Aquaponics Digest - Thu 08/30/01
Message 1: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-Monitoring hardware & thank you
from Mark.Bell1 'at' defence.gov.au
Message 2: Hobbyist vs. Commercial
from Roy Houston
Message 3: Re: Hobbyist vs. Commercial
from Andrei Calciu
Message 4: RE: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-Monitoring hardware & thank you
from "Chris Jeppesen"
Message 5: Re: Hobbyist vs. Commercial
from "Robert Rogers"
Message 6: RE: Hobbyist vs. Commercial
from "Chris Jeppesen"
Message 7: More vortex questions
from Carolyn Hoagland
Message 8: Monitoring/Alarm systems
from "gutierrez-lagatta"
Message 9: Re: costs and competition and quality
from Arlus Farnsworth
Message 10: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-Monitoring hardware & thankyou
from Arlus Farnsworth
Message 11: Re: Removing solids from a closed system
from dreadlox
Message 12: Re: Water level sensor
from Arlus Farnsworth
Message 13: Water level sensor
from Roy Houston
Message 14: Re: Removing solids from a closed system
from Mick
Message 15: Re: Bed of Coals, Better "Combustion"
from Arlus Farnsworth
Message 16: Re: costs and competition and quality
from "Brent Bingham"
Message 17: Economics
from "TGTX"
Message 18: Re: Economics
from Mick
Message 19: Re: Economics - Ted's numbers
from "gutierrez-lagatta"
Message 20: Re: Monitoring hardware
from "TGTX"
Message 21: Re: English lessons
from "Juan C. Bobeda"
Message 22: Re: Economics
from "Gene Batten"
Message 23: alarm/ communication etc.
from "PearceKlan"
Message 24: Re: Yo, Brent
.Waste heat to cool, fueled by Biogas
from "TGTX"
Message 25: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-Monitoring hardware & thank you
from Bill Patrick
Message 26: Re: More vortex questions
from dreadlox
. .
| Message 1
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-Monitoring hardware & thank you
From: Mark.Bell1 'at' defence.gov.au
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 16:30:57 +0800
Is it a policy of the members of this to do everything the hard way
Response no
and as el cheapo as possible
Response yes if it works
or is it allowed to we to do it right once in a while?
Response being right does not mean it has to be commercially feasible
Why on earth would anybody want to jury right a whole bunch of oddball
hardware to monitor a few basic parameters, when a whole array of such
sensors are readily available commercially, are made to high standards and
tolerances and are highly accurate?Sure, you will blow a couple of hundred
bucks more, but you will have a reliable instrument for years and years,
I had a look at the sight and then contacted them for the job I require the
DT 800 'at' $5300 plus I then had to buy sensors $3000+ plus installation The
thing you may not have understood is the amount of inputs required I need
about 40 plus I am monitoring air , water, and light parameters both in and
out of the greenhouse before and after system components (bio filters beds
tanks etc. plus I then need to actuate misters pumps aerators heaters etc.
etc.
I wanted to see the approach of other engineers who have designed these
units so I could save myself precious time and thanks to Bill and others
who sent good info I found the way ahead. There is no jury rigging most
Computers have the ports and slots, sound cards have better a to d
converters in them than the company's you named use in there data
acquisition modules. The home PC has a better MTBF than any data
acquisition unit I have been able to get the specs for. so now it comes to
accuracy with the software I am now going to use (visual basic) I can
generate cal tables for each sensor so the accuracy then comes down to my
cal solutions which I will buy from a commercial source.
So why do I want to do this. To compare high productivity parameters to
low productivity parameters and then do some trend analysis. And hey if it
is a quality product that I can write good instructions for I would gladly
give the info to any person who is in an environmentally friendly business.
Now Andrei D. Calciu i think I have answered all your questions.
Bill thank you very much the links were good and helped alot i am week on
software the mutiplexer you mentioned is under soft ware controll i was not
aware of this angle. Thanks for the door.
High regards to all
Mark
. .
| Message 2
Subject: Hobbyist vs. Commercial
From: Roy Houston
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 08:43:53 -0500
>I got to understand one thing. Is it a policy of the members of this to do
>everything the hard way and as el cheapo as possible or is it allowed to
we
>to do it right once in a while?
While this sounds like a flame from Andrei, I'm sure that it's not.
