Aquaponics Digest - Wed 10/17/01
Message 1: Re: using human waste fertilizer
from conrad wilkins
Message 2: RE: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED
from "Mark Allen Wells"
Message 3: RE: pfiesteria
from "Mark Allen Wells"
Message 4: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED
from Birdnest5@aol.com
Message 5: Re: Toxic Plastics in Horticulture
from "gutierrez-lagatta"
Message 6: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED
from (Bruce Schreiber)
Message 7: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED
from Mick
Message 8: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED
from "bennett"
Message 9: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED
from Mick
Message 10: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED
from "Lloyd R. Prentice"
Message 11: heat in the tank
from "Steven Medlock"
Message 12: Re: heat in the tank
from "Brent Bingham"
Message 13: Re: heat in the tank
from kris book
Message 14: LEDs
from Kevin Rhoades
Message 15: Re: LEDs
from kris book
Message 16: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED
from Mick
Message 17: Re: Kudos to Don Bailey - Nice Website
from "STEVE SPRING"
Message 18: Re: comments & questions from a newbie lurker
from "STEVE SPRING"
Message 19: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED
from "STEVE SPRING"
Message 20: Re: pfiesteria
from conrad wilkins
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| Message 1 |
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Subject: Re: using human waste fertilizer
From: conrad wilkins
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 22:15:28 -0500
In that perspective YUP Id agree.
Relieved Conrad : )
Mark Lum wrote:
> I had asked about the nutrient content of human urine, thinking of it as a
> nutrient source for plants. I had spawned someconfusion because I had so
> many questions on disparate topics all lumped together in my original post.
> Is for using human urine, I was thinking of predominantly third world
> nations, or other places where sewage treatment is lacking, as is available
> fertilizer (but, hey, everybody pees on a regular basis). Or in a domestic
> greywater/urinal effluent utilization system. I was imagining just a
> hydroponic/biofilter, with no fish component, just plants. Urine is
> sterile, so harmful microorganisms shouldn't be a problem. I thought that
> something like that kang kong that (from what I gather) grows very fast. It
> could be used for animal feed or even just compost. The nutrient input is
> free.
>
> You know how a large part of vitamin suplement pill gets excreted allegedly?
> Does that mean that human urine (at least from vitamin eaters) contains
> all sorts chelated minerals and vitamins for the plants??
> -Mark
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
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Subject: RE: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED
From: "Mark Allen Wells"
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 00:31:08 -0500
Gang,
I have several hundred pounds of fresh produce and veggies given to me almost weekly. Is it
possible that Tilapia will eat this with or instead of commercial feed?
Bob Bird
---
Bob,
I don't know about tilapia but some species of carp sure would.
This country has a thing about carp but in much of asia it is
the most widely eaten fish....just food for thought.
mark
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Subject: RE: pfiesteria
From: "Mark Allen Wells"
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 00:45:14 -0500
I am not an alarmist in the least, but anyone working around fish
should inform themselves about any pathogens that can do them or their
families harm.
pfiesteria piscicda is a bad actor and comes into play in water that has
a lot of nutrients,like we might find in a closed system.
www.mdsg.umd.edu/pfiesteria/
www.pfiesteria.org/pfiesteria/pfiesteria.html
www.epa.gov/owow/estuaries/pfiesteria/fact.html#6
----
Robert,
This is why our good (and very knowledgable) friend, Arlos was an advocate
of things like UV and ozone in closed loop systems. Thanks for the links.
Having worked in municipal wastewater treatment many years ago, I appreciate
being reminded of the unseen potential dangers that we often overlook.
Mark
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Subject: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED
From: Birdnest5@aol.com
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 01:54:41 EDT
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In a message dated 10/17/2001 1:32:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
writes:
> This country has a thing about carp but in much of asia it is
>
Mark,
Yea, but I don't live and "greenhouse" in Asia! I've caught carp before, and
you're right: we do have a "thing about carp..." Because the Tilapia are
herbavores, and they enjoy eating the cuttings from the beds - I thought they
might enjoy certain raw, unprocessed produce/veggies.
I juice carrots, and the carrot "tailings" I think would be perfect... yes?
