Aquaponics Digest - Fri 10/19/01
Message 1: Re: heat in tank
from "Brent Bingham"
Message 2: Re: I need a drink
from Mick
Message 3: ground temperature
from "Robert Rogers"
Message 4: Project diagrams put to consideration
from pablo obiaga
Message 5: RE: ground temperature
from "Mark Allen Wells"
Message 6: Re: "UV and Ozone"
from "Christopher Jeffrey Go"
Message 7: RE: interesting catalogue entry
from "Mark Allen Wells"
Message 8: RE: "UV and Ozone"
from "Mark Allen Wells"
Message 9: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED
from Arlus Farnsworth
Message 10: Seeds
from Arlus Farnsworth
Message 11: Re: Seeds
from Mick
Message 12: Re: pfiesteria
from Arlus Farnsworth
Message 13: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED
from Mick
Message 14: Re: comments & questions from a newbie lurker
from Arlus Farnsworth
Message 15: Re: interesting catalogue entry
from Arlus Farnsworth
Message 16: Re: heat in tank
from Arlus Farnsworth
Message 17: Pacu in California
from Teresa Blackwood
Message 18: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED
from Arlus Farnsworth
Message 19: Xenon Excimer Florescent
from Arlus Farnsworth
Message 20: Re: Bed Media - Lava Rock
from "PearceKlan"
Message 21: Re: Bed Media - Lava Rock
from "NiCKEL"
Message 22: Re: Bed Media - Lava Rock
from Arlus Farnsworth
Message 23: Re: interesting catalogue entry
from Arlus Farnsworth
Message 24: dead pacu
from "Chris Jeppesen"
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| Message 1 |
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Subject: Re: heat in tank
From: "Brent Bingham"
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 09:10:51 -0700
We are in the middle of nowhere so we order from Grainger on line at
www.grainger.com look at the hydronic section and under HVAC controls
in the line voltage and remote bulb heading page 3335 of cat. 391.
It is very simple to mix the high heat boiler water with water returning
from the exchanger / loop using of the shelf hydronic parts.It is called
water tempering valve system. The poly is never over heated and you are
working with safer temperatures in the tanks. You determine
how fast you bring the water up to operating temperature and the operating
temperature range of the tanks. You can go low voltage but it is a little
more cost and a little more complicated.
Brent
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Medlock"
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 6:44 PM
Subject: heat in tank
> First thanks to Kris for the light info, I think I get it.
>
> Brent I think I have a clue on what you are doing can you help me with
more
> detail and where you got the thermostat bulb thing. I will be running
> strait off my gas boiler. It sounds like you have a good plan. Thanks
for
> the help.
> Steve(red)
>
>
>
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| Message 2 |
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Subject: Re: I need a drink
From: Mick
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 11:58:55 -0500
conrad wilkins wrote:
>
> Would it also be possible to put the food in a mesh bag thats
> suspended in the water.
> Conrad
>
> UPJames@aol.com wrote:
>
> > Hi Mick,
> > I use to feed Sturgeon with brine shrimp by hatching the shrimp and
> > then freezing them in ice cube trays. Then I took a a piece of
> > Styrofoam and cut into a square with the center removed. I then
> > attached a piece of screen to the bottom.
> > Jim
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Geniuses.. er Geni? What is the plural of genius? Combining both ideas
is my solution. Thanks! I happen to have some plastic mesh bags that
will work just fine suspended from styro squares or anything that
floats.
Yep, yep.. today is going much better.
Mick
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| Message 3 |
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Subject: ground temperature
From: "Robert Rogers"
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 13:20:38 -0400
Does anyone on the list know where I can access data on the mean
temperature of the ground by latitude and depth.
Thanks Bob
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| Message 4 |
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Subject: Project diagrams put to consideration
From: pablo obiaga
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:08:22 -0300
Hi all:
I've done some pretty design work in Word Format I could send attached to
does willing. I feel proud for the simplicity but I would like (need) your
input in terms of viabillity.