I think people just need to remember that some readers are/have a strictly
commercial interest in hydroponics/aquaponics. Consequently they will
hardly ever attempt to spend the time necessary to design and custom build
something that is readily available commercially at a reasonable cost. It's
not worth their time or energy, nor is the risk acceptable given the savings
realized relative to the potential loss related to a catastrophic failure.
I think there are some hobbyists that also fit in with the commercial group.
They want to grow their own produce/fish while having a minimal amount of
their time invested, and would not hesitate to purchase readily available
technology.
On the other hand, there are some hobbyists who take great delight in
designing and building features/devices for their system simply because they
enjoy the challenge. Most of the projects would probably never scale up to
the commercial level, however some projects such as the homemade vortex
filter/clarifiers probably could reliably be built on a large enough scale
for commercial use.
Lastly, saving a couple hundred dollars on one project may not mean much to
the majority of people, but multiply this over ten projects (assuming you
were successful in all of them) and the savings begin to add up. I have
read numerous threads where ungodly amounts of money have been spent with
little or no hope of ever reaching profitability based on my limited
understanding of the system descriptions.
The hydroponics/aquaponics field is very broad, reaching cultures on all
seven continents (yes even antarctica). What is suitable or of interest to
one person may not be for others. That's to be expected in a forum such as
this.
Let's not discourage the posts that are directly related to fish and plants.
I for one would enjoy seeing more.
Roy
. .
| Message 3
Subject: Re: Hobbyist vs. Commercial
From: Andrei Calciu
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:40:39 -0400
Roy,
your post was right on the money. You were right, i did not intend to flame
anyone, I just wanted to point out that with any kind of aquaponics system
there are so many new and innovative things to do (remember the solids
separator vortex discussion of last week), that one would better spend
their time improving their system's viability and functionality in those
pioneering areas, rather than trying to re-invent the wheel on something so
benign as monitoring various parameters.
-_______________
Andrei D. Calciu (VA-4270)
NEC America, Inc.
14040 Park Center Dr.
Herndon, VA 20171-3227
Voice: 703-834-4273
Fax: 703-787-6613
This message and any attachment are confidential. If you are not the
intended recipient, please telephone or email the sender and delete the
message and any attachment from your system. If you are not the intended
recipient you must not copy this message or attachment or disclose the
contents to any other person.
Roy Houston wrote:
Let's not discourage the posts that are directly related to fish and
plants.
I for one would enjoy seeing more.
Roy
. .
| Message 4
Subject: RE: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-Monitoring hardware & thank you
From: "Chris Jeppesen"
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 07:02:28 -0700
Mark
I didn't understand your full intent, to use the A to D capability of the sound card is a great
idea. We used to use game cards for that in a 17 million dollar chemical plant. Jury riggin, I
don't think so.
Chris Jeppesen
>Is it a policy of the members of this to do everything the hard way
>Why on earth would anybody want to jury right a whole bunch of oddball hardware to monitor a
few basic parameters, when a whole array of such sensors are readily available commercially
. .
| Message 5
Subject: Re: Hobbyist vs. Commercial
From: "Robert Rogers"
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:08:20 -0400
If anyone is using a monitoring / alarm system, I,and I'm sure others would
appreciate any comments and sources.
I am looking for a system that can page or call if an alarm situation
occurs.
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From:
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: Hobbyist vs. Commercial
>
> Roy,
>
> your post was right on the money. You were right, i did not intend to
flame
> anyoneRoy Houston wrote:
>
> Let's not discourage the posts that are directly related to fish and
> plants.
> I for one would enjoy seeing more.>
> Roy
>
>
>
>
>
. .
| Message 6
Subject: RE: Hobbyist vs. Commercial
From: "Chris Jeppesen"
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 07:09:08 -0700
Three cheers to Roy you said it better than I could think it.
Chris Jeppesen
>Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 08:43:53 -0500
> Roy Houston Hobbyist vs. Commercial Aquaponics List
Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>
>>I got to understand one thing. Is it a policy of the members of this to do
>>everything the hard way and as el cheapo as possible or is it allowed to
>we
>>to do it right once in a while?
>
>While this sounds like a flame from Andrei, I'm sure that it's not.
>
>I think people just need to remember that some readers are/have a strictly
>commercial interest in hydroponics/aquaponics. Consequently they will
>hardly ever attempt to spend the time necessary to design and custom build
>something that is readily available commercially at a reasonable cost. It's
>not worth their time or energy, nor is the risk acceptable given the savings
>realized relative to the potential loss related to a catastrophic failure.
