http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/foodnut/09369.html
>
>All this being said, I do use compost/manure teas around the (urban) farm.
>But I compost my manure first and my tea is well aerated rather than
>fermented (anaerobic). Two things help the beneficial microbes grow
>and at the same time help keep pathogens in check
.heat and oxygen.>composting provides this.
>
>take care everyone,
>mark
>
>
>
. .
| Message 9
Subject: Re: Seeding a Biofilter
From: Mick
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 12:19:58 -0500
Mark Allen Wells wrote:
> Hi folks.>
> I just had a thought about livestock manures while I was watering
> some cattle for a friend who is away this morning. A lot of our
> livestock today is given
You are right on point with this. American beef is routinely given a wide
range of pharmaceuticals. I can no longer eat beef because of it.
As for the e.coli concerns
they are probably right on point as well.
Various pathogens love the farm environment.
I've used manure tea made from my ponies in outdoor/traditional gardening. My
ponies are free-range grazing and only given a wormer once a year if their
gums are pink. For any other problem, they cure themselves with wild herbs.
I make sure there is a two month gap for gathering manure to be composted. If
they get wormed, the manure is put in a separate compost pile for two months.
I hope this is enough time for any worming medicine to be out of their system.
I haven't used a manure tea in my aquaponics system and after all the concerns
expressed, I think I'll keep it out for good. The worm casing idea sounds
interesting, provided you raise them in a worm farm and know exactly what they
are eating.
Don't ya just love this group? All these great ideas!
Mick
. .
| Message 10
Subject: curled tomato leaves-calcium deficiency?
From: "Mark Allen Wells"
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 12:28:30 -0500
Hi gang,
I'm a little new at the hydro thing and have a question.
My hydro tomatoes (deep water culture using General Hydroponics
nutrients) have some curled leaves with hooked tips but are
producing fruit and otherwise appear healthy. I have read that
this can be a symptom of calcium deficiency and that some
growers supplement their nutrient mix with calcium and magnesium.
Why do the commercial mixes seem to be lacking in this area?
I have read gypsum will add needed calcium without altering PH
and dissolves easier than most sources. Is this a good source or
are there other recommendations?
thanks in advance.mark
. .
| Message 11
Subject: Re: curled tomato leaves-calcium deficiency?
From: "KenHale"
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 12:36:55 -0500
it's also a sign of too much nitrogen - Ken
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Allen Wells"
To: "Aquaponics"
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 12:28 PM
Subject: curled tomato leaves-calcium deficiency?
> Hi gang,
>
> I'm a little new at the hydro thing and have a question.
> My hydro tomatoes (deep water culture using General Hydroponics
> nutrients) have some curled leaves with hooked tips but are
> producing fruit and otherwise appear healthy. I have read that
> this can be a symptom of calcium deficiency and that some
> growers supplement their nutrient mix with calcium and magnesium.
> Why do the commercial mixes seem to be lacking in this area?
> I have read gypsum will add needed calcium without altering PH
> and dissolves easier than most sources. Is this a good source or
> are there other recommendations?
>
> thanks in advance.> mark
>
. .
| Message 12
Subject: too much nitrogen
From: "Marc Laberge"
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 13:44:26 -0400
Ken, can too much nitrogen be the cause for ripples on the leaves of head
lettuce, I'm curious, because I've never found any literature on this.
Marc Laberge
Mont Tremblant
Quebec , Canada
. .
| Message 13
Subject: RE: Seeding a Biofilter
From: "Mark Allen Wells"
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 13:04:00 -0500
Don't ya just love this group? All these great ideas!
-----
I sure do Mick! I use the teas and my garden loves them.
I have read some interesting studies on their use in controlling
things like powdery mildew. As for fish, I've always let systems seed
themselves for the most part as Steve mentioned. If you start
small and build up it can work without much loss. From there
you have your own seed source. You can even begin cycling a tank
with pure ammonia
.I pulled this from my notes.
You can add pure ammonia (about one capful per tank per day)
to the system until ammonia (NH3) levels reach 1.0 mg/l. Maintain 1.0 mg/l
ammonia levels for at least 2 weeks before adding fish. After one week,
begin monitoring the nitrite (NO2 -) levels. Stabile ammonia and nitrite
levels indicate that the biofilter is ready for fish.
It's a simple but effective method that doesn't even need fish.