It uses only one pump both for oxygen and growbeds. Tank and growbeds are
send hand bathtubs. Greenhouse has not been designed yet.
It is a small project thought for low budget (South America). That is
relativelly Hi costs for industrialized input versus low prices for produce
in an overtaxed economy.
Thanks
Pablo
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| Message 5 |
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Subject: RE: ground temperature
From: "Mark Allen Wells"
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 13:15:48 -0500
Does anyone on the list know where I can access data on the mean
temperature of the ground by latitude and depth.
Thanks Bob
------
Bob, I am not sure but if you don't have any luck finding it you might
try the "ask a geologist" page at the US Geological Survey website.
http://walrus.wr.usgs.gov/ask-a-geologist/
good luck,
mark
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| Message 6 |
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Subject: Re: "UV and Ozone"
From: "Christopher Jeffrey Go"
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 18:18:01 +0000
Hi, I'm Christopher, from the Philippines. I'm new to Aquaponics,
Aquaculture, Hydroponics, and Agriculture. I just started subscription in
this mailing list this week.
I have a question regarding UV and Ozone. This might sound like a dumb
question but won't the UV/Ozone kill the good bacteria in the fish tank?
Thanks.
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| Message 7 |
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Subject: RE: interesting catalogue entry
From: "Mark Allen Wells"
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 13:26:37 -0500
Just a little FYI.
https://ecustomer.delta-education.com/search/product.asp?part_no=010-5036
----
Thanks for the link, Devon. I have done something very similar with a
90 gal tank in my living room. I removed the glass tops. Found some
scrap acrylic at work and cut it to fit. Then cut holes for 3 in. net
pots. I had to make a light that I could adjust and suspend from the
ceiling. I could have done better here with some of the reflectors
that are available now, but the four 48" daylight tubes seem to be doing
the job. I wired two rotary switches in to be able to shut off 2 tubes
if I am in the room and want softer lighting. I was wondering if my
4 marineland biowheels would be enough biofiltration...so far so good
but I just have 2 dozen hybrid bluegill fingerlings in the tank. It was
a fun project that I get a lot of enjoyment out of and hope to put in
a local pet store soon.
have a great weekend everyone...
mark
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| Message 8 |
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Subject: RE: "UV and Ozone"
From: "Mark Allen Wells"
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 13:56:32 -0500
Hi, I'm Christopher, from the Philippines. I'm new to Aquaponics,
Aquaculture, Hydroponics, and Agriculture. I just started subscription in
this mailing list this week.
I have a question regarding UV and Ozone. This might sound like a dumb
question but won't the UV/Ozone kill the good bacteria in the fish tank?
----
Welcome christopher...there are no dumb questions here :).
The friendly bacteria are attached to surfaces...gravel, rotating
contactors or whatever. With UV, the water is passing through it as
part of the recirculating system so the bacteria in the filter medium
isn't harmed in any way because it isn't exposed to the lamp. The
good bacteria are also aerobic...they need oxygen. If ozone levels were
extremely high, you may get a high enough residual after dosing to kill
the bacteria...but at proper dosing levels this doesn't happen.
Ozone is 03 where as oxygen is O2. It is very unstable...
that is how it works...the 3rd oxygen atom breaks off and "oxidizes"
or burns up the bad organisms (and other substances). You then have
O2 left...oxygen...which is beneficial for both fish and the good bacteria.
Any excess ozone breaks down very rapidly. The thing that makes ozone
popular in wastewater treatment is that besides sterilization, it has the
ability to breakdown many complex impurities as well...without producing
toxic byproducts (as chlorine produces trihalomethanes when exposed
to organic compounds...humic acids, etc.).