By the way, has anyone ever tried growing carrots in these systems, (indoor,
S&S).
Bob
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In a message dated 10/17/2001 1:32:08 AM Eastern
Daylight Time, writes:
This country has a thing about carp but in much of asia
it is
the most widely eaten fish....
Mark,
Yea, but I don't live and "greenhouse" in Asia! I've caught carp before, and you're
right: we do have a "thing about carp..." Because the Tilapia are herbavores, and
they enjoy eating the cuttings from the beds - I thought they might enjoy certain raw,
unprocessed produce/veggies.
I juice carrots, and the carrot "tailings" I think would be perfect... yes? By the
way, has anyone ever tried growing carrots in these systems, (indoor, S&S).
Bob
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Subject: Re: Toxic Plastics in Horticulture
From: "gutierrez-lagatta"
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 07:43:04 -0500
It certainly is.
> Is that the Gordon Creaser that will be at the NC course next
month?
Adriana
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Subject: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED
From: (Bruce Schreiber)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 11:04:28 -0500 (CDT)
yes Tilapia and pacu will eat that and lawn clippings too
Bruce
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Subject: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED
From: Mick
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 11:47:40 -0500
Birdnest5@aol.com wrote:
>
> Gang,
> I have several hundred pounds of fresh produce and veggies given to me
> almost weekly. Is it possible that Tilapia will eat this with or
> instead of commercial feed?
>
> Bob Bird
------------------------------------------------------------------------
My tilapia readily eat lettuce, green bean plants and most leafy
vegetables.
Here's a tip for making tilapia food from produce:
Put whatever you've decided to try feeding them in a blender with a
little water. Blend it down. Not far enough to totally liquify but far
enough to reduce the chunk sizes to about the half the size of a pea.
Pour this substance in ice-cube trays. The trays that make mini
ice-cubes work best. Freeze until solid. I make a week's worth of food
at a time.
Freezing allows your food to float in the tank. Floating food, in my
opinion, is the best way to go. Much less fouling of the tank and you
can easily see if they will eat the food or not.
My tilapia seem to grow faster with a diet that has at least five
percent protein. If the plants you are feeding them don't provide the
protein, add the protein source to the blender mix. Some sources of
protein that I've used: frozen blood worms, whole eggs, brine shrimp
from my hatchery or bought frozen, cooked chicken pieces.
Fry require a much higher percentage of protein than adults as is
evidenced in the fact they will cannibalize smaller fry if they don't
get the protein in their diet. Since I started making my own fry food,
I lose very few to cannibalism.
Good luck,
Mick
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| Message 8 |
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Subject: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED
From: "bennett"
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 12:55:19 -0400
>protein that I've used: frozen blood worms, whole eggs, brine shrimp
>from my hatchery or bought frozen, cooked chicken pieces.
>
Do you cook the eggs? Do you put shells and all in the blender?
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| Message 9 |
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Subject: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED
From: Mick
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 13:07:21 -0500
bennett wrote:
>
> Do you cook the eggs? Do you put shells and all in the blender?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, the shells go into the compost pile. It would be prudent to cook
the eggs.
These eggs and the chicken protein come from free-range chickens I
raise. I know what the food chain has been from egg to adult chicken and
I know how they've been handled, I'm more confident about using these
raw eggs than I would be about uncooked eggs from a commercial source,
but to be safe, you can boil the eggs you add to the blender mixture.
Mick
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| Message 10 |
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Subject: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED
From: "Lloyd R. Prentice"
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 16:28:45 -0400
Hi, Mick
Mick wrote:
> Fry require a much higher percentage of protein than adults as is
> evidenced in the fact they will cannibalize smaller fry if they don't
> get the protein in their diet. Since I started making my own fry food,
> I lose very few to cannibalism.
Are your breeders producing all of your fry?
How did you obtain your breeding pairs?
Best wishes,
Lloyd R. Prentice
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| Message 11 |
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Subject: heat in the tank
From: "Steven Medlock"
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 16:23:26 -0500
I am just about ready to set up my boiler and radiators for heat in the
greenhouse. I was told that I can't use copper in the fish tank with hot
water running through it because of toxic problems. How about aluminum?