I mentioned this to Arlos, but it's ironic that in some of the
"underdeveloped" countries they don't have many of our problems with
livestock because they still get sunshine and grass
.they aren't forced
to grow too fast or over-produce (such as our dairy cattle). They work
with what they have and tend to stay closer to the natural systems that
keep things in check.
take it easy, Mick
mark
. .
| Message 14
Subject: Re: too much nitrogen
From: "KenHale"
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 13:19:00 -0500
I don't know about lettuce-no growing experience
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marc Laberge"
To: "aqua"
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 12:44 PM
Subject: too much nitrogen
> Ken, can too much nitrogen be the cause for ripples on the leaves of head
> lettuce, I'm curious, because I've never found any literature on this.
> Marc Laberge
> Mont Tremblant
> Quebec , Canada
>
>
. .
| Message 15
Subject: Re: Water Water everywhere.From: "Brent Bingham"
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 11:15:13 -0700
Thanks,
I would like more information. Are the UV tubes considered a corona
discharge generator?
Brent
----- Original Message -----
From: "Arlos"
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2001 6:07 PM
Subject: Re: Water Water everywhere.
> Brent,
>
> UV lamps have a rated life based on hours of use and they degrade from
the
> first hour on. that is why an hour counter can be an important tool. A
> company in Campbell, CA by the name of "Triple O" sells a UV lamp that
> pushes ambient air through using a very small diaphragm pump and that air
is
> set inside a large filter housing. Their literature makes a lot of
> statements about the use of Ozone but never directly makes any performance
> claims directly about their own equipment. UV performance is measured by
> plate counts of bacteria and wavelength measurement of the tubes. Nothing
> against them but I have an opinion I'd rather not state on a semi public
> post. Manufactures have done their homework and know the service life of
the
> lamps which makes an hour counter a cheap tool to use for maintenance and
> service. running air through a wet UV via an eductor may produce little or
> negligible amounts of ozone. An UV lamp may continue to give off
> light but may not be effective any longer. Fluorescent lights produce
ozone
> (minimally). There are data charts to calculate dosage. Contamination
> of<2ppm can be treated with UV, anymore than that should be treated with
> ozone generated by a corona discharge generator. Beyond that, dosage is
> based on contact and retention time, flow, temp and grams converted to
> milligrams per liter. (If anyone wants a full chart for calculating ozone
> dosage, raise your hands and I'll mime 'ogragh a copy for ya and post it).
> If the quartz sleeve or the water is not clean, contaminates are like
hiding
> behind a tree for protection from sunlight. There is a minimum amount of
> flocculation taking place which is like popcorn being popped to allow
> contaminates to bond to one another or other materials to become large or
> heavy enough to filter or drop out of the water column. Like taking a
stroll
> through a cotton field wearing a Velcro leisure suit. Ozone on the other
> hand is an equal opportunity oxidizer it doesn't care if the water is
cloudy
> or full of algae, everyone gets dosed.
>
> Arlos
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brent Bingham
> To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
> Date: Monday, August 13, 2001 3:55 PM
> Subject: Re: Water Water everywhere.>
>
> >We have used a ozone generator at one location for over 5 years. We have
> >only had to replace the UV tubes one time. It works very well only down
> side
> >is the power. It uses a lot of electricity when you consider the water
pump
> >and the tubes. If you put it in a system that already has a pump large
> >enough to make the ventures pull in fresh air, you can save on power.
> >Brent
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Arlos"
> >
> >Sent: Monday, August 13, 2001 12:43 PM
> >Subject: Re: Water Water everywhere.> >
> >
> >> Mark,
> >>
> >> Another note on Ozone use. Rule of thumb (origin of that word is from
> >> English where it was not permissible to whip your wife with anything
> >larger
> >> is diameter than your thumb, {that should really get a thread going]):
> The
> >> cooler the water the more effect ozone is. Hot water destroys ozone,
> hense
> >> my earlier post on heat destruction of off gas. Its going to take some
> >good
> >> engineering to reduce the temp needs in hospital laundry facilities and
> >use
> >> ozone. Direct injection into machines might be possible but all wetted
> >> sufaces would have to be ozone resistant. Some crafty snake oil
salesman
> >> came up with a product called "Bioballs" which contain magnets inside
and
> >do
> >> nothing. It was suppose to have eliminated the need for laundry
> >detergent.