This is sort of a simple answer but I hope it helps.
mark
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| Message 9 |
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Subject: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED
From: Arlus Farnsworth
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 12:24:22 -0700
Here is a recipe I use, found on an aquaria message board:
corn and pea baby food
shrimp
spirulina
unflavored gelatin, partial strength (use less than full ratio listed on
box)
optional food coloring (some fish take certain colored foods more
readily)
These ingredients are expensive, but the formula could be made with
suitable bulk substitutes. Whip the mixture well to introduce air so it
will float. I layer the mixture 1/8 to 1/4 inch, depending on mouth size
and freeze it in sheets. I cube the food with a knife before feeding so
the less aggressive fish get a chance to fill up, but then I only have a
few fish (so far...) and I used to prep food at one time, so I am quick
with the knife and don't experience finger slicing anymore. For larger
scale maybe some sort of wire cheese type of cutter would be required.
The fish I feed are not vegetarian, and would not normally take a chunk
of food that was all veggie. They might nibble on aquatic vegetation,
but leafy vegetable would spoil before they got around to it.
Very young fish might require live food, egg yolk, decapsulated brine
shrimp egg, bring shrimp nauplii, microworms or other tiny aquatic
creatures.
What do you feed your smallest tilapia fry? Is there any variation to
your feed method of blending into half pea sized chunks and freezing in
mini ice cube trays (5% protein)? I seem to remember you said one male
and 3-6 female tilapia are moved to a breeding tank with hiding tubes
for the females and two caves (flowerpots) at either end for nests.
>
> Mick wrote:
>
> > Fry require a much higher percentage of protein than adults as is
> > evidenced in the fact they will cannibalize smaller fry if they don't
> > get the protein in their diet. Since I started making my own fry food,
> > I lose very few to cannibalism.
>
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| Message 10 |
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Subject: Seeds
From: Arlus Farnsworth
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 12:42:29 -0700
Here is an interesting link concerning the importance of seedstock.
http://www.ecologycenter.org/BASIL/basil.html
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| Message 11 |
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Subject: Re: Seeds
From: Mick
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:15:32 -0500
Arlus Farnsworth wrote:
>
> Here is an interesting link concerning the importance of seedstock.
> http://www.ecologycenter.org/BASIL/basil.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Great site.. thanks
Mick
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| Message 12 |
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Subject: Re: pfiesteria
From: Arlus Farnsworth
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 13:09:00 -0700
This might be good for UV:
http://www.resonance.on.ca/hpexcim.html
Mark Allen Wells wrote:
>
> I am not an alarmist in the least, but anyone working around fish
> should inform themselves about any pathogens that can do them or their
> families harm.
> pfiesteria piscicda is a bad actor and comes into play in water that has
> a lot of nutrients,like we might find in a closed system.
> www.mdsg.umd.edu/pfiesteria/
> www.pfiesteria.org/pfiesteria/pfiesteria.html
> www.epa.gov/owow/estuaries/pfiesteria/fact.html#6
>
> ----
> Robert,
>
> This is why our good (and very knowledgable) friend, Arlos was an advocate
> of things like UV and ozone in closed loop systems. Thanks for the links.
> Having worked in municipal wastewater treatment many years ago, I appreciate
> being reminded of the unseen potential dangers that we often overlook.
>
> Mark
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| Message 13 |
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Subject: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED
From: Mick
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:48:48 -0500
Arlus Farnsworth wrote:
What do you feed your smallest tilapia fry? Is there any variation to
your feed method of blending into half pea sized chunks and freezing in
mini ice cube trays (5% protein)? I seem to remember you said one male
and 3-6 female tilapia are moved to a breeding tank with hiding tubes
for the females and two caves (flowerpots) at either end for nests.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The females carrying live fry/larvae get moved to an isolation nursery
tank. If I move them too early, while in the egg state, the female
drops the eggs and doesn't always pick them all back up. If I move them
too late, she releases the live free swimming fry into the breeding tank
and it's a royal pain to catch them all and move them.
For the first day or so (assuming I've timed it properly) the free
swimming fry are consuming the rest of the egg sack and don't require
additional food. When they do start eating, they require microscopic
live food and I make a special recipe for the swim-up stage.
Fresh hatched brine shrimp blended with powdered spirulina, powdered
zooplankton and blood worms. I blend this type of food til liquid and
freeze.