>
>I think there are some hobbyists that also fit in with the commercial group.
>They want to grow their own produce/fish while having a minimal amount of
>their time invested, and would not hesitate to purchase readily available
>technology.
>
>On the other hand, there are some hobbyists who take great delight in
>designing and building features/devices for their system simply because they
>enjoy the challenge. Most of the projects would probably never scale up to
>the commercial level, however some projects such as the homemade vortex
>filter/clarifiers probably could reliably be built on a large enough scale
>for commercial use.
>
>Lastly, saving a couple hundred dollars on one project may not mean much to
>the majority of people, but multiply this over ten projects (assuming you
>were successful in all of them) and the savings begin to add up. I have
>read numerous threads where ungodly amounts of money have been spent with
>little or no hope of ever reaching profitability based on my limited
>understanding of the system descriptions.
>
>The hydroponics/aquaponics field is very broad, reaching cultures on all
>seven continents (yes even antarctica). What is suitable or of interest to
>one person may not be for others. That's to be expected in a forum such as
>this.
>
>Let's not discourage the posts that are directly related to fish and plants.
>I for one would enjoy seeing more.>
>Roy
. .
| Message 7
Subject: More vortex questions
From: Carolyn Hoagland
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:08:30 -0500
For those of you who are experimenting with vortex filters, can you
tell me if unicellular algae dispersed though out the water column is
affect by the vortex filtering process? Is it:
heavier than water (and thus spun to the outside and down?)
lighter than water (gathers at the inside and top )
seems to be about the same specific gravity as the water (unaffected)
Thanks,
Carolyn
. .
| Message 8
Subject: Monitoring/Alarm systems
From: "gutierrez-lagatta"
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:55:38 -0500
Bob,
I was just talking to somebody about this this morning. What you're
looking for is called SensaPhone - it keeps track of 6 parameters (I
think) and will dial first one phone number and then a back-up number
continouously until someone answers. Radio Shack has a similar
product I think.
> If anyone is using a monitoring / alarm system, I,and I'm sure
others would
> appreciate any comments and sources.
> I am looking for a system that can page or call if an alarm
situation
> occurs.
. .
| Message 9
Subject: Re: costs and competition and quality
From: Arlus Farnsworth
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 08:56:46 -0700
This is going to sound flippant, there should be a freedom index for
incoming products. The cheaper the labor the more we leverage against
slavery.
> Do we apply more technology,
> scream for tariffs, grovel for subsities?
. .
| Message 10
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-Monitoring hardware & thankyou
From: Arlus Farnsworth
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:40:36 -0700
I use the serial port with a rs232 line converter. The microcontroller
has a built in serial interface, and data can be read by timing a
suitable size capacitor. You might want to start with a junky computer
and an io card, not the built in motherboard serial port. If you relate
your specifications perhaps I might manufacture such a device.
There are many data monitoring solutions, some have special cards and
others can read serial and parallel (old style mouse ports and printer
port) and are freeware or shareware.
Try one of the shareware repositories. Even if you use the printer port
and free software you might still have to construct a special cable or
simple interface circuitry.
There exist specific hyroponic monitoring and control solutions, some
interface with pc. I think I have seen similar aquaculture products.
I would avoid using the 7 sound cards due to resource scarcity
. you
will run out of interupts.
Mark.Bell1 'at' defence.gov.au wrote:
>
> Hi
> I am looking at interfacing environmental parameter monitors (temp
> humidity light pH etc. to an old computer.
. .
| Message 11
Subject: Re: Removing solids from a closed system
From: dreadlox
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:31:44 -0700
Mick wrote:
If the breeding cages can handle all
> of the solids from the 850 gal fish tank, then it's a solution requiring
> no additional technology/moving parts and very little expense.
>
> Mick
Mick, glad to see an idea "catch a fire!". If you could open the growbed
to the left or right so as to allow the trough to extend even say 4-5
inches over the edge, you could just scrape the detritus (organic
rubbish) right into a bucket with worms? and compost? waiting below.
A valve at the bottom of that pail gives you worm casting tea and the
"juices" from the drip water from the scrapings to fertilize your
plants.
Saves you scooping up stuff, and kinda streamlines your operation. Of
course all depends on your setup and space, and wishes.