> >> Considering most people have never even had high school chemistry, it
had
> >> been an easy sell, for a while. It's appeared several times in the past
> >ten
> >> years.The chemical industry is going to resist this (ozone as a
> >sanitizer)at
> >> all costs for the obvious reason, it can be produced as needed on site
at
> >> less cost than other chemicals and leaves no residue. Same reason we're
> >all
> >> looking to create a chemical free ( no more than what fish provide)
> >> aquaponics system. Chemicals work wonders in the right application and
> >> Monsanto would like us to still believe "Better Living through
> Chemistry".
> >> We're just beginning to question when is enough, enough. Who'd ever
> >thought
> >> we could recycle plastic bottles into socks, toasters into Toyotas. Of
> >> course we don't recycle our socks into bottles, yet.
> >> There have been some great articles from the group here and all have
> had
> >> some relevance to aquaponics in the greater picture. looking forward to
> >> seeing many more
I'm talking to a publisher in Santa Barbara in a week
> >> about the hidden side of wasted water in California (residential uses
> >about
> >> 1% of available potable water) ag and industry use the rest yet water
is
> >> being squeezed away from people under the need to conserve) Industry
has
> >> little restriction and with rare instance reuse's process water. This
is
> >> what makes aquaponics so great, the conservation of resources, creating
> so
> >> much from so little.
> >>
> >> Arlos
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Mark Allen Wells
> >> To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
> >> Date: Monday, August 13, 2001 10:00 AM
> >> Subject: RE: Water Water everywhere.> >>
> >>
> >> >Among its disadvantage, it does have some trouble if there is alot
> >> >of organic material in the water, so dosing must be made
> >> >accordingly,
> >> >
> >> >----
> >> >
> >> >Hi Carl,
> >> >
> >> >Thanks for the input. I understand about the problems with organic
> >> >materials. We still pull our water from deep wells but cities near
> >> >here like Indianapolis that pull from reservoirs have switched to
> >> >chloramine to try and keep their trihalomethane numbers down (too much
> >> >organic material in the water for chlorine).
> >> >
> >> >Ozone offers greater protection from cysts such as cryptosporidium
> (which
> >> >killed over 100 and left 1000's sick in Milwaukee, Wis. in '93). It
also
> >> >kills e.coli much quicker. It doesn't have a long life but that isn't
> >> >a factor in a recirculating system like I want to create. I think
> >> >you will see more hospitals going to it. I read a recent article about
> >> >a hospital installing an ozone system in their laundry. I think it
> >> >will be more widespread as older chlorine equipment wears out and
needs
> >> >replaced.
> >> >
> >> >Mark
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
. .
| Message 16
Subject: Re: Seeding a Biofilter using ammonia
From: "Leslie Ter Morshuizen"
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 21:00:49 +0200
Bear in mind that although 1.0 mg/l ammonia will not kill tough species like
tilapia, it will have long term damaging effects on their gills. < 0.1mg/l
ammonia is more acceptable for culture conditions (pH dependant).
> You can add pure ammonia (about one capful per tank per day)
> to the system until ammonia (NH3) levels reach 1.0 mg/l. Maintain 1.0 mg/l
> ammonia levels for at least 2 weeks before adding fish. After one week,
> begin monitoring the nitrite (NO2 -) levels. Stabile ammonia and nitrite
> levels indicate that the biofilter is ready for fish.
>
> I mentioned this to Arlos, but it's ironic that in some of the
> "underdeveloped" countries they don't have many of our problems with
> livestock because they still get sunshine and grass
.they aren't forced
> to grow too fast or over-produce (such as our dairy cattle). They work
> with what they have and tend to stay closer to the natural systems that
> keep things in check.
In underdeveloped countries these natural things include people dying on the
streets from basic conditions such as starvation, diarea and malnutrition!
Leslie
. .
| Message 17
Subject: Organic fish food
From: Mick
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 14:07:37 -0500
In time, we hope to get an organically raised certification for our
vegetables and tilapia. As I understand it, the hold-up with gaining
such certification in the production of fish is the new regulation
stating that fish food which uses more than 5 percent fish meal can not
be labeled "organic". I hope I paraphrased that correctly.
This is probably a dumb question, BUT
I'm gonna ask it anyway
, I'm
not proud.