I've read that fry require about 95% protein and that the protein
requirements lesson as the fish ages.. so I have four different diets
depending on the age of the fish being fed with my oldest growout fish
getting about 5% protein from non-plant sources.
The one exception is the breeding colonies. I've found they produce
better on a high protein diet containing occasional whole bloodworms.
Please remember that I am still a novice at all this. I've been doing
the fish portion of aquaponics for about a year now. All I can tell you
is what has worked for me. I, currently have more tilapia than my
family can eat and more fry than I have room to move to a growout tank
but that may very well be a fluke, as I've heard many many folks say not
to bother with breeding colonies and I certainly think it is the more
expensive route to go.
Mick
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| Message 14 |
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Subject: Re: comments & questions from a newbie lurker
From: Arlus Farnsworth
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:18:57 -0700
I have never done business with Ken, only a few recommendations. He has
a website to get information, that is the difference. His business is
easier to find. Many providers or hosts will try to charge extra for a
business web page, but if you are only presenting a few pages of
information, no online orders and only a few people a day actually look
at your web page, there is not a distinction between a personal page and
what you have in terms of cost for the providor, I would try to avoid
that fee. You can get free web pages from many sources, but they will
put a banner advertisement on your page.
Good point about local stock being more aclimitized to the local
conditions.
Mark Allen Wells wrote:
>
> hello Steve,
>
> I've never doubted the quality of ken's fish. What I am concerned about
> though is losses in fish transported over long distances. Besides my
> supplier, there are many who come through the area including a breeder
> from Iowa that is one of the largest in the country. He has his share of
> awards and I am sure his breeding stock is first rate. But every farmer
> I talked to told me to stay with our breeder. They had all tried these
> fish marketed as the best...and all had high losses do to either
> the fish being to stressed from all the travel or they were just not as
> hardy as the local fish. If you saw the old boy I get my fish from,
> you would know he doesn't care about awards...just good fish...lol.
> The best rabbits that I've ever had never came from "champion" stock....
> they came from an 78 year old farmer who had raised them for most of
> his life. I also feel good about keeping as much of the money that I
> spend right here as I can....no offense to out of state breeders...
> I just like helping my neighbors...it's what it's all about.
> There are very few states in this part of the country that don't have
> good breeders....(at least for hybrid bluegill, striped bass etc.)
>
> peace...
> mark
>
> ------
> Don't want to step on the other Mark's toes, but we have spoken before so I
> hope he doesn't mind.. Mark is very happy with the hybrid bluegills that he
> gets & that is wonderful. I thought about buying from his supplier. Because
> he is close...Indiana. But, by the time that I put in my travel time (gas,
> time, etc. not to mention the cost of the bluegill hybrids), I figured that
> I could buy from Ken's cheaper. I also asked Mark if his supplier had ever
> won any awards for a world class hybrid.
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| Message 15 |
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Subject: Re: interesting catalogue entry
From: Arlus Farnsworth
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:51:36 -0700
> it's great that this is becoming more mainstream in public education. It is
> interesting to see that this system uses a filter as well as the plants
> floating in the tank.
Yeah, the bacteria need a medium to grow on... to convert excreted
ammonia and solid waste components into nitrite and then nitrate.
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| Message 16 |
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Subject: Re: heat in tank
From: Arlus Farnsworth
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 16:40:21 -0700
stainless steel is the way to go for direct water contact... beverage
grade, or titanium for salt water.
Steven Medlock wrote:
>
> First thanks to Kris for the light info, I think I get it.
>
> Brent I think I have a clue on what you are doing can you help me with more
> detail and where you got the thermostat bulb thing. I will be running
> strait off my gas boiler. It sounds like you have a good plan. Thanks for
> the help.
> Steve(red)
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| Message 17 |
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Subject: Pacu in California
From: Teresa Blackwood
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:36:43 -0700
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C158B3.DA7B0490
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello to all. Our time researching is just about over and we are =
getting close to set up. Does anyone know where you can get a large =
amount of Pacu in California. It is much easier to deal w/Fish and Game =
when the fish are coming from w/in the state.