Just some ideas.
><{{{*> Mike Barnett <*}}}><
JAMAICA, West Indies
. .
| Message 12
Subject: Re: Water level sensor
From: Arlus Farnsworth
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:31:28 -0700
You could always fake it. Put in a gallon (or whatever increment is
suitable) at a time and record the reading. Now you can use the fraction
of in between one reading and another to simulate fractions of the
gallon (or unit). Not the most elegant solution, but hey it's quick and
easy to calibrate for any dimensional variation. I would imagine there
are only few water levels you would be interested in.
In between set points for instance. You could also fill the container at
a constant rate and automatically sample every so often or push a button
every quarter inch to generate a reference list of numbers. Just fill an
array with these numbers and start with the array element that is
fractional to the input spread. Go up or down to find the closest match.
Ian Franzmann wrote:
> http://www.DrDAQ.com cheap fully functional (no signal conditioning
> required) high schools are using them.
> Reasons for monitoring:
> I have realized it may be of value to monitor the tank water level every X
> minutes to determine leaks, calculate water loss from
> transpiration/evaporation, low water alarm, low water tank fill, volume of
> water off tank at any paticular time, how many BTUs heat in volume of water
> present eg. energy required for a constant temp, Etc, Etc.
. .
| Message 13
Subject: Water level sensor
From: Roy Houston
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:14:23 -0500
Ian:
I'm pretty sure what you are describing is a cycloidal movement, and the
equation defining this movement is in any standard calculus book. Mine are
packed up currently or I would have a look (if you don't get any
satisfactory answers shortly let me know and I will look for my college
textbook).
Roy
>The Problem:
>I found the Computer returned water level value (from Dr-Daq) is not
>linear. due to using a float arm and the linear slider potentiometer.
>There are two separate concentric circles one for the slider pot and one
>for the float.
>Both project onto a chord of each circle.
>The slider potentiometer arm is slotted so that it moves the slider with
>out bending it.
>The vertical slider pot distance is the chord of the inner circle.
>The Pot slider moves up & down along a chord of a circle of the slider
>potentiometer arm and moves the same angle the float arm scribes.
>The vertical diameter of the outer circle is the chord of the float circle.
>The float /slider potentiometer arm angle change is not equal for every
>unit of water level change.
. .
| Message 14
Subject: Re: Removing solids from a closed system
From: Mick
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 15:25:37 -0500
>
>
>
> Saves you scooping up stuff, and kinda streamlines your operation. Of
> course all depends on your setup and space, and wishes.
>
> Just some ideas.>
> ><{{{*> Mike Barnett <*}}}><
> JAMAICA, West Indies
----
Great idea, Mike! My tech guys say "No go" for this plant tray but they are
working on incorporating your idea into the next one we build.
Thanks bunches,
Mick
. .
| Message 15
Subject: Re: Bed of Coals, Better "Combustion"
From: Arlus Farnsworth
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 13:32:04 -0700
So instead of fire, use filter beds of organisms that have enzymes to
break down the fuel, or organic material, at a lower temperature or
energy level. By pumping in oxygen in pulses the oxidation/reduction
mechanism is enhanced? Like a compost heap, heat would possibly be
generated.
Would you mix the air/liquid first as in cool-mist? What about a slow
version of a jet engine instead of a combustion cycle? Would a substrate
of trace elements ensure adequate levels of micronutrient availability
for plant needs?
TGTX wrote:
>
> Sulfur, Iron, Phosphorus, Manganese, and other Cycling Considerations In A
> Conceptual Barbeque Pit
> What kind of redox potential could be charted and graphed if I brought in
> oxygen, then, dampened off the oxygen, then brought oxygen in again, and so
> on, like the surf or tide, or the breath, or the heart beat, to this kinda
> primative BBQ charcoal analogy? Bellows and Dampening
.Bellows and
> Dampening
.>
> And how do you think it might effect the dynamics of S, Fe, P, Mn, and other
> cycling considerations in aquaponic systems if you replace the concept of
> fire with bacterial activity and respiration?
>
> Ted
. .
| Message 16
Subject: Re: costs and competition and quality
From: "Brent Bingham"
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:50:36 -0700
Yes,
Much of what is coming into the US is produced by slave labor / prison labor
and or political detainees. That said do we want Uncle Sam to do it all? The
more trade we do with places like China the more freedom slips in.