Given the propensity of young tilapia to consume their smaller
brothers, what would be wrong with using the extra young that are
produced in breeding colonies in the making of fish meal to feed the
rest of the fish? The plant based nutrients in fish food are easily
produced organically. Seems to me, the hold-up is only the fish meal
portion of a balanced fish food.
Currently, we're ordering our fish food from Ziegler's. They will
customize the indredients in the mix to our specifications, but they
have no source for organically certified fish meal.
My breeding colonies would produce six hundred hatchlings a week if I
let them. I don't have the room for such a mob. Couldn't I use the
extra hatchlings in organic fish food production for the rest of the
fish? I would assume that since young tilapia are cannibalistic until
they are about two inches long, that it is a natural protein for them to
eat. I wouldn't want to create Mad Fish Disease so where is my
thinking faulty? And why isn't it being done? I'm sure there's a good
reason.
Mick
. .
| Message 18
Subject: Re: Seeding a Biofilter
From: Arlus Farnsworth
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 12:44:18 -0700
fungus mycelium can "actively" remove e-coli.
. .
| Message 19
Subject: Re: Seeding a Biofilter using ammonia
From: Mick
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 15:17:08 -0500
> In underdeveloped countries these natural things include people dying on the
> streets from basic conditions such as starvation, diarea and malnutrition!
>
> Leslie
Leslie,
As opposed to the cancer and auto-immune diseases (rheumatoid arthritis and
such) that we deal with in our technically advanced culture which overuses
chemical pesticides, herbicides, hormones, antibiotics and the like in food
production.
It is my belief that natural ecosystems like aquaponics are the solution to
many of mankind's survival issues. From the ability to grow food with less
water to the ability to grow food without chemical additives to the ability to
grow food in a fraction of the acreage, all these advantages are things that
mankind needs to learn and learn fast.
But, that's just my opinion. Pay no attention to the redhead behind the
curtain, she's a musician and what do they know?
Mick
. .
| Message 20
Subject: RE: Water Water everywhere.From: "Chris Mills"
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 08:15:18 -0500
Arlos,
I would love to see a chart for calculating ozone dosage if you have the
time.
Thanks,
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: aquaponics-request 'at' townsqr.com
[mailto:aquaponics-request 'at' townsqr.com]On Behalf Of Arlos
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2001 8:07 PM
To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
Subject: Re: Water Water everywhere.
Brent,
UV lamps have a rated life based on hours of use and they degrade from the
first hour on. that is why an hour counter can be an important tool. A
company in Campbell, CA by the name of "Triple O" sells a UV lamp that
pushes ambient air through using a very small diaphragm pump and that air is
set inside a large filter housing. Their literature makes a lot of
statements about the use of Ozone but never directly makes any performance
claims directly about their own equipment. UV performance is measured by
plate counts of bacteria and wavelength measurement of the tubes. Nothing
against them but I have an opinion I'd rather not state on a semi public
post. Manufactures have done their homework and know the service life of the
lamps which makes an hour counter a cheap tool to use for maintenance and
service. running air through a wet UV via an eductor may produce little or
negligible amounts of ozone. An UV lamp may continue to give off
light but may not be effective any longer. Fluorescent lights produce ozone
(minimally). There are data charts to calculate dosage. Contamination
of<2ppm can be treated with UV, anymore than that should be treated with
ozone generated by a corona discharge generator. Beyond that, dosage is
based on contact and retention time, flow, temp and grams converted to
milligrams per liter. (If anyone wants a full chart for calculating ozone
dosage, raise your hands and I'll mime 'ogragh a copy for ya and post it).
If the quartz sleeve or the water is not clean, contaminates are like hiding
behind a tree for protection from sunlight. There is a minimum amount of
flocculation taking place which is like popcorn being popped to allow
contaminates to bond to one another or other materials to become large or
heavy enough to filter or drop out of the water column. Like taking a stroll
through a cotton field wearing a Velcro leisure suit. Ozone on the other
hand is an equal opportunity oxidizer it doesn't care if the water is cloudy
or full of algae, everyone gets dosed.
Arlos
-----Original Message-----
From: Brent Bingham
To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
Date: Monday, August 13, 2001 3:55 PM
Subject: Re: Water Water everywhere.