Thanks to all in advance, :)=20
Teresa
------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C158B3.DA7B0490
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello to all. Our time =
researching is=20
just about over and we are getting close to set up. =
Does anyone know=20
where you can get a large amount of Pacu in California. It is much =
easier=20
to deal w/Fish and Game when the fish are coming from w/in the=20
state.
Thanks to all in advance, :) =
Teresa
------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C158B3.DA7B0490--
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| Message 18 |
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Subject: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED
From: Arlus Farnsworth
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 17:04:14 -0700
You certainly have more skill than I, having not (yet) spawned any fry.
> Please remember that I am still a novice at all this. I've been doing
> the fish portion of aquaponics for about a year now. All I can tell you
> is what has worked for me. I, currently have more tilapia than my
> family can eat and more fry than I have room to move to a growout tank
> but that may very well be a fluke, as I've heard many many folks say not
> to bother with breeding colonies and I certainly think it is the more
> expensive route to go.
Mick wrote:
>
> Arlus Farnsworth wrote:
>
> What do you feed your smallest tilapia fry? Is there any variation to
> your feed method of blending into half pea sized chunks and freezing in
> mini ice cube trays (5% protein)? I seem to remember you said one male
> and 3-6 female tilapia are moved to a breeding tank with hiding tubes
> for the females and two caves (flowerpots) at either end for nests.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The females carrying live fry/larvae get moved to an isolation nursery
> tank. If I move them too early, while in the egg state, the female
> drops the eggs and doesn't always pick them all back up. If I move them
> too late, she releases the live free swimming fry into the breeding tank
> and it's a royal pain to catch them all and move them.
>
> For the first day or so (assuming I've timed it properly) the free
> swimming fry are consuming the rest of the egg sack and don't require
> additional food. When they do start eating, they require microscopic
> live food and I make a special recipe for the swim-up stage.
>
> Fresh hatched brine shrimp blended with powdered spirulina, powdered
> zooplankton and blood worms. I blend this type of food til liquid and
> freeze.
>
> I've read that fry require about 95% protein and that the protein
> requirements lesson as the fish ages.. so I have four different diets
> depending on the age of the fish being fed with my oldest growout fish
> getting about 5% protein from non-plant sources.
>
> The one exception is the breeding colonies. I've found they produce
> better on a high protein diet containing occasional whole bloodworms.
>
> Please remember that I am still a novice at all this. I've been doing
> the fish portion of aquaponics for about a year now. All I can tell you
> is what has worked for me. I, currently have more tilapia than my
> family can eat and more fry than I have room to move to a growout tank
> but that may very well be a fluke, as I've heard many many folks say not
> to bother with breeding colonies and I certainly think it is the more
> expensive route to go.
>
> Mick
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| Message 19 |
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Subject: Xenon Excimer Florescent
From: Arlus Farnsworth
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 17:10:17 -0700
Also, siemens has a xeradex product:
http://w4.siemens.de/FuI/en/archiv/zeitschrift/heft1_00/artikel08/index.html
The florescents are more efficient than other means of producing
ozone... but not very powerful. The xenon excimer bulbs are not as
efficient as specialized florescent technology, but do not contain any
mercury, have very even (flat) illumination, are brighter and last
longer. I don't see why it cannot be utilized directly on the water...
but then I'm not qualified to make that determination.
Arlus Farnsworth wrote:
>
> This might be good for UV:
> http://www.resonance.on.ca/hpexcim.html
>
> Mark Allen Wells wrote:
> >
> > I am not an alarmist in the least, but anyone working around fish
> > should inform themselves about any pathogens that can do them or their
> > families harm.
> > pfiesteria piscicda is a bad actor and comes into play in water that has
> > a lot of nutrients,like we might find in a closed system.
> > www.mdsg.umd.edu/pfiesteria/
> > www.pfiesteria.org/pfiesteria/pfiesteria.html
> > www.epa.gov/owow/estuaries/pfiesteria/fact.html#6
> >
> > ----
> > Robert,
> >
> > This is why our good (and very knowledgable) friend, Arlos was an advocate
> > of things like UV and ozone in closed loop systems. Thanks for the links.