Then you have places that trade at less than cost in order to get real money
to use in the open market. Others are using drug money to buy produce then
ship it in to launder the drug money. Within reason they do not care
if they take a lose on the load of vegetables.
I do not know if there is an answer.
Brent
----- Original Message -----
From: "Arlus Farnsworth"
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 8:56 AM
Subject: Re: costs and competition and quality
> This is going to sound flippant, there should be a freedom index for
> incoming products. The cheaper the labor the more we leverage against
> slavery.
>
> > Do we apply more technology,
> > scream for tariffs, grovel for subsities?
>
. .
| Message 17
Subject: Economics
From: "TGTX"
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 18:49:37 -0500
A few questions have been raised about the economics of aquaponics.
First I advise that you keep the capital cost of the tanks, greenhouse, grow
beds, pumps, etc. minimal so that initial investment and any debt service is
minimized. Duct tape, bailing wire, salvage materials, sweat
equity
integrating thermal mass and solar into the system
.multiple
resource use
.you get the idea.
For planning purposes, you could use this general rule of thumb for income:
A 2000 square foot greenhouse, which includes walkway aisles and tank
footprint space could bring $20,000 a year gross receipts in fish and/or
plant sales. So, $10 per square foot per year, roughly. Please, don't even
ask me about ratios of fish and plants and cost per pound of anything. I
won't go there right now. These are fairly conservative, run of the mill
estimates on what prices you can get, though
.whether it's run of the mill
tomatoes, or herbs, or salad greens, or fish
For planning purposes, you could use this general rule of thumb for cost of
production of everything that comes out of the greenhouse (this does not
include debt service):
Half of what your gross receipts are. So if your gross receipts are
$20,000, you might set your goal of cost of production at $10,000. If your
labor or energy costs are high, the cost of production can be closer to 75%
of your gross receipts, and that is why DESIGN and OPERATION finess is
critical.
Finessing the initial capital cost by DESIGN PRINCIPLES, and finessing cost
of production by sound marketing, sound technical operations, and sound
business practices, are all part of the keys to profitability. PLAN, PLAN,
PLAN, and then PLAN AGAIN.
THE ABOVE HAS BEEN A GROSS OVERSIMPLIFICATION JUST TO MAKE AN ASSERTION THAT
AQUAPONIC PRODUCTION CAN BE COMMERCIAL AND PROFITABLE, GIVEN THE PROPER
CONDITIONS OF INITIAL DESIGN, INVESTMENT AND OPERATION, AND ALSO TO SUGGEST
AN ECONOMY OF SCALE WITHOUT EXACTLY EXPRESSING WHAT THE OPTIMUM SIZE
OPERATION MIGHT BE
ALL OF THAT DETAIL IS UP TO Y'ALL
THEY SAY THAT THE
DEVIL IS IN THE DETAIL, AND MANDELBROT SAID THE OUTCOME IS SENSITIVE TO
INITIAL CONDITIONS, WHETHER WE ARE TALKING JULIA SETS OR CRICKET
I
ROUNDED A LOT OF FIGURES JUST SO AS TO MAKE IT SIMPLE. I GAVE SOME FAIRLY
MIDDLE OF THE ROAD FIGURES JUST TO MAKE IT REASONABLE FOR MOST REASONABLE
DESIGN CONFIGURATIONS.
THERE. I DID IT. NOW, DO NOT BE AFRAID. DON'T WORRY. JUST PROCEED, IF
YOU ARE SO MOVED.
This helps, eh?
I Bid You Peace, And
May God Bless You All.
Ted
. .
| Message 18
Subject: Re: Economics
From: Mick
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 19:17:53 -0500
> This helps, eh?
>
> I Bid You Peace, And
> May God Bless You All.
>
> Ted
---
Actually, that helped a great deal, thanks. We only have about 800 sq. ft. to
work with unless we build another greenhouse. Very small scale operation. The
figures you quoted were sort of what I had guesstamated. We've tried to keep
the construction costs in cash and have no debt service. That's probably the
key for us. This let's us have a learning curve without the rush to get a
payment made.
Thanks for taking the time to post that for us newbies.