>We have used a ozone generator at one location for over 5 years. We have
>only had to replace the UV tubes one time. It works very well only down
side
>is the power. It uses a lot of electricity when you consider the water pump
>and the tubes. If you put it in a system that already has a pump large
>enough to make the ventures pull in fresh air, you can save on power.
>Brent
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Arlos"
>
>Sent: Monday, August 13, 2001 12:43 PM
>Subject: Re: Water Water everywhere.>
>
>> Mark,
>>
>> Another note on Ozone use. Rule of thumb (origin of that word is from
>> English where it was not permissible to whip your wife with anything
>larger
>> is diameter than your thumb, {that should really get a thread going]):
The
>> cooler the water the more effect ozone is. Hot water destroys ozone,
hense
>> my earlier post on heat destruction of off gas. Its going to take some
>good
>> engineering to reduce the temp needs in hospital laundry facilities and
>use
>> ozone. Direct injection into machines might be possible but all wetted
>> sufaces would have to be ozone resistant. Some crafty snake oil salesman
>> came up with a product called "Bioballs" which contain magnets inside and
>do
>> nothing. It was suppose to have eliminated the need for laundry
>detergent.
>> Considering most people have never even had high school chemistry, it had
>> been an easy sell, for a while. It's appeared several times in the past
>ten
>> years.The chemical industry is going to resist this (ozone as a
>sanitizer)at
>> all costs for the obvious reason, it can be produced as needed on site at
>> less cost than other chemicals and leaves no residue. Same reason we're
>all
>> looking to create a chemical free ( no more than what fish provide)
>> aquaponics system. Chemicals work wonders in the right application and
>> Monsanto would like us to still believe "Better Living through
Chemistry".
>> We're just beginning to question when is enough, enough. Who'd ever
>thought
>> we could recycle plastic bottles into socks, toasters into Toyotas. Of
>> course we don't recycle our socks into bottles, yet.
>> There have been some great articles from the group here and all have
had
>> some relevance to aquaponics in the greater picture. looking forward to
>> seeing many more
I'm talking to a publisher in Santa Barbara in a week
>> about the hidden side of wasted water in California (residential uses
>about
>> 1% of available potable water) ag and industry use the rest yet water is
>> being squeezed away from people under the need to conserve) Industry has
>> little restriction and with rare instance reuse's process water. This is
>> what makes aquaponics so great, the conservation of resources, creating
so
>> much from so little.
>>
>> Arlos
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Mark Allen Wells
>> To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>> Date: Monday, August 13, 2001 10:00 AM
>> Subject: RE: Water Water everywhere.>>
>>
>> >Among its disadvantage, it does have some trouble if there is alot
>> >of organic material in the water, so dosing must be made
>> >accordingly,
>> >
>> >----
>> >
>> >Hi Carl,
>> >
>> >Thanks for the input. I understand about the problems with organic
>> >materials. We still pull our water from deep wells but cities near
>> >here like Indianapolis that pull from reservoirs have switched to
>> >chloramine to try and keep their trihalomethane numbers down (too much
>> >organic material in the water for chlorine).
>> >
>> >Ozone offers greater protection from cysts such as cryptosporidium
(which
>> >killed over 100 and left 1000's sick in Milwaukee, Wis. in '93). It also
>> >kills e.coli much quicker. It doesn't have a long life but that isn't
>> >a factor in a recirculating system like I want to create. I think
>> >you will see more hospitals going to it. I read a recent article about
>> >a hospital installing an ozone system in their laundry. I think it
>> >will be more widespread as older chlorine equipment wears out and needs
>> >replaced.
>> >
>> >Mark
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
. .
| Message 21
Subject: Re: Seeding a Biofilter using ammonia
From: Michael Grey
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 13:59:41 -0700
Manthe and Malone (1987) compared several methods to reduce filter start-up
time. The addition of inorganic ammonia by itself properly conditioned the
filter but did not shorten acclimation time. The addition of a solution
consisting of 12 mg-N/L of ammonium chloride plus 12 mg-N/L of sodium
nitrite reduced filter start-up time by 28% (10 days). Controls normally
required 36 days for start-up.