> > Having worked in municipal wastewater treatment many years ago, I appreciate
> > being reminded of the unseen potential dangers that we often overlook.
> >
> > Mark
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| Message 20 |
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Subject: Re: Bed Media - Lava Rock
From: "PearceKlan"
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 17:18:26 -0700
I've used the red "decorative" lava rock , bought by the bag at lawn and
garden/ hardware stores. It worked perfectly in my containerized, constant
top feed system, but "by the bag" prices prohibit me from using it in my
up-coming growbed style system. Be sure to rinse thoroughly...
peace
Darren
----- Original Message -----
From: "NiCKEL"
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 7:58 PM
Subject: Bed Media - Lava Rock
> Has anyone had luck using lava rock for bed media?
>
> I am considering it as it is light and cheap.
>
> I know people use it for ground cover in gardens so im sure the plants
won't
> mind it. As long as it doesn't mess with water retention or the
> fish/bacteria I would assume all is well.
>
> Thanks
> -Geoff
>
>
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| Message 21 |
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Subject: Re: Bed Media - Lava Rock
From: "NiCKEL"
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 18:03:40 -0700
Thank you for the review.
Would you advise against purchasing the loose rock which is stored outside
in piles?
Thanks
-Geoff
> I've used the red "decorative" lava rock , bought by the bag at lawn and
> garden/ hardware stores. It worked perfectly in my containerized, constant
> top feed system, but "by the bag" prices prohibit me from using it in my
> up-coming growbed style system. Be sure to rinse thoroughly...
>
> peace
> Darren
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| Message 22 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Bed Media - Lava Rock
From: Arlus Farnsworth
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 19:56:31 -0700
All material is different, try a sample to evaluate before any
investment.
NiCKEL wrote:
>
> Thank you for the review.
>
> Would you advise against purchasing the loose rock which is stored outside
> in piles?
>
> Thanks
> -Geoff
>
> > I've used the red "decorative" lava rock , bought by the bag at lawn and
> > garden/ hardware stores. It worked perfectly in my containerized, constant
> > top feed system, but "by the bag" prices prohibit me from using it in my
> > up-coming growbed style system. Be sure to rinse thoroughly...
> >
> > peace
> > Darren
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| Message 23 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: interesting catalogue entry
From: Arlus Farnsworth
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 19:59:20 -0700
Quiz: where is the ammonia excreted from?
Answer: gills
Have a good weekend all.
Arlus Farnsworth wrote:
>
> > it's great that this is becoming more mainstream in public education. It is
> > interesting to see that this system uses a filter as well as the plants
> > floating in the tank.
>
> Yeah, the bacteria need a medium to grow on... to convert excreted
> ammonia and solid waste components into nitrite and then nitrate.
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 24 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: dead pacu
From: "Chris Jeppesen"
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 21:00:47 -0700
Well I've finally got my initiation. I have reworked my plumbing and made changes for better
reliability. I have changed my pumps if when the model I was useing proved unreliable.
the last time I worked on my south sump pump I failed to make sure it was resting flat on the
curbstone in the bottom of the sump. A small mouse got in that sump and pluged the pump intake,
dead fish galore.
If the pump had been flat on the cement under it the. mouse could not have plugged the intake.
But if my suction pipe in the fish tank would have had a couple little 3/16 inch holes about a
foot off the bottom the suction pump would have lost its prime and I would have been
inconvenienced but not dead fish. I've tried lolevel shut off switches and the shut down just
for the fun of it. Well the pacu are in the freezer. They were 3 inch fingerlings 90 day ago.
They weren't a uniform size and I don't have a scale but they where 5 to 6 and half inches long
and from 1 to two pounds in weight. thats impressive to me in 90 days.
This is not meant to discouage any one. I get discouaged and down for no reason at all but in
the face of real setbacks I laugh. I like these pacu and think they have great promise.
I have some questions I'll be asking as soon as I'm sure I reaaly understand the question.
Chris Jeppesen
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