Mick
. .
| Message 19
Subject: Re: Economics - Ted's numbers
From: "gutierrez-lagatta"
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 19:21:36 -0500
Two bugaboos to be aware of with Ted's numbers, which sound reasonable
to me:
1. I'm not sure whther he deducted some amount for labor
.you should
always be able to pay yourself at least what it would cost to hire
somebody to do the day to day work. Think what might happen if you:
a. got hepatitis, b. broke your arm. Both can happen, I can
presonally vouch for it, and your business is at a dead stop if you
don't have the ability to hire a back-up. If the business is not at
least at break-even under these conditions you probably don't want to
do it for the long haul. Short-term, start-up times are different,
but be sure to include this in your planning.
2. Beware of assuming that if one 2000 sq ft GH can produce 20,000
then 6000 sq ft can produce 60,000
.there are critical points where
youneed to add more management and infrastructure and you will wind up
making less than you would with a small operation.
Adriana
> Actually, that helped a great deal, thanks. We only have about 800
sq. ft. to
> work with unless we build another greenhouse. Very small scale
operation. The
> figures you quoted were sort of what I had guesstamated. We've
tried to keep
> the construction costs in cash and have no debt service.
. .
| Message 20
Subject: Re: Monitoring hardware
From: "TGTX"
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 19:32:32 -0500
>From: Bill Patrick
>Check these guys out
>http://www.rtdusa.com/
>Here's the card I have used the AD2110 we did everything differential so
>only had 8 inputs
>http://www.rtdusa.com/ada1110.htm
>It worked great, they have a multiplexer to expand the number of inputs,
>but I can't find it on the site. With it we had 23 differential
>channels with only one card in the PC.
>Good luck. Of course I don't have anything to do with these guys other
>than I have used their product. They provided good support
>Bill
Way to be Bill. Howzit goin', Amigo? Great visit we had! Let's do it
again!
Wanted to let y'all know that there is a "Growmaster" series of greenhouse
computer control systems, from Micro-Grow Greenhouse Systems, Inc., which
offer options in environmental control. One of those options is the
Growlink Program connected to a PC. As a stand-alone system, all features
incling programming ans system reports are available to the grower. With
the Growlink PC program, you benefit from remote operation, graphs, and
enhanced reporting capabilities. Manual override switches, an LCD display,
output status LEDs, and programming switches for the grower are located on
the front panel.
Here are some available sensor inputs to this series of products:
Air Temperature
Hot Water Temperature
Soil Temperature
Outdoor Humidity
Relative Humidity
Quantum Solar (PAR)
Solar Radiation
System Override Inputs
CO2 Levels.
Here are some of the Controlled Equipment links that can be tapped into the
Brains of these systems:
Exhaust Fans
Evaporative Cooler Pad Pumps
Evaporative Cooler Vents
Positive Pressure Cooling
Motorized Roof and Side Vents
Proportional Roll-Up Curtains
Shade and Energy Curtains
Fog Systems
HID Crop Lighting
Horizontal Air Flow Fans
Gas-Fired Heaters
Steam and Hot Water Heating
Hot Water Mixing Valves
Boiler Control
Floor Heating Systems
Soil Heating Systems
Heated Irrigation Water
Alarm System Dialers
CO2 Burners and Injectors
The Growmaster GROWCOM product goes for about $1,800. The Growmaster PROCOM
goes for abour $2500. The Contactor Panel is about $700. and The Growlink
Communication Package is about $1800.
I have used the Micro Grow Products and can recommend them to those that can
afford them. But for those that can't
well
the old expense
thing is why me humble self (who am just standing on the sidelines being a
spectator but hopefully an encourager)
. and the "Diverse Aquaponic
Genius Electronic/Engineering/Wizard/Guru Compadre Dudes", who are now on
this list but who shall remain anonymous at their own discretion, are
working
.slaving away in the midnight hours
(heh, heh
.no pressure,
guys
) on a neat prototype for a CHEAP BUT EFFECTIVE, shade cloth
controller system for the greenhouse. Right Guys?
Ted
Insufferable Irritant, but Hopeful Catalyst.
. .
| Message 21
Subject: Re: English lessons
From: "Juan C. Bobeda"
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 20:42:13 -0400
Adriana, the meaning of "chalupa" is Sloop, a small light vessel. In
Mexico it is the name of a small two person boat. Also in Mexico it is
the name of a small corn cake with some kind of topping on it.
Juan
gutierrez-lagatta wrote:
> One of my favorites is the "Coffee Coolata" which was marketed by
> Dunkin Donuts - the closest translation in spanish is "big fat female
> rear end
.". Nice drink, huh?