Stainless is usable? any other ideas? no reason not to use the system as a
double heater.
One more question what is a good grow light and how long a day to use
them. going into winter, I know that it needs to be done. I am growing
tomatoes.
Thanks,
Steve (red)
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Subject: Re: heat in the tank
From: "Brent Bingham"
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 15:23:28 -0700
We use black poly with a hydronic mixing valve, connected to an immersion
remote bulb line voltage thermostat, that controles a small hot water pump.
1000' of the poly was less than the lowest cost heat exchanger we could
price.
Even if the power to the main tank circulation pumps goes out the tanks
keep warm because the 1/25 hp pump and hydronic heating system are on the
power back up with the boilers. We keep the poly near the bottom of the
tanks anchored to small bricks. The heat rises up to the wet bulb and shuts
of the small pump.
Brent
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Medlock"
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 2:23 PM
Subject: heat in the tank
> I am just about ready to set up my boiler and radiators for heat in the
> greenhouse. I was told that I can't use copper in the fish tank with hot
> water running through it because of toxic problems. How about aluminum?
> Stainless is usable? any other ideas? no reason not to use the system as
a
> double heater.
>
> One more question what is a good grow light and how long a day to use
> them. going into winter, I know that it needs to be done. I am growing
> tomatoes.
> Thanks,
> Steve (red)
>
>
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| Message 13 |
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Subject: Re: heat in the tank
From: kris book
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 16:30:21 -0600
Steve,
I've never priced stainless tubing but, even if it's on the high end, it
makes sense to be sure of every element in that tank with your fish. As a
beginner in the grow-light game, you'll do fine with a phosphorous coated
halide, it is a good all around bulb. If you're growing plants that are
harvested when the days get shorter, then changing to a sodium bulb will
add greatly to your harvest. There is a conversion system that allows you
to just change bulbs from halide to sodium, otherwise halides and sodium
bulbs are not interchangeable.
As for light requirements the easiest way to explain it is, just maintain
the same day length as the first day of fall(Sept.22 or 23, I forget). If
memory serves correctly, that's a little more than 11 hours in our
latitudes here. Plants are really not aware of how long their day period
is, they only register the length of the longest dark period they
experience in each light/dark period(usually 24 hours). I'm mentioning
this so you'll understand that if you ever get a real bad cold spell, you
can leave your lights on 24 hours a day for a few days if you need the
extra heat that the lights produce. Your plants won't know if they've
been awake for one day or two or whatever, just be sure to return them to
their regular sleep cycle when the cold spell finishes.
You can conserve electricity on nice sunny days in winter. Since plants
only register that longest dark period each day, you could just turn on
the lights for 5 minutes at the end of their regular cycle and the plants
will register that 2 or 3 hour dark period as a time when the sun was
behind a cloud. Remember though, that every plant has a minimum amount of
light each day necessary for growth. So on stormy days, you will want to
start your lights when the sun is still up.
kris
On Wed, 17 Oct 2001 16:23:26 -0500 "Steven Medlock"
writes:
> I am just about ready to set up my boiler and radiators for heat in
> the
> greenhouse. I was told that I can't use copper in the fish tank
> with hot
> water running through it because of toxic problems. How about
> aluminum?
> Stainless is usable? any other ideas? no reason not to use the
> system as a
> double heater.
>
> One more question what is a good grow light and how long a day to
> use
> them. going into winter, I know that it needs to be done. I am
> growing
> tomatoes.
> Thanks,
> Steve (red)
>
>
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| Message 14 |
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Subject: LEDs
From: Kevin Rhoades
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 15:59:55 -0700
On the topic of using LEDs for growing plants, has anyone looked at the new
LED stop lights on buses, trucks (18 wheelers), and trailers? They are red
and very bright. I wonder if they are in the right spectrum for plants
(660nm I believe it was).
...K.R...