The simultaneous addition of inorganic ammonia and nitrite solutions
reduces filter start-up times. In normal filter start-up with organic
compounds, the autotrophs must compete for space on filter media surfaces
with heterotrophs. By using an inorganic ammonia solution Nitrosomonas
become established well before the addition of organic compounds and the
subsequent development of heterotrophs. By adding nitrite simultaneously
with ammonia Nitrobacter do not have to wait the normal 10-14 day period
before they have enough nitrite for their development; they start up right
away. The total result is reduced filter start-up time and lower
concentrations of ammonia and nitrite.
Seeding of freshwater systems was examined by Carmigiani and Bennett
(1977). The authors found that addition of approximately 3%o wet filter
media from an established filter decreased start-up time by 48% compared to
control filters.
At 09:00 PM 8/14/01 +0200, you wrote:
>Bear in mind that although 1.0 mg/l ammonia will not kill tough species like
>tilapia, it will have long term damaging effects on their gills. < 0.1mg/l
>ammonia is more acceptable for culture conditions (pH dependant).
>
> > You can add pure ammonia (about one capful per tank per day)
> > to the system until ammonia (NH3) levels reach 1.0 mg/l. Maintain 1.0 mg/l
> > ammonia levels for at least 2 weeks before adding fish. After one week,
> > begin monitoring the nitrite (NO2 -) levels. Stabile ammonia and nitrite
> > levels indicate that the biofilter is ready for fish.
. .
| Message 22
Subject: Re: curled tomato leaves-calcium deficiency?
From: "gutierrez-lagatta"
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 17:13:02 -0500
Mark,
Calcium nitrate is the common source of calcium in hydroponics. I
sugges that you order the following book from CropKing: "Nutritional
disorders in glasshouse tomatoes, cucumbers and lettuce" It is
expendsive but has color photos of all of the major deficiencies and
or excesses for all 3 crops.
> I have read gypsum will add needed calcium without altering PH
> and dissolves easier than most sources. Is this a good source or
> are there other recommendations?
Beofre you add calcium be sure to check your pH (and your pH meter)
also your EC meter - it could be that there is adequate calcium but
your pH is too high/too low for the plants to uptake it adequately.
Or your meter needs calibration or is faulty and you have been feeding
the wrong amount. Been there, done that.
Adriana
. .
| Message 23
Subject: Re: too much nitrogen
From: "gutierrez-lagatta"
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 17:22:46 -0500
>From "Nutritional Disorders of glashouse tomatoes cucumbers and
lettuce":
"Excess nitrogen (lettuce)
Symptoms
Plants are dark or greyish green and have a rosette appearance.
Growth is inhibited. Leaves are small, trounded and more crinkled
than normal, and resemble spinach leaves. In cultivars with
anthocyanin, the margins of younger leaves may turn red. The symptoms
are like those caused by excess sodiium cholirde. In trials, tipburn
is sometimes associtaed with high nitrogen dressings. However, crops
with growth reduced by excess nitrogen are less susceptible to
tipburn."
Photo shows very small crinkly pointed leaves, les sthan half the size
of the healthy one.
> Ken, can too much nitrogen be the cause for ripples on the leaves of
head
> lettuce, I'm curious, because I've never found any literature on
this.
Calcium deficiency (tomatoes)
"Symptoms
At first the undersides of the leaves are dark green except for the
pale margins; the undersides turn purple. The leaflets remain tiny
and are deformed and curl up
.fruits show blossom end rot."
Excess nitrogen (tomatoes)
"Symptoms
Growth is restricted. Leaves are shorter than normal, look stiff and
are deep green, In acute toxicity, leaves lose turgor, margins
dessicate and sunken watery spots appear, the affected leaf
tissuedying back and turning whitish grey."
. .
| Message 24
Subject: Re: Seeding a Biofilter using ammonia
From: "Arlos"
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 15:22:56 -0700
Leslie,
You a chemist by chance? I remind myself daily of what we take for
granted, clean water included.
Arlos
-----Original Message-----
From: Leslie Ter Morshuizen
To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
Date: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: Seeding a Biofilter using ammonia
>
>Bear in mind that although 1.0 mg/l ammonia will not kill tough species
like
>tilapia, it will have long term damaging effects on their gills. < 0.1mg/l
>ammonia is more acceptable for culture conditions (pH dependant).
>
>> You can add pure ammonia (about one capful per tank per day)
>> to the system until ammonia (NH3) levels reach 1.0 mg/l. Maintain 1.0
mg/l
>> ammonia levels for at least 2 weeks before adding fish. After one week,
>> begin monitoring the nitrite (NO2 -) levels. Stabile ammonia and nitrite
>> levels indicate that the biofilter is ready for fish.