> >A fast food chain here in the states (Taco Bell) created the
> "Gordita" (little fat girl) brilliant piece of research, eh? "Would
> you like to try one of our Little fat girls?" their next was the
> "Chalupa"
Odd, no one I know has a clue as to what it means. I'm
> affraid it's going to come out of historical texts as a derogatory
> term applied by Spanish padres during the times of Inca conquest,
> "Bring me the filthy Chalupa" referring to an Inca virgin.
>
> As to "ensure" vs."insure", this is a very common error in the US.
> Another one, is to confuse "effect" and "affect". One prominent
> hydroponic magazine makes this error over and over again in every
> issue.
>
> Adriana
. .
| Message 22
Subject: Re: Economics
From: "Gene Batten"
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:06:49 -0400
Ted,
Thanks for the numbers and advise. Every little bit of info helps those like
me who are looking into aquaponics without the benefit of experience, yet.
You seem to confirme my suspicion. That is that aquaponics can be
profitable, but it is not easy. If it was easy, more people would be doing
it. Like most conventional businesses, the operation must be well planned
and well run to make a reasonable profit. It is not a sure road to wealth,
but aquaponics can yield a reasonable profit while providing an "earth
friendly" product.
I hope others will share their views and experience related to the economics
and profitability of aquaponics.
.Gene Batten
----- Original Message -----
From: "TGTX"
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 7:49 PM
Subject: Economics
> A few questions have been raised about the economics of aquaponics.
>
> First I advise that you keep the capital cost of the tanks, greenhouse,
grow
> beds, pumps, etc. minimal so that initial investment and any debt service
is
> minimized. Duct tape, bailing wire, salvage materials, sweat
> equity
integrating thermal mass and solar into the system
.multiple
> resource use
.you get the idea.>
> For planning purposes, you could use this general rule of thumb for
income:
> A 2000 square foot greenhouse, which includes walkway aisles and tank
> footprint space could bring $20,000 a year gross receipts in fish and/or
> plant sales. So, $10 per square foot per year, roughly. Please, don't even
> ask me about ratios of fish and plants and cost per pound of anything. I
> won't go there right now. These are fairly conservative, run of the mill
> estimates on what prices you can get, though
.whether it's run of the
mill
> tomatoes, or herbs, or salad greens, or fish
>
> For planning purposes, you could use this general rule of thumb for cost
of
> production of everything that comes out of the greenhouse (this does not
> include debt service):
> Half of what your gross receipts are. So if your gross receipts are
> $20,000, you might set your goal of cost of production at $10,000. If
your
> labor or energy costs are high, the cost of production can be closer to
75%
> of your gross receipts, and that is why DESIGN and OPERATION finess is
> critical.
>
> Finessing the initial capital cost by DESIGN PRINCIPLES, and finessing
cost
> of production by sound marketing, sound technical operations, and sound
> business practices, are all part of the keys to profitability. PLAN,
PLAN,
> PLAN, and then PLAN AGAIN.
>
> THE ABOVE HAS BEEN A GROSS OVERSIMPLIFICATION JUST TO MAKE AN ASSERTION
THAT
> AQUAPONIC PRODUCTION CAN BE COMMERCIAL AND PROFITABLE, GIVEN THE PROPER
> CONDITIONS OF INITIAL DESIGN, INVESTMENT AND OPERATION, AND ALSO TO
SUGGEST
> AN ECONOMY OF SCALE WITHOUT EXACTLY EXPRESSING WHAT THE OPTIMUM SIZE
> OPERATION MIGHT BE
ALL OF THAT DETAIL IS UP TO Y'ALL
THEY SAY THAT
THE
> DEVIL IS IN THE DETAIL, AND MANDELBROT SAID THE OUTCOME IS SENSITIVE TO
> INITIAL CONDITIONS, WHETHER WE ARE TALKING JULIA SETS OR
CRICKET
I
> ROUNDED A LOT OF FIGURES JUST SO AS TO MAKE IT SIMPLE. I GAVE SOME FAIRLY
> MIDDLE OF THE ROAD FIGURES JUST TO MAKE IT REASONABLE FOR MOST REASONABLE
> DESIGN CONFIGURATIONS.