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| Message 15 |
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Subject: Re: LEDs
From: kris book
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 17:47:48 -0600
The L.E.D.s used in the Nasa growing experiments for the Mars mission are
red. If I remember correctly they tried both white and red, with red
doing the best.
k
On Wed, 17 Oct 2001 15:59:55 -0700 Kevin Rhoades
writes:
> On the topic of using LEDs for growing plants, has anyone looked at
> the new
> LED stop lights on buses, trucks (18 wheelers), and trailers? They
> are red
> and very bright. I wonder if they are in the right spectrum for
> plants
> (660nm I believe it was).
>
> ...K.R...
>
>
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| Message 16 |
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Subject: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED
From: Mick
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 19:12:44 -0500
>
> Are your breeders producing all of your fry?
>
> How did you obtain your breeding pairs?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Lloyd R. Prentice
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, (to the first question) but it is not the most economical way to go
for small to medium operations. It affords us self-sufficiency, which I
do strive for, but the cost in terms of initial hardware and breeding
colony price is prohibitive for less than commercial operations. In
addition, we easily spend three times the amount of work hours on the
breeding colonies compared to what we spend on the growout population.
We obtained black T. hornarium supermales and orange mossambicus females
from a breeder in Florida. (I'll post the name to you privately if you
like. I don't wish to violate Paula's rules about advertising on this
list.) The offspring of this cross is all male which eliminates any
breeding activity in the growout tank, which is desirable for good
growth rates. Breeding tilapia grow at a greatly reduced rate. There
are types of tilapia that grow faster but this type was the best I could
find that didn't require the addition of hormones to keep the population
all male.
I've found four stages in the tilapia life-cycle that each require a
different diet for optimal health and growth. If you order fingerlings
from a reputable breeder, you'll only need to know two diets.. one for
fingerling size and one for growout.
For anyone interested in raising tilapia from their own breeding
colonies, I stole an interesting post about diet at the larval stage
from Steve Watts on the tilapia newsgroup and will repost it below:
Mick
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is it common to have 20% runts? No. The occurrence of runts usually has
to
do with one of two things, genetics or nutrition. Obviously, inbred
populations will have a higher percentage of runts that non-inbred
populations. However, the most common factor that affects growth is
early
nutrition. O. niloticus, and I would guess that the other species as
well,
have a larval stage that is present from hatch to approximately 12 days
post fertilization (9 days post hatch). These days are based on 28 C
culture temperature. For the first 3 to 4 days after hatch, larvae do
not
feed. During the feeding phase of the larval stage (starting at day 7 to
8
post fertilization; we generally refer to this stage as swim-up, whereas
most of the yolk sac has been used and the larvae are quite buoyant) it
is
important that the larvae generally eat a live diet, usually
zooplankton.
Ultrastructure analysis of the teeth of these feeding larvae shows large
pointed teeth in the throat that point towards the esophagus,
characteristic of a carnivorous predator that uses sight feeding
mechanisms
to grasp prey so that the prey can't escape. These teeth are not
designed
to grind algae, making suspended algae a poor food source (niloticus
does
not have the ability to digest unicellular algae until after the
completion
of the larval phase....they can't produce the acid in the gut necessary
to
break the cell walls of the algae, even though algae can be found in the
gut at that time). At day 12 the larval phase is complete and the gut
has
developed sufficiently that alternative foods (algae, formulated diets)
can
be digested, absorbed and assimilated. If an inappropriate food source
is
fed to the larvae (such as most formulated feeds) or the larvae is
starved
the gut WILL NOT develop properly and growth will be stunted.
How do you prevent this problem? Make sure your new fry have a
zooplanton source for the first four or five days of feeding. We use
Artemia stage I larvae, but if your fry are in a greenwater system that
has
plenty of naturally-occurring zooplantkon (rotifers, copepods, etc) you
should be ok. The biggest mistake occurs when you feed a formulated diet
too early....they just can't handle it well and growth is compromised.
Will
they live....sure....will they grow....yes, but not maximally. Sorry for
the technical answer but perhaps it may help. There are some producers
out
there that can verify this information as well. Steve Watts
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| Message 17 |
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Subject: Re: Kudos to Don Bailey - Nice Website
From: "STEVE SPRING"
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 19:09:19 -0500
Did I miss something? Could someone email me the address of this website?
Pls. email to: careplus22. so I can find it at work. If a
website like this exists, I would like to submit some photos.