>>
>> I mentioned this to Arlos, but it's ironic that in some of the
>> "underdeveloped" countries they don't have many of our problems with
>> livestock because they still get sunshine and grass
.they aren't forced
>> to grow too fast or over-produce (such as our dairy cattle). They work
>> with what they have and tend to stay closer to the natural systems that
>> keep things in check.
>
>In underdeveloped countries these natural things include people dying on
the
>streets from basic conditions such as starvation, diarea and malnutrition!
>
>Leslie
>
>
>
>
>
. .
| Message 25
Subject: Pest Control: Irish Spring, "Cedar" (Juniper), & Citrus
From: "TGTX"
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 18:45:06 -0500
Howdy Steve (in Wisconsin)
You know, I think I heard a rumor that one of the ingredients in Irish
Spring is an extract of Juniper, and that one source of supply of the
Juniper extract comes from trees cut around my neck of the woods in Texas.
I have no confirmation that this is true, but I heard tell that some of the
"weeds" in the hill country (cedars) are processed into this Irish Spring
Soap. Around the Texas Hill Country, folks call them "cedar trees", but
they are not cedars, but
.Juniper
.2 main common species of
Juniperus
one is asheii, and the other
Hmm
I can't recall the
species name right now to save my life
.anybody know what the "red cedar"
(nay, Juniper) species name is?
Anyway, another interesting factoid is that folks have come up with insect
repellent or insect control conconctions made of Juniper or Cedar extracts.
I think "cedarcide" is one of the brand names that comes to mind
.for
fire ant control, I believe
The aromatic compounds in gymnosperms, some
of the oldest species of trees on the planet, repel some species of animals.
Makes sense
cedar closets repel moths, etc
Another interesting pest repellent product line is based on citrus
rinds
.orange rind extract is pretty effective, apparently. "Citri-cide".
Tedzo
. .
| Message 26
Subject: Re: Seeding a Biofilter using ammonia
From: "gerry magnuson"
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 14:14:11 -1000
arlos, it is one thing to experiment with any new idea/project
it is also
to remember K.I.S.S., or one may lose the purpose of the project
.it would
be better to all at this juncture to have everyone contribute as to types of
crops/flowers being grown, and submitting costs and gross revenues from
such
.mahalo
>From: "Arlos"
>Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>
>Subject: Re: Seeding a Biofilter using ammonia
>Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 15:22:56 -0700
>
>Leslie,
>
> You a chemist by chance? I remind myself daily of what we take for
>granted, clean water included.
>
>Arlos
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Leslie Ter Morshuizen
>To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>Date: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 12:04 PM
>Subject: Re: Seeding a Biofilter using ammonia
>
>
> >
> >Bear in mind that although 1.0 mg/l ammonia will not kill tough species
>like
> >tilapia, it will have long term damaging effects on their gills. <
>0.1mg/l
> >ammonia is more acceptable for culture conditions (pH dependant).
> >
> >> You can add pure ammonia (about one capful per tank per day)
> >> to the system until ammonia (NH3) levels reach 1.0 mg/l. Maintain 1.0
>mg/l
> >> ammonia levels for at least 2 weeks before adding fish. After one week,
> >> begin monitoring the nitrite (NO2 -) levels. Stabile ammonia and
>nitrite
> >> levels indicate that the biofilter is ready for fish.
> >>
> >> I mentioned this to Arlos, but it's ironic that in some of the
> >> "underdeveloped" countries they don't have many of our problems with
> >> livestock because they still get sunshine and grass
.they aren't
>forced
> >> to grow too fast or over-produce (such as our dairy cattle). They work
> >> with what they have and tend to stay closer to the natural systems that
> >> keep things in check.
> >
> >In underdeveloped countries these natural things include people dying on
>the
> >streets from basic conditions such as starvation, diarea and
>malnutrition!
> >
> >Leslie
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
. .
| Message 27
Subject: Re: curled tomato leaves-calcium deficiency?
From: Bertmcl
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 23:10:22 EDT
Mark,
My outdoor Aquaponics beds were a little low in Calcium so we added Gypsum to
the fish tank, no problems at all with the Tilapia. I will e-mail you the mix
tomorrow.
Bert
|