>
> THERE. I DID IT. NOW, DO NOT BE AFRAID. DON'T WORRY. JUST PROCEED, IF
> YOU ARE SO MOVED.
>
> This helps, eh?
>
> I Bid You Peace, And
> May God Bless You All.
>
> Ted
>
. .
| Message 23
Subject: alarm/ communication etc.
From: "PearceKlan"
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 18:05:34 -0700
Bob (and any others interested)
Alarm control/communicators are a big part of my day job.Water levels, temp,
humidity, AC loss and other parameters can be monitored with a standard home
alarm system.Many also use schedule functions and can operate/automate
relays and/or X-10 devices.Please feel free to ask any questions on or off
list.
cheers
Darren
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Rogers"
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 7:08 AM
Subject: Re: Hobbyist vs. Commercial
> If anyone is using a monitoring / alarm system, I,and I'm sure others
would
> appreciate any comments and sources.
> I am looking for a system that can page or call if an alarm situation
> occurs.
> Bob
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
>
> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 9:40 AM
> Subject: Re: Hobbyist vs. Commercial
>
>
> >
> > Roy,
> >
> > your post was right on the money. You were right, i did not intend to
> flame
> > anyoneRoy Houston wrote:
> >
> > Let's not discourage the posts that are directly related to fish and
> > plants.
> > I for one would enjoy seeing more.> >
> > Roy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
. .
| Message 24
Subject: Re: Yo, Brent
.Waste heat to cool, fueled by Biogas
From: "TGTX"
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 20:23:41 -0500
---- Original Message -----
From: TGTX
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 5:18 AM
Subject: Yo, Brent
.Waste heat to cool, fueled by Biogas
> >We use the waste heat to cool. 185 F and up will produce 46 F cool .The
> heat
> >from a generator fueled by Biogas will produce 14 tons of cooling per
> >180,000 BTU's. In hot climates the cooling is the Key part. We cool our
> >breeding fish under the greenhouse walkways and fool them into spawning
> >more times per year. The cooling also allows us to process and ship at
> lower
> >costs.
> >Brent
>
> About a month ago, I wrote:
>
> "Hi Brent. Where are you located and what do you ship? What breeding
fish
> species are you refering to? Tell me a little about your operation.
> Ted"
>
> But I don't know if it got to Mr. Brent, so here I go again.
>
> Cheers.
>
Howdy. Howzit goin? Hello?
.
. .
| Message 25
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-Monitoring hardware & thank you
From: Bill Patrick
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 22:09:30 -0400
TheStraits wrote:
>
> Can anyone provide some insight on automated controls ??
>
> Most everything I've seen is 'custom' & pretty expensive
> relative to the 'dropping like a Rock' prices of pc's.
I was in the process of sending another few sites last night when
Netscaper performed an illegal operation so I went to bed. We haven't
used any of these but they sure sound cool, distributed I/O via Ehternet
just run some cat. 5 and put in a hub.
http://www.optimate.com/optilogindex.htm
Cost seems fairly low.
What I was looking for when the PC went belly up was Koyo PLCdirect. I
think they changed their name, were bought or sold or something. I can
find plenty of vendors just not the manufacturer site. We used the 205,
total cost with all the cards was about $400.00. The 05 "Brick" starts
at around $100.00 and the next one up the 105 around $200.00. These are
the real things (PLC's) and work. They aren't Allen Bradley machines,
but for the money you can't complain. Here's a vendor site, I have some
friends in the process control business I'll call them and find out what
happened to PLCdirect and post their new site.
http://store2.automationdirect.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ExecMacro/plcdirect/homeframe.d2w/report
Again I'm not in the process control business, just bought a PLC205 once
and liked it.
Mark, glad to read you found the sites some use.
And Ted! I got your slaving the night oil right here Bud ;-)
Bill Patrick
. .
| Message 26
Subject: Re: More vortex questions
From: dreadlox
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 22:55:11 -0700
Carolyn Hoagland wrote:
>
> For those of you who are experimenting with vortex filters, can you
> tell me if unicellular algae
> seems to be about the same specific gravity as the water (unaffected)
>
> Thanks,
> Carolyn
--
Yes, my vote is above! Seems to be about the same specific gravity as
the water (unaffected). Unless it forms a foam and fractions off, it
will not be removed. Matted, hairy, or slimy algae strings are another
matter.
><{{{*> Mike Barnett <*}}}><
JAMAICA, West Indies
|