Thanks......Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charlie Shultz"
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 12:55 PM
Subject: Kudos to Don Bailey - Nice Website
Everyone should check out the new website Don Bailey built with information
about our summer website. Even if you don't plan to attend, the site is
FULL of great aquaponic photos! Thanks Don! Hope to see a few of you next
summer.
Charlie Shultz
UVI- St. Croix
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Subject: UVI Aquaponics Short Course
From: Donald Bailey
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 12:26:45 -0400
The UVI Tilapia Aquaculture and Aquaponics Short Course is scheduled for
June 23-29, 2002. The following link will take you to the site with
information on the class and a registration form.
http://rps.uvi.edu/AES/Aquaculture/UVIShortCourse.html
Be sure to follow the "Topics" link to 20 pages of course information.
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| Message 18 |
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Subject: Re: comments & questions from a newbie lurker
From: "STEVE SPRING"
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 19:25:33 -0500
Hi Mark Wells,
Don't want to step on the other Mark's toes, but we have spoken before so I
hope he doesn't mind.. Mark is very happy with the hybrid bluegills that he
gets & that is wonderful. I thought about buying from his supplier. Because
he is close...Indiana. But, by the time that I put in my travel time (gas,
time, etc. not to mention the cost of the bluegill hybrids), I figured that
I could buy from Ken's cheaper. I also asked Mark if his supplier had ever
won any awards for a world class hybrid. He said that his supplier had not,
but his supplier supplied ponds throughout Indiana and all were happy with
his product.
I don't have one single bluegill in my inventory. The catfish ate them all.
Now, Mark has experience in this area and he is happy with his supplier. I,
however, have faith in my friend Ken in Ga. I will be stocking my pond with
Ken's fingerlings in the spring.
So there, you have it. One betting on past experience and One betting on
blind faith.
Go for it.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Allen Wells"
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 8:30 AM
Subject: RE: comments & questions from a newbie lurker
So, where can I buy some of these sunfish/bluegill hybrids?
---
Hi Mark,
I also like the hybrid bluegill...they are easy for me to get.
Here in Indiana, the hatcheries make their rounds every month
to farm and fleet stores all over the state. They come around
in a special truck and usually have minnows, channel cats, striped
bass ...as well as the hybrid bluegill. Make some phone calls.
Also, check out www.aquanic.org ...you should be able to track
sources in your area. I try to avoid getting fish that have had
to travel too far because of losses.
The best source of duckweed is ponds in your area where it is
growing. Aquatic plant suppliers should have it too though. For
general info check out ..
http://www.mobot.org/jwcross/duckweed/
I would write more but have to run.....peace,
mark
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| Message 19 |
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Subject: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED
From: "STEVE SPRING"
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 19:27:55 -0500
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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I think I just asked this same question. Come on all of you guru's.
Steve
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Birdnest5@aol.com=20
To: aquaponics@townsqr.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 7:34 PM
Subject: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED
Gang,=20
I have several hundred pounds of fresh produce and veggies given to me =
almost weekly. Is it possible that Tilapia will eat this with or =
instead of commercial feed?=20
Bob Bird=20
------=_NextPart_000_0052_01C15741.D22C64A0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
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I think I just asked this same =
question. Come on=20
all of you guru's.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From:=20
Birdnest5@aol.com
To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 =
7:34=20
PM
Subject: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE =
FEED
Gang,
I =
have=20
several hundred pounds of fresh produce and veggies given to me almost =
weekly.=20
Is it possible that Tilapia will eat this with or =
instead=20
of commercial feed?
Bob Bird =
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| Message 20 |
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Subject: Re: pfiesteria
From: conrad wilkins
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 19:45:59 -0500
Mark
Do you or anyone else use UV or ozone in your systems. If so how??
cheers Conrad.
Mark Allen Wells wrote:
> Robert,
>
> This is why our good (and very knowledgable) friend, Arlos was an advocate
> of things like UV and ozone in closed loop systems. Thanks for the links.
> Having worked in municipal wastewater treatment many years ago, I appreciate
> being reminded of the unseen potential dangers that we often overlook.
>
> Mark
|